>> hinojosa: it's the fifth largest country in the world, and it's becoming a major player in the global economy. but beyond carnivale, samba, and soccer, what do we really know about brazil? today, a conversation with the director of the brazil institute at the woodrow wilson center, paulo sotero. i'm maria hinojosa. this is one on one. paulo sotero, you are the head of the woodrow wilson center's brazil institute in washington, dc, longtime journalist covering the united states for brazil. and i just have to ask you, you know, so many people think about brazil as being this faraway

tropical country, you know, far, deep in the south. but in fact, brazil is a growing superpower. it's gone through an extraordinary transformation in the past 20 years. so the last time that i was there was 1997. if i was to go back to rio or sao paolo now, would i see a difference? what would i see? >> you would see a country whose people is more comfortable with the current... its current situation. there is a sense of hope that has been restored to the country compared to that time. that was the time when we had established democracy, reestablished democracy, but we were entering the period of economic stability. democracy and economic stability have been the two pillars upon which two brazilian governments,

the government led by president fernando henrique cardoso and the government led by president luiz inacio lula da silva, built the current reality of brazil, which is a promising reality. >> hinojosa: a promising reality. and yet, you know, i think back to the first time that i was in brazil, in 1982, and if you were a supporter of lula, if you were a member of the pt, the partito dos trabalhadores, the workers party, you basically were living in fear from being arrested, from being somehow tied to lula. and then he becomes president. >> yeah, that is the beauty of democracy. in 1982 lula had just formed the workers party that... >> hinojosa: he was a union organizer. >> a union organizer in '79. >> hinojosa: very much from the people. >> from the people, from... a migrant worker from the northeast. >> hinojosa: he was a shoeshine

boy. >> shoeshine boy, and then he was sort of a mechanic in the auto industry in the outskirts of sao paolo, a very intelligent man that finished high school in this ged kind of program, and led the strikes against... in the auto industry in the late '70s. >> hinojosa: he was a big lefty. i mean, he was a... was he a socialist? there was a time when lula da silva was a socialist. >> he was a catholic. his main drive was social justice. the lula marxist, the lula leftist, the lula that acquires this language, is a later lula. the lula of sao bernardo do campo is the man that reinvented the unions in brazil that used to be controlled by the communist party. the communist party used to hate lula because he introduced the

sort of us model of unions in brazil, saying that, you know, "i want results. i want cars. my members need to have a better life." >> hinojosa: so it was about increasing productivity, in a sense. >> increasing productivity, increasing benefits. real, concrete benefits for workers. >> hinojosa: and he was criticized from the left because he wasn't revolutionary enough. >> he was not revolutionary in the sense of an armed struggle. we had had some of that in brazil. he was criticized by the communists. but he was... some businessmen started to pay attention to him, because he wanted to negotiate. he wanted truly to sit down and take their concerns into consideration as long as they took into consideration the concerns of the workers. >> hinojosa: so there were many years there where again brazil was kind of seen as this, you know, struggling, indebted, very unequal... you know, a superpower maybe in the sense

because they had a lot of resources. but what is the thing that has helped brazil now be one of these places where, at least in terms of american investors, they're looking at brazil and saying, "wow, we could make a lot of money if we start investing in brazil, of all places"? >> well, americans have always invested in brazil. you know, ford motor company, gm, had been in brazil forever. general electric, all those companies. now, what has happened in brazil is that in the '90s we figured out how to beat inflation, and we figured out how to make a market economy work in brazil, a country where the state has always had a very important presence, and a positive presence. the initial sort of productive system in brazil, industry, et cetera, was built by the state in brazil. in the '90s, we start to reform,

we start to make the system work more efficiently. president cardoso is responsible for that. he put down the foundations for what lula continued. >> hinojosa: which is interesting, because as a student of latin american studies when i was in college in the 1980s, i was reading fernando henrique cardoso. he was an intellectual who was talking about how to develop underdeveloped countries. is his... is cardoso's legacy, and then lula's legacy, what essentially created this foundation for brazil to be lifted out of this kind of third world... >> i believe historians of the future will study this period, and they'll see that cardoso and lula were parts of the same moment. it's interesting-- a member of the brazilian elite, cardoso, a member of... a man of the people, lula, that becomes president.

and lula becoming president in a stable... economically stable brazil was very important. and lula having been a successful president is absolutely important for brazil, because for the first time-- and here i repeat what cardoso said as president, but based on what he's learned as a sociologist-- brazil is not an underdeveloped country. brazil is just an unjust country. a sense... it's very powerful to have a person like lula, a migrant worker, that comes from the poor, that builds... reinvents himself in this very unequal situation socially. and that helps, eventually, the country to adopt or to consolidate a system that is basically, you know... >> hinojosa: capitalism. >> capitalism.

it took two socialists in brazil to consolidate capitalism. >> hinojosa: that's, i guess, kind of when i was stuck, when you said, you know, that basically what's happening is that brazil has moved into capitalism. because it's true. cardoso and lula were from the left. >> yes. >> hinojosa: so is this a new left in terms of the world order? what does... and let me just start... actually world order small scale, because brazil, when you think about it, is surrounded by countries that are not as... not at all as developed as brazil. i mean, you have guyana, you have suriname, you have bolivia. colombia, venezuela, more developed. so what is the relationship now in terms of south america? >> you know, one of the qualities of brazil, brazilian diplomacy-- this is for 100 years-- is to have... maintain

very good relations with neighbors. we are one of the few countries on earth that has eight neighbors. one of the reasons we are good diplomats is because not only we have the temperament for democracy... we are great negotiators. i think it comes from our portuguese soul. but it's also because we had to. we had eight neighbors, neighbors that were very frequently fighting among themselves. so... >> hinojosa: so is brazil also thinking now, "we have eight neighbors, we're very wealthy, we're developing, our economy is growing," you're going to have an immigration problem? >> no. we have already started. you have 100,000 immigrants from bolivia. that's one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere. brazil... it's the longest border brazil has with any country, is bolivia. now, how we go about this, i think we're doing it quite competently. of the 100,000 illegal

immigrants that arrived from bolivia in the past few years, 80,000 are or are in the process of being legal residents of brazil. the challenge for brazil, you know, as we continue to prosper, we are going to probably become economically even more important than we are now. we are 60% of the economy of south america. we are likely going to become 65 and 70% in the next ten years. now, the challenge is to make our... to share our prosperity so we can help countries like bolivia, about ten million people, paraguay, about five million people. those are countries that are completely dependent on the brazilian economy. also, argentina and peru and colombia and all the countries in the amazon, we have to be wise, to share this prosperity.

how we'll do this? integrate our economies. build more infrastructure, more roads, more contacts. we can benefit from that, and they can benefit from our development. >> hinojosa: okay. but at the same time, you're talking about brazil now geopolitically. it's not just its relationship in terms of latin america. but you're also talking about brazil making relationships now with the bric, which is the brazil russia india china coalition. you have brazil having lots of conversations with iran. you have brazil having conversations with chavez in venezuela. so, you know, where do you see brazil as a geopolitical character? >> i think it's a work in progress. brazil... i don't... i would not characterize brazil as a superpower. i would characterize china as a potential superpower. the only superpower is still the united states. now, brazil is an emerging

power, is an important global player. there are issues of interest to the world. go talk about agriculture. you cannot have a reasonable conversation about agriculture without talking to brazil, because brazil is the most productive agricultural nation on earth. you cannot have a reasonable conversation, an intelligent conversation, about climate change without brazil at the table. about increasing the international security, president lula tried in 2010 to have a say on how to bring iran to the conversation. it was a failed attempt. it did not work. but brazil... we believe in brazil that we have a vocation to promote peace. and we can, i think, be a positive presence in the world. it depends on how we use our assets. but brazil has, under president lula... it started with cardosa,

continued, was deepened by president lula, two leaders that, by the way, were the people that introduced presidential diplomacy in brazil, because they had the capacity and they had the talent to do that. and brazil is sort of emerging, and we are in the very process of finding our place, and where we can better advance our interests. >> hinojosa: but you know that there are people who are going to say, "well, that's wonderful that..." and while brazil is not, as you say, a superpower, but it is a growing... a growing power that can't be forgotten. but there are people who say, "well, brazil now has more millionaires than india." >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: and brazil's middle class has grown. >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: but how does brazil manage its own... you're talking about an international scale. but within its own boundaries of inequality, slavery, destroying the environment, the amazon, indigenous people... >> by dealing with those issues.

and this is what we have been doing. i think that, you know, there is an awareness of brazil... you talk to brazilian diplomats, and they will tell you, you can project abroad only what you are. you know, you think about the united states today, the united states is a country in relative decline. there are issues that united states had resolved, and are back, like growing inequality. brazil is still building and trying to resolve that, making progress. about 30 million people in brazil that used to be lumped with the ranks of the poor now belong to the ranks of the lower middle class. talk to people from proctor and gamble, and other american companies. they are absolutely in love with brazil. they are building their... their business in brazil are going up 30% a year. why? because brazilians are having access... you know, more and more brazilian consumers. >> hinojosa: it's really extraordinary. some of the meat packing industry now... brazil has the largest... is the largest meat packing producer, or one of the

largest? >> the largest meat producer. >> hinojosa: meat producer? >> we have... we joke and we say that we have as many people as we have cows. we have 200 million cows in brazil. we are one of the major companies in the meat packing industry in this area. now in the united states is a brazilian company. >> hinojosa: and you have now uncovered vast oil deposits that are extraordinary. >> and this is another challenge, because we are the country that has the best energy matrix on earth. 47% of all energy consumed in brazil comes from renewable sources. >> hinojosa: so let's just say that again, because i think it's important for people to hear that. 47... almost half of the energy used in brazil is produced with renewable sources. >> yes, compared to about 7% in the industrialized world. now, why is that? because of hydroelectric electricity for houses, for

industry, et cetera. comes in part from that. 80% of the electricity used in brazil comes from hydro. we have also a new industry which is sugar cane ethanol, which is a carbon reducing activity that has made gasoline an alternative fuel in brazil. most cars that you see in the streets in the cities and the roads are using ethanol, not gasoline. so... and also, in the process of making ethanol, you produce a lot of electricity, because we burn the gas of the sugar cane to power the mills, and the mills use only one-third of that energy. the rest goes to the grid. now, the question for us now is to integrate this new wealth that we have, this pre-salt province, this is offshore.

we have found enormous reserves of gas on shore also. it's to integrate all this into a strategy where brazil can keep its clean energy matrix. it's not an easy task, and it's the challenge of a country that has an abundance of energy resources in a very diverse... >> hinojosa: shouldn't everybody be so lucky, to have an abundance of energy sources? but most people have a sense of brazil... maybe they don't know so much about the economic development and the kind of boom, but they do know that there are confrontations, that there is a real struggle going on in every way in terms of the environment, in terms of the indigenous, in terms of the black population. >> yes.. we have... let me talk about the amazon a little bit. about what, 15, 20% of the brazilian population live in what we call the legal amazon,

which takes about half of the territory. so up to 30, 40%... 40 million people. now, in brazil in the last 30 years, there has been a complete change in the way we think about the amazon. the amazon is now... is increasingly... i think the protection levels are increasing. deforestation has decreased. it has not disappeared. it's still a problem. but more and more people, especially people from the agricultural sector, is realizing that we need to keep the amazon there, not only because we... not because we are tree huggers. we are not. but because the amazon is the physical element that controls the rain patterns in brazil. the amazon... >> hinojosa: but if you say that there's an understanding that's different, then why in the news are we always hearing that still

the issue around the amazon is a battle, and, you know, that it is not being protected? >> in part... here is a criticism for the rest of the world. in part because it's easy to talk about protection of the environment in the amazon than protection of the environment in their own countries. you know, brazil is somewhat used for that purpose. everybody becomes a wonderful environmentalist in the amazon. try to concentrate part of that energy where you live, whatever country you are. >> hinojosa: sounds like you're not so happy when you have so many outside environmentalists coming in. >> no, no, no. we are welcoming the environmentalists, et cetera. but just to make, you know, a point that let's work together in the amazon, et cetera, but... >> hinojosa: but don't come here and tell us what we need to do. >> you know, we know what we need to do. it's a matter of resources, and we work in cooperation with foreign governments, with foreign individuals. that's not the problem. but just to make... you know, let's not make the amazon... actually, i don't know if the

amazon is the major environmental problem in brazil. i am from the south. i think industrial pollution is as big a problem for brazilians. now, the amazon has an impact internationally, in the world environment, and it is not only important for brazil to preserve for the reasons i mentioned to you. we need to preserve the amazon to keep our agriculture productive in the south. the amazon is what gives us the reins that helps to make brazilian agriculture, along with other issues, other elements, a very productive one. we need also to do that because environmental policy, in my view, is a ticket for world leadership. brazil is a country that has... >> hinojosa: and do you believe that that's kind of also become part of the tone that brazil is setting, which is, "we understand that in order to be

world leaders we must be completely respected on the issue of the environment"? >> yes. we have to be credible. for instance, in the election that happened last year, the leader of the environmental movement in brazil was a very successful candidate, got 20% of the election, for bringing those issues to the table. a pew research center that was concluded in 2010 has shown that the brazilian people is the people that worries most in the world about climate change. >> hinojosa: really? >> 84% of brazilians think that climate change is a serious issue. >> hinojosa: is that because so much of it is talked about? >> yes. and because, you know, there is an awareness that we have, you know, all this wealth. this is ours, the amazon is ours, and also of eight countries that share the amazon with us. and we have here a resource that's very precious.

the threat to the amazon today, you're talking about cattle, cattle ranching. there is now in the amazon cities, et cetera, that want to have the green seal of approval. >> hinojosa: let me ask you before we finish, paulo, because in... even in the area of boston, where we record this show, you have a large population of brazilians. you have... they produce 20 local papers, magazines. you have a large population, somewhat large, in new york, connecticut, florida. do you think that you have a population now that is looking at brazil and saying, "when i left, brazil was a struggling economy, and now i'm in the united states, the united states is a struggling economy, maybe i should go back to brazil"? >> the immigrants, the brazilians that live here, have a much better chance if they go back to brazil now. why? because, although there are still problems, there are

opportunities. for instance, brazilians that left brazil for economic reasons, that came to the united states, and some of them were very successful, they studied, they improved, will have, if they go back, and their children, if they go back with more of an ambition, et cetera, will probably find better opportunities now than existed when they left. >> hinojosa: so the reality on the streets, though, you know, the street children. that movie pixote, you know, all of those images, it still exists. >> oh, sure, it still exists. >> hinojosa: and so how can lula's term, or ending of his term, be seen as a success when you still have that kind of poverty? >> no, president lula will enter history a successful president, the most popular president of brazil. and i think he will remain there. but, you know, public safety is a major issue in brazil. it's a major issue associated

with narcotraffic, so we have to be more intelligent in the way we go about that. but again, you know, the issues that brazil face today in this moment of promise are issues of quality of life, not only for the elites. the elites in brazil have always had a nice life. it's for we the people, the people that you see in the slums in rio. this is the people, this is the moment of promise. and you have solutions. for instance, in rio... >> hinojosa: let me just ask you before we go, though-- so, world cup coming up. >> yes. >> hinojosa: the olympics coming up. >> yes. >> hinojosa: what will those two events do to transform brazil? and tell our audience then why they should even think about finding out more, or going to brazil? >> well, i think what they do that's very good for brazil, they give us some deadlines, you know? there are some issues of mass transit, of infrastructure, that we have to resolve by the time

we start receiving, you know, foreign tourists that will come to brazil for the world cup, for the olympics. this is part... this is a good opportunity for brazil. i think it's seen in that light. and... but i think that brazil is capable of tackling those issues, as long as, you know, we know exactly who we are. we are not a superpower. we are a country that has really made a lot of progress in the last 20, 25 years in democracy, with a stable economy. we have really a very positive outlook. but it depends... the success will depend on staying focused on basically one thing-- how we treat our own people, how we educate our own people, how we make our people from consumers

into citizens. >> hinojosa: paulo sotero, thanks for giving us an eye on brazil. it's obviously time for me to go back. >> thank you very much, and i hope you'll go. >> hinojosa: we'll try. obrigada. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, maria. >> hinojosa: continue the conversation at wgbh/org/oneonone.

- [voiceover] funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by: mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. also, by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. - i'm evan smith, he's an acclaimed actor, best known for his work on the hbo series, "the wire" and "treme." his memoir, "the wind in the reeds" has just been published. he's wendell pierce, this is "overheard." (interview excerpts) - let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn? or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided, what has befallen other nations in africa and-- - you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. - no, you saw a problem, and over time, took it on. - let's start with the sizzle, before we get to the steak. are you going to run for president? - just got an 'f' from you, actually