>> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy, and its global healthcare consulting business unit, hillco health, and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm evan smith, he's a senior media correspondent for cnn and host of the network's weekly reliable sources program. his first book, top of the morning, inside the world of morning tv published in 2013 was a new york times best seller. he's brian stelter, this is overheard. >> actually, they're not two

sides to every issue >> i guess we can't fire him now >> i guess we can't fire him now. it would be nice that i win an emmy >> being on the supreme court was an improbable dream. it's hard work and it's controversial. >> without information, there's no freedom and it's journalist who provide that information >> window rolls down and this guy says, hey, he goes until 11:00. >> brian stelter, welcome >> thank you >> nice to see you >> thank you >> and congratulations on what i guess is not really a recent job switch >> it feels very recent >> you've been there a while. people may say he left the times to go to cable to go to cnn because he wanted to be on tv. you say that's not really what that's about >> no, i understand that part of view and a little part of me was interested in learning how television works from the inside. even when i was growing up, i was interested in being on television. i would practice -- pretend to

be a television anchor in the basement >> right >> but i fell in love with, a, the written word, and, b, with print. and the new york times was the perfect place for me after i graduated to learn more of that, to do more of that >> so you spent about five, six years -- >> yeah, closer to six >> closer to six years >> miraculous moment to be hired by the times right out of college >> yeah >> after blogging -- >> you were not a typical college student, clearly >> i was a big dork in college, created my own blog >> your word >> definitely my word. and blogged my way through college about tv, about tv news and the times hired me basically to keep blogging, although i gravitated toward the print paper. being on the front page of the new york times is unlike anything else >> it would be the place you wanted to land at the end, not spring board to go do something else >> that's right. that's right, although i'm glad the times took a chance on me >> yeah >> and has taken a chance on a

lot of younger people at the earlier part of our careers >> yep >> because as much as i learned from them, they also learned a little bit from me about technology >> and they knew that they were going to >> i think so >> they made a bet on you, and i think they said at the time, we need a guy that's going to come in and give us a window to this new world >> right. and in one practical small example of how that helped me and the institution, when twitter gets invented and when journalists want to learn how to start using twit 2er, someone like me is going to jump in and start playing with it. >> they had a policy, don't be stupid. experiment but don't be stupid >> yeah >> there was probably a couple times i was a little stupid and it helped us figure out how to use twitter as a journalist >> right >> when cnn came calling, so to speak, what was most appealing to me was to have a chance to figure out how to use television and the web together, how to be a reporter -- >> right

>> -- all day every day and to have a program on the weekend about media. so i'm really interested in making those two things work together. >> i want to talk about your view of the media, because obviously this is the sand box in which you play all the time. but i want to ask you first ability quns. did you have any -- cnn. did you have any reservations about going to cnn specifically >> cnn seems to have a brand problem right now. would you acknowledge that? >> i would call it a ratings problem, perhaps. what would be the brant problem be >> a lot of people don't know what cnn's about. maybe that's a good thing f you compare cnn to msnnbc, that's -- >> there were some people, i'm not telling you something you haven't heard, that cnn has kind of an identity problem, what's cnn really about. maybe that's an unfair characterization >> the reason i go to the term of a rating problem is there's this perception in the marketplace that cnn is lower rated than fox news and msnbc.

that's somewhat true. if you look at the prime time race between those three networks, that's a very small but important window into what's going on, and that's in part because those two channels have moved over to political poll that's are very, very effective >> right >> by the way, i love flipping back and forth between those two channels. i learn a lot. between kelly and rachel, i get two very different views of the world and i learn from both of those. i'm glad they both exist >> right >> i'm also glad cnn exist. for the same reason -- i'm going to date myself here when i was in high school and the teacher was told something was happening in the new york, what channel was cnn on. i being the dork, i new what channel it was on. >> so cnn's grand proposition is what? >> to be there for those stories, to be there for breaking news and to be there in

a nonpartisan way unlike other cable news channel and unlike what other that passes for news on the internet, too. that has been the challenge for cnn ever since it was founded in the 1980s >> so jeff zucker, the legendary nbc news posh sha has now come in overcnn and he's attempting to turn this enormous steamship in a direction that points north or points towards the future. so if you were covering zucker and covering cnn for the times, not an employee of cnn, what would you be writing about? >> i recently went back and read my clips about cnn before i came on board. i have to admit, i was proud of the clips. there were skeptical stories about cnn in there that i had forgotten about. there was a line that i had written in 2012, i think it was, basically said cnn is like an emergency room, and just like an emergency room, you want it to be there but you might not want

to spend a lot of time there unless you want to. that's a way to maybe explain that cnn brand problem when it comes to that. people need it to be there, but don't always come the rest of the time. so he's trying to add more teens programming, they're adding more documentaries, you can see them trying -- i'm looking at it as an outsider, you see them adding more programs that are broadening the definition of news as jeff likes to say. i look at cnn and i think it's one of the world's great brands, not just media brands, i mean google, pepsi, coke, it's one of those great world brands because it's so good at gathering the news. it does have rating challenges on the days that news is not as engaging to people. i think we're going to see him harness this in his second year as executive. i think the program i do, maybe get in my plug here, it covers the media, so it doesn't just do breaking news, it covers how the

media covers the world >> yeah >> that's the kind of thing that cnn should and is able to do that's not just breaking news, you know, so i think -- and lots of programs like that. there's a program that comes before mind on sunday morning is a great example on not being dependent on breaking news but in bringing people together for conversation about the global public square >> you are an individual brand associated with the content you cover, and in some ways if cnn is gravitating more individual brands like you and others that,'s probably a sign of an emerging part of the -- >> i do. probably the classic example in the last two years of what cnn's trying to do differently. >> yeah >> but online cnn has this power house destination for breaking news and for news coverage >> it's where you'd go >> and it's in part because news organizations have been so vibrant online that what you think of as the stereo typical television newscast of what happened today is out there. >> and, in fact, while a lot of

traditional news organizations, nonbroadcast news organizations are now getting into video in a big way >> right >> what cnn has been about all along >> that should be thepri for cnn, abc, all of the broadcasting cable news networkers >> : right >> i think they generally are, but should be the leaders in online video as well >> you are hosting a program that is about the media, that is a niche topic. not everybody in the whole world is going to be interested in the material interested so the show can generate ratings. >> it's the most meta program on cnn for sre. i'm learning how to do that, i'm learning how to make it relatable to my mom and my brothers, and to the people i imagine at home who i'm trying to convince to watch. i think we do that partly by explaining, setimes explicly, whyt mattered to them i had a segment recently -- i

spent a good chunk of a week trying to figure out what happened with these -- this alleged commercials about medical marijuana. there was this press release that went out on the internet on monday morning that said our company is about to start broadcasting an add for medical marijuana to help you find a doctor for it. it seemed a little too good to be true to me, it seemed a little fishy, but i saw so many news outlets picking it up as fact, time magazine and even cbc in canada, it was this story that spread so quickly, and yet the the ads never actually aired. they never actually aired on television. to me, that is a perfect topic for a reliable source of topic. first of all, my viewers probably saw those headlines, they were probably misled just like everybody else >> yeah >> and for us to figure out what went wrong, why did that story get so much attention, even though it's clearly untrue >> yeah >> that's the kind of thing i can show people why it matters to them. a small example, but it was one that intrigued me because websites these days are so quick

to react to something they think is going to get television newscast or the same thing, reacting to something that's going to get ratings >> yeah >> and in a case like this, there isn't even basic checking to be done to verify something ahead of time >> and on the topic of reliable sources, the reality there's so much media, so many websites >> : there are so many unreliable >> the average person can be forgiven for finding information on a website and thinking it must be true, i read it, right? >> i think that's a challenge that's only going to become more real >> greater challenge today than it was five years ago >> yes. and i would exact, unfortunately, it will be more of a challenge in five years which put people like me in a position of helping explain how those things go wrong >> at the end of the day, the brand n be a signal to somebody tt this is credible, that this brand over here we don't know maybe not so much >> people do and should have higher standards for the cnn and

the new york times of the world. and as employees of those places, we've got to help keep those at the top >> stay there. how do you think the new york times of the world and the big media brand that's presume to have a leadership or play leadershipole and are em beaud with all this credibility, how do you think they're doing? do you think the media is presenting facts rebliebly, doing a good job. is big journalism these days operating properly, do you think? >> i think we're in a media environment that's better than ever, if you have the tools to find it and sor through it. there's -- there are -- >> do you think good work is being done >> it's -- yeah. there's so much good work being done in so many places. >> yeah. >> and where i -- where my mind goes is how to find it. how to market it, how to help people know it's there. >> yep. >> because there's also so much shoddy work being done, there's also so much sensational content out there and so many

distractions out there. and to the extent that we need hel and guidance in media literacy to find the more reliable and more helpful information, i think that's where i find a big challenge to be most -- >> is the burden on the news organizations to put themselves in front of more people or to distinguish them selfs from the bad actors >> to the notion that journalists need to be better marketers, better self promote teres >> yeah >> and we've been taught some early lessons in that through twitter and facebook, through social media. >> right >> i think journalists are getting to be better marketers, we're learning how to write better headlines >> but the journalists have gotten to be better markets. we had a conversation about individual brands versus institutional brands. individual brands like you, like your current colleague anderson cooper, like a bunch of the individual brands at msnbc or at fox, they have figured out how

to use their individual brands to get the word out about the work they're doing, but the institutional brands behind them don't seem to be as good as the people >> i think that's generally crew. but the individual brands may end up mattering more. i mean, i think the institutions are incredibly important. i'm not one of those people that believes it's all about the personality and the personal brands at all. i you can't be at the new york times for six years and believe otherwise. but i do think people want to connect to people, people want to relate to people. and if i -- i think i have a better chance of getting people's attention with a personally -- you know, with a handwritten message, so to speak, than with the megaphone that's used by institutions >> the world we're in >> yeah >> we have witnessed oar the last 10 years, and i go back to you saying you were in high school at the time of 9/11, which now makes me feel really old >> 11th grade >> on 9/11, wow. we have seen both a revolution

and an evolution in the media business. do you think that the media business generally speaking today is in a healthy place today compared to where it was 10 years ago >> i think the media business is so big that it would be hard to say, but when i look at certain segments, and i think that certain is segments are certainly healthier than they were today. some of the newspapers are finding a way through the fire better than others. the new york times description model has surprised me for example >> it's really succeeded, hasn't it >> when they announced they're going to start charging subscriptions to the website and restricting websites to nonsubscri brers, i was very nervous. at one time i thought i was going to be leaving the place because i would be cut off from my audience. but it didn't happen. if you're a nonsubscriber, you can still read 10 articles a

month or something like that. it meant that we have decreased our dependence on subscribers, reduced our dependence on advertisers. it's been a beautiful model >> other newspapers are having a much harder time putting those kind of models in the place >> is it because the walls are not porous >> partly. i think the times is one of those global brands that may be an exception to the rules otherwise exist. >> right. >> television business is clearly healthier than it was 10 years ago. there's more channels and there's more profits than there have been before, but if you're talking about local television, that's a very different story if you're talking about national cable or television >> you wrote an article about morning tv >> do you think morning television now is healthy enough to continue at the pace it's been going? >> i think people when they wake up want a couple things. one is that they want companion ship, and television

>> they want companionship, >> companionship that,'s what it provides. it provides background noise when you're getting dress. i think people also want in the morning, they want a certain amount of information, they want to be reassured about the world, they want to be reassured they're safe and their loved ones are safe, and the morning shows provide that. but so does your cell phone, so does your tablet >> so does twitter >> yes. and that is the -- the challenge i think for these morning shows. they're going to provide companionship better than twitter can sh but they can't provide the headlines bet ther than twitter can >> are they leaning into the changes in the modern world so that they're meeting some of these other platforms where they exist, or are they saying, you know what? they're going to go that way, how we're going to differentiate ourselves is by being a familiar presence in a changing world >> they are still largely just television shows although they've attempted certain online extensions there. primarily just television shows. some of the experiments i've seen on the local level, for

example there are a number of local stations now that will have their own branded alarm clock apps so instead of waking up with appal apps, a live stream and their broadcast, and by doing that, you are ensuring as people wake up with their phones they're also waking up with their local affiliate or their local show >> the course of time you spent reporting top of the morning, made you feel more hopeful or less hopeful about this particular institution, the morning program? >> it probably i think it made my more hopeful. i'm stumbling over the word hopeful because i'm not necessarily rooting for them to exist the way they exist today. they are -- you know, if i were -- in my fantasy world, those shows would include more news and less entertainment. in my fantasy world -- and by the way cnn and nbc do that

>> they're reacting to the viewers >> the viewers vote every single day, like it or not, the viewers vote every single day for what they want when they wake up. and the lesson the networks have taken away for "good morning, america" is a an entertaining show for a lot of people. now, i'm really glad cbs does exist. they've always been in third place, but they're doing a harder-edged newscast. it's growing, it is attracting new viewers in the morning. i'm glad it exist because people should have a lot of option. >> the fact is, you also have msnbc with the morning program which is attracting a lot of audiences. >> they get, you know, maybe one out of 10 today show viewers. they are a niche show, but they like it that way. that's the point of morning shows, is it a show for the northeast corridor, it's a show for the peach whole are aligned with the northeast corridor, who think that way, and that is success in cable news >> : now, have the nightly news

program faired as well in this modern world as you described the morning shows. we all tend to den great or dismiss the nightly news program as a ves taj of the earlier era, nobody's actually home early enough to watch those programs, who's watching it, does anybody really care who the anchor is any more, it's no longer the days of cron kite and peter jennings and -- >> i wonder if when cronkite was on, it's only ad good as -- >> i know for a fact dan rather did. >> yeah. >> the ratings, if you look at the 30-year trends of the nightly new, it is a clear steady downwar slope, if you soon in a little closer, you see a plateau has happened. and if you zoom in even closer, there was an up year recently. i think those shows have found a pretty steady place to live. they combine reach about

23 million viewers a night, sometime as little more, sometimes a little less, which is a solid number with a country with 100 channels with 500 channels and 5,000 websites or whatever the numbers are >> and much bigger numbers, even at the low ebb, bigger than the cable programs >> that's right. partly, these shows are older. and the advertising for those shows as well. but they are still the nation's newscast of ror. and i'm -- record. and i'm glad we still have newscast of record >> are they breaking much news themselves >> once in a while. once in a while. >> yeah. >> for the most part, i think whenever we see news broken, even by the major networks, we see them do it online. and if there's a critique of television that i subscribed to when i was at the times and which i still subscribed the to is we don't see enough original reporting done by television networks >> right. because? >> i think there are probably a

lot of reasons. one reason is that they depend on the associated press and on those companies television feeds for content, and that there are -- you know, maybe sometimes there are good reasons not to have 10 camera crews at a press conference, you can get the pictures from a pool feed. what we could use more from in television are reporters on the ground in different places. the cliché of this is the bureau. it's a cliché for a reason. it's a shame that there isn't more coverage now out of afghanistan, for example, from television networks. it's been true for as long as i've been writing about television. and there are financial factors at work there, but also it's not literally ratings factor, but there is a perception that viewers aren't as interested in those stories >> right >> well, in fact it's not a problem in broadcast, across the media a coverage of foreign news isn't. >> right. and there are -- and so that's

why i come back to -- >> and response from the audience, in theory >> -- my reaction to the question, we're in a better media climate if you know where to sphiend it. it requires more proactiveness on the part of the consumer than it used to, and that may not be a good thing >> we have about two minutes left. i want to put on your prognosticate or had looking for -- who are the people now doing work on television or in the media, and i'll help you with the first one, who you think are doing it right and actually roll forward to be the stars of the next 10 to 15 years. which talked about jake tapper before we came out here. jake tapper who has become a pretty good tv personality in the time he's been doing it is also still doing a fair amount of reporting. he's a guy that's actually breaking news. >> right. so you're talking just in television or on the web as well >> you tick. tapper would be something you'd put your money on, the tapper square, potentially. >> well, what i respect and

admire about jake tapper, and when i was describing in the context of what i hope to do in my program as well, he's doing reporting and he's also anchoring a program >> yeah >> and i like that he's showing that you can do both. >> yeah. i think on msnbc, a rival cable news channel i suppose steve cornacki has consistently broken news in the chris christie scandal. >> it helps to be in new jersey >> it does. and it helps to be a former reporter who new some of the players >> : what appeals to me and what i've been able to do a few time, be writing for the web but continue to be a reporter that continues to write stories, like i did at the new york times and then to bring those onto television on my show. it can work the other way as well. you can have a television interview and write a web story based on the interview that in some cases may get more readers than the television show did

>> right >> in both cases, you're able to reach more people and report as well as anchor, and that, to me, is something that, a, i'm hoping to do. and, b, i'm happy that the others do. and i think those are two examples of people that are doing it >> let's home that that. >> it should be easy and it's surprisingly hard. there haven't been as many advances in television around that as there should be >> right >> it's exciting for me to now get a chance to do it >> love that. brian stelter, thank you very much. good luck and we look forward to see what you do. >> thank you. >> brine -- brian stermt. >> we'd love to have you in the studio, visit our website klru.org, to find interviews with guests and archives of past episodes >> the times that i most

resented my editors, most resented their efforts were the time they were protecting me, they were saving me at those times. and it's happened at cnn already in the last 12, 13 weeks that i've been there. >> funding for overher heard -- overheard with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, proifing quality of life within our community and from the texas board of legal spesization, board certified attorneys in your community, experience, respected and tested. also by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its gleebl health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and viewers