- [voiceover] funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by: mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. also, by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. - i'm evan smith, he's an acclaimed actor, best known for his work on the hbo series, "the wire" and "treme." his memoir, "the wind in the reeds" has just been published. he's wendell pierce, this is "overheard." (interview excerpts) - let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn? or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided, what has befallen other nations in africa and-- - you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. - no, you saw a problem, and over time, took it on. - let's start with the sizzle, before we get to the steak. are you going to run for president? - just got an 'f' from you, actually - this is over.

(applause) - wendell pierce, welcome. - thank you - so nice to meet you, an honor to meet you. - the honor is mine. - and i must say, i love this book, and what i loved about it, i love many things about it, but i loved about it the most, was that it read like fiction even though it's non-fiction. it's such a literary, memoir. you've written books before, or not? - no, this is my first book. - what a debut, then! - thank you, thank you. i'm from new orleans, so the characters of my life and my family and my community, you couldn't even find them in fiction, so - right, not credible as fiction, not believable - not credible as fiction it was, something that was, very special to me, in a shapshot - [evan] intensely personal. - intensely personal. more personal than anything i've ever done before. people say that film lasts forever, but i feel as though to actually put it down on paper in a book is something that's going to be even more lasting. - now, you have an event that is the catalyst for this book,

the katrina hurricane, which we all outside of new orleans, and outside of the area that was impacted, think we understand, we think we know what happened, and we think we know what the aftermath was. but one thing that's totally clear to me is, reading this book, we don't know anything. - well, you know, you actually do. because what connects us-- - you're letting me off the hook-- - yeah, i'm letting you off the hook. - okay, good. - because across time, across space, as disparate as we may be in life, we have a common humanity that we, once you are truthful about, and once you are very authentic in expressing, people understand, it's the thing that connects us. it's the reason i'm an artist, it's the reason i'm an actor. it is the forum in which we, apply our craft. because our humaity, is classic, is something that will, it speaks to us from the past. we read shakespeare 400 years, and see it 400 years,

since its writing and it still speaks to us. and why something will last long after we're gone. and that's what the play "waiting for godot" is, by samuel beckett, this existential play about two men in this desolate land who don't know who they are, don't know where they've come from, and looking for this entity, godot, outside of themselves. then they learn in the course of the play, that they have to find it within themselves, their true meaning, and what their purpose in life is. and i did that play, because it resonated about what we were going through in new orleans. - so you went into that creative process, and that does figure into, obviously the story that is told here. - absolutely - you went into that creative process saying, "i need to somehow align my perspective on art, "or that particular piece of art "with the reality of what i'm seeing." a totally deliberate decision. - what happened in new orleans with the great flood of katrina, i would not wish on my worst enemy. i think about what's happening, to people now, whenever i see a disaster, like the windswept fires in central texas

happening right now, the mudslides happening in california. i immediately identify with it. it is a painful, painful episode in anyone's life, and i would hope that no one has to go through it. it's like a death of a family member, it's like a death of a part of you, and i realize that years from now some kid was gonna walk up to me and say, "mr. pierce, in new orleans' darkest hour, what did you do?" and i knew that i had to have a response, i'm an actor, so that's what i wanted my response to be. - you gravitate to your-- - and i said this is what i want to respond to, so we did "waiting for godot" right in the heart of the lower ninth ward where it was our ground zero-- - [evan] most devastated - it was sacred ground. it was sacred ground. thousands of people had died. hundreds of people had died, and, i knew that i wanted to respect them. and in the middle of that play, there was the most cathartic moment of my life. when my character stands there, in the midst of the desolation, and he says, "at this place, in this moment in time, "all mankind is us, let us do something

"while we have the chance." it was as if i was stepping out of character, as if i was talking to my family members of the community of new orleans who had come from all different places, in the midst of this disaster, we knew that to honor the people that had lost their lives through no fault of their own. and to really give purpose to what we were going to do with our lives, we have to rebuild our city. we have to rebuild our lives. we have to rebuild our community. so it was an awakening, and it was an epiphany for me, to act. because the art is the form where we reflect on who we are, where we've been, where we've failed, where we've triumphed. where we reflect on who we want to be. we declare our values and then we act on them. and then that's was the awakening of what the purpose of art is in my life, and in the community of new orleans. - but of course in the middle of some, tragedy, whether it's katrina or any other tragedy before or after we could name, there is often an irrational anger, but an anger.

- [wendell] yes. - "why me?" "why has this tragedy befallen me?" and there was an additional element to this which was the political complications related to katrina. how do you see past that anger, the irrational, and candidly, the rational anger. to get to a place where you can connect art to the reality of the situation on the ground, and move on? - the tools to handle those things, i realized also had been given to me through generations in my family. my family african-americans in louisiana in the south, from slavery through civil rights evolution of this country, gave a blueprint. this moses generation gave my joshua generation the blueprint. and i think of just a couple of mantras that came from my family in particular. "can't died three days before the creation of the world, "don't ever tell me you can't do something." my grandfather told me that. - [evan] is that right? - i applied that across the board especially when it comes to those who don't have, the other mantra comes to mind,

"though there are people out there "who do not have your best interests at heart." "there are people that do not have "your best interests at heart." now, it didn't say, evil white people, racists, white supremacists. they didn't say, black folk, they didn't say tall people, short people - it's not specific. - it's not specific. be vigilant about recognizing those that don't have your best interests at heart. seven days after the levees broke, and new orleans was flooded and destroyed, those people raised their ugly heads. i will say their names: james reese and ashton o'dwyer on the front page of the wall street journal said, "this is an opportunity to change this city forever." "we will get rid of the people we don't want." "we are going to change it demographically, "politically and geographically, and if it doesn't change, we are out of here." that was on september 8th. there were literally people still drowning in the water. where people are saying-- - we're gonna take this advantage-- - we're going to take advantage of this and change this city. so, as the saying goes,

"when evil people plot, good people plan." so that's when i put out a call to action to my community and said, "listen, we work too "hard to build this community, "to let someone else do it, "let's exercise our right of self-determination "and bring back our own community." we owe it to my parents' generation who fought so long and hard to create my community. pontchartrain park, where i grew up, came out of the advocacy where black folks could only go to a park one day out of the week in new orleans, on wednesday, during jim crow, in segregation. and that advocacy fought led by a.p. tureaud, a great civil rights lawyer in new orleans, and we forced the city government to actually get to a point of appeasement, it was separate but equal but, it was 200 acres, a thousand homes, it was the only place where my father coming back from world war ii after fighting in saipan could purchase a home in the post-world war ii suburbia. and that was pontchartrain park. golf course right in the middle, a thousand homes around it, and that golf course designed by joseph bartholomew, who designed most of the courses in new orleans, but couldn't play on them, because he was a black man.

so... they fought. and so, it's an american aesthetic to exercise your right of self-determiniation. and so that was the calling that i heard. so in the midst of that political action, it really comes back to art, because art is freedom and individuality within form. it's the infinite amount of notes that can be put together in an improvized jazz solo, but it comes from a finite number of notes. that's an american aesthetic, and that is demonstrated in our art. high art is a demonstration of the american aesthetic. - you mention your father. - [weldell] yes. - he is a consequential character in the telling of this story. i was just completely, he appealed to me. i just completely gravitated to your father. - amos pierce. - will you talk about him a little bit please? - my father grew up, uptown, in the calliope projects, and in gert town, new orleans. and lived with his mother, and was one

of three guys drafted to go to world war ii. and he always remembers, he always talks about when he was leaving, and being shipped out from san francisco to fight in the pacific theater. and how quiet it was, thousands of men on the back of that boat. looking at the american flag hanging from the golden gate. and the silence, knowing that some of them would not see their home again. - not come back. - he said that's what he thought about all the time while he was over there. and so when he came back, like so many soldiers, black men at that time, that were fighting the double v campaign, victory abroad and victory at home. we fight for equality and democracy, and american values abroad, and they will be on display when we return because they're not being adhered to at home. so to come back to that, he had a fierce love, has a fierce love for his country,

almost like a drunken parent says, "i love you, "but you gotta stop drinking." "i love you, but you have to change." "i'm gonna challenge you." - do you think that the second "v", victory at home has been achieved now? i understand that it would be a terrible exaggeration to say the world has not changed, but we are in the middle of a major thing, on race in this country. - absolutely - not just race and policing, not just race and incarceration. for all the progress we've made in the year that is the 50th anniversary of the voting rights act, there is still an extraordinary amount that we don't have resolved. - but you have to understand, people are trying to resolve something that's never going to be resolved, because it's a part-- - really? - it's the ugly part-- - that's the spoiler, is that we're never gonna-- - no, it's not a spoiler there's an ugly part of human nature. you know, if every, i remember that "star trek" episode, i really don't live my life by the declarations of what pop art tells us to. but remember one guy was black on one

side of his face, and white on the other side, and he was fighting this other guy who looked just like him. and then at the end of the episode you realize, everyone said, "why are you guys fighting?" he goes, "what are you talking about? "i'm black on the right side, he's black on the left side." like, "what?" people will find a distinction to have issues with. i personally believe because it's a part, sorry sound. - [evan] that's okay. - (laughs) i personally believe because that a ugly part of human nature. what happens every once in awhile is the veil is lifted and we see it, even more clearly. it has to be, an awakening and an epiphany for people when they see it for the first time. and what happens in the journey of life is we're always trying to evolve to get better. that's why we go and have these moments of trying to understand the human spirit. that's what art is about, where reflect on who we are, where we've been. so the issues that we're having with race now is understand that, this amorphic

dysfunction in our human spirit is something that we always have to be vigilant about, to catch. make it a teachable moment for people understanding it for the first time or seeing it for the first time. and changing the game when it comes to attacking it. like right now, there are people saying, the most important voices in american discussion of racial politics right now are the folks who are saying, "oh, these black guys are not making it up, "i saw it on film for the first time." "oh, i see!" actually we had an incident just last week where it happened to a white kid in michigan which i think is going to be even more evident of what those who disgrace the badge, very important, disgrace the badge, do in moments of conflict. you know,

i personally believe that that young man didn't have to die because he was being so disruptive. - easy to dismiss it when it's happening to somebody who you don't recognize. - right and all of a sudden i recognized that kid because he looks like my son, he's, you know this blond-haired, blue-eyed kid that you know, maybe, they were overreaching, maybe they were being exaggerated. so it's a constant vigilance that we have to have. - what i love about this, mr. pierce is that you are at once realistic about the fact that this is going to be a very hard problem to resolve ever, but at the same time hopeful that we can take positive things from these incidents that periodically rise up. - because i'm an artist. i'm an artist, and when you, what happens with art, is the conversation of the human existence, that we reflect on it together in a forum. what thoughts are to the individual as they twist and turn at night i always say, and reflect on what kind of man have i been, how am i going to be a better father?

what do i want to do in the future? what those thoughts are to the individual, art is the forum where we reflect on it for the community as a whole. now art, that existence of the technical proficiency with creative and expressive thought, can be in all disciplines. there is high art in politics. - yep, there is, right. that's true. - there's a man who can move populations of people by saying, "there's mourning in america." there's a poet in poland, lech walesa, who can move a totalitarian government - change history - a poet. a poet. people here remember, when in the midst of hopelessness, woody guthrie said, ♪ this land is your land, this land is my land, ♪ from california, to the new york island ♪ that gave people an aspirational hope, because it tapped into a humanity.

it is not just trivial entertainment, it is actually tapping into our consciousness as a community to reflect, and in that moment, being most like our creator. briefly as mortals, being immortal. tapping into something that actually may speak to another human being, in a place and time long after i'm gone. a piece of art that can change it. politics may change persons' behavior, art within politics can actually maybe change someone's mind. perfect example, here in texas, justice black, for the first time saw genius in the form of a black man when he heard louis armstrong in a little roadhouse bar playing back in the 20's. you can't tell me that didn't impact him when he sat on the supreme court in the middle of the 20th century, and said, "okay, we have some citizens who's saying "they're being treated like second class citizens."

"we have to look at our constitution "and make some amendments." - art has a long tail in that case. - it has a long tail. - so speaking of art, we have a certain number of minutes left. i want to pivot away from all this very important and high-minded talk, and ask you a question directly. why is bunk moreland the best character in the history of television? (laughter and applause) mr. pierce, i don't know if that was your creation, or that you and david simon worked on the contours of that character together, or if the words were already on the page, but goodness gracious, amazing. - it was a combination i have to tip my hat to david simon, he is the creator of the character, but there is a real bunk in baltimore. - [evan] please tell the story. - oscar requer, and i did my walk-alongs with him because at this point of his career he was just in the courthouse. and he regaled me with tales, and "hey, bunk", and "oh!" he'd introduce me, "i want you to meet, "he's gonna play me in an hbo series," (laughter) oh, he was very gregarious out there, so i picked that up. there were other detectives that i walked with, david's writing and all.

but i'll never forget one moment, my first day of shooting, bunk, the real bunk, drove up in his caddie with his cigar going, and he got out in the distance, and he got out the car, and he saw me working and went, (mumbles) put his cigar back in mouth, got in his car and drove off and i never called him again. (laughter) i was terrified. i shot the show for five years, going, "oh my god, this man is so embarrassed, "by what i'm doing on television." - was the character based on him in the sense that the mannerisms and the pattern of speech, and the way that he approached his job? or was there a mcnulty character, similarly based on somebody who worked with bunk? how did this all go? - it was an amalgam, because first of all, i brought that to the character. (laughter) - oh, of course, most, right. anything that was awesome about it, i get it. - the sleight of hand, the gestures, the voice, um, mcnulty was really based on ed burns our co-creator with david simon, who was a police officer, turned teacher

so that pryzbylewski was a part of him also. so bunk was an amalgam, david, some of other detectives that i researched and oscar requer himself and then at the end of the series, in the last season, someone saw me at a barber shop and said, "you know, bunk is retiring, "you better be there." i went, "oh my goodness." so i'm terrified, i go, and i see him across the room, looking at me the same way. (laughter) and so, i walk there, sheepishly. ready for my comeuppance. he looks at me and goes, "hey!, "come here, you made me a star!" it was like the prodigal son coming home. "see, that's the guy, this is t.v. bunk, "i'm the real bunk." (laughter) - could have gone the other way. - i was actually on the dais there, i had to speak at the retirement, "i've known bunk for three days, five years ago." (laughter) - does it concern you at all, maybe concern is the wrong word. you know, it's sort of like being a musician,

you had a hit 30 years ago - oh, no, not at all. - people walk down the street, they yell "alison" to elvis costello. - yeah, right. - do they yell "bunk" all the time at you? - absolutely bunk! bunk! bunk! but listen, it's gonna be the first line of my obituary, "wendell pierce, who played bunk moreland "on hbo"-- - is that right? - yes. "died at 110 today." (laughter) - hopefully, oh, my god! - so i have no problem with it. you know, if it was gilligan, it would be a different. (laughter) i feel for mr. denver. - high art!, high art! so pick your choices wisely. - bunk is not gilligan the lesson of this is that bunk is not gilligan. - i'm not going around with a little sailor hat at conventions at 75. - signing autographs - signing autographs - did you all know when you were making that show that it would be so disproportionately iconic i mean, to anything else? i would argue before or since. people still talk about that as the absolute best show ever on television. - yeah, we didn't know. it was a slow burn, i should say. i'll never forget seeing the first two episodes with andre royo and sonja sohn who played bubbles and-- - [evan] and kima.

- and kima. and we watched the first two, man i hope you're saving your money, 'cause this is going to be cancelled. (laughter) that's the first thing we said, the first thing i said. then the third season, we would shoot and then go away and it would go on the air. then we'd come back and say, "wow, people are watching." by the third season, we knew we had a cult-like following. we had to pitch the show every season to hbo. - to come back? - to come back. - i didn't know that. - david always has a final chapter in mind. and he saw it as the five years, so, and that was it. and i have tried to even convince him to do a movie and he goes, "no." it's like a good book. - [evan] it's over. - it's over, so if you want to see it again, read. but the great thing about "the wire", it's so complex that you can find something new every time. - what i also love, mr. pierce, is that it was an hbo series back when that was not, the episodic series of the sort that "the wire" was, that's much more in evidence now. - yeah, we were in the golden ages of it. - you were earlier, and interestingly, had it been a network program where the same network suits make decisions and everything, you and kima and bubbles might have been right.

- oh absolutely. - they would have said, get rid of this show. - we wouldn't have gone past the second season. - right - 'cause people weren't accustomed to-- - what would the world have been like if there had been no second or third, i mean, it seems like it changes the course of television in some ways. - it would've been, "hello, mr. evans, do you want fries with that?" (laughter) - is that right? you would've been super-sizing me? - see, now, there are four stages to an actor's career, "who is wendell pierce?" "get me wendell pierce!" "get me someone like wendell pierce." and then, "who is wendell pierce?" (laughter) - it's full circle. - it's full circle, so when i get to my fourth act, i may be in a chicken suit on sixth street, going, "come to el pollo loco down the street," and i'll go, "hey, kid, i played bunk on "the wire." then put the chicken head back on. (laughter) - i'm waiting for abc's dancing with the bunk. (laughter) - no, you will never see-- - you draw the line at that actually? - some things, i just will not do. (laughter) - i love the fact that you've put a flag in the ground on that.

we have two minutes, what are you going to do next? what is the next creative expression for you? - one of the great awakenings about this book is the process of doing this book, my co-author was rod dreher, who is a conservative - wonderful journalist, used to write for the dallas morning news, great, great journalist. - and writes for the american conservatives now - yeah, and politically your polar opposite - polar opposites. white, country guy from st. francisville, louisiana, conservative. black, city guy from new orleans, supporter of obama and dyed in the wool democrat. we got together, but we had something in common. another thing about our common humanity, we discovered and remembered in writing this book together. we had love of home, we had a love of family, and we had a love of art. and we both had home comings. and he taught me so much about writing, that we came together. i see him as a family member now, we are brothers. i actually want to go out with him

because as you said, we're polar opposites. i always tell him, "you guys don't have copyright "on family values, i had a family too." we joke about it, he goes, "wendell, you actually "wrote a conservative book." and so, we'd go back and forth. he wrote a beautiful piece. i recommend everyone getting on american conservative blog, "my brothers, black and white" that he wrote. about his awakening about discovering what happened with my family. and i bring that up because he says i wrote a conservative book and you should read your next character's autobiography. and that's clarence thomas, i play clarence thomas in an hbo film. - this is the film where kerry washington-- - plays anita hill. - is anita hill. - the one person i would like to meet-- - i want to see that right this minute. (laughter) how soon? how soon? - i don't know, it's going to be in a couple of months. - oh my god - i'll tell you, first of all, as an actor, you cannot play a character that you dislike, you find something,

the person that i'm so fascinated with at this particular moment is clarence thomas. he had such a similar background. my grandfather said, "can't died three days "before the creation of the world, "don't tell me you can't do something." his grandfather said, "can't is already dead, "i helped to bury him." and when i read that, i went-- - he's your guy - "we're connected." - [evan] amazing. - i want to meet him. i want to meet him to see where, uh, how we differ. - we'll send him a copy of this tape - yes. - they're telling me we're out of time. this has been one of my favorite half hours i've spent in years. - well, thank you. - i mean it, i've learned a lot, and i cannot be happier to have had the chance to talk to you about this stuff. - thank you very much, i really appreciate it. - and i wish you great success with this - thank you, appreciate it - thank you so much, wendell pierce! (appaluse) - [voiceover] we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at http://klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&a's with our audience and guests,

and an archive of past episodes. - captured africans in the middle of congo square on sundays, allowed to be freed from their shackles to play the bamboula, hearing the um-pa-pa of the european brass band, um-pa-pa, combining with that african six, i always love to do this demonstration, ka-ka ku, ka-ka-ka, ku-ku ka, ku, ku-ku, ka and it becomes um-bop, ba-boom ba-boom, boom, boom, bep, bu-boom, ba-boom ba-boom boom boom jazz. funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by: mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. also, by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and, by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation.