01/08/15 01/08/15 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> the two men opened fire and killed two people, a journalists. the head of the newspaper, and a guest. according to a witness, one shooter shouted and affirmed you are avenging the profit for them. >> france is in a state of mourning after the deadly attack on the offices of the student terrible newspaper. massive manhunt underway. two different foreign brothers of algerian descent.

>> it was very shocking. islam never taught this. it is not about killing people. it is a great sin. >> today we will be joined by the leading european islamic scholar tariq ramadan, phyllis surprise winning cartoonist art spiegelman, the lebanese french academic and harper's magazine publisher rick macarthur. all of that and more coming up. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. france has declared a day of mourning as it continues a manhunt for two brothers wanted for killing 12 people at the satirical magazine. wednesday night, thousands of people took part. the attack killed several common cartoonists, including the

magazine's editor stephane charbonnier. use placed on al qaeda's most wanted list in 2013. the paper had come under threat and was firebombed in 2011 after publishing controversial caricatures of the prophet mohammed. in a televised address the french president hollande said the message of freedom of those killed will live on. >> this shooting of extreme violence killed 12 people and injured several more. really talented cartoonists courageous journalists are dead. they left their mark on generations through the influence and through the rare independence. i want to tell them that we will continue to defend this message. this message of freedom and their name. >> french authorities have identified the gunmen as cherif and said kouachi. police say the have located them

but it is unclear if there to tame. another suspect turned himself in on wednesday at a police station in northern france. the two brothers were known to french intelligence services. in 2008, cherif was sentenced to prison. at the time, kouachi told the court given motivated to travel to iraq by images of atrocities committed by u.s. troops at abu ghraib prison. our reports the two brothers, who were born in paris, returned from fighting in syria last summer. the remaining staff at charlie hebdo has announced he will continue to publish on schedule. we will have more on the charlie hebdo shootings after headlines. the third suspect to turn himself in says he is innocent. the pentagon says the u.s.-led coalition has dropped nearly 5000 bombs in over 1600 strikes on isis targets in syria and

iraq. the figures come as the u.s. has disclosed for the first time it is investigating several attacks that may have killed civilians. in washington, pentagon spokesperson john kirby repeated long-standing assertions that the u.s. doesn't conduct out accounts. kirby also said the program to train syrian rebels and allied countries could begin this spring. >> we look forward to the end of the year, getting up and going. i think if we continue to make the progress we're making now that we believe we could start conducting some training of modern opposition by early spring. we don't have the ability to count every knows that we shellac. number two, that is not the goal. that is not the goal. the less of these guys that are out there, certainly, that is the better. of the goal is to degrade and destroy their capabilities. and we're not getting into an

issue of body counts. >> the united nations has confirmed palestine will join the international criminal court. palestinian leaders applied to join the icc last week, vowing to seek the prosecution of israeli officials for war crimes in the occupied territories. a spokesperson for the u.n. general secretary ban ki-moon said palestine's membership in the icc will take effect april 1. >> relating to the accession of palestine to multilateral treaties in respect which the secretary-general is a depository including the rogue statutes of the international criminal court, can say in conformity with the relevant international rules, practice as a depository for the secretary-general has ascertain the instruments received were in proper form before accepting them for deposit. and he is informed all states concerned accordingly. >> palestinian move came after the u.s. and israel successfully

lobbied against a un security council measure calling for an end to the israeli occupation and the establishment of a palestinian state by 2017. in retaliation israel has halted the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenues needed to pay for palestinian salaries and public services. the u.s. has also opposed palestinian membership in the icc. in washington, stay to permit spokesperson jen sakae said the u.s. does not believe palestinians qualify to join the court. >> the united states does not believe the state of palestine qualifies as a sovereign state and is not believed it is eligible to receive the statute. plugs on top of israel's freezing of palestinian revenue, the obama administration has also threatened to retaliate against the palestinian authority by reviewing its $440 million in annual aid. the fbi has disclosed evidence is has ties north korea to the

hack on sony pictures. the cyberattack that to the release of tens of thousands of sony e-mails and files, and prompted the studio to change the release of a comedy depicting the assassination of north korean leader jim cong -- kim jong-un. speaking to the international conference on cyber security in new york, the fbi dirtor said the hackers had used north korean servers. >> with an e-mail threatening sony employees and would post online various statement explaining their work. and in nearly every case, they used proxy servers to disguise where they were coming from in sending those e-mails and posting those statements. but several times they commit either because they forgot or that a technical problem, they connected direct and we could see them. and we could see the ip addresses that were being used to post and send the e-mails were coming from ip addresses

that were exclusively used by the north koreans. >> the fbi director said he is seeking the declassification of further evidence. his comments come after security experts raised doubts about north korea's involvement. cuba has released more prisoners at part of its obligations from last month's historic restoration with ties with the united states. the obama administration has called on cuba to free a group of 53 people washington considers political prisoners. the state department spokesperson said the releases are underway ahead of new talks between u.s. and cuban officials later this month. >> they have already released some of the prisoners. we would like to see this completed in the near future. certainly, that is something we will continue to discuss. while we're still finalizing the agenda for the aggression talks we plan on discussing human rights issues directly with the cuban government as the migration and normalization talks in havana later this month, and that will surly be a

topic that continues to be a focus. >> the oil giant royal dutch shell has agreed to pay nearly 84 million dollars in compensation for a pair of oil spills in nigeria. the claimant say the 2008 spills devastated their small niger delta community with the leak of 500,000 barrels of oil. shall initially claim this bill was only a fraction of that size, but later acknowledged it could have been bigger. it is the largest ever out-of-court settlement for an oil spill in nigeria, but still much smaller than cases in other countries. in a statement, amnesty international said -- the fbi says a deliberate explosion outside the colorado office of the naacp may have been an act of domestic terrorism. in improvised explosive device

was detonated on the naacp buildings wall and colorado springs tuesday morning. a gasoline can was placed nearby, but did not ignite. and fbi spokesperson said the hate crime is among the potential motives. police have announced a person of interest in the case, a white male around the age of 40. the bombing of the naacp, the nation's oldest civil rights group, has received almost no attention in the corporate media. according to the website thinkprogress, a search of news coverage over close to 24 hour. through wednesday afternoon found just one mention on cnn while none on msnbc and fox news. msnbc's sharp today chris hasted cover the explosion on their programs and state evening. according to the naacp, the attack follows the shooting of a school bus that was traveling with a group's 120 mile protest march in missouri last month. three more women have come

forward to accuse the comedian bill cosby of drugging them and committing sexual assaults. appearing with two other alleged victims, the women said cosby raped her after drugging her the las vegas restroom. >> we left the restaurant. at the time we walked back to his dressing room, i was having problems walking. i felt disoriented and confused. i had never felt that way before. when we entered the dressing room, i sat on the couch and he started taking my pants down. i said, stop. but he didn't. >> nearly 30 women have accused cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting them in attacks dating back to the 1960's. cosby is facing at least two lawsuits over the allegations as well as an lapd investigation. and those are some of the headlines, this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. >> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world.

france has declared a day of mourning as a massive manhunt continues for two brothers suspected of killing 12 people at the satirical magazine charlie hebdo which had published controversial caricatures of the prophet mohammed. on wednesday night, thousands of people took part in vigils to condemn the attack on charlie hebdo. many held signs reading "je suis charlie" or "i am charlie." the attack killed several prominent cartoonists including magazine's editor stephane charbonnier who was better known as charb. he was placed on al qaeda's most wanted list in 2013. the paper had come under threat before and was firebombed in 2011. in a televised address to the nation the french president said those killed in the shooting would live on. >> this shooting of extreme violence killed 12 people and injured several more. really talented cartoonist courageous journalists are dead.

they left their mark on generations and generations of french people through their insolence, and through their rare independence. i want to tell them that we will continue to defend this message. this message of freedom, in their name. this attack killed two police officers, the same who are responsible for protecting charlie hebdo in the editorial staff of this newspaper who were threatened for years and defended freedom of expression. these men and women died for the idea they had of france. that is to say, freedom. today they are our heroes and that is why i have decreed that tomorrow will be a day of national mourning. at 12:00, there will be a moment of contemplation across public services and invite all the population to take heart in it. the flags will be half past three days. >> french authority is identified the gunmen as cherif and said kouachi. their whereabouts are unknown. an 18 ounce student turn himself in on wednesday at a police

station in northern france after he was publicly named as the third suspect. according to french tv reports he told police he is innocent. the two brothers were known to french intelligence services. in 2008 chérif kouachi was sentenced to three years in prison for his involvement in a network of sending volunteer fighters to iraq to fight alongside al-qaida. at the time kouachi told the court that he had been motivated to travel to iraq by images of atrocities committed by u.s. troops in abu ghraib prison. there are reports the two brothers, who were born in paris, returned from fighting in syria last summer. >> tension in paris heightened this morning when a policewoman was shot dead but it is unclear if the shooting was linked to yesterday's attack. french officials said several mosques have also been attacked over the past day. earlier today, the remaining staff at charlie hebdo announced it will continue publishing on schedule. in a statement they said -- "we have all decided, the journalists who survived and their ex-colleagues, that we are

going to have a meeting tomorrow to publish the next charlie hebdo, because there is no way even if they killed 10 of us that the newspaper won't be out next week." cork today we spend the rest of the hour on the charlie hebdo attack. later in the show we will he joined by the legendary cartoonist art spiegelman who won a pulitzer prize for his graphic novel "mouse" and a lebanese fridge academic gilbert achcar. we begin with scholar tariq ramadan, professor of contemporary islamic studies at oxford university, author of a number of influential books on islam and the west including "western muslims and the future of islam" and "in the footsteps of the prophet: lessons from the life of muhammad." ramadan was named by time magazine as one of the most important innovators of the 21st century. and here in new york is john "rick" macarthur is the publisher of harper's magazine. the magazine became one of the

first u.s. publications to reprint the danish cartoons of the prophet mohammed that sparked international protests. we begin with tariq ramadan. can you respond to what has taken place? the attack on the magazine and what has ensued over these last hours? >> thank you first, for giving me the time to respond to what we're listening to. i think we have to condemn what has happened and nothing can justify what happened in the killing of the cartoonists another police officer in france. what is important for us is to make it clear we stand by our principles. and while i was debating the journalists in france about the cartoons and the way they were coming to controversy about the

prophet, i made it clear from the beginning this is your freedom to do so. i don't think it is good, i don't think it is an intelligent and decent way to do with freedom of expression, but you need to be protected as to your right to do it. and i said to the muslims, in the states as well as everywhere come even in muslim majority countries, that we need to get it right. we're not going to convince our fellow human beings or fellow citizens that we are a religion of dignity and freedom and responsibility if we start by censorship. that is not the way it has to be, neither in the west nor in muslim majority countries. now the point is, we stick to our principles. there's a second principle of want to make clear. it is really for all of us. while we are shocked about what is happening in the west and the killing of cartoonists and

innocent people, we should stand also by the same principles when it comes to things that are happeninaround the world and muslim majority countries. the most important number of victims of violent extremism are in majority muslim countries. you have the government saying we are not counting the bodies were there dropping bombs on people, and then we are shocked by -- i think our principles should also be we stick to our principal innocence and the dignity of life is the same dignity and there is no difference. and the third thing that i would add to this is, we have to come together. in the west as western citizens and understand it is not a muslim business. we are not talking about these are murderers and it is only muslims who have to talk about

this. we have to come together to understand have a common enemy which is violent extremism and all of the reasons [indiscernible] nurturing this. we need to be consistent as to our condemnation of the consequences in our analysis of the causes and the principals. >>, you're the publisher of harper's and harper's magazine made it decision, one of the first publications to publish exits of the satanic verses of salman rushdie and also perhaps more controversially the cartoons from the danish newspaper in 2006. could you respond to what has happened now and how you feel this ought to be dealt with this issue of freedom of speech versus what some construe as

hate speech? >> this is a long-term fight. this goes on for centuries. we did this with rushdie. we took the heat. we love the counterattack, actually. we have been fighting this for a long time at harper's. we are not alone. but it is always a beleaguered minority that fights for freedom of expression, unfortunately and you hear in the responses to a lot of or by a lot of well-meaning people in the aftermath of this horrible horrible murder, these qualifications. well, we agree with the right to do it, but we disagree with the way it was done. as art is going to say, i think more articulately than i can later, the provocation itself is part of the discussion. if you can't have provocation you can't have an authentic discussion. the reason we publish the images was so art spiegelman could

critique them in front of an audience to explicate them and to give people a chance to draw their own conclusions in an intelligent way. if you can't show the images, you can't have the critique. you can't have the discussion. i am a little uneasy with the response of some of my well-meaning liberal under colleagues were condemning the killings who were at the same time sank in a well, i would not have done it that way. how else could you do it? "the new york times" today in their main story reproduced two images from charlie hebdo neither of which was one of the ones that offended the muslims. the second point want to make, which is essential, is that to say -- to back off and say, we don't want to offend muslim sensibilities, it is generalizing to the point of caricature of muslims. as of all muslims agreed this was offensive or offensive enough to merit murdering people.

when in fact, a vast -- the vast majority of muslims disapprove of this, think it is the wrong thing to do, think it is the wrong response, as did a lot of iranians at the time of the rushdie crisis. i am very close to the iranian world. i am very troubled by the response. i feel reinforced when i talked to my friends like art and the people who fight for these kinds of things over the long haul. >> tariq ramadan, when we spoke yesterday, just as all this news was breaking, you said you knew, is that right, the editor in chief of charlie hebdo? >> yes. yes, i knew him and i debated him i think in two tv programs in france. >> he was one of those killed. >> yes. i am sad about this. once again, straightaway, i send

a sympathy to the victim's families. this is something that is unacceptable. now, once again, the freedom of expression and the way we're dealing with this, it is a serious matter and we cannot just -- we cannot justify what was done. i was one of the first in the west taking a position [indiscernible] i am not supporting this. i think we have to come to this understanding. either way, if you look at the western muslims today, the great, great majority of the muslims, are quite clear on this, they're not supporting in any way even censorship. so there is a trend, which is very important now. what is problematic is sometimes some of the people don't know

the impact of what they're saying. dot on western muslims only, but muslims around the world, that are now using the frustration of western muslims bussing, look at the end of the day, make it as you want. be whoever you want. try to be invisible in the west. your targeted by people. i think we should be very clear of the double standards. there are things you can say but muslims today but you cannot say about jews. but if the clear, what we can't say about jews, which is anti-semitism, is completely wrong -- don't have the double standard. this is why said to the chief editor of charlie hebdo, what you're doing, said in french this interview of the people have no courage. you have a lack of current in the way you're behaving because you know who you're targeting.

my point is not your freedom of expression, it is the freedom that you have to target the people who are weak within your society and i don't think this is the right way of using your freedom of expression. you have the right to say whatever you want to say. intervals are principles, but this -- decency is also important. >> the important thing to remind you, again, well i did not sit at first, but in art spiegelman 's essay in our magazine, we made a point of including anti-semitic caricatures imagery, so that art can make the point that this all depends on whose ox is being gores. he takes the position -- >> speak for himself in one moment. >> that we are catholic in our approach to this, open-minded. we understand that as

journalists and writers and critics, we have to be able to take the worst offense ourselves in order to be able to justify on principal offenses committed against other people. my example is always the nazis marching, which is vastly worse more offensive to my sensibilities, then these caricatures of the prophet. but i stood up and so did a lot of other people for the right of free expression, so the nazis would be permitted to march in skokie, which is a place where a lot of holocaust survivors live. that is how seriously people like art and i take freedom of expression. >> can i ask your question about that? if you look at the situation in the west now if you're a citizen, as i am a citizen speaking about people citizenship and equal rights for each. can you feel the fact that there's a double standard, that there are things you can say in the west and things we cannot

say -- for example, this is also part of the frustration. so whatever you want about muslims, you can say. once again, i come to the principles. i will be the first to defend the right to say whatever you want to say. at the reaction, the emotional reaction is a selective reaction. it is not the same depending on what you're talking about. if you are targeted as anti-somatic, it is over for you. but when you're having islamophobia, that is fine. that is the normalization. and the problem is, it is not only coming from the far right party, the problem i have now to wherever you are, the demonstrations we had in germany recently, normalization in the political discourse of islam a phobic statements. don't you feel there is a double standard? don't you feel we're talking about freedom of expression targeting muslims more than others? this is at least the feeling of

western muslims. you cannot just drop it and dismiss it as if it is not existing. >> i'm an comfortable with the expression of the feeling of western muslims. again, i fear generalization. as to what specific muslims are saying what newspapers are saying. but of course, there are double standards. >> [indiscernible] >> there are double standards all over the place, but that doesn't change the point i'm trying to make. we should be striving to defend the most extreme examples of satire and provocation as a matter of principle, and not apply double standard. of course, as i said i was more offended or i am more of an a by nazis marching in skokie then by the prophet mohammed being satirized inh. but it doesn't change my commitment to defending both forms of provocation as a matter principle. it doesn't mean i approve of

them. i'm just nervous about people starting to slack and phil and say, look, if you would have done it in a nicer way, it would have been acceptable, or less offensive way. how do you address these questions? you can't. >> at the end of the day, i agree with you on the principles. we are leading [indiscernible] i understand you cannot generalize on feeling, and you're right. but still, the only statement you made right now saying, of course there are double standards. it is the "of course" that is problematic. we have to stand together. not only by principles and right, we also have to deal with feelings, sensibility. this has to be built on a responsible way. i don't think it is just, oh, i should be able to say whatever i say. sometimes you have the right to

say silly things, but silly things in times of controversy and tension, it is not the way forward. yes, the right to freedom of expression but the right to freedom of expression should also be the responsible way of using it. it is not -- it is about human dignity. >> if i could quickly interrupt you, because to say at the end the political question here we are not dealing with, which i keep trying to deal with while separating it from the principle of freedom of expression and that is, yes, there is a huge western violent western presence in the middle east and in the arab world that did not exist 25 years ago. when we send troops to saudi arabia before the first gulf war, we tore something in the muslim world. we outraged people. at this is a political question that you should also be talking about. the american army is sending

troops to holy soil in saudi arabia. it is a different issue and different propagation from a french magazine publishing satires of the prophet mohammed. people don't begin to make the connections or discuss the political context of the western presence in the middle east, the military presence, i think we're going to have a hard time getting around this roadblock. >> i really -- i really agree with you on this. it is essential for us as westerners and western muslims should be involved in a discussion. we cannot stop looking at the big picture. western governments are dealing with dictatorships, that is the big picture. and by being silent about freedom about dignity and even supporting regimes where there is no freedom of expression, and this is the right point to make, but this is part of the whole

discussion. you and me as westerners from the united states, we have to be clear, we're not going to defeat anything which has to do with violent extremism -- justice, freedom -- the real reformist approach and the muslim majority countries. what is happening today is the opposite. we have the worst dictatorships. saying, now, apologize for the consequences of what is happening. we should stand to principles, but we cannot apply talking about the big picture in a political one is essential. >> we have to leave and rick macarthur will be leaving us publisher of harper's magazine. he's the author of "second front: censorship and propaganda in the gulf war." published the danish cartoons as well as the excerpts of's attendant versus the satanic

verses against someone resting. he will be replaced by art spiegelman cartoonist, editor, comments advocate, best known for his graphic novel "mouse." we will also be joined by gilbert achcar, professor at the school of oriental and african studies at the university of london, and tariq ramadan will stay with us. we are back in a minute. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. >> i want to turn to stephane charbonnier, the editor of the french magazine, charlie hebdo. he was among the 12 who were killed on wednesday. in 2012, charbonnier appeared on al jazeera and defended his publication's decision to

publish cartoons of the prophet muhammad. >> it has been 20 years i am part of this newspaper. 20 years we have "been provocative" on different subjects. it so happens every time we do with radical islam, we have a problem and we get indignant a violent reactions. we're in a country in the rule of law. we respect french law. we haven't infringed french law. we have the right to use our freedom as we understand it. >> that was stephane charbonnier, the editor of the french magazine, charlie hebdo. we're joined by art spiegelman. in 1992, he won a pulitzer prize for "mouse" and he founded the comics magazine.

in 2005, named one of the most 100 and 20 people by time magazine. could i begin by asking you to situate this magazine charlie hebdo? how did they fit into the broader public sphere in france? >> and why are they called charlie hebdo. >> they have been called -- a satirical magazine in the 1960's, way up to the wonderfully put a thick french like a national lampoon -- wonderfully lunatic fringe like national lampoon. some of the brought up the analogy, south park. south park is closer to the spirit of charlie hebdo than anything else in american culture. and that to say their provocative is to say their mission statement. ahri kari had a subtitle, "mean

and nasty to her co-their point was not to afflict the afflicted, as was just coming up from esther ramada as i do that then muslims are outsiders and have no world power in france, therefore, they were subject to these cartoon attacks. quite the contrary. the reason a change their name was the magazine published an anti-charles degaulle cartoon the minute after his death. it was kind of -- charles de gaulle was france. this was beyond whatever mourn ing america with eurozone conniption fit when ronald reagan died, even npr was off and sink defying. charles de gaulle, he died a week after horrible fire in the

discotheque in the small town in france in which 20 people are so died. the headlines over france were whatever town it was, tragedy and whatever town it was, 20 dead. the next week charles de gaulle dies and the cover of the magazine's "tragedy in paris one dead." keeping these people equivalent. that enraged france so much that that magazine was muzzled and censored and unable to come out the week after. the week after that they said, no problem, we will change the name. from what i understand, and the magazine i know, did reprint peanuts at a time when it seemed interesting to do in the late 1960's in france. ok, if we are charlie hebdo we're out of here. exactly the same magazine, new title. >> and the name charlie? >> i believe it came from charlie brown. maybe they had that in mind. >> not charles de gaulle?

>> i'm sorry, that is what you set off the air. that seems like a possible explanation. the magazine i know always had peanuts in it. i believe it could've come from either. the point it was most important about it was, the relentlessness of them taking on whatever targets came into view. when we talk about provocation the biggest provocation was putting salman rushdie, the riots, the jeff's that happened all over -- deaths that happen over the world after the cartoons were published and were intended as a provocation in a different way than the one engaged in by charlie. there provocation really was afflicting a minority in their culture. wallpapered over by, well, we have to have the right to portray mohammed in our secular country, but the reasons for

doing it had more to do with the "other." >> why do you make the argument -- that is what you wrote in the harpers piece in 2006 in the case of the danish cartoons, it was, you know, afflicting the afflicted in denmark, whereas in france, with these cartoons and what charlie hebdo does, you don't think it is the same. how do you compare the two publications? >> the mission was to be conservative right newspaper. charlie was not to be left wing, necessarily, their mission is to rent against all authority. they're asking for radical kind of freedom we don't get an america very often. that is why south park may be closer. it is one place i tried to show the prophet mohammed right after the problems that came from the danish cartoons, but they did it

because there were told not to. this is like the great adolescent impulse. it is not a sophisticated dialect about freedom of speech. we must have freedom of speech to be up to do what we do. as a society and culture. after every religion possible. there opportunity to famers. politically, they have gone after both sides. hold back on their side of the ledger, let's say, politically and yet the cover is mocking him that was out the week this all happen. >> can ask it respond what tariq ramadan said earlier about saying things public about muslims but not others, jews for instance? >> there's a touchiness of jews that they were collaborators and

world war ii. it makes a guilty or conscience there. nevertheless, i remember when the mass graves were found covered --charlie hebdo covered it. it is really a magazine trying to afflict the afflicted. it is a magazine just trying to afflict. tried to take full advantage of the ability to stir things up. in a world where everything is stirred up, i have heard all of these discussions about, no, no we west. stir things up -- we must oster things up. was supposedly in our culture clash of civilizations, we're not trying to find a culture that is so repressed that it cannot function, but one we have to look at various issues and various points of view. what is interesting to me is how great cartoons are at doing that. it puts things in a high relief. you can see them.

you can surround them with lots of words trying to contain them. the images cut past that. they move so directly into your brain, that there is no place to avoid them. they are in there. then you try to put this salve around them, which is language. it takes 10,000 words because pictures keep leaking out in ways that weren't intended even by the artist making it, but are thereby functional or functioning as tests for what actually are we living through right now. it does it in a way that is so high relief that you can avoid it. that allows us to have hopefully, more language, more pictures, until these things also. the idea isn't to turn into kalashnikovs. i don't think that was charb's doalgoal. >> do you think art, there's

the principle of what is called hate speech. do you think that can never apply to cartoons? >> it does and it has. even in france -- my friends wife and i debate this all the time because i come along with rick, was going, man, the skokie thing really stinks, marching on a small town outside chicago that had a large holocaust surviving population having the nazis in america choose that place as a place to entertain their own rights of free speech was a dismal thing to do. yet, ok, that is the line and we have to live by that line. i have to live with anti-semitics. i think it is part parcel. i think "maus" function s as the counter -- >> in a nutshell, a description

of "maysus"? >> it is a narrative about my mother and father's experience as jews in poland and that passed down to me as a story and he tried understand that sry as a cartoonist i giving visual shape. the visual shape involved borrowing and testament care errors -- anti-semitic characters viewing jews sometimes right like mice, the germans are portrayed as cats because i grew up with "tom and jerry" cartoons. the poles were pretrade as pigs. except for the cats, these were defamatory caricatures by definition whin the portion of the book, i understood these animals stand upright -- i insisted these animals stand upright. pretrade is behaving incredibly well.

these things are per trade even visibly in the course of the book as [indiscernible] masks of animals that are reducing people to the racial and ethnic, national stereotypes and within that, there are as poor humans acting the way we act and in some cases, jewish policeman behaving rather badly poles behaving rather welcome even a german with a conscience that came up in a story while still portrayed in his nazi cat uniform. >> tariq ramadan when you listen to art spiegelman, your thoughts? >> i can agree with him on the way he is describing charlie hebdo. he is talking about hari kari before charlie hebdo became what it is now. why don't you say in 2008 that one of the cartoonists was fired because he dared say something about connecting this to the son of sarkozy and making a joke about the fact he was a jew.

give me one example over the last two years, for example, coming from charlie hebdo targeting anotherommunity other an the muslim community. we know it is easy. just to be clear, they had financial problems and his controversies and ongoing controversies, they were making some money out of it. i am not saying this as somebody who is outside. this was said by many, my people saying they are going to far with the targets. so to tell me today they were courageous, no, don't talk about -- >> after their offices were firebombed, i think all bets are off in terms of discourse. at that point, they were mandated -- >> in the last six years -- >> i don't read charlie hebdoi n't read french that well, so kelly look at the pictures -- >> [indiscernible] >>county, why did they fire

somebody and the question was, freedom of expression. the response was what? no, there are limits to freedom of expression. this was six years ago. you are telling me -- >> that is why he is not head of charlie anymore. talks that is the point. the president gave him the direction. if you look at the dynamic. the point is for us to say, if this is your take on equal treatment, we have to assess the facts, not on the past -- >> i agree that it is more seemly when the power and poise of cartoons are directed at the powerful. and that is the point was making in the harpers piece that came up before. and yet speaking of making money and whatever, stopping -- stomping on the impulses cheerfully went on and did start

his own counter magazine that has been functioning right up into that point, functioning quite well. larger society, there is room for your muslim anti-semitic cartoons, french anti-semitic cartoons, as well as others -- >> no, no, we're not talking about that. we're not talking about the right -- >> we're talking about charlie hebdo. >> we're talking about a policy that was set by charlie hebdo over the last two years mainly targeting the muslims -- >> why were they targeting the muslims? >> you know why? you know what? it may be a question of money. they went bankrupt. you know this. they went bankrupt and what they did was to target muslims to make money. it has nothing to do with courage. it has to do with making money and targeting the marginalized people in society. the point now is just to come with you as someone involved with this and cover the

principles you are making now. look, now come in the united states of america as well as in the west everywhere, we should be able to target the people the same way and then to find a way to talk one another and responsible way, not by -- [indiscernible] i think what you're saying now could be dangerous if you're not coming to the fact that just leaves the impression the past similar to the present. charlie hebdo is not the satirical magazine of the past. it is ideologically oriented. [indiscernible] don't come with something that is politically, completely not accurate. >> focus on the muslims really had to do with the riots about the original cartoons. it was the responsibility to show those cartoons. they rose to that occasion admirably. if you tell a provocateur, be quiet, be nice, it doesn't work

that well if their mandate is to be provocateurs, which is why they went and created a magazine to do whatever talks in seattle express. i don't argue the cartoons aren't toxic. i do argue that talks in as a necessary part of an ecosystem. charlie filled that come even though i don't -- you probably know it a lot better than i do over the last two years. >> we have to take a break and we're going to bring back with us, in addition to tariq ramadan and art spiegelman we will bring in gilbert achcar. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. the french newspaper has just published a horrific photographs of the insides of the magazine office of charlie hebdo, covered in blood. >> we're joined now by gilbert achcar, professor at the school of oriental and african studies -- or soas at the university of london. his most recent books are "marxism, orientalism, cosmopolitanism" and "the people

want: a radical exploration of the arab uprising." welcome to democracy now! i would like to begin by asking you about your response to the facts that all the suspects so far identified in this attack yesterday appeared to have been french citizens. could you talk about the position of muslim communities in france and your response to what happened yesterday in the news about these suspects? >> well, i think in france or elsewhere in western countries obviously, europe, the communities of migrant background, especially when they come from muslim majority countries are subject to forms of racism and various forms of discrimination and oppression which are the breeding ground for the kind of hatred in response to the societal hatred that you just mentioned. and so it is -- i mean, it is

not surprising in this way. more generally, i would say this is also part of general dynamics created by facts that were mentioned during the discussion previously here with you, that the western intervention, the western action in the middle east has been creating the ground for all of this. and this is what i called previously the clash of barbarisms. especially by the united states conduct in this region. provoking a counter barbarism which is minor compared to the major one, but which is ever less, a barbarism -- but which is nevertheless, a barbarism. this is a clash of barbarisms. even if we think [indiscernible]

this action, which is shocking and appalling killing for religious reasons, is far beyond the islamic phobic murder of over 75 people and i can't remember the figure, but something like in the hundreds. and beyond the ultra-zionist extremist who killed over 29 people in 1994 in palestine. we have to put all of this in context and understand the appalling features come from somewhere, and this somewhere before everything, the action of the west, the responsibility of

the west, and also the responsibility of the west and the u.s., in particular, in fostering the source, the ideological source of the most fanatical interpretation of islam that is the saudi kingdom. the saudi kingdom, the u.s. has been the godfather of the saudi kingdom practically since its inception or since let's say 10 years after it came to existence. with the discovery of oil in the country. this country has been oldest most ancient ally of the united states in that part of the world, much, much older than israel or england. a lot of connections and a lot of economic advantage being taken by the united states from the connection with this kingdom, which is based on the worst possible into rotation of

islam. so just imagine you had -- >> on that, we have to end. we will get a comment from you after the show is posted online, gilbert achcar, professor at the school of oriental and african studies -- or soas at the i'm a bit of a romantic at heart and this programme is all about th e food i think is suitable for a romantic occ asion, whether it's a first serious date or even a 20th wedding annive rsary.

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