>> in america, race still resonates. >> you don't think people have the right to say what sort of neighborhoods they'd like to live in? >> absolutely, but i don't think that people have a right to say, "we don't want black people in our neighborhood." given race in america, you never really know whether it is or isn't there and to what extent. but it probably is one of the issues, and it's also the one issue that the press hesitates to talk about. >> male narrator: tonight a frank discussion on race and the media. what color is the news? should race define which stories are newsworthy? who makes these decisions? examine how journalists wrestle with these questions next on what color is the news? the coverage of race in america. funding for what color is the news? was provided by the ford foundation, a resource for innovative people

and institutions worldwide. >> i'm beth courtney, president of louisiana public broadcasting. >> and i'm jack hamilton, dean of louisiana state university's manship school of mass communication. recently, our two institutions collaborated with the fred friendly seminars and the columbia university school of journalism's workshop on race. we brought together a group of journalists, educators, and community leaders to grapple with questions many still find difficult to talk about and even more difficult to answer. when does race and ethnicity become part of the news? when do these issues matter in news reports? and how does it affect the newsroom itself? >> our moderator, charles ogletree of harvard law school, challenged our panelists with a hypothetical scenario. but while the people and places they encounter may be fictitious, the dilemmas they face are very real. >> we learned that the sort of events you might see in your newspaper on any particular day-- a prominent businessman returning to his hometown, a neighborhood fighting

over a new multiplex, or the police releasing a description of a homicide suspect-- can raise wrenching questions on whether and how race becomes part of the story. >> and how we answer those questions can shape the future of our community. now, as our scenario begins, dr. ronald mason jr., president of jackson state university, plays a prominent businessman returning to his hometown of belleville in the state of southernton with plans to build a multiplex in the city center. and a journalist has been assigned to cover the story. >> ogletree: mr. magagnini, let me ask you about this story. what are you thinking about when you want to talk to mr. mason about his background and his new opportunity? >> well, with a story like this, i want to get to mr. mason where he lives. and i want to get as much time with him as i can, perhaps an afternoon. and i'll take him out to dinner. and i'll get him to tell me the story from day one and from before. >> ogletree: well, mr. magagnini, you're able to

come to visit mr. mason. you come to his house. you meet his wife, and you meet his daughter and his son. and you notice something. mr. mason, an african american now back in belleville, his daughter, lisanne, is white. his son, craig, is black. his wife is african american, as well. is that of interest to you? >> i would have some curiosity about it. >> ogletree: but this is a story, as i stated, on the business section of your paper. why is that at all of interest to you? >> i think it's of interest to me as a human being. i'm not saying that it belongs in the story. >> ogletree: okay, mr. mcgowan, what do you think about his interest in this observation about the white daughter of the african-american business leader? >> i'd share the curiosity. i guess, depending on the answ-- whether it would make its way into the paper, whether steve

would include it in his business-section piece, i think, depends on the answer. but i can't see how he wouldn't be curious about it. >> ogletree: i'm curious, though, why it's of any interest at all. this is about a successful businessman about to open up an important business in your city. why is that important? >> it's just human curiosity. >> ogletree: mr. adderton, is it an important fact when you're thinking about writing this story? >> on face value, no. i don't see it as having any bearing on whether mr. mason's multiplex is going to be successful. >> ogletree: why do you think these other journalists are curious about it? >> human nature, but i just don't see it-- sometimes that curiosity has a way of working itself into the newspaper and into the story. >> what do you mean by that? is that bad? >> it depends on one's perspective. in america, race still resonates. sometimes, that clouds the issue. >> ogletree: well, let me ask you, mr. mason, before we get to the details

about your daughter, what's your reaction if this question's even raised with you? what goes through your mind? >> well, i guess a couple of things. one: frankly, i'd be curious myself how i ended up with a white... [laughter] with a white daughter. but, you know, being practical, if it's my family, i certainly wouldn't object to talking about my family. >> ogletree: all right, mr. magagnini, shoot away. what do you want to know? >> mr. mason. welcome back to southernton and belleville. can you tell me a little bit about your background, a little bit about your parents and where you were raised and where you went to school? and take it from there. >> well, i grew up here in southernton, the son of a sharecropper, as you might expect. joined the service. served my time in the armed forces.

finished my education. met a guy named magic johnson, who taught me how to open up centroplexes in urban america. came home to be with my family and my friends and try to do some good for my community. >> ogletree: and you can go on and on. he's going to give you all that information. but are you going to ask him about his daughter? >> i am going to give mr. mason every opportunity to volunteer that information to me. >> ogletree: but that's not the question i asked you. are you going to ask him about his daughter? she's sitting there. you're doing this interview. your photographer's taking pictures: father, daughter, son, wife. are you going to ask him, steve? >> mr. mason, can you tell me a little bit about your family? >> ogletree: wait a minute; wait a minute. [laughter] come on, steve. come on, steve. you can't even ask the question? is--would anyone ask

the question more directly? "i noticed that your daughter's white." will anyone ask that question? >> absolutely. >> ogletree: mr. shannon, you would ask it? >> mr. mason, you expect to open, i assume, a very expensive metroplex. you're coming back to the deep south, southernton. and it's rather unusual to have a caucasian daughter. can you tell us about how you came to have her as a daughter? >> ogletree: before you answer the question, tell me what you're thinking about that question. putting aside what your answer's going to be, tell me how you, emotionally, react to that answer-- the question. what is he asking? >> it doesn't bother me, and i'll tell you why. if i have a chance to run a photo of my family in the paper, i see that as a great p.r. opportunity, because if my project is going to work, i'm going to need white folks' money to help make it work. and a lot of times-- >> we're tv now. a lot of times, the fear factor is minimized if they think

that you know how to talk to them in their own terms. >> ogletree: well, you actually have a very compelling story, because you adopted lisanne when she was very young. she was the young child of your best friend in college. and her mother and father died in a terrible auto accident. and as a gesture of your appreciation for that long-term relationship and your knowing her from her birth, you adopted her, and she is your daughter. but you have said you'd be interested in responding because it might be good for business. >> well, in part, but also because if asked a question, i'll answer the question. >> ogletree: well, let's-- very interesting. let's ask your children about it. you've got your adopted daughter and your son. craig and lisanne, talk to your dad about this. >> dad, i just don't know if i can go through all this again. i mean, you're a great father as it is, and i don't know why you being a successful businessman has anything to do with me and why i have to answer all these questions. my friends already know, and i don't see why the whole world needs to know what

happened to my parents and why you adopted me. >> ogletree: what about craig? >> dad, i understand that, you know, we're here in to establish the business here. but i am just a little suspect of these reporters that come in and ask questions that don't have anything to do with the business. so please just leave us out. >> ogletree: what would you want to say to your kids here? >> this is so different from my real kids. i'd have to-- [laughter] i would certainly respect their wishes. >> ogletree: mr. moreau, mr. greenman, any quick comments on whether or not this is an interesting story? mr. moreau? >> i think not so much the composition of the family but the manner in which the family came to be that way. his decision to adopt this child, i think, may be very significant as far as what type of businessman he is, what type of principles that made him successful.

but to the extent that it infringes upon the daughter's privacy, who'd rather not have to relive the loss of her parents in the press, that's a fact that has got to be considered. >> ogletree: mr. greenman? >> i think it's an interesting aspect of his story and his character. i don't think it's in the first story about making an investment in the community and multiplex. i'm more interested in that initially. but as the others have said, it's an interesting fact to hold on to, come back to, do a character story. >> ogletree: okay, so the story runs in the business section. mr. mason arrives, and he's setting up his multiplex. and it turns out that as great a benefit as this is to belleville, it's not an issue without some opposition. and, in fact, there are some residents who are saying that it might create traffic problems in the central district. now, there's another aspect of this. it's not just that there's opposition, but those who are enthusiastic happen to be, mr. sanchez, largely african-

american and hispanic residents of belleville. those who are most concerned about it and troubled about it not being a good idea to have a multiplex theater downtown are white. and let me ask you, as the mayor, trying to promote unity in the city, does that fact that it's creating some dissention within your city trouble you at all? >> yes, it does. >> ogletree: and what do you think--you may not say it publicly. what do you think's the real reason? what's underlying this? >> well, i'm thinking that this is an african-american businessman, and there are a lot of caucasian businesspeople that have made an investment in their boutiques and businesses and establishments in and around the multiplex. there perhaps is some concern that mr. mason's business will attract a large number of racial minorities-- hispanics, african americans-- and will tend to diminish the value of the property

and the esteem in which the surrounding businesses are held. that's what i'm thinking privately. >> ogletree: all right. mr. greenman, you're the publisher of the belleville times. your reporters are telling you that the story divides along racial lines. is that part of the story, or are you just going to use the buzzwords about "it doesn't fit within the neighborhood." that's what they said. it's going to attract noisy teenagers, create traffic. that's what they're going to say. that's what they heard at the public meeting. they didn't hear anything along the lines of race. but the people who were speaking came from particular ethnic groups. do you want your reporter to make that plain to the belleville readers? >> if the reporters and their editors really understand that this is a story that's sort of breaking along racial or ethnic lines, as well as other lines, sure, i'd include that in a story. >> ogletree: okay. well, keith woods, you're the city editor. talk to the publisher about this. talk to mr. greenman. >> john, i think that every time there is this sort of obvious divide where one group of people

opposing something or supporting something is white and one group opposing it or supporting it is black, there's a fairly good chance that race sits underneath that. so i'm going to make sure, when we send steve out to do this story, that he's asking that question. it may not be in the story. we may determine that it's not a part of the story. but we're going to ask that question, because, i think, beyond that, that there are probably some legitimate concerns about teenagers. i have some. there's probably some legitimate concerns about traffic and crime and all of the other things that these people are talking about. and i want to make sure that they are both heard in that respect but also that we explore, if race is part of it, we explore it as completely as possible. >> ogletree: and, of course, jim amoss, you're the managing editor of this paper. what do you think about keith's interpretation of what's going on here? >> i wouldn't want the newspaper to create a racial dynamic

that isn't there. and i would like to hear it out of the mouths of the participants and not out of the mouths of the reporters. >> ogletree: well, tell him-- >> maybe i'm hearing it already and they're just not using those words. and i'm just wanting to make sure, because i've got a lot of experience in this area, and--i've got a lot of experience, and we as a newspaper have had a lot of experience in hearing people speaking in code. and if i wait for them to say it, we may miss that story. we may be behind it and covering it once something blows up. >> well, but i'm just saying, don't accept their code at face value, and don't let the reporter decode it on his own and maybe put an interpretation on what's being said that perhaps isn't meant by the speakers. >> but is it okay if i, in my coaching of steve, suggest that he say to them

something like, "some people might interpret what you've just said as code language for race"? should they? would that be an okay question? >> i think that's an okay question. >> ogletree: well, you know, we're dancing around this. if i'm a white resident here and i'm saying these things, i can back these things up legitimately. i may be a racist, but i'm not trying to be one. but i don't want traffic. i don't want teenagers. i don't want more urban sprawl. am i a racist because i'm saying that? >> no, i'm not calling you a racist. i'm just asking you to name the things by their proper names. >> ogletree: i did; i said traffic, noisy teenagers. >> you said inner-city kids. >> ogletree: inner-city kids. >> what did you mean by that? >> ogletree: inner-city kids. you know what i mean. you run stories about it all the time. you know what i mean. what do you think i mean? >> i'm not in the business of interpreting your thoughts. >> ogletree: so we'll just stay away from this issue, then? we'll just tiptoe around it? >> no, i think we'd like to probe it a little more. >> ogletree: you want me to say, "i don't want black kids

coming into the downtown area." you want me to be explicit and appear to be a racist. >> if that's your thought. >> ogletree: that's what you want. >> i want you to express yourself. >> ogletree: lori, what about this conversation? >> that's what i was thinking; i was wondering, what question would you ask that would allow the explicit expression of the racism that you think you're witnessing, that you want to explore, that you have a gut feeling is there? and i don't think, in the context of an individual story, there's a question you can ask that doesn't allow the code language to come forward. and, in fact, part of what your gut feeling is, the reason you want to explore this, is not because of the multiplex itself but because it's representative of a pattern. you've heard the code before. and the problem is trying to solve this terribly difficult problem in the context of one story when we recognize it only because it's part of a larger pattern. if it's the first time you've heard traffic, then maybe

it's the traffic. >> ogletree: but you think it's more. >> i think it's something else. >> ogletree: jim shannon, you have a wonderful opportunity. you have a camera. what are you going to do? this is a great story for you, isn't it? >> absolutely. with all due respect to my colleagues in the print, the television camera says a lot more simply because it's videotaping a visual where you can let the viewer make up their own mind while allowing the participants to express theirs. >> ogletree: bill mcgowan, you're a freelance writer for the southernton monthly. tell me what you are hearing and what's your reaction to this tiptoeing around this issue if you're going to write the story. >> i guess i take issue with your characterization that it's tiptoeing. i think that what i'm hearing is that they want to get closer to the bone without declaring it a racially based conflict. >> ogletree: right. >> and i think proceeding slowly in a measured way is the way to go about it. a big part of how the story

gets reported is how the editors will package it once steve comes back and, you know, what kind of heads, what kind of text, what kind of pictures is all very much part of that. >> ogletree: well, jim shannon's going to show a picture. his story will be much clearer than what the newspaper can do, right? >> well, it's clearer in some ways. and in other ways, it confuses the issue. >> ogletree: okay. >> because it only--i mean, in a picture, black and white are the primary things we see. we don't see the more subtle economic arguments. >> ogletree: mr. amoss, how do we discuss this issue? or do we? >> you know, it's-- it is so much a matter of perception. and it's not going to be an easy issue to get at journalistically, because i think people will be very hesitant to talk in anything but code about it. they'll talk about their fear of going into that neighborhood because of what they've heard about crime, but they're not

going to say to us, you know, "i don't want my white teenager to be hanging out with a bunch of black teenagers." >> folks, i think that our experience shows that people will talk about it. they're talking about it on talk radio right now if we were to go and turn on wwl. so we know it's there. we know that this issue is what the folks are talking about over the back fence in our neighborhoods. and one of our challenges is really to try to figure out how to get that kind of stuff on the air and in the newspaper. and if we can't get people to attach their names to it, then we've got to get it in there in some other way. >> i'd agree with him. i think-- >> ogletree: tell him. >> one of the problems that we do have is that, a lot of times, mainstream news organizations cede that kind of intangible or murky territory to the talk-radio hosts. and in some ways, they might be

inflaming the issue more than it deserves. it's our obligation to go in and, i think, assess, measure, parse, however you want to phrase it, but, you know, just cut through the piety and really get at the core of the issue. >> then, in that case, there's only one thing to do. >> take a camera crew down and get-- >> no, get al sharpton down there. >> ogletree: meaning what? what do you mean? you're saying this is going to become more complicated. >> exactly. >> ogletree: mr. adderton, mr. shannon says if we really discuss it, that brings in al sharpton. what's that statement about? >> that's a statement about a 30-second sound bite, which television is about. they may give us the immediacy, but newspapers give us the perspective. the situation that's present in belleville just didn't fall off the boat. it's been there a while. as journalists, we need to go back to the beginning. and if it takes six months

to tell the story, it takes six months to tell the story. but we should get to the root cause, give it some perspective, and, again, talk to as many people as we can. the trouble with mainstream media is that we don't get in the communities. >> mason doesn't have six months to wait around for the permits and stuff to get in. he needs to get his project off the road, off the ground, correct? >> but whether he opens his multiplex or not does not rest on whether we report the story, which, we should report the story. >> keith is right. people are going to be talking about it. they'll be talking about it on the radio. and if we go interview the kids and their parents that are under fire from the businesspeople, they're going to talk plenty about race. and i understand mr. amoss' concerns. we do not want to inflame the issue, and we don't want to make it primarily about race if it's not primarily about race. but once we decide that race

is a significant factor behind the motivations and the sentiments in our town, then maybe we decide to do a story called "what's race got to do with it," where we interview, as you said, mr. adderton, as many people as we can and choose wisely in terms of which voices we put in the paper and try to air the discussion in as balanced and responsible a way as possible. and i think we can probably get that story done inside of a week or two, not six months. >> but, steve, we have to go beyond the usual suspects that we always call on 'cause they're good with quotes. you need to get more everyday people into your stories. >> so i think if a commitment is made to really say, "what's race got to do with it," then it's not just a one-time deal. it's not just one community meeting sponsored by the newspaper that the newspaper then covers, along with the tv station, but the multiplex is looked at again after it's built and it's

looked at again six months down the line so that we find out, "well, what did happen? what is this about?" and the conversation isn't just centered around the hubbub of activity that is obviously newsworthy but that the newsworthy stories are dug out of the patterns and the deeper issues that the multiplex represents. >> ogletree: dr. mason, you've been watching television. you've been reading the newspaper. how do you feel about what's happening to you, to your business interest in this community now? >> well, if i'm a savvy businessman, i'm not surprised at all. >> ogletree: why? >> because this is fairly typical in america. and the circumstances you describe would end up where you described it ending up one way or the other. listening to the conversation, though--and this is me talking now--what i find interesting is that the truth is that there probably would be 10 or 12 different issues affecting whether we can move into this neighborhood.

and race, this being america, will probably be one of them. but the one thing that the media would have long debates about whether they're going to put on a list of issues affecting whether we move into this neighborhood is race. and the truth is, given race in america, you never really know whether it is or isn't there and to what extent. but it probably is one of the issues, and it's also the one issue that the press hesitates to talk about. the thing is that you never have an opportunity to film those conversations in the back room when those businessmen are saying, "we don't want this black group in our neighborhood" so that, by definition, you're creating an unbalanced picture. it's not your fault; it's just the way race in america works. and as a savvy businessman, having gone through this a hundred times, i'd probably expect it all. >> ogletree: and then a shocking thing happens in belleville. a person who was a businessman, richard rowe, is shot in broad daylight.

he lives in one of the condos in the central district downtown, where this multiplex is being created. in the same day, there's also another homicide in the area near there. it's an area more in the south side of the district, that's largely minority. and the story is that daniel dole also is shot and killed the same day in his tenement in front of some witnesses. and that's another homicide. and district attorney moreau, we have identified, based on eyewitness reports, the identities or characteristics of the two suspects. the suspect in the killing of richard rowe is 6' tall, 180 pounds, blonde, and freckles. that's the description. and the suspect in the daniel

dole case is 6' tall, 180, and black. so we want you to put those descriptions out to help people help the police department find the people responsible, right? >> right. >> ogletree: right? you said that softly. >> no, absolutely. >> ogletree: okay, all right. >> any objective identifying characteristic, when you're searching for something, is very important to assist you in your search. >> ogletree: and you're sure the publisher, mr. greenman, will put those details in his paper? you know, talk to john. >> well, i know that there are opinions that go both ways as far as the press goes. but the purpose of what we're trying to accomplish, what the police are trying to accomplish, is to locate people against whom there is evidence that they committed these two crimes. and it's important to assist both the police and the citizens if they happen to see the suspect to notify the police, that complete descriptions-- as complete as possible-- be communicated through your paper. are you willing to do that?

>> well, it's interesting. it's a conversation that i've had with the editor. and the editor is convinced that when we have a good-quality composite sketch that is based on observed information, that that's really a tool to help the community identify people. but if it's simply a verbal description as you've described, we understand it's not much help. so our policy, the editor's policy, has been, in serious crimes, where there are people at large, to run these sketches if they're based on observation but not to run a description. >> ogletree: all right. mr. amoss, you agree with the publisher here? i know your job's in jeopardy, but, i mean-- [laughter] here we go. >> he came close to what our actual policy is here at the belleville times. but he didn't seem to notice that you never mentioned the word "white" for one of the suspects. >> ogletree: that's right. >> you described him as blonde and freckled, which sounds to

us like a physical description. we can picture somebody, and it sort of narrows the search down. but the other, you just said, was black, and that really could mean any number of things. and he's right that that doesn't fit what we would put into the paper. >> ogletree: mr. adderton? >> i have to agree with my competitor that we would have a thorough composite before we would put anything into the paper. but the other thing is that you mentioned blonde and freckled. black people are blonde and freckled. so you don't know until you have the complete picture. >> ogletree: mr. mayor, do you say anything to these journalists to push them further, or do you agree that this could be not so helpful? >> i would encourage the editor if i had an opportunity to visit with him or if i felt that the public was in peril. and i think it's imperative that you do mention race in the suspect's description. >> ogletree: argue with him.

who disagrees with the mayor? he's saying, "we want this." you going to talk to the mayor? >> i actually agree. i think racially identification should be made in the context of a suspect still at large. absolutely. i mean, i think all this stuff about waiting for a composite and feeling kind of icky about this-- i mean, we're talking about a serious crime. the rest of the community might be imperiled. and it seems to be, you know, just very, very important to the apprehension of a suspect. i wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it. >> mr. mcgowan, what is my race? what is my race? >> well, i'd say that you have-- >> i just asked you a very simple question. what is my race? >> african american. >> if i started speaking spanish, would my race still be african american? >> you have, i would say, afro characteristics. if you started speaking spanish-- >> i just asked you what my race is. i just asked you what my race is. what is my race if i'm speaking spanish to you? >> it's a fair point. >> answer my question. >> well, if the police think that this man-- >> what do you think my race is? >> afro-caribbean.

>> keith, i've known you for a long time, have a lot of respect for you as editor. why don't you tell us what your race is? [laughter] i've often--i can tell you what mine is. >> i'm a suspect, and i'm at large, and i'm not inclined, mr. mayor, to call you up and tell you what my race is. [laughter] >> ogletree: because he fits the profile. he's 6', 180 pounds. >> actually, sir, i now wear a kaffiyeh, and i speak arabic. what is my race? >> well, i'm not going to make a presumption about your race. >> somebody's making a presumption, because you've got a suspect description in a newspaper. >> the description that i asked the newspaper to put in was skin color, not race. >> i didn't hear the skin-color description. >> skin-color characteristics. and so however it wants to be described as flesh color-- as medium brown, as dark brown, however--but it is the physical characteristic that is important to the police agency to-- >> but we said that we weren't going to run a verbal description, that our standard is, we would run a good

composite sketch based on observation, where it's really just a matter of what you look like rather than the words that are used to describe it. >> you don't have a sketch. >> we don't, so we're not going to run the information. >> even as the suspect is still at large. >> sure. >> well, i think that would be derelict. >> i agree. i agree. >> well, that's a difference in policy. >> absolutely. >> ogletree: mr. shannon? >> the police come to us-- and this has happened many times--with the description of an at-large suspect. the suspect is at large. the community, as you said earlier, could be in peril. it's time to look out and try to find these folks instead of being concerned about political correctness-- >> it's not political correctness. everybody asks newspapers to put all sorts of information in. one of our standards is, we apply news judgment. if that earned media doesn't work for you, we also strongly believe in commercial free speech. and the mayor or the police chief is willing to buy space in the paper, bring us some revenue, and can run whatever description that they want

on another option. >> john, i think that kind of thinking is why a large part of the public really takes a great deal of what your newspaper says about race with a grain of salt and looks to alternative media for candor and honesty in the discussion of racial issues. >> ogletree: let me ask-- mr. greenman, you have this policy. to what extent have you talked to me about this policy? i live in belleville. i'm concerned about crime. i'm a citizen. i pay taxes. i want to know if two people who committed homicides are at large on the street. i want to know as much as i can. do you care what i'm interested in? how have you made this policy without even taking my views and my concerns into consideration? >> i think we do take your concerns into consideration. >> ogletree: i want to know every detail you have for my safety, for my family's safety, and to avoid being called in. >> right. >> ogletree: i could be hauled in. tell me what you're looking for. >> we have, you know, maybe some difference of opinion about sort of where we are

as the gatekeeper in terms of the culture. we think that if we simply respond to people's basest interests, then we can just sort of race to the bottom with everybody else. we say, "no, we're going to sort of prop it up on a higher ledge and"-- >> ogletree: why is it a base interest? my interest is my safety, my security, my family's safety, my family's security, my business' safety. >> we don't think it'll contribute to your safety to publish that information. >> ogletree: why not? >> well, we just don't believe that is-- >> ogletree: you are the gatekeeper. >> yeah, we are, and we don't think that running those descriptions is going to help anyone capture these two perpetrators. >> ogletree: all right. dr. mason? >> there's nothing wrong with describing people. the problem is that, you know, given our psychosis in this country, when a reporter looks at a white person, they see freckles. they see a nose. but when they look at black people, generally, then see 5'10", t-shirt,

jeans, short hair. and it's always the same description. and it's not just in the context of reporting, but it's really in the context of life that if you and i had on jeans in a elevator, what they would see is black. so i guess it's difficult for them to describe us in the same way, because they don't see us in the same way. >> ogletree: this is not an easy issue, because what bill mcgowan's trying to do is to be as thorough as possible. jim shannon's trying to be as thorough as possible. >> no, they're not. >> ogletree: and to be helpful. >> they're not trying to be as thorough as possible, because there is nothing precise about describing someone as black. >> ogletree: that's what the witness-- the witness said "black." they're reporting what they've found. >> let's step this back a little bit. the police are, we presume here, in the best position to let the public know what is in the best interest of solving-- >> that is your presumption. >> well, i would say that, you know, your presumption is that this somehow is some kind of--there's some kind of racist implication

for releasing this information. the police are in the position-- well, you know, for a long time for investigating these things, tend to think that they help. >> now, the police, in fact, have been long in the business of racial profiling too. police have been in lots of different businesses through the years. i do not use the word "racist," and you didn't hear me use it today. but i do say that there is nothing journalistically precise, fundamental to what we do, about calling someone "hispanic." >> ogletree: why are you so thin skinned about a journalist trying to report what they know? and you're prepared to draw some conclusions that this may be racially sensitive. they're trying to give the public information. that's what journalists do. >> i am also a stakeholder in this decision. i don't know what race you are, but i am black. my son is black. my son is a black male. he's 16 years old. when he gets into a car on friday night and goes to the mall with his other three black male friends and the police or the newspaper or the television station releases a description that is that thin,

the possibility that my black male son and his three black male friends are going to get pulled over by police at night in a situation where their chances, then, of being harmed increase astronomically for doing nothing but being black male, then that description is harmful to me and my children. and we are equal stakeholders as all of the other citizens that you're describing. the fact of the matter is, the police have more information. and if they don't, if they are not asking the witness, when the witness says that the suspect was black, to tell them more information, then they are derelict in their jobs. and our newspapers ought to be holding them accountable for that imprecision, not just publishing it like a bunch of lap dogs. >> but they may not have more detailed information than what a suspect--a witness caught on the fly. >> then they are not doing their jobs, because a witness doesn't just see the color black. >> ogletree: mayor, what's your final take on this? >> well, even though our city

has a diminished budget compared to last year, i feel compelled-- i'm going to have to take, regrettably, an ad in the local newspaper to give a full description of the perpetrator or perpetrators, because the editors have chosen not to give the full description that our police department and my police chief feels is important in apprehending the suspect. >> ogletree: now, a lot goes on in belleville. fortunately, both of the suspects are apprehended and prosecuted. that story gets a lot of coverage. the multiplex is doing exceptionally well, dr. mason. it has been very successful. it has brought traffic and teenagers and all of that, but it's doing well. and it's doing so well that your son, craig, who has worked with you for a number of years in the business but also has a journalism background, is thinking about going into journalism. and, in fact, he has an interview with the publisher,

mr. greenman. mr. greenman, forget about his background. but he's an african american with some journalistic background, some business background. and you're filling a couple of vacancies. are you interested in mr. freeman? >> i'm sure i'm going to send his resume and his clips down to the editor and say, you know, "i've met craig freeman. young man has worked in business, is interested in coming into the newspaper. african american, local." >> ogletree: jim amoss, he tells you all that. what do you say? our candidate here is smart, articulate, local, capable, terrific potential. does race matter? >> yes, race matters. >> ogletree: would you have a conversation with him where race would matter? would he know that race matters to you? >> i would have a conversation with him. whether race would matter in the conversation, i'm not sure. the fact that he's the son of an advertiser of the newspaper is something that's going through my mind. >> ogletree: jim, jim, jim, jim, jim, jim, jim. [laughter]

come on, now. the first thing you said is, race matters. and then you tell me you wouldn't talk to him about it. what's going on here? it does matter, right? but you can't have a conversation with a potential employee who's black--you can't discuss it with him. >> no, no, i didn't say that. >> ogletree: well, let me-- >> jim, as your lawyer, i would suggest that you consult with the e.e.o.c. guidelines on interviewing before you answer that question. >> ogletree: it's too late; it's on tape. [laughter] but talk to craig. i mean, the point is that craig has great potential. i understand his father's connections, but i'm going to put that aside. but you have an issue. you don't have a staff that reflects the city's diversity. that's a fact. craig, talk to him, and ask him if your race matters. he's very interested. talk to him. >> i'm really interested in the paper. i've had a long interest in journalism. one of my concerns is, do you have any other black reporters working on your staff? >> not enough.

>> when you say "not enough," what does that mean? >> well, it means that my goal is for the belleville times to truly reflect belleville. i think that the newspaper, if it wants to address a diverse readership, should have a diverse staff. >> now, i want to be a reporter, and so i'd do some homework before i'd come to talk to you, and so i found out that a lot of the african-american reporters that used to work for the newspaper have moved on. and so people that i may work with are no longer there. so i'm just concerned that, you know, you have people that come in, and then they leave a couple years later. is this going to be a place that i can stay? >> well, i hope it is, craig, but, you know, you really shouldn't be asking me that question, because i'm going to give you my point of view, which is that, you know, it's a wonderful newspaper at a place where you'll feel comfortable. but why don't you talk to some of the other staff members and see if you feel comfortable? >> now, mr. amoss, i don't want to get locked in to only covering black issues because i'm a black reporter. can i cover other issues besides black issues

for your paper? >> well, craig, if you want to make up your mind about our newspaper, you really should look at the pages of the newspaper itself. i think they're the best evidence of what our intent is. and if you look in those pages, you'll see that here at the belleville times, we cover all of our community. you'll see pictures of people of all ethnic backgrounds and racial descriptions getting married in our pages. you'll see them playing sports. you'll see them getting elected to political office. and we'd like our staff to reflect the diversity of the community we cover. >> ogletree: interesting, craig. i listened very carefully. i don't think he answered your question. did he answer your question? >> i don't think he did. i mean, i'm concerned that i'm only going to get a chance to cover things in the black community. and if i'm going to grow as a reporter, i want to cover everything. >> ogletree: mr. greenman, he's one of your prime candidates. he's the only african american in that pool of four people you're looking at. two white men, one white woman, and craig. and he is as good

as the other candidates you're looking at. does he get-- >> in fact, if the market's operating as i understand it does, craig's in line to probably get the offer and get a better offer than some of the other candidates. >> ogletree: what do you mean, a better offer? >> well-- >> ogletree: you might have to pay him a little more? >> yeah, you might have to pay craig some more, because he may be in more demand than the other candidates that are in the pool. >> ogletree: is that a racial tax or a racial benefit? what is that? >> well, there's something to that. i mean, if the newspaper industry has this goal of parity in terms of the population and we know that pipeline's not satisfying that, plus there are these retention problems that are making the matter even worse, then, in particular, african-american reporters are at a premium. and people are willing to pay for that premium, pay that

premium in the same way they're willing to pay premiums for scarce resources anywhere else. >> ogletree: and, craig, you're happy to be paid more, i'm sure. >> honestly, i'm a little concerned. more money is always great. but if i'm going to get more money than the reporters that work next to me, i worry about the way they're going to think about me-- >> ogletree: oh, they won't mind! ask them. [laughter] steve, bill, and jim and lori, you guys are all on that paper. john's just introduced craig, the new reporter who's been hired. you guys know the scuttlebutt. he's paid about 10% more than you with a little less experience. you know about the issue. are you guys going to have a discussion about this? >> has craig already taken the job? because before you decide on that, i can assure you that you get more dates in tv than you do in newspaper. [laughter] >> ogletree: he's taken the job. tell me what's going on here. >> well, i think there are two things that come to my mind right away-- is that i'm glad that the door is opening for a member of a minority group at a news

organization that may have had a hard time in the past bringing people in or giving a hard time to people who wanted to get in. i wish that door was opening up on someone whose daddy didn't set up the interview. >> ogletree: mm-hmm. well, let's take that fact away. >> okay. >> ogletree: let's take that fact away. the point is that he's getting paid more than you. now, can you have an honest discussion right here about that? steve, does it bother you? >> i'm going to have a discussion with my brilliant city editor, keith woods, and ask whether or not it wasn't time to bump my salary 10%. >> well, steve, i'm sure that you've been paying a lot of attention to the economy and to the layoffs and other kinds of cutbacks-- >> ogletree: uh-oh, layoffs. you may be going in a very different place now. >> so to bump up everyone's salary would probably, in the end, cost somebody else a job. >> ogletree: whoa, that's serious. steve, are you silent? >> i wasn't suggesting you bump up everyone else's salary. [laughter]

>> ogletree: come on, now. >> well, this is one of the things that-- >> ogletree: is anybody outraged? >> within the logic of diversity, it makes sense. but if you challenge that logic and say, "well, just because the guy is african american doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be a better reporter," i think that if you're-- and give you better access to communities. i mean, i think what we do is very idiosyncratic. it depends on personal talents, skills, and character of the individual reporter. >> ogletree: keith, what are you going to do here to keep this team together? >> what i'm going to do is first become much clearer in my goals. and simply hiring someone because i like the color of his skin-- and i'm going to insist that we raise the standard of that question and raise the communication in our newsroom around that hiring so that-- >> ogletree: you've been doing that for a long time. the staff still looks the same. you've been having discussions. people are going to conferences. but you have to do something, as i hear john saying, dramatic to get beyond just talk

and commitment. you have to make a difference. >> but the dramatic thing that i'm doing here is taking a good candidate who has demonstrated to me an interest in and a capacity for getting into a community. and i am making him a higher offer than i might be making somebody else who didn't have those skills and didn't bring that to the table. >> ogletree: but, jim, just to ask you, are you worried about the cost of that progress when you think about that family of journalists you've brought in on your watch as a managing editor? >> well, this isn't the first time that my city editor, keith, and i have decided to incur that kind of a cost in order to achieve a news staff goal. and keith has persuaded me that craig is--brings to the table journalistic assets that we really need in our newsroom. so i think it's worth-- >> ogletree: you're prepared to make the tough decision. >> i am. >> ogletree: great, terrific. and i think it's important

that now that you've made that decision that you should speak to lisanne, who is also a journalist and who's been working at the paper. and she is the white female who was in line for this position. but you hired her brother. you want to talk to the managing editor, lisanne? >> well, i don't know if i'd necessarily disclose the information that he was going to get paid higher than me, because i've been doing great work for you forever, and i've never gotten a raise. and now i've heard through the grapevine, even though you didn't tell me personally, that he's coming in, walking off the streets, and now he's getting paid more. is it 'cause he's a guy? what's the deal? >> well, lisanne, i hope you've been listening to all these speeches that keith has been making about the team spirit he's trying to create in the newsroom. >> right. >> and i would think that you would welcome your brother. >> oh, of course i do. i just hope that everyone else does, as well. >> ogletree: lisanne, you think you're paying a cost because you're white and female now? this is what you were concerned about at the beginning, wasn't it? >> well, i think that-- definitely, i know that if i go to apply for a job and they do need a minority within there, that i might not

get hired. and that's just part of business. i understand that life isn't always fair, and i'm just going to have to deal with that. i feel that sometimes it's like we've been making all these assumptions tonight. i find that, automatically, the story with my dad being a prominent businessman, that automatically everyone just assumed that it's about race. and i don't really find that my generation feels that as much. i know i don't, and i personally don't really appreciate how, all of a sudden, it just creates more problems. and we talk about diversity. we're really not becoming more diverse. we're really segregating each other more, and it's like, what are you going to solve by making race the main issue if you do, if you make the story "what's race got to do with it?" if you make that the story, what do you want to come out of that? what good's going to come out of segregating everyone like that and making it an issue? >> ogletree: well, you know, your father's been so proud of you as a journalist. a little surprised that craig's left the business to go work for the newspaper. so you guys--at dinner-- he doesn't know about this discussion today, the offer to craig and that you're passed over. you want to tell your father

the good news and the bad news to see how your father and your brother react to this? you want have this conversation of what happened today? >> dad, well, brother craig and i are going to be working together, so that will bring the family a little bit closer together. but, also, he's going to get a raise, and i'm not, and i just have been working there a lot longer, and i really just don't understand. >> well, daughter-- >> ogletree: i can't help you, dad. [laughter] don't look here. >> i'll call jim and see what's going on there. but you have to understand how capitalism works. in a market economy, if you're a rare commodity and mobile, you tend to get paid more. you're a bright young lady, and you're good at what you do. if you're unhappy with the situation and if it's not working out for you, then let's look at some other opportunities out there in the market. that's the nature of capitalism. >> ogletree: that's very interesting. mr. adderton, that doesn't sound like a conversation an african-american father

would have with his african-american son or an african-american daughter. i'm hearing dad say, "accept it, and move on." is that the conversation you think would happen at a dinner table? or might there be a little outrage? or should there be a little outrage? >> yeah, there'd be a little bit more color in the dialogue. i think dad could have addressed it a little bit more forcefully. in fact, he should have told them, "come to the dickenson daily news, where we pay people what they're worth. we don't have a dual pay scale." >> ogletree: craig, what do you say to your sister? she has a right to be upset about this. you want to talk to her? you know, she urged you to come here to sort of shepherd you in. and you've taken her slot in many respects. talk to her. >> i understand you're upset, and i understand your concern. i don't think you understand that there's a difference between when you walk into the newsroom and when i walk into the newsroom. there are other women in the newsroom, and so there are people that look to you,

for whatever reason, and say, "lisanne's okay." it sounds like, in the newsroom, i may be one of very few black men there. and so i'm going to have to deal with things on a daily basis that you don't even have to consider. and it's sad to say that i should get more money for that, but i'm going to have to do more work to get the same acceptance that you do. and so i should get paid more for it. >> but why do you feel that way about it? i mean, we've been raised together in the same family here. we've been raised with the same morals and values. why are you going to make the assumption, clearly, that i don't have to work as hard as you do? i think we have to work equally as hard. and i just don't think that's right that i'm just put on the back burner and you're just going to automatically tell me to deal with it like that. i mean, how are we any different except the color of our skin? you don't want me to judge you, and you don't want to be judged that way. yet you're saying you need to get it a little easier because of that? i don't understand. >> ogletree: it's amazing, 'cause i can hear dr. mason. i don't have his complete text, but i can hear him saying, "gee, i wish mom were here." [laughter]

this is a family, you know, that started off so happy and pleased that you were going to be successful. it had nothing to do with race. it was a wonderful story about opportunity in belleville. now your own family is involved in a racial turmoil. can you clear this up? >> we'll keep the family together. and i would try to explain to my children that we don't always get to choose the hand that's dealt us. we live in a country that has a history, and there's a reality to race and race issues in america. i would caution my son not to think that he was hired just because he was black. he is hired because they want to have the best newspaper they can possibly have. and it can't be accurate, and it can't be honest and fair unless it has the breadth of perspective of its readership. so in that sense, they need to have a person like him on their staff. and in this reality,

in this economy that we live in, he's competitive. >> ogletree: let me finally just say, if we step back from all of this and look at belleville, in just a sentence or two, lori dorfman, what is the image that belleville conveys now? when you see belleville-- and looking at these series of stories and serials, what does belleville represent to you? >> well, belleville's getting more complicated and more complex, and that's good. that's a good thing. there's going to be a bigger variety of stories that will be told. and as citizens in belleville, we'll have better information to make our decisions with. >> ogletree: steve magagnini, what does belleville represent to you as you reflect on what we've gone through today? >> well, i think it seems to be a fairly good reflection of a lot of communities in america that are undergoing change and are trying to grapple with a range of issues and trying to find ways

to diversify and level the playing field, at the same time balancing the concerns of the folks that were already in place. >> ogletree: and keith woods, what does belleville represent to you? >> it represents the opportunity to have a higher-level conversation about these issues than tends to happen, an opportunity to move beyond the kind of simplistic and false dichotomies that tend to define discussions about race and discussions about ethnicity in this country. >> ogletree: and donald, from your point of view, what does belleville represent to you? >> it's a human mosaic that we often take for granted, we don't get to know. and it's crying out for communication and to building that human mosaic into one strong community. >> ogletree: dr. mason, what does belleville represent to you? >> oh, it was a conversation

about america, where we have a gorilla at dinner, and people either want to act like it's not there or are afraid to talk about it in an honest way. >> ogletree: okay, and, john, what does belleville represent to you? >> i'm reminded of ellis cose's observation that discussions about race are too often shouts and whispers. >> ogletree: and, bill, you've written a lot about this, thought a lot about it. and you've had a lot of interesting and provocative ideas. having the chance to look back, step back and look at belleville, what's the message for belleville, and what's the message for journalists? what's the message for america? >> well, i think belleville represents the increasing racial and ethnic complexity of america. and it also stands out as a great opportunity for a newspaper whose candor and sense of complexity matches that of the city itself. captioning and audio description

provided by the u.s. department of education. captioning and audio description by captionmax www.captionmax.com >> announcer: funding for what color is the news? was provided by the ford foundation, a resource for innovative people and institutions worldwide.

>> every family has their family favorite recipes, and our family is no different. so, today, i'll share with you our family's favorite recipes. [theme music playing] tutti a tavola a mangiare! at cento fine foods, we're dedicated to preserving the culinary heritage of authentic italian foods by offering over 100 specialty italian products for the american kitchen.