>> funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm evan smith. he's a veteran standup comedian whose ifc series "maron" is now in its third season and whose twice-weekly podcast "wtf" has made him one of the internet age's household names. he's marc maron. this is "overheard." [applause]. >> actually, there are not two sides to every issue. >> so i guess we can't fire him now. >> i guess we can't fire him now. the night that i win the emmy. >> being on the supreme court

was an improbable dream. >> it's hard work and it's controversial. >> without information there is no freedom and it's journalists who provide that information. >> window rolls down and this guy says, hey, he goes to 11:00. [laughter]. >> marc maron, welcome. >> how are you? >> nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you. >> i'm a little intimidated, i have to say. >> really? >> well, you're a great interviewer, and for those of us who do this sort of amateur interviewing, you are a professional, man, whether you know it or not. and to watch you or to listen to you do it is really inspiring. >> well, thank you. that's very flattering. i appreciate that. >> has it been hard for you to become -- five and a half years in this program now, 600 episodes. >> yeah. >> i have to believe later episodes you feel more comfortable than your earlier ones, but how has that progression gone for you? >> i don't know that i feel comfortable, necessarily. i feel more comfortable with myself. >> yeah.

>> i think that the first 200 episodes were really thinly veiled attempts at me to get celebrities to help me with my problems. [laughter]. >> look, if it works, right? >> i don't know that that's really what i planned but i think that's what was happening. and i think -- i don't think i have an interview style and i'm wary to call myself an interviewer. that's the weird thing. like i don't really have questions and sometimes i think they would help. >> you know what? but let me say this, i think it's a conversation. >> that's right. >> it's not an interrogation. >> i can deal with a conversationalist, a professional conversationalist. >> that's good. >> well, yeah, but interviews, like i've gotten mail from people who are in journalism and they're like, you know you break all the rules of journalism but you get this great stuff out of people, and i'm like, well -- >> that you wouldn't get if you went through it in a conventional way. >> well, i don't even know what that is. so maybe, you know, this whole idea of convention needs to be rethought. >> blown up. >> something. what are they? what are they? do you know them? >> the conventions? >> yeah.

>> well, it's like, you know, preparation, which you told me before you came out here -- >> that's it, just preparation? >> well, that would be one thing, right, preparation. not cursing would be another thing. [laughter]. >> that's, but, yeah. >> you are awesome at cursing. even if you don't think you're awesome at being an interviewer it's one of the podcast luxuries is you can just say whatever you want. >> yeah, you can say whatever the [bleep] you want. >> we just lost abilene and amarillo, actually. [laughter]. >> look, this is the thing i want to say -- >> we lost them a long time ago. >> is that what it is? they were already gone. this is kind of a thing now. celebrities, or people who are not traditional journalists or interviewers, playing this role. alec baldwin has a podcast. >> yeah, that went well, didn't it? >> well, it's come back, though, actually. and i think he's pretty good. not the tv program. that did not go well, but "here's the thing" podcast, like yours, sitting down with other, you know, celebrities or athletes or comedians. jeff garlin had a podcast for a while. i guess his has kind of come back too. >> i don't know. you know, jeff has an interesting approach where you'd sit and listen and jeff talk. >> right. [laughter]. >> i've done that show.

>> for that matter, baldwin also, alec baldwin is not exactly silent. >> yeah, like i do talk but i don't -- it's very odd to me. like carolla does that too. like he'll have you on and then you just literally if you do the adam carolla show it's you just looking for a window. >> where do i jump in. >> there's got to be a place here. i'm invited into the conversation. and then you jump in and he'll be like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then he'll go on with his thing. it's a hell of a style. >> i do think that one of the things about your end of it is we know you better. now you said the first 200 the "t" maybe stood for therapy in "wtf," right? >> i don't know if it was therapy. it was conversation. you know, it was the way i have conversations. >> but you're a character. you're present in all these interviews. >> yeah, well, i mean i don't know how to do it any other way. i got to stay engaged. i think that a lot of my intent is to connect with somebody in a real way. you know, a lot of these people come in to the garage or wherever i do it and i already have a relationship with them -- >> right. >> -- in my mind. and sometimes it's just them fighting against that relationship.

like i've decided who they are. >> right. >> and i will come with those assumptions and then they'll sort of chip away at them. and i'll sometimes fight them on it. i'm like no, no, you're not really like that. i think you're more like how i think you are -- >> yeah. >> -- and there's no reason to fight me on it. >> but see, but you asked about convention. that's another thing about conventions that you don't follow that i think is admirable and makes this better. you don't pretend not to have a point of view. >> no. i don't -- just anybody i like to meet, it's like what are you really going to get? >> well, charlie rose. charlie rose is the consummate, sort of down the middle, even-tempered. you know -- >> but he blathers on too about -- >> but i guess the point is charlie rose would never say to henry winkler, when i was a kid i would dress up as the fonz for halloween. >> he wouldn't? >> i'm not a leather jacket -- no, i don't think he would. i think that actually your interview of henry winkler, which is one of recent ones that you did. >> yeah. >> your fan boy aspect of it was actually the thing that made it all better to me. >> yeah, and he's a sweet guy. like, he was such a sweet -- it's very interesting, the idea of arthur fonzarelli and the

fonz. and now, like, he's just henry winkler, this very grateful -- >> writes kids' books. >> -- old man, in a way. very sweet. yeah, it's sort of mind blowing. it's kind of rewrite your childhood. >> but the point is you remember him from a time long ago. >> right. and then you meet him in real life and you're like, you're not fonzie. [laughter]. >> but see, but this is the part that i love. you know, conventional -- i mean, i pick on charlie rose, but somebody normally wouldn't, sort of, cop to that and have that be the -- >> but i don't know what they're trying to do really then. you know, i watched charlie rose a couple of times and, you know, i haven't listened to alec baldwin. and that's another reason why i don't categorize myself, really. because i don't really listen to that much stuff. >> right. >> and i don't really take in a lot of -- like, i'll listen passively to mpr. i don't listen to other podcasts. i don't compete in that way, like i wonder what charlie rose is up to. like i don't sit there at home going, oh, so this is the guy. you know, like i'm not -- i met him once. you know, he's on the cbs

morning show, isn't he? >> right. >> right, that was hilarious. those interviews are completely useless where -- [laughter]. >> they're ridiculous, man. you know, you're on a morning show and there's three hosts or four, and they all have done a little research. you got four and a half minutes. and, like, you know, one guy would go, so this thing you're doing, yeah, that's it. and then the other one's like, and what about? oh, yeah, that's it. oh, and then the third one sort of like, but your hair. and like, i know. and then it's okay we're done. >> and it's over. that's the end of it, yeah. [laughter]. >> crazy. >> that's not your show. why are you doing this as a podcast? why is this not a radio show? that's one thing i thought about. i mean, i know podcasts are very much -- >> oh, i don't know if you've heard, but radio's over. [laughter]. >> well, it is. it's over-ish. but, you know, the thing about a podcast is it's not a captive audience. and, you know, at least in some ways -- >> it's the most captive audience. >> no. >> they make a decision to listen. >> well, i think that the fact that it's self-selecting means that you have to go find people one at a time. >> yeah, but once you have them, it's pretty captive. you know what i mean? like, i can get people to sit in

their car and not get out of their car, even if it's a podcast. >> well, that's pretty good. that is pretty good. >> well, that's what determines good radio, i don't want to get out of my car because you were still talking. >> the milk spoiled because i didn't want to leave. >> right. well, i get e-mails like that, i didn't want to get out of my car and i don't want to write back, like you can pause it. you know what i mean? [laughter]. >> you want to stay in your car, by all means, there's a reason. >> can't pause radio, that's true. yeah, right. did you think about this seriously being a radio program or a tv program? >> no. i don't. >> how did it become a podcast? >> well, i had done some radio. >> right, air america. >> yeah, i have done a bit of radio. i'm certainly no radio veteran, but i definitely was comfortable with the medium. >> right. >> and, you know, by the time i started the podcast i'd gone back a third time to air america for no reason at all other than i was broke, i was in the middle of a divorce. there was a new regime in place and the idiot that fired me twice was gone. and it was really kind of a weird situation. like, i was in this money-draining divorce and i was sort of in trouble. i was about to lose my house.

and one guy from air america, used to be at air america when i was there in the older days, he calls me up, he goes, there's a new guy with some new money. i think we should take some. [laughter]. >> it's like robbing a bank, right, yeah. >> he framed it differently. as a liberal he said, i think it's a good opportunity for us to fight the good fight. [laughter]. >> i was like, yeah, i'd like that fight. if they could give me 50 grand up front to stop this woman from killing me, that would be awesome. >> it would be awesome, yeah. >> so i worked that out. so the good liberals, they wrote me a check to stop hemorrhaging the money. and we did -- it was a streaming video show that i did with sam seder who is the host of "the majority report." he still does political talk. and i was so devastated because of my divorce going on. like, i was emotionally incapacitated. i didn't think i could be funny at all. so i was like, we got to get sam in here. because not only do i want to not talk or be funny, i don't want to talk about politics, certainly. i need someone in here to watch my back because i might start crying at any moment. >> yeah. >> so, and me and sam, we don't get along that great. it's okay.

it's comedic, but it's difficult. so we're doing this streaming video show in the break room of air america that no one is watching. and we're doing it daily. >> it's called the "breakroom," right? >> yeah, "breakroom live." >> right. >> we could not get any traction with that thing. no one cared about that show. >> yeah. >> and we were putting so much into it and it was just stupid. so -- but it was funny with me and sam. so after a year of that they're like, well, we can't afford to do this anymore and i'm like, okay. but we still had a month on our contract. so being good liberals they were like, well, you know, you're fired, kind of, but you still got a month, so you can keep your office. what world and what radio job has that ever happened? >> any job. >> yeah, any job. just hang out, you know. >> you got a month. >> yeah, and we're like, all right. so i was thinking, like, well i don't know what we're going to do, let's try this podcasting. i talk to my producer, brendan mcdonald. >> yeah. >> i said, do you think you can figure out how to post these? i know there's other people doing it. like if carola can do it and get some interviews, certainly we could do it. >> this is 2009. >> yeah, right. and he's like, all right, let's

do it. so we started doing them and posting them and when i moved back to my house in l.a., which i didn't lose, i set up shop in the garage. and there's no reason for radio. people always ask me, why don't you want to be on sirius? i'm, why? the thing is shifting now. we didn't anticipate that. the beginning and as time went on it sort of built. >> can you quantify the audience of the podcast now as we sit here five and a half years later? >> well, that's the difference between radio and podcast. >> you don't have to? >> no, i can do it precisely. >> okay. so precisely what is it? >> for years radio has been spitting these arbitron books, like these weird diaries that are based on what? you know, like, and they're basing their ad rates on, like, these weird mythical numbers. >> so what's the number then? >> well, i think that most episodes over their life, some more than others, get at least a half a million downloads. >> amazing. >> and each one right out of the gate gets 200,000, 300,000. >> and they have a long tail because people come back to them much later. >> the first six months, episodes are available for free for six months. >> right.

>> and then they go behind the app pay wall, which is only like $7, $8. >> right. pretty great. so the people you have on are, in some cases, people you know well, and in some cases people you respect but maybe don't know well. >> right. i think i know everybody well, though. so it's a good place to start. >> you do? >> pretty much. like people i know well, like comics i have known for 25 years even, it's not like we hang out with each other every day. >> but you know them. >> yeah, we're kindred spirits. >> first show you ever did, first podcast, was jeff ross, right? >> yeah, that was a phoner. >> phoner? >> yeah. at the beginning of the podcast, we didn't even know what the form was. there was other people hanging around the studio. my friend matt was there. we were doing phoners. sometimes i had two guests on a show. >> right. >> it just kind of -- it was odd. but, yeah, he was the first guest. >> right. >> and i don't remember what -- >> but i guess if you roll it forward, i guess more of the point i'm making is, if you roll it forward are they people with whom you have some kind of relationship? it's not like, you know, oh, hello for the first time, you know, sitting down with them. as is the case with most shows. >> sometimes it is. >> it is? >> sure. yeah, yeah. i mean, a lot of them sort of feel like first dates of sorts.

you know, like the conversation is getting to know each other conversation. i have different nerves for different people. like sometimes i don't know why i'm talking to somebody. you know, we get offered people. now, like, we were booking on our own for years and then sometimes we work with a booking agency so then names come up. like, that's how huey lewis got on. like, they were like, do you want to talk to huey lewis? i'm like, yeah, why not? you know, like everything was huey lewis for a year or so. [laughter]. >> like, what's that guy been doing? >> yeah, well, you know what, but that's a show. >> it turned out to be a great show. >> that's a show. >> yeah, of course it is. >> but if you look at the people, if you go back as i did before we sat down today and looked back at the list of people you've had on -- >> yeah. >> it's an impressive list of people. and when you think it's just a podcast. and i guess that's not fair to say, oh, it's just a podcast. but just a couple of years ago, who could have imagined -- >> yeah. >> -- that would be -- >> that those people would come to my garage. >> well, for all practical purposes, it's a real thing. >> yeah, well, no, that shift has happened. >> it has. >> at the beginning, you know,

people were like coming over and being like, really? i'm like, yeah, this is the future of show business. [laughter]. >> but you know what? it is. it's very -- it's diy. that's it. >> i don't know what it is. it just is what it is. you know, i guess it's that. it's going to be a mixture of things. >> yeah. >> i don't know why my show got so popular, but it was funny when people used to come over -- you know, like when bryan cranston came over, he was like, you know, i walked him into the back and he's like, really, in here? and i'm like, yeah. and i said, you know, jon hamm did it. and he's like, oh, yeah, hamm was in here? that somehow solidified it. >> paved the way. >> yeah. like i guess it's okay if hamm was here. i swear to god i really wanted to talk to walter white. that whole time when cranston was there, like i could not separate them. i have a hard time with actors and i was like, well, how do you make speed? [laughter]. >> that would be a good show. >> i don't think he could answer it. but it was good. that was a very nerve racking one because that entire show was shot in albuquerque and, like, i

didn't even ask -- >> and you're from albuquerque. >> i know but i didn't even ask him. >> yeah. >> that was one of those times where i'm like the one connection i could have had. >> i could have made the connection. >> that happens a lot. >> what are the economics of the show? so i know you have a bunch of advertisers. you mention the advertisers on the program. a lot of podcasts have advertisers. >> that's called advertising when you mention the advertiser. >> well, but it's hard to think -- >> it's hard to do it without mentioning it. >> it is hard. >> because when you think about it very hard -- >> and you have to read your mind. >> did you guys get that? stamps.com. >> but my point is it's hard to imagine that the revenue that comes in from these advertisers cover the bills. >> is it? >> it is, yeah. because, you know, traditional media have a different economic imperative than these -- >> well, let's think about it. >> come on. help me understand this. >> okay. so i know for a fact that i get about 300,000 people per episode. so do you think if you present those hard numbers to an advertiser they're going to be like, okay we'll give you $5? >> they're paying you enough? >> yeah. i mean, it took time to build that. >> if you're making this work --

>> look, you're talking to a guy that i was nervous about advertising. like when we had one ad i was like, people are going to leave. we're sellouts. >> let me say, you've leaned in. >> no, i definitely leaned in. because the truth of the matter is is that, unlike radio, again, you don't like the ads, then don't listen to them. >> well, i can always fast forward. >> exactly. and the thing is is that i won't advertise anything that is not legit on some level. i used to not advertise things that i couldn't get into myself, but now i do. and we worked with -- well, i mean -- like i don't know anything about baseball but, like, if they want to -- >> if they want to put the baseball fantasy draft thing. >> if the fantasy baseball gambling racket wants me to -- >> right. >> who am i to deny someone their vices? i won't advertise liquor because i don't drink anymore and i can't like -- there's no way as a recovering alcoholic to go, like, i used to have a real good time with this stuff. [laughter]. >> you feel free.

i'm not going to do it. but knock yourself out. >> i hope it doesn't ruin your life. enjoy. >> what i like about it, though, is i like your role as the pitchman. it's almost like -- >> i like doing -- it's old style. >> it's like hank kingsley doing "garden weasel" on "larry sanders," right? >> kind of. but it's also older than that. it's like radio, the old radio in general. >> right. >> most of radio, when you did terrestrial radio it was driven towards holding people over those ads. you know, that was, you know, forward momentum was all about that. keep them here, you know, so we can get them to hold on for six minutes of this stuff. >> yeah. >> we don't work with that model. you know, we'll drop the ads when we want to drop them. it's all us talking. we're not worried about that momentum people are in. like, i remember one time i was doing an interview with some radio guys. or, no, it wasn't an interview, someone told me. i don't need to mention them, but bob and tom up in indiana -- [laughter]. >> no, but someone was talking to tom, i think and tom was like, these podcasters, they don't know what they're doing. they don't even reset the guests. why would we have to? people were listening because of them.

like, the reset model where you sort of like, we'll be right back with marc maron after this. why would i do that? people download it. they're not just tuning in. >> exactly. >> they don't need to be reminded who they're listening to like their morons. by the way, if somehow or another you forgot what we're doing here -- >> well, you're blowing up the model, that's for sure. >> my point is, over time there was no business model that any of us had. none of us knew how to make money and i'm certainly grateful and humble, you know, and i'm not being -- you know, i don't want to appear like i'm being pompous or anything, is that the business model evolved. me and my partner knew nothing about business. i am not a businessman, he is not either. you know, he was sort of a company guy-minded person and i'm an entertainer, whatever i do. >> right. >> you know, i keep people listening to something. so, like, it wasn't business that we got into it for. so we didn't know how to make money. >> yeah. >> our first sponsor from the old days was, you know, just coffee, it was a co-op in madison. and i still carry them and they

don't hardly pay anything, it's just the loyalty thing. >> nostalgia, right. >> yeah. and i just visited their new plants. and by me plugging them, i helped their business. >> it helps. >> it was sort of fascinating. so the model just kind of evolved. >> yep. >> and it's sort of a thrill in the sense that at some point both brendan mcdonald my producer and myself realized, we've got something we've made ourselves from the ground up. >> most definitely. >> and i never understood what entrepreneurial sort of pride was. i'm like, we're businessmen and we've got a small business that we run. and there is something about that. but it's not about the weird pride or some sort of american work ethic or entrepreneurial spirit. it's like, nobody can tell us what to do. >> that's the best part, right? you built from an empty -- >> that's the only part. >> and you control it. >> beautiful. between you and me -- >> yeah. just forget about them, just tell me. >> and i hope it happens. the vice president's office called us and thought that maybe biden -- >> might come on? >> come to the garage. and i'm like, really? >> obama does galifianakis, you get biden.

>> right, we did that thing between two friends. but, like, we have these weird moments with this thing where i'm like, like i don't want to talk about politics and i don't want to, you know, i don't want to be just a policy outlet. that's why i got out. i don't talk about politics at all, really unless it affects me directly or i feel like i have to, but i won't do that thing. i will not be a conduit. so like i said, i'm not going to talk policy and do i need to go to him? and brendan went back to the office and he comes back and he's like, no, he wants to come to the garage. i'm like, well that will be amazing. >> but that's kind of biden-y isn't it, to come to the garage? >> but biden-y or not, you know there's going to be 90 secret -- they're going to be scanning the hillside. >> oh, right. well, there's that problem, right, yeah. >> you know, like my neighbors -- >> snipers. >> -- what's happening? and i'm like, yeah, vice president's going to hang out for a little while. >> in the garage. >> but i don't know if it's going to happen. i don't know what determines that. >> is this more fun for you than just doing plain old standup comedy? >> no, i love doing comedy.

it's a whole different thing. you know, like the job of doing the podcast, like i need to talk to people. like it becomes sort of this weird thing. like i was, like, aggravated the other day and i'd been touring a lot and i was just like kind of losing my mind. and then, like, i had an interview, zach woods, who is a comedic actor. he's from "the office" and from "silicon valley." >> so like on the "mike judge" show, right. >> right. >> very good. >> he's a great improviser too. i seen him -- just by coincidence i brought my nieces to ucb to see him improvise with a crew. i didn't know he was in it. well, anyways, i didn't know what i was going to talk to him about, but i was a fan. and just the act of talking to somebody else is relaxing. you get out of your own head and i'm kind of, you know, addicted to it. and the point is that it's a whole different thing, you know. standup is something i've done my whole life. it was what i did at the beginning. >> you started in '87 was the first time you did standup? >> if your research tells you that, then i'll go with that. >> i'm just picking a number. i'm picking a year out of the air. roughly, right? >> it seems spontaneous, yeah. [laughter]. >> preparation, man.

>> that's good, buddy. yeah, i think it was about '87 is right. you know, i did it a couple of times before that. but i always wanted to just be a comic. and now finally people were coming to see me. a lot of people were like, well, i like his podcast, i don't know if he can do a standup. and i'm like, it's what i do. you know, that's always a surprise. like, i didn't know how you'd be as a standup. it's like, i've been living on stage for half my life. >> well, but you probably have people who came to the podcast who really didn't know that that's what you did. >> honestly most people don't know me. >> yeah. >> like, i think that if you were to sort of look at the numbers of people who know me versus who doesn't know me, more people don't know me. which is exciting, in a way -- >> it's an opportunity. >> well, yeah, kind of like when my show "maron" went on to netflix, you know, i'd get these tweets and stuff like i had no idea who you were. and there's part of you that's like how could you not? you know, what do i got to do? you know, or if i'm going to a town, like, i'll tweet a million times. i'll talk about it on the podcast for weeks. and then some idiot will be like i didn't know you were in town. what did you want me to do, come over? >> how could i have possibly worked this harder?

>> yeah, i don't know how to do it but i do know it's nice being discoverable. >> right. >> because, like, if you're coming to netflix and there's two seasons of that specific show, which is me, and you're like, oh, this is great. it must be exciting. like, i never knew that guy. so that's kind of -- everything's pretty good. >> has the tv -- we said that the third season of the show is now on ifc. has the tv experience been good for you? it's a fictionalized version. it's almost like a reality show based on the character. >> no. >> the character is kind of you-ish. >> it's not a reality show. it's like oh my god, my hair in texas is a bit much. the humidity is really, like -- >> even though it's a fictionalized version of you, it is kind of like you. i mean, it's you, basically, right? the character's you. >> well, it evolves as me. you know, some of the stories are based on me, but it is 22 minutes of scripted material. and as the seasons went on, like i don't think i was -- i knew that i was going to take a hit. you know, the first season i had never done anything like that before and i knew that my acting was going to be stiff. and, like, i just knew because i had seen other comics go through

it. you know, like every comic i know who has had a tv show, that first season you're like, i hope he figures this out. >> and not all of them do. >> no, i know. but eventually they lock into something -- >> right. >> -- that is them. they may not be great actors, but i did better second season. i think this season is even better. >> yeah. >> but it is -- but through that creative process of writing and you start to realize what part of me lives up there. that is a character. >> right. >> it is marc on television. it is not my regular life because it's only 22 minutes. you know, i have another 23.5 hours during the day and they're not all pleasant and some of them are sadder than others. and a lot of times i'm not doing anything, which is not great television. >> bad television. [laughter]. >> so to figure out what that character is and what parts of me are coming out and how it works, like i'm a little crankier, like i think i'm a pretty sensitive, compassionate person. and i think the character's a little harder than i am, really. but it gets pretty dicey this season.

yeah, this season the undercurrent is really just sort of, like, what if it had gone wrong? like what if i'd gotten all the opportunities i've gotten up to this point -- >> yep. >> -- and i let the worst of me take over. so that kind of happens. >> it's kind of exciting. >> it is kind of exciting. i just hope to god it's not prophecy. [laughter]. >> okay. well, that's a good place to end. we're out of time. good luck with the show. but, really, thanks for the podcast. it's just so wonderful. >> thank you for having me. >> marc maron. thank you very much. [applause]. >> we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our web at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. >> the reason i ended up doing conan so much was i was in new york and sometimes someone would cancel, like at the last minute. so paula, the booker over there, she'd be like, do you have anything? and i'm like, well, i've got a few things that aren't quite -- yeah, i could probably make them work. and she's like, all right, good, help us. so i would go on conan and do

bits that later became better jokes. like, i would try them out on conan. >> pretty good. >> funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global healthcare consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. thank you.

steves: for a more lively way to enjoy paris and cap an exciting day, steve and i have hired a car and a driver for a blitz of the city's best nighttime views. and this isn't just any car and driver. this company employs a fleet of historic deux chevaux cars, and they're driven by local students. man: the different districts are like a snail, going around the island, the city. steves: the french raise flood lighting to an art form. and with a city as beautiful as paris, it's no wonder.

les invalides, with its golden dome marking napoleon's tomb, is magnifique. the naughty blades of the moulin rouge keep turning, and its red lights tempt lost souls in pigalle. just to be out and about at this hour, the energy of the city is palpable. notre dame is particularly stately after dark. sightseeing boats enliven the river and its sparkling bridges. the pyramid at the louvre glows from within. and the eiffel tower provides a fitting finale for this victory lap through the city of light.