funding for "overhead" with evan smith is provided in part by m.f.i. foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm evan smith. she's a rock 'n' roll icon who spent 30 years as a bassist, guitarist, and vocalist in the hall of fame-worthy alternative band, sonic youth. her memoir, "girl in a band," has just been published. she's kim gordon, this is "overheard." [applause]. >> actually, there are not two sides to every issue. >> so i guess we can't fire him now. >> i guess we can't fire him now. the night that i win the emmy. >> being on the supreme court

was an improbable dream. >> it's hard work and it's controversial. >> without information, there is no freedom. and it's journalists who provide that information. >> window rolls down and this guy says, hey, he goes to 11:00. [laughter]. >> kim gordon, welcome. >> thank you. >> congratulations on this book. i'm sure it's going to be a big hit. it must have been fun to write. >> parts of it were fun. >> yeah. >> parts were boring. >> boring? parts of it were boring to write? >> yeah. >> to go back through all those years? >> well, there's just this certain nuts and bolts of writing -- >> right. >> where you just have to explain things or try and get a lot of information in that -- it's not particularly -- you know, it's challenging. >> right. did you write it for yourself or did you write it for us? >> both. >> both? yeah.

>> yeah, i mean i guess i had in mind the kind of book i'd want to read. >> right. so in that respect, you wrote it for you. but i also wonder if it felt to you like you had things you needed to get off your chest or things you needed to get out. i don't know you, but i feel like having watched you perform all these years and understanding a little bit from a distance who you are, i feel like i know you enough to think that you're not the kind of person who is eager to tell all or eager to open up that chest and get -- you know, take a bunch of stuff out and show it to us. >> yeah. >> so that was an interesting question i had for you. what made you do this? >> i had a lot of time on my hands. [laughter]. >> oh, is that right? yeah. >> no, i know people were starting to inquire, different publishers or editors -- >> yeah. >> and i -- you know, writing for me is the way i figure out what i'm thinking or feeling about something. >> and you have done writing in the past, essays and -- >> yeah, more -- yeah. essays and short pieces.

some things about l.a. >> right. >> so, i don't know. it just seemed like it was a good time, if i was going to write a memoir that maybe i should do it now. >> right. if you're going to unburden yourself, this is the time. >> yeah, i mean, you know, when something traumatic happens in your life, then it does set you up thinking about your whole life, like how did i get here and who am i. >> so if the marriage hadn't ended and if the band hadn't ended, we might not have had the book? >> no. >> yeah. >> probably not. >> so this is the -- unfortunately we had to have that to make this happen, but i'm actually glad that we ended up with this in any case. your affect in this book is flat. the stories are told, not without emotion, but they're told kind of matter of factually, as if you're just sort of going back through and cataloging and telling us the chronology of things. did the tone of the book come to you naturally? did you work or think carefully about this? because i think it's unlike a lot of memoirs in that it's just

presented as is. it's not presented with any fanfare or any having to puff up the language or the story telling to make it interesting. it's just here the story, that's it. >> right. well, i -- i'm kind of a minimalist, i guess. >> yeah. >> and, like, you know, have a lot of subtext in things. but i didn't want to romanticize it. i mean, you know, some things are -- >> well, it's definitely not romanticized, that's for sure. >> and, i don't know, i like it to be succinct. i'm not, like, a super wordsmith or anything. so i kind of felt like i went more for punch and succinctness and kind of a drama in the space around the words. >> right. well, the assumption that a lot of people that write memoirs make is that you want to hear from them and again and again and more and more. and the books can be overwhelming. but the thing about this is it's kind of spare, and in that respect, it's a much easier book to digest.

>> yeah, well i found in most memoirs i've read, even the ones i liked, i pretty much lose it, you know, two-thirds of the way through or something. >> right. >> like the keith richards book or -- >> right. >> you know, many. >> not to pick on anybody, particularly. >> no, yeah. >> but pick on him, that's fine. yeah. >> i love keith. but, no, it was -- so i was really aware of i didn't want it to be boring. >> right. now, "girl in a band," we'll come to later the origin of that phrase. it's part of a lyric of a song from an album of sonic youth's. but it's girl in a band, it's not girl in a marriage, it's not girl in a gallery, it's girl in a band. the focus, at least we are to take from the title deliberately chosen, is that it's on your career in music. the other stuff is essentially the frame around it, is that right? >> well, i mean, it's really -- the title was sort of meant ironically. in a way, one, it's the question that every female musician hates

being asked and gets tired of hearing. and also just that i have done a lot of other things and i don't actually think of myself as a musician. >> you no longer do? >> well, i never really did. [laughter]. >> that's interesting. so you spent all those years, the most public-facing part of your career was in this band. and during that time, it didn't seem to you or feel to you that we thought of you that way or should think of you that way? >> well, it's not how i personally identify with music. i mean, i don't think, like, people in punk rock bands thought of themselves as musicians. i don't know, maybe they did in a i'm a musician -- >> in a literal sense. >> -- come home with me way. [laughter]. >> oh, oh. that went someplace i didn't expect it to go. okay. all right. [laughter]. >> no, but i mean, i think punk rock, when punk rock happened, a lot of people got involved with playing music. >> yeah.

>> i mean, i think viv albertine talks about this in her book, although i haven't read it. but, you know, about suddenly you are, like, kind of thrown into this situation. you know, you were drawn in -- >> right. >> -- to this, like, exciting time and what was happening. and a lot of people became involved with bands that -- and it took them somewhere and -- >> yeah. >> they didn't start out as musicians. >> didn't think of that. and the reality is, you started out more in art. >> yes, exactly. >> right? you went to art school and you're probably better defined these days, maybe then, maybe forever, as an artist more than as a musician, right? >> yeah. i mean, i realize people know me has a musician in sonic youth and don't know much about the other part of my practice, our practice. but, i don't know, i just always, i guess, felt a bit of an outsider in the music scene. >> yeah. >> as kind of a voyeur or -- >> well, it was successful if that was what worked for you, right? that's good. the thing about this book that i really appreciate, again, to the point that it's about a lot of

different things. the sense of place in this book in at least two distinct ways really worked so well for me as a reader. the first was l.a., the l.a. of your upbringing. the family stuff was fascinating. great grandmother who sold patterns up and down the coast, right? your grandmother, your parents, your dad at ucla. you at the ucla lab school. the stuff with your brother, which is so moving and interesting and ultimately important to understanding your story. but l.a. as a character in this book is really great. can you talk a little bit about the importance of l.a. to you? >> well, first of all, i tried to think of ways not to write about myself, or -- yeah, i wanted it to be a portrait of l.a. at a certain time, the '60s and '70s. and, i don't know. i just think that's something that you can't get off the internet or you can't get a sense of the context or -- you know, i think that's why memoirs and books are so important.

but it's such a strong feeling about l.a. during that time that i just carry it around still. >> right. and it was consequential in terms of how it and how what you saw there and did there influenced your art and your music later, right? it was -- it wasn't just it happened to be l.a., it could have been minneapolis. it was actually important that it was l.a. and you took a lot from that. >> yeah, sure. besides the growing up stuff, i was influenced by -- a lot by this artist/architect, john knight, who was a -- who is a conceptual artist. and it was interesting. a lot of, you know, just looking at the city through -- in that way and looking for a subject matter in suburbia. >> yeah. >> and taking that to new york was confusing. but it was interesting. >> but it was interesting, right. and then new york, of course, is the other place in this book that is such a resonate character. and what i loved about your new york stories were -- you

actually inspired this thought, it's the chock full of nuts new york, not the starbucks new york. >> right. >> right? the era of new york that you write about is a pre-giuliani, pre-cleaned up new york, pre everything that we now, disneyland kind of new york. it was the old rough and tumble and more interesting new york, right? >> yeah. definitely. it's -- yeah, 42nd street times square was -- still had this, sort of like that show, b movie. >> hookers and the drugs, right? that was when new york was new york, right? >> yeah, before disneyland moved in. >> right. but also the music scene in new york and the club scene in new york, which was important to you all getting going as a band. i was really interested in the distinction you made. i swear i had not thought of it this way or heard this. no wave as a genere of music? >> yeah.

i mean, it's hard to describe no wave, like bands like teenage jesus and the jerks and dna and mars and suicide and -- but it was a very dissonant, kind of deconstructed rock sound. >> yeah. >> it wasn't -- there was -- a lot of it was really dense. and it was very -- almost like abstract expressionism in music. >> yeah. >> with vocals. >> there's that art influence again, right? >> yeah. a lot of bands, actually, were, i think, artists who moved to new york. then there were people like glenn branca and rhys chatham, who were in bands and then started doing these, sort of, little mini orchestra bands -- >> yeah. >> based on minimalist composer notion of overtones. like glenn had, you know, five guitars all tuned to a certain tuning, which has influenced us, eventually. >> yeah. >> yeah.

>> and so the band -- you know, there's no way to take 30 years of a band and distill it into a couple of minutes. and everyone who sees this, who knows you or knows the band will say oh i, you know, daydream. different people have different things that they accessed or loved. i want to ask you about how the world changed in those 30 years. you straddled two different eras. you know, the old way of doing business in a literal sense, the selling and distribution of music, the relationship with labels, all that kind of stuff, and all touring and that whole environment on the one hand. an then the more recent period of sonic youth, before the band broke up, digital distribution, people accessing music online for free. the whole economics of it had been upturned. can you talk a little bit about your view of how the world that you were in as a band changed in that time? >> well, i don't know. i mean, like our attitude in the beginning was never even thought about being on a major label, for one thing. it was baby step, you know, getting a gig at cbgb's, getting

a better slot at cbgb's. >> but there was no long-range plan? >> no long-range plan. and it was -- you know, it just kind of growing our audience and, you know, we were always looking for better distribution. and we did -- you know, we left homestead for sst and then blast first was always in the picture. and we did make most of -- i don't know if we made most of our income from touring or not, but because we actually had an english company and an american company. so we did get money from both sides. >> yeah. >> but i think we probably made a fair amount of money from touring, which is still the way most people make money. >> right. that's the tension. are you a touring band primarily that also records? or are you a band that makes albums and then tours to support the albums, right? you can be one or the other potentially. >> yeah, it's -- i don't know. like, i really don't know how

bands actually survive right now. small bands, you know, i have no idea. >> especially in a time when so much music is being consumed through spotify and other services that allow you to stream it. even if you don't get to keep it, it's essentially the same. probably less money -- it would feel like less money, feel like, less money is changing hands now. >> yeah. yeah, i mean, it's very ambiguous. like, i never really got the sense that we were making any money from record sales. >> anyway. >> yeah. >> so maybe nothing to lose, right? >> yeah, although we always had this back catalog that we could, you know, keep putting back into print, so -- >> yeah. we were talking about aimee mann earlier before we came out. aimee mann is one of the people today, she's not alone in this, who are actually, you know, resisting this turning everything over to the electronic end of things and allowing music to be, essentially, taken without being compensated for it. all the sonic youth records, from my cursory examination, are all available on spotify.

you know, you can get access to this stuff. you have no beef with that? >> i don't really pay attention to it. i mean, i -- i don't know. i don't know, really. i trust our manager's got us the best deal he could. >> honestly not having an opinion about it is a perfectly good answer. >> i really don't. you know, i just don't pay attention to it. i just figure we're not making any money. [laughter]. >> right. >> i mean, i just -- my bar is set pretty low. >> right. you're pretty zen about the whole thing. >> yeah, but i, you know, now i have this duo called body/head with bill nace. >> bill nace, yeah. >> and there are only two of us, so even if we have a sound person -- like, you can make, you know, i can actually go out and make as much money or come back with as much money as i did at the end of, like, a month-long sonic youth tour. >> doing what you're doing

today. >> yeah, because there aren't all the expenses. you know, it's just like all the overhead -- >> well, no overhead, right? >> you make a lot of money but then you just have all these expenses. >> are you still enjoying doing it, out performing? >> yeah, yeah. especially if i don't have to plug in my own effect boxes and get down on my knees. [laughter]. >> let me come back to the book and to the title. again, we said "girl in a band" is -- the basis for it is a lyric. having sacred trickster is the song, is that right? and the question is asked, what's it like to be a girl in a band? i'm going to walk up to the edge here, dangerously, of mansplaining. i think of it more as man-sploring, actually, asking the question. you know, this question -- [laughter]. >> you're a genius. >> get ready, go ahead, go ahead. go ahead, sit back. what i want to know is exactly not an answer to the question, but i want to understand if your experience, which you write about quite, i think, quite movingly and compellingly in this book, is it universal? so if i had georgia hubley from

yo la tenga up here, would chef the same experience, in this respect, as you have written about? or if i had carrie brownstein here who is in a band of all women. is the experience that you're talking about, which is a legitimate topic. you raised it and i think it's a good topic and it ought to be discussed candidly and frankly. is it a universal experience? >> i think it is. i mean, when you're talking about people who play rock bands or -- i mean, i don't think anyone says what's it like to be a female pop singer. you know what i mean? >> right. and no one says what it's like to be a man in a band or a boy in a band. >> well, yeah. that's true. >> i don't think i've ever heard anybody ask that question. >> yeah, yeah. i've asked that, but -- >> you have? [laughter]. >> well, what's your particular insight into that? >> you know, that's kind of how i got involved with playing music. i was writing articles about that male bonding. >> yeah, right. >> i don't have any insight. although, you know, it's all still more parallel play. you know, it's communicating,

playing side by side or, you know. so it's no different than going out bowling together. >> right. except the experience one intuits from this that the experience of being a woman in a band like sonic youth and being a man in a band like sonic youth is not equivalent, right? >> yeah, sure. >> right. >> i think women are more communicators. like, i've been in bands with girls, like free kitten and -- >> yep. >> and it's not just that there are different personalities, it's more that i think women like to talk. i mean, ask lee or kenny about this. you know, they talk about everything and they talk it all out, which i think men or boys in bands don't -- >> less inclined to do? >> yeah. >> right? well let me continue to walk up to the edge of going into an abyss and ask one more question on this subject. >> yeah.

>> so in 1994, you had a child. no one would ask thurston what's it like to be a dad and be in a band. >> right. >> but everybody feels compelled to ask a woman who has a child and tours, what's it like to be a rock 'n' roll mom. >> yeah. >> is this even a topic worth exploring? should people be thinking about you and people like you in this situation in terms like this? >> well, i think so, but i do think a lot of men get -- have resentment. no one thinks about how they feel. >> do you think men are victims in this case? [laughter]. >> a little bit, you know. no, i mean, it's hard to go away and leave your family. >> right. but your daughter, by all accounts, seems to be remarkable and has grown up in a way that would suggest the kind of parenting that she got was totally appropriate to the job. and i'm thinking, from your perspective, i would think if i were on the road as much as the band, or a band, is on the road in that time, it would be really hard.

>> yeah, no. >> i'm empathetic parent to parent, right? >> yeah, no, it was hard because even if you bring someone along to help take care, you still have to -- it's hard to eke out time for yourself -- >> yep. >> like on the day off, everyone has a day off but you because then you're with -- >> right. >> -- your child, who you want to be with, but you're really tired. >> of course. yeah. >> and, yeah, there's just a lot to worry and think about that you carry along with you than on tour -- >> she's at the art institute in chicago now? >> uh-huh. >> yeah? she's a chip off the old block. art school, art school, right? >> yeah, she's -- i think she's going to have a much more straightforward career path. >> what does she want to do? >> be a painter. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> pretty good. >> yeah. '94 was significant in this book because you talk about it in two different ways. coco was born and also kurt cobain died.

he is also a really interesting character in this book. and the story of kurt cobain and nirvana is told here, in a very personal way by you, different from what i've read before. what did you see in him and them? what gave you a sense that they were going to be something? >> well, they had these great songs, for one thing, that were almost like, i even think of them as, like, sculptural in their sort of minimal aspect of, like, the rhythm section. and, but, i don't know. just that kurt, he wasn't performing in the sense of entertainment, you know, or his idea of entertainment. you know, he was just taking it as far as he could. >> yeah. >> live performance. and if he felt frustrated or angry, he didn't really have a filter for that. >> yeah. >> frankly, i don't know what he was thinking. but, you know, when you see

somebody hurl themselves on a drum kit, like that's not just -- >> that's a tell. >> that's not pete townshend smashing a guitar. >> right. >> you know what i mean? it's -- >> well, if he were here and i asked him a version of the question i asked you, are you doing it for us or are you doing it for you? he's doing it for him. >> but i also think, you know, like maybe he had this idea of rock as being uncompromising, in a way, and performing live, like it's not just putting on a show and, you know, playing this song. it's not just about playing the songs. >> yeah. can understand that? that feels familiar to you? >> yeah, that feels familiar to me. >> so to kind of come back full circle, last year nirvana was inducted into the rock 'n' roll hall of fame. and krist novoselic and dave grohl played, but you also were part of the band. it was you and st. vincent, joan jett, and lana del rey. see what i did there? i know you don't like her. [laughter]. >> it was -- >> you're taking me out of context.

>> i am, i am, i am, sorry. and lorde. and that must have been -- for you that must have been kind of a fun and amazing thing to do. >> yeah, it was. i mean, it was kind of thrilling and scary. yeah, i don't feel like i ever have to go to one of those ever again. [laughter]. >> on that subject, let's -- >> five hours. >> let's speak about that for a second. what on earth is wrong with the world that sonic youth is not in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame? this feels like the snub of snubs. >> well, i don't know. i just don't think we were -- sold enough records. i mean, i don't think we're that popular. >> really? so nsync will be in the hall of fame here at some point? is this all about that? really? >> i think so. >> well down with that. i, for one, think it's great. you don't care, particularly? >> i mean, i -- you know, it's flattering to be nominated. >> right. [laughter].

>> right. >> but, you know, there's a lot of old guys there at this -- like really old. and -- >> maybe we should wait a while. >> you know, maybe in 20 years we'll be inducted or something. >> yeah. so we have about a minute left. i want to clear up something. so the band broke up in 2011. >> uh-huh. >> and there was a discussion by your former husband that this was a hiatus. he said a couple of times, or it was said this was a hiatus. i don't get the sense that you're on hiatus. >> no. i don't know when he said that but -- >> it's over. >> yeah, i mean, we did something for 30 years. it's good to move on and do something else. >> yeah. you don't feel any -- there's not going to be a reunion show here at some point and we're all going to be surprised. it's done. >> yeah. >> so what we have of sonic youth's work we should just enjoy and that's it. and you're enjoying this new

with bill nace, the stuff that you're doing and the art stuff that you're doing. this is satisfying you? >> oh, yeah. >> anything else you're doing coming up you want to tell us about? or is it just going to be -- this stuff is certainly plenty? >> yeah, i don't know. doing some movie scoring or a movie. >> well, that's pretty fun. done that before? >> yeah. somewhat. i mean, never on my own but the band did some. >> great. well, congratulations on this. this is -- i can't imagine that this book is not going to be a bestseller. and, in any case, it's wonderful to get a little bit more insight into what we've watched from a distance all these years. >> thanks. >> so kim gordon, thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. [applause]. >> we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. >> the no wave bands were inspiring, like dna and mars and alan vega in suicide, because he was so confrontational and kind

of scary with the audience. >> yep. >> and then, you know, earlier things like the yardbirds. >> funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by m.f.i. foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also by hillco partners, texas government affairs consultancy and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. thank you.