06/25/15 06/25/15 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! as boston marathon bomber dzhokhar tsarnaev is sentenced to death after apologizing for his role in the attack, we will speak with bud welch. he lost his daughter in the 1995 oklahoma city bombing, but when on to become a leading anti-death penalty advocate. >> on my life i had opposed the death penalty. however, i went to the typical revenge that i was seeking promised a year after the obama city bombing. i was finally able to start thinking more rationally about things and became, once again,

opposed. amy: then as thousands lineup at the south carolina state capital to honor the reverend and state senator clementa pinckney as he lay in state, a new study finds white supremacist and other non-muslim fanatics have killed far more people in the united states since 9/11 than muslim extremists. we will speak with former fbi agent mike german. then to the intercept exposé chris christie's conspiracy, the real story behind the fort dix five terror plot. >> the philosophy that encourages jihad around the world against americans came to live here in new jersey and threaten the lives of our citizens through these defendants. fortunately, law enforcement in new jersey was here to stop them. amy: to chris christie send innocent men entrapped by the fbi to life in jail?

we will look at the case of the fort dix five. the president obama is interrupted at a white house pride event. >> president obama release [indiscernible] president obama -- amy: we will speak with the undocumented trans activist who interrupted the president. all of that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the senate has given final approval to granting president obama fast-track authority to advance the trans-pacific partnership trade deal through congress. the secretive accord involves 12 countries and nearly 40% of the global economy. wednesday's vote followed months of white house lobbying in a standoff with congressional democrats.

opponents say the tpp will undermine workers rights public , health, and environmental regulation. under the new legislation, congress would hold an up-or-down vote on the final trade pact, without filibustering or amendments. the senate has also approved a bill that assists workers displaced by trade accords like the tpp. the justice department is expected to file hate crimes charges against dylann roof, the white supremacist arrested for last week's massacre at a historic south carolina church. federal investigators have reportedly honed in on the racist manifesto roof posted online earlier this year. the nine massacre victims were killed as they took part in bible study at the emanuel ame church. on wednesday, bible study resumed at the church just one week after the shooting. thousands of mourners gathered at the south carolina state house to pay tribute to reverend clementa pinckney, a state senator and the emanuel ame church pastor, who was among the nine victims. pinckney's body lay in state ahead of his funeral on friday.

he is the first african-american since reconstruction to lie in honor in the state rotunda. the public viewing came just steps from where the confederate flag still flies on the state capitol grounds. south carolina lawmakers voted this week to consider its removal. meanwhile in alabama, governor robert bentley has acted on his own by ordering the flags removed from the state capitol grounds. also wednesday, mississippi republican senators roger wicker and thad cochran backed calls for removing the confederate battle flag from the state flag. boston marathon bomber dzhokhar tsarnaev has been formally sentenced to death for his role in the attack that killed three and injured hundreds in 2013. addressing survivors in the courtroom tsarnaev , apologized for the first time, saying -- "i am sorry for the lives that i've taken, for the suffering that i've caused you, for the

damage that i've done." after the hearing boston , marathon survivor henry borgard responded to tsarnaev's statement. >> for me to hear him say that he is sorry, that is enough for me. and i hope, because i still do have faith inhumanity, including in him, i hope that his words were genuine. i hope they were heartfelt. when i made eye contact with him, it wasn't like looking in the face of a criminal. it was like looking in the face of a boy. amy: we'll have more on dzhokhar tsarnaev's death sentence after headlines. the u.s. has told france it's no longer spying on its leaders following disclosures by the group wikileaks. documents published this week show the national security agency spied on president françois hollande and his two predecessors from 2006 to 2012 including listening to and recording cellphone conversations. at the white house, press

secretary josh earnest said president obama has assured french counterpart francois hollande the spying is no more. >> the president was very clear about the fact that the united states does not target and will not target the communications of the president of france. and this is consistent with the conversation that president obama had with president hollande during his visit to washington, d.c. last year, a little over a year ago. we have been very clear that foreign intelligence activities are only conducted when there is a specific and validated national security interest involved. amy: france has denouncing the -- denounced the spying, calling it unacceptable. hollande held an emergency meeting with his ministers on wednesday as his government summoned the u.s. ambassador. at a news conference, secretary of state john kerry said the spying revelation is based on an old document. >> this is an old wikileaks

document. i don't even know what the date is specifically that it starts at or refers to. i'm just telling you point-blank, we are not and will not target the conversations of any from the president come anybody that i know of, selina president hollande the french ministry that is not happening. the death toll from a heat wave in the pakistani city of karachi has grown to around 800. morgues are said to be overflowing with bodies while one hospital has reported treating some 8000 patients in just four days. temperatures have reached as high as 113 degrees fahrenheit. the heat wave in pakistan follows another in neighboring india last month that killed over 2500 people. the obama administration has announced efforts to reduce the long-term detentions of undocumented immigrant mothers and children caught entering the country illegally. those with relatives in the u.s. to sponsor them will now be

offered bond as they apply for asylum. announcing the change, homeland security secretary jeh johnson said the detention of families will be short-term in most cases. some 2600 mothers and their children are being held at two facilities in texas and one in pennsylvania. the vast majority are fleeing violence and domestic abuse in central america. president obama's immigration policy came under direct challenge wednesday from a heckler at the white house. as obama spoke to a gathering celebrating lgbt pride month, an undocumented lgbt activist from mexico called for an end to deportations. >> i want to thank all of you advocates, organizers, friends families, for being here today. over the years, we have gathered to celebrate pride month and i've told you that i am so hopeful about what we can accomplish. i told you that the civil rights of lgbt americans --

>> president obama. release all lgbtq -- [indiscernible] president obama -- [indiscernible] i am tired of the -- amy: a grand jury has indicted three state employees over the death of a 22-year-old nigerian native in a savannah, georgia jail. matthew ajibade died on new year's day of what the coroner described as black forst,, including abrasions lacerations, skin injuries about the head and some other areas of the body. at the time of his death, he was restrained in an isolation cell after authorities said he became combative during an altercation that injured deputies. on wednesday, two former jail employees and a contract health worker were all charged with involuntary manslaughter, among other charges. nine chatham county deputies were fired in connection with the case last month.

president obama has formally unveiled his policy shift on private ransoms for u.s. hostages overseas. while the u.s. government will continue to rule out paying ransoms to militant groups, it will stop threatening to prosecute families who raise private funds to win their loved ones' freedom. >> come on. come on. come on. amy: the move follows criticism from family members of american hostages. a number of u.s. captives have died in captivity while european hostages were released after their governments paid a ransom. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. 21-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev apologize for the first time wednesday before he was formally

sentenced to death for his role in the boston marathon bombing that killed three and injured hundreds. he said -- he added -- this was the first time zone at had spoken in the courtroom since his arraignment two years ago. during the sentencing coming us district judge george o'toole, junior quoted shakespeare saying -- "the evil that men do lives after them. the good is often interred with their bones. so it will be for dzhokhar tsarnaev." outside the courtroom, u.s. attorney carmen ortiz addressed the media. >> he didn't renounce terrorism. he didn't renounce violent extremism, and he couched his comments a in line withllah, which give it a religious tone. there was nothing, as you heard the judge saying the courtroom,

there was nothing about this crime that was islam associated. so that is what i was struck by more. nermeen: meanwhile, some of the bombing's survivors echoed a recent boston globe poll that found fewer than 20% of massachusetts residents support sentencing tsarnaev to death. henry borgard said he opposed the death penalty, and responded to tsarnaev's statement. >> i was actually really happy he made the statement. i, as i said in my personal impact statement, i have forgiven him. i have come to a place of peace and i generally hope he does as well -- i genuinely hope he does as well. or me to hear him say he is sorry, that is enough for me. i hope, because i still do have faith in humanity, including and him, i hope that his words were genuine will stop i hope they were heartfelt. i hope that they were as honest

as the state's you are today in court from the victims and the survivors. they are beastly have no way of knowing that, but i'm one to take it on faith that what he said was genuine. there was a little bit of rhetoric and i agree with what you said absolutely, some of it was hard to hear. but i really -- i was profoundly affected, really deeply moved that he did do that because whether we like to acknowledge it or not, his statement, like ours, takes courage. because the entire world is watching us right now. the fact he made a statement which he did not have to do, gives him a little bit of credit in my book. amy: he was at the time of the bombing a 21-year-old suffolk university student in boston. he was hit by the second blast. the judge rejected a request to move dzhokhar tsarnaev's execution to new hampshire, the only new england state with the death penalty, so survivors could more easily be on hand.

prosecutors say tsarnaev will eventually be taken to federal death row in terre haute indiana. since 1963, the federal government has executed three people, including tim mcveigh, who was put to death in june 2001 for the oklahoma city federal building bombing that killed 168. this year marks the 20th anniversary of the attack on april 19, 1995. our next guest joins us from oklahoma city. bill welch lost his 23-year-old daughter julie in the attack there. after initially supporting capital punishment for his daughter's killing, he has become a vocal opponent of the death penalty. he opposed the execution of mcveigh and is the founding president of murder victims' families for human rights. bud welch, welcome back to democracy now! your thoughts today? in boston, we see the death sentence for dzhokhar tsarnaev.

i think the poll said something like 80% 85% of the people of boston and all of massachusetts were opposed to the death penalty, even in dzhokhar tsarnaev's case. can you reflect as you dealt with this issue 20 years ago? >> high, amy. i can. you know, i am reminded every time something like this happens that the punishment of the death penalty is nothing more than revenge. and i went through almost a year of revenge after julie staff -- julie's death, revenge and hate. one cannot go through the healing process at all when you're living with revenge. and that is all the death penalty is, is revenge. it is not a deterrent. it -- the media says it brings

closure to family members. there are a lot of victims family members here in oklahoma city that i know because i spent 13 years on the board of directors and the oh, city national memorial -- on the oh, city national memorial. they were looking for the word closure at the time timothy mcveigh was executed in 2001, and i had been telling many of those people that the day we would take timothy mcveigh from his cage and would kill him would not be part of their healing process. and they learned that after his death. and many of those people have come forward now and said, it was a mistake for us to kill to mcveigh because what it did was revoked in mice them all over again. one of the ladies that had to little grandchildren that were killed in the day care center, and i will not mention their name because whole country knows

her name, she has evolved so much that she is now on the board of directors for the oklahoma coalition to abolish the death penalty. and that is how it has changed her completely. and i fully understand the people of boston, how we have those that have already been able to come forward, have had enough time to rationalize that the revenge of killing this young man is not part of their healing process. we all go through that. and i always say that the most important thing to people that have gone through such in the event as that, the most important thing is thatey have is time. we are all on a different time schedule. with enough time, we can finally go through the process. nermeen: bud welch, even went so

far as to meet the father of the man responsible for the oh, city bombing, therefore, responsible for your daughter's death. could you talk about meeting timothy mcveigh's father? >> yes, i met bill mcveigh on september 5 1998. i have been contacted by a nun from attica prison that does ministry work there, in fact, still does that today. she had requested i come to the buffalo niagara falls area to speak against the death penalty. and i committed to going there for a week. i had told her the story about bill mcveigh on the television about two weeks after julie's death, and how i really did not want to see the news program that had him on. but i sat and watched it and i saw this man with a deep pain in his eye that i recognized

immediately because i was living with that same pain at the same time. i knew that someday i wanted to go tell that man that i did not blame him or his family for what his son had done. and i had the chance to do that 3.5 years after the bombing. i went and met bill at his house on a saturday morning. what i found was a very nice, gentle man. he was sickened by the fact his son had come back from the war and -- in iraq and he had ptsd, had it badly. he became very much antigovernment, joined militia groups and -- he did not know anything he could do about that. and i am still in contact with

ill. i talked improbably every six months. nermeen: bud welch, what would you say to the survivors and victims of the marathon bombing in light of the death penalty verdict? what would you say to them now? >> one thing i would not say to them is i know how they feel. because i don't. i know how i felt, but i think the big mistake for people like myself that have gone through event like this is just tell someone else that is gone through something else that they know how they feel. because you don't know how they feel. and when you tell someone you know how they feel, you're not helping them one bit. you are actually making matters worse for them. nermeen: uxo suggest the death penalty verdict not only does it not help survivors heal, it actually from -- prolongs their suffering. is that right?

>> absolutely. in the case of mcveigh, he was not on death row that long, just a little over six years. the reason he was only on death row a little over six years is because he was a volunteer. he asked all of -- for all of his appeals to be stopped. he asked for an execution date. i don't think if to mcveigh had not done that, i don't think we would have ever executed him. i think he was still be alive today. because the federal government really did not want to kill timothy mcveigh. amy: we are going to ask you to stay with us. we're gwenda be talking about the facts in our next segment that former whites of premisess have killed -- why super mrs. have killed more since 9/11 than extremist in the united states. we would like you to weigh in on this as well, having direct experience with being a victim, your daughter killed in the oakland city bombing april 19,

1995, along with 167 others. bud welch speaking to us from obama city. when we come back, we will be joined by a former fbi special agent, mike german, to talk about this new study. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace remocracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: thousands lined up to pay tribute to clementa pinckney was among the nine victims killed last week at bible study in charleston. his body lay in state ahead of his funeral on friday. he is the first african-american to be -- since reconstruction to lie in honor in the state rotunda. this comes as a new report finds white supremacist and other non-muslim fanatics have killed

far more people in the united states since 9/11 than muslim extremists. amy: according to the report 26 people have been killed since 9/11 but 48 people have been killed in attacks by right wing groups. despite the intense focus by the obama administration on muslim communities, non-muslims have carried out 19 terrorist attacks since september 11, 2001, while muslims have been responsible for only seven. to talk more about the findings, we're joined now by mike german a fellow at nyu's brennan center for justice. from 1988 to 2004 he served as an fbi agent specializing in domestic counterterrorism. he left after reporting continuing deficiencies in fbi counterterrorism operations to congress. he's the author of, "thinking like a terrorist: insights of a former fbi undercover agent." still what this in oakland the city, -- still with us, bud welch. his daughter was killed in the

bombing of the oklahoma city federal building april 1995, blown up by timothy mcveigh was put to death in 2001. mike german, talk about what my surprise many given the bent in the focus, in at least the public comments of the government. >> there are a couple of things that are surprising. one is this threat from far right extremists is a persistent threat that is been here for a long time and continues despite the lack of media coverage of most of those events. the second is that the numbers are very fluid. different groups count different events. the combating terrorism center at west point, for example, put out a report in 2012 that had a far higher number of fatalities as a result of far right violence. rather than the government keeping accurate records based on a specific standard, we have private organizations collecting

the numbers under their own standards, so we don't have a clear picture of the nature and scope of this threat. nermeen: i want to turn to comments made by fbi director james comey following the charleston massacre last week. speaking at a news conference in baltimore friday, comey said the massacre would be investigated as a hate crime, but ruled out the term "terrorism." >> i wouldn't because of the way we define terrorism under the law, terrorism is an act of violence or threatened in order to try to influence a public body or the citizenry, so it is more of a political act. they stop what i know so far, i don't see it as a political act. nermeen: that was one day before dylan roof plus manifesto came to life. could you talk specifically about what comey said in light of what you criticize in the fbi's methodology when they compare islamism or muslim extremists and white supremacist

violence in u.s.? >> you can imagine the different reaction that would have occurred if dylan roof was wearing and isis flag on his jacket rather than a rhodesia flag. for some of you like me who knows a lot about the white supremacist movement and having been undercover in it, seeing no symbols, seeing the target -- the emanuel ame church, like many ame churches come isn't just a spiritual center of the black community, it is the political center, the social center. the fact it is targeted fits the fbi definition, which is an act of violence intended to intimidate of course a civilian population and the political purpose is obvious. one of the victims who is specifically picked out was a state legislator. the idea that somehow this was not political i think says a lot about the way the fbi views -- amy: were you shocked by james comey's comments? we knew at that point that he

said i'm going to kill you because you are black. we knew that he said to a woman who is lying on the floor, i'm not when you kill you because i want you to tell everyone else -- which is terrorizing the rest of the community. so he laid it all out right there. the justice department said they were weighing whether was terrorist, but james comey came out and has not retracted that statement, even since the manifesto. >> and that is unusual. usually in an investigation, you wait until the evidence is brought forth. you don't make a claim about the evidence long before there is been time to investigate it. so it is surprising. but i think, again, reflects this idea that the government has that if you are using violence to challenge the establishment, challenge government policy, you are more dangerous than if you're using violence in a way that affects minority communities or reinforces the establishment status quo as the church committee found, the fbi and the hoover era saw themselves not as

law enforcers, the guardians of the status quo. and that seems -- that thinking seems to be reflected in the statement that this act was a political. nermeen: could you say a little bit more about how the west point center you talked about combating terrorism center, help it compiles the statistics -- how it can compiled the statistics and the fbi does? >> congress mandated the department of justice published the number of hate crimes. now, the domestic terrorism events that the combating terrorism center talks about are not necessarily the same. some of the same of what we would call hate crimes. but the fbi publishes an april report -- annual report this as the rebel 6000 7000 hate crimes each year, roughly. i think last time, 2013, the last date published, was about

6000. the national institute of justice did an examination and using a different methodology, found up to 190,000 hate crimes in a year. so that disparity is inexplicable and it definitely shows the fbi's methodology doesn't show the scope of the threat. amy: let's talk about the problem with overtly taking this as seriously or counting the number of cases there are. you went undercover yourself. explain what you did. >> in 1992, i was asked to go undercover into a group of neo-nazis who we had some evidence had been engaging in some weapons transactions. the investigation started with informants introducing me and lasted from start to finish about 14 months of my involvement. amy: undercover. >> identified numerous instances

of manufacture of explosives, use of explosives and consumer -- conspiracy to do bombing, including an ame church in los angeles. at the end of that investigation, we went to the trial, i think about eight or 10 people were tried total. at the end of it, i call the fbi's domestic terrorism in it and said when are we going to have a debriefing so i can everything i learned about how these groups work? and they said they didn't need one, they felt they understood -- amy: this was when? >> 1994 after the trials in 1993. after the oklahoma city bombing i went back undercover in government groups, used the same methodology i had used in a previous investigation, also in a shorter time because i did not make as many mistakes, was able to basically identify the same criminal activities within the groups.

again, after the trials, reached out to the domestic terrorism unit and a tommy they did not want to debrief me. part of the problem is the fbi doesn't capture the information. i think sandy berger to the 9/11 hearings of the fbi problem isn't what he doesn't know it doesn't know what it does know. so there isn't an effort to capture the information agents learned during these investigations. amy: i want to bring bud welch into this conversation. as you listen to mike german talked about going undercover and white supremacist groups in 1994, asking for debriefing and they say they did not want it, and in 1995 oh, city bombing happens -- oklahoma city bombing happens. timothy mcveigh, anti-muslim, white supremacist. your feelings? >> my feelings are very simply, tim mcveigh and timothy nichols came back from desert storm.

when they came back, they were ill. they had ptsd. the government failed to give them the proper treatment that they should have received. so we see those kinds of failures and different branches of government having to do with terrorists. i think the federal government many times is reluctant to admit that we have homegrown terrorists in the united states. and i think that was the case with mcveigh and nichols, and that is why julie is dead today. it is complicated. it doesn't have to be that, located. nermeen: i want to go back to another incident in august 2012 the massacre at the sikh temple

in wisconsin in which 6 people were killed, democracy now! spoke to a former senior analyst at the department of homeland security, daryl johnson. in 2009, he called attention to the threat of far-right extremist groups and sparked a political firestorm in the process. the report warned that the election of the first african-american president combined with economic anxieties, could fuel a rise in far-right violence. johnson described the fallout from his research. >> i never anticipated that the department of homeland security, my employer, would actually clampdown on the unit and stop all of the valuable work we were doing. leading up to this report, and i will talk about this at length in my book, my team was doing a lot of good things throughout the country. we received numerous accolades from law enforcement and

intelligence officials talking about the great work we were dog in the fight agnst a stic terrism. theu oe political backlash, the department decided to not only stop all of work, stop all of the training and briefings we were scheduled to give, but they also disdain at the unit, reassigned us to other areas within the office, and then made life increasingly difficult for us. not only did they stop the work we were doing, but they also tried to blame us for some of the attacks that were occurring. nermeen: that was daryl johnson speaking to democracy now! in in august 2012. a "new york times" piece wednesday headlined, "for domestic hate, apply the vigor and strategy used for muslim terror," johnson wrote -- "domestic terrorism is the national security threat whose name we dare not speak. the numbers of both extremists and the radical movements that spur them to violence are soaring, and coalescing, in alarming ways. yet through reckless neglect at nearly all levels of government, domestic terrorism not tied to islam has become a cancer with no diagnosis or plan to address it."

mike german, can you respond? >> i think there are a couple of issues. one, while the number of far right fatalities -- fratelli's is higher than any other group distal relatively small compared to the 14,000 murders that happen each year. we have to keep this in context. amy: and on that we could talk about gun violence, but we don't have time today. >> there is an issue in the study of terrorism like muslim -- amy: aren't they forced to revoke the study because there are such an outcry? >> and i criticize the study as well because it made a simple causal connection between holding particular ideas and becoming violent. if you look at the actual empirical studies of people who commit terrorism, there is no civil connection.

the ideology is neither necessary. plenty of people are committing violence without it, nor sufficient. it is not the only thing. many thousands of people hold these ideologies join these groups who don't act out. and i knew from my undercover work that many of them were actually opposed to violence even know they held views that would shock many people. they would tell me, do not engage with those knuckleheads over there that you are hanging out with, you're just when you get in trouble. -- you're just going to get in trouble. people need to be able to express their views without being suppressed by government surveillance and government needs to study the violence rather than the ideologies. nermeen: the government and those who support the government's policies following 9/11 make the argument that the government's counterterrorism strategy has been successful in the best proof of that is there has not been an attack in the u.s. like what occurred on

september 11, 2001. >> one of the first things you learn as an fbi agent is the absence of evidence is not evidence. unfortunately, we have seen far too many people slipping through the cracks. every death from terrorism is a tragedy. government needs to understand it. the last thing we want to see is the abuse used in counterterrorism operations now being brought -- amy: your final, it as we had done to charleston today i'm a we will be there tomorrow for the funeral of reverend pinckney and the memorial for the emanuel nine. who villain storm roof is, what he was a part of, and the significance of these flags. one of these magic moments in history, people fight for for so long. it is not the particular governors correctly doing this, because it was a foundation of social activism of years, for example, to take on the flags.

the flags are an integral part of this ideology. >> absolutely. one of the things you have to keep in mind is the flags give aid and comfort to those who have this hateful, racist ideology. so even if you think it doesn't represent that, when they see the flag rising, they think that far more people support their ideas and are just more quiet about it, and it gives them comfort that if they just do this one violent act, that will start the revolution. and that is why you hear them talking about race wars and triggering the race war during act of violence as they feel there is this tacit support behind them. amy: to think it is possible villain might have shot the roof off the confederacy? >> interesting way to put it. it is said it took a tragedy like this to look at this problem and to recognize how this was hurting society and keeping us back.

it is good to see it is now happening, but that is really only part of the problem. we really have to have the government focus on violence rather than ideology. and truly try to understand how terrorism works of they can develop measures that are narrowly targeted to the people are actually causing harm. amy: we want to thank you for being with us, mike german a , fellow at nyu's brennan center for justice. from 1988 to 2004, he served as an fbi agent specializing in domestic counterterrorism. author of, "thinking like a terrorist: insights of a former fbi undercover agent." and thank you to bud welch in oklahoma city. even 20 years later, as we pass this 20th anniversary, our condolences on the death of julie, your daughter, killed in the oklahoma city bombing april 19, 1995. we will be back in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: written in response to the 16th street baptist church bombing and birmingham by the ku klux klan. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: as republican new jersey governor chris christie prepares to enter the presidential race, we look at a case often cited as one of the crowning achievements of his political career -- the case of the fort dix five. in 2008, 5 men from suburban new jersey were convicted of conspiring to kill american soldiers at the fort dix army base. as u.s. attorney, christie was responsible for prosecuting the case. the intercept has just published a piece re-examining the case. it is titled, "christie's conspiracy: the real story behind the fort dix 5 terror plot." the intercept has also just released a short accompanying video that includes a lengthy interview with burim duka.

three of his brothers were arrested in the plot. they remain locked up. the video begins with then u.s. attorney chris christie speaking in 2007 from the steps of the federal courthouse in camden new jersey. >> the philosophy that supports and encourages jihad around the world against americans came to live here in new jersey and threaten the lives of our citizens through these defendants. fortunately, law enforcement in new jersey was here to stop them. >> my oldest brother, the second oldest, the third oldest -- my three brothers and two other defendants got arrested for conspiracy to attack a military base here in new jersey at fort dix military base. we used to go out in a manner time we owned a roofing company, and we could not work

in the wintertime when it was snowing, so we were go on vacation with just as guys. just so we would go on vacation with just as guys. quick look at him. >> this is nice. it is a nice view. >> we are recording, so that everybody could have a little clip of what we did when we were in the poconos. then me and my brother we went to transfer the cassette we had introduced a different each person so they could have one. >> on the range for a second time. when you try to shoot some more. this is what we did yesterday.

[gunshots] >> someone turn in the video to police saying we were shouting to allah. they got two informants involved. in egyptian guy and an albanian informant who was mainly here for us duka brothers. one would always try to bring copies of politics always trying to bring up jihad, while we not

doing nothing, how come we're not overseas. older people and women are doing things that we are not. he would always try to get on our bedside. we always played it cool. >> [indiscernible] why you not fight for muslim? >> [indiscernible]

>> the informant omar, hung out with our friend. our friend was to like my brother, he said all kinds of crazy things. together, they came up with the plot. the informant and friends said my brothers were in on the plot. once the government seen that they were you nothing about it, they created an illegal gun deal. omar knew my brothers were in two guns. he spent a lot of time with us. he set up the deal for my brothers to buy some weapons and the weapons were provided by the guy.

amy: an excerpt from the new video intercept directed the fort dix five. it goes on to show the confession. >> they did nothing. i never heard nothing from them. they are good and kind people. amy: with us now murtaza , hussain, a reporter at the

intercept. his latest piece is called "christie's conspiracy: the real story behind the fort dix 5 terror plot." talk about this case what chris christie had to do with it and who still remains in jail. >> in 2007, one of the most high-profile terrorism investigations in the post-9/11 era. at the time it was reported a group of men were planning to attack the fort dix military base, albanian immigrants to the u.s.. it was trumped as a major uncovering of a major plot against u.s. chris christie was then u.s. attorney at the time. he was responsible for prosecuting this case. in generating the charges against these men. amy: spine what happened next. -- explain what happened next. >> after the duka fairly went on a vacation, they dropped off a video to local circuit city. in the video, they had done horseback riding, skiing, and gone to a shooting range. they peppered their phrases with arabic phrases that people tend to do with the muslim

background. the circuit city people got alarmed. they reported it to the police. the police forwarded it to the fbi in the fbi proceeded to introduce two informants into the lives of the duka brothers. these informants preferring to them over the course of 18 months. they recorded them. they tried to load them into saying things and commit a criminal act. they were never successful. there was another man who went along with the informants plot separately, but the duka brothers never even knew about the plots. in 2007 when newer arrested they were charged with a plot to attack the base. they ended up being convicted and sentenced to life in prison and are also serving life today. nermeen: mike german, could you talk about the increasing use of fbi informants following 9/11 and what the effects of that were and to what extent the policy still continues today? >> sure. terrorism became the fbi -- preventing terrorism came the

fbi's number one mandate. they transferred a lot of resources and agents to working counterterrorism post updates spend of the task forces and expanded the performance dedicated to counterterrorism work. this technique -- informants are not new. as long as there is been law enforcement, there had been informants. and i did undercover work often with informants. but what has changed is the methodology. number one, typically, you would not use an informant who had a more serious metal record in the subject of the investigation. that just did not make any sense that you would put somebody who is a really bad person to just ensnare some of the else when you don't have significant evidence of person engaged in violent crime. who is being used to target who. and then these of these techniques where the inducement

and the coercion is so significant, that it would not have survived muster. for 9/11, if i had asked the fbi to open an undercover terrorism investigation and told them that the person was not associated with any real terrorist group and had no weapons of their own and had no plot of their own that that was all part of the operation, they would have probably sent me to counseling. amy: murtaza hussain? >> that was the case in the fort dix. were no plots, no weapons until the informant was introduced to the lives of these been. amy: and chris christie specifically, who might well run for the president of the united states? >> he was the u.s. attorney at the time of this case and responsible for prosecuting the case. he gave that press conference. for him, this was huge to his career. he cited as an example for defeating terrorism on his watch when in reality, the fact of the

case is very troubling. it was a very dubious and aggressive in malicious prosecution, which resulted in sending a number of men who may well have been completely innocent to joe for the rest of their lives. amy: what it chris christie no? >> we don't know what he knew at the beginning of the case, but as the trial started to develop, he became very clear there was the absence of evidence against the duka brothers. it was evening knowledge of the judge. when he delivered the ascendancy, he noted the lack of direct evidence and said it did not seem to bother him nor the jury. it is indicative -- amy: is it being appealed? >> the brothers have launched a series of appeals. amy: where are they? >> two are in solitary for a number of years in a super max prison in florence, colorado. one of the most harsh and brutal prisons in the country, and solitary confinement 23 hours a

day. they have not seen their children nor touched them since this happen. their lives of been destroyed. and for what purpose? >> i think one of the things it shows us how the fbi had this concept of terrorist radicalization that if you have these ideas, you are on a path that did -- catheters am so it justifies using these extraordinary measures to put the line, even though studies do not support that area of radicalization the fbi holds. amy: we want to thank you both for being with us and we will certainly link to your piece. murtaza hussain is a reporter at the intercept. his latest piece is called "christie's conspiracy: the real story behind the fort dix 5 terror plot." and thank you to mike german, now at the brennan center. this is democracy now! nermeen: president obama's immigration policy came under direct challenge at the white house. as he spoke to a gathering celebrating lgbt pride month, an

undocumented lgbt activist from mexico called for an end to deportations. >> i want to thank all of you -- advocates, organizers, friends families, for being here today. over the years, we have gathered to celebrate pride month will stop and i have told you that i am so hopeful about what we can accomplish, told you that the civil rights of all gpt americans -- >> president obama, release all lgbt -- [indiscernible] president obama -- [indiscernible] i am a trans woman. i am tired -- [cheers] >> as a general rule, i'm just fine with a few hecklers. [laughter] but not when i am up in the house.

amy: he said this is my house. well, joining us from washington d.c. is the undocumented trans activist from mexico who interrupted president obama, founding member of -- established to advocate for lgbtq immigrants often excluded in the immigration debate. what did you say? how did you get into the white house? what was the message you have for president obama? >> good morning, amy, thank you for having me. i wanted to send a very strong message to president obama. what i was trying to say was for mr. obama to release all lgbtq detainees in detention centers in addition, stop the abuse and torture trans women are facing in detention. a sickly, the message at the end

was to stop all deportations. nermeen: could you explain how you got into the white house? >> i did get an invite from a friend of mine who works for "get equal." she had an extra ticket and she had seen my activism that i've done in the last six months. so she gathered my information and submitted it to the white house, and i got clearance to be a participant. amy: as you are escorted out by the security, you are taking a great risk. you are undocumented, trans activist from mexico. what did they say to you? were you concerned you yourself would be in jeopardy? >> that is correct. i knew that was a big risk to take but to me, i have always been a risk taker. in the message and giving the

voice to my community that don't have that voice was more important than facing any consequences. as i was being escorted out, the secret service and the security or just very silent. -- were just very silent. they were not questioning me or giving me any specific orders. i just continued to pass out of the white house. once i was out there, they kind of held me for 20 minutes or so. they wanted to double check my identity and basically -- amy: we have to leave it there but i want to thank you for being with us. undocumented trans activist from mexico, founding member of the group familia tqm. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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