- [voiceover] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. also by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation, - i'm evan smith, her 2013 filibuster of an abortion bill in texas made her an international celebrity, and propelled her to run for governor of her home state. today's she's travelling the country as an advocate for gender equality, and she's encouraging young women everywhere to follow in her footsteps. she's wendy davis. this is overheard. let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen on other nations in africa. - i'd have to say he made his own bed. - [evan] but you caused him to sleep in it. you saw a problem, and over time took it on-- let's start with the sizzle before we get to the stake.

are you gonna run for president? - [voiceover] i think i just got an f from you asking. (applause) - wendy davis, welcome. - thank you, evan. - [evan] nice to see you. so we're in 2016, and we're having to have a conversation about women getting treated the same as men. am i missing something? why are we having this conversation today? - it's really remarkable we are less than five years away from the 100 year anniversary of the passage of women gaining the right to vote in this country, and yet, here we are. we still aren't paid equally. - 79% is the last aauw study. i know different statistics. - sure. close to that. for women of color it's actually much worse than that, in the 60% range, and we find ourselves still struggling as the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't recognize the value of women, both in the workplace and at home,

and our male partners as well the challenges that we have when we have family and work, and how to find ourselves in a supportive environment that allows us to do both. what's most remarkable to me is how short-sighted this perspective is because it isn't trite at all to say, "when women do better, we all do better." - well, it's half the population, right? - absolutely, and when you look at the advent of the invention of the pill, and what happened to women's ability to enter and stay in the workforce as a consequence of that, and the consequential increase in our economic production because of that. now we see this winding of those things. we see women's reproductive rights under assault, and with it, our reproductive autonomy, which is absolutely connected to our economic opportunity. we see women being underpaid

both being the majority of people who occupy the minimum wage realm of america, and then we also see them being underpaid compared to our male counterparts. all of this support for women, which puts money in our pockets, and let's face it, ladies, we spend our money when we have it, right, which we would be putting into the economy. it's not there. it hurts all of us. - i mention this is an economic development argument because there are a whole bunch of buttons that can be pushed in a conversation like this, but take everything else to the side as an economic development argument. it hardly seems like somebody could disagree with you? - no question about it. for me it's one of those issues that ought not to have political labels and-- - or a part of our partisan-- - right, a partisan label. - yeah. - better said, a partisan label attached to it because it really is for the health and well-being,

not only of families and of individual women who are supported by it, but by companies throughout this country would have stronger buying power in the economy. - who is opposed to gender equality in a broad sense or even in a narrow sense of some of the issues you cited because it seems to me that arguing against women being treated equally, who wants to be on that side? i know that there are things that you can argue within individual issue sets, but who wants to be an "i am apposed to women being treated equally." you'd get run to the state line with pitchforks and torches, you do that. - interestingly, here in texas, when we tried to pass our equal pay law, we saw macy's, for example, and certainly some emails were ferreted out that demonstrated this, putting pressure on the governor not to sign that law. - because it would cost them more. is it as simple as that? - i think it's a short-sighted sense that some companies have that somehow this makes them more vulnerable, and it threatens them. but the fact of the matter is, again, macy's, look at them.

they are a major retailer. they ought to be the ones supporting making sure that women have economic success so that women are coming in and spending more money in their store. - let's acknowledge that many businesses, macy's maybe an example of this, i don't know for sure that it is, but i will assume that it is, and there are many other major american and international businesses in the same position, are often run by men. is it gonna take more women running companies for this to change in the same way that the political system, although half the population, or a little more of them is women, only 20% of the senate and a little bit less than 20% of the us house are women, until we rectify that disparity, we're not gonna rectify some of these other issues? - there's no question. it's the whole idea of both representative democracy, reflective democracy, but it also ought to be incorporated in every boardroom, and at every level of executives in this country.

if we truly want to have the perspectives of all of us at the table, we have to be at the table. we can't expect the people who haven't had our experiences, who haven't walked in our shoes, are going to bring those perspectives forward. - although you'll acknowledge there are men who are good on this issue, and there are some women who are not so good on this-- - there are men who are incredible feminists in this country. that god for them, but there aren't enough men. even the most well-intended, i think, who necessarily understand, would argue from the same place for these ideals and policies as women would, and fortune 500 companies in america today, i think the number is around 5% of those, are headed by women. there's something wrong with that. women are more than 50% of college graduates in this country today, and yet, we are the majority

of people who are earning the minimum wage, so there's something broken here, and it's not going to be fixed unless and until we start seeing women rise, not only as the executives of these companies, but also sitting on the boards of these companies. - not just operations, but governments? - absolutely - [evan] right. do you think that the conversation about gender equality is a different conversation than about equality along racial lines. i mean obviously we have been, for the last number of years, and arguably for the last 50 years, been having conversations about the african-american experiences in this country, and the degrees to which progress has and hasn't been made. we sit in the state of texas and in the country, the united states, in which the hispanic population is growing precipitously, and so there's a conversation alongside the african-american conversation about the latino equality experience, or latinos being treated equally. is the gender equality conversation a version of that conversation, or is it distinct, do you think? - the same and distinct.

equality is equality, and when you consider the values that underlie that principle, it cuts across all groups of race, culture, sexual orientation or identity, gender, the broad theme underpins all of that. - i guess what i'm thinking is if you knew that corporate america was paying hispanic people less as a matter of policy-- - right, this is the point i was just going to make. the point is this that in america, it feels as though it's so commonplace, that we don't find ourselves getting as upset about it. we don't find ourselves seeing the injustice in it in the same way we might if there were a company that were absolutely as some sort of inherent policy paying people who are african-american less than anglo.

- or jews. - [wendy] absolutely. but let's face it, that happens, too. it does happen. certainly when you look at women of color being the most underpaid, these would be their white male counterparts, clearly race and gender together can have a double whammy for a person who's in that role. i often think about what we see happening in the political conversation in america today, and where we find our sense of injustice in our fight, and where we don't. i'll use an example what happened in north carolina recently. i think it was fabulous. i was so excited to see that it wasn't just people who fit within the group who were were being impacted by this law who were crying out against the transgender, anti-transgender law that was passed there.

it was people of all colors and stripes, all orientations, who were objecting to it, but it was also private companies, big companies, like american airlines, saying, "you know what, we were coming to you state, "but we're not gonna do that anymore." that's what it's going to take to really turn the dynamic around on issues like that. but i ask myself as i watch that going on, what about in states like texas or ohio, or elsewhere where women's reproductive rights are absolutely under assault, where are our private companies in saying, "okay, texas, we're not coming there anymore." you know, exerting some sort of-- - what do you think the difference is? obviously in a state like texas or ohio, or any state, you have a clear-eye perspective on how you feel about this issue, but there are other people who disagree.

you may not respect their disagreement, but it is an issue on which people disagree. it's controversial, obviously, as your experience here in 2013 and going forward proved, so is that why? is it that some big companies are more willing to cross some thresholds, but not others? what is it exactly? - i wish i could answer that. i don't know. but i do think there's a sense of clear bigotry behind some of these issues, and that clear bigotry evokes a response, a very valid response from companies, for example, like we saw in north carolina. maybe it feels a little less outwardly motivated by bigotry when we see equal pay laws being vetoed, thank you governor perry, or we see things being passed like we saw happen in the state of texas.

maybe that feels a little less bigoted in some way because it looks like it's motivated by other factors, but underlying all of it, is this deep disrespect and discrimination for women as a whole. and i think there's so much wrapped up in it, truly, much more than meets the eye, and it's easy to kind of explain it away as well. these reproductive issues that we're dealing with here are all about us having opposition to the idea of abortion, or objecting equal pay is all about us having some idea about the vulnerability and the cost that companies might incur as a consequence of that, so it looks less directly motivated at women. - but at the end of the day-- i'm tempted to ask if these are such complicated and important issues to get a handle on, why there hasn't

been some big outcry, but of course, you would say, first of all there has been, and second of all, there needs to be more. and the organization that you've now founded, deeds not words, is at least in part, an effort to try to mobilize women across the country, but particularly young women, to try to take on some of these issues themselves, and governments and elected officials and businesses won't take on these issues, then ground up, right? - exactly. - [evan] right. i was listening in this phrasing, deeds not words. i thought, well this is an interesting name of an organization for this purpose, but in fact this goes back more than 100 years to the british suffrage movement, right? this is the women's social and political union, a group that came into existence because a polite approach to this whole set of issues was not working, and so a group came together, and it is often described as a militant group? - right. - do you view what you're doing as-- (laughter) are you planning anything you wanna tell us about?

(laughter) this group that came together, whose slogan was deeds not words, that you borrowed for the name of your organization, was advocating for violent action in the event that society won't change. is that what you're planning? - i'm not planning on advocating violence, not at all. but i do think, given where we are in the population in this country, we have an opportunity to drive this conversation, both in the political and the private worlds, if we decide that we're going to weigh in, and be a part of making sure we drive the conversation to that place, so using the power that we have in supporting or opposing candidates who are running for office, who are either friendly or not friendly on these issues, but also being smart consumers. putting together lists of companies that are doing very proactive things in the gender equality world,

facebook, for example, versus companies that are very backward in the gender equality world, and when we have the opportunity to go spend our dollars as women to major consumers in this country, why not put our dollars where we know we're going to find like-minded companies who are supporting women and keep them in our pocket when it comes to these other companies. - so this is among the list of things that your organization is trying to do is to raise the number of young women who are going to vote. - yes. - this is a particularly interesting year for that, do you think? - i think it is. - really? i've heard some say, "oh, there's not a dimes bit of difference between the likely democratic nominee and the all-but certain republican nominee." - wow. - well, but it is some of your fellow democrats who've said that, haven't they? they've said, "well, you know, sanders and clinton, "they're just two sides of that same corporatist coin."

- sanders and clinton? - i mean clinton and trump. - [wendy] yes. (audience laughing) - clinton and trump. (audience laughing) clinton and trump. clinton and trump. - they have said that, and i've been a proud surrogate for hillary. i think i've done 16 different states for her right now, and one of the messages that i try to convey as i talk about her is my 30-year experience of watching this woman fight the very battles that we're still fighting today, and who will bring with her to the oval office, if we elect her, the temperament and the experience on these issues that will help to support her continuing to push for them in a way that someone who is gonna vote for them won't be. - it's important that she's a woman in this case because she's lived this-- - she's lived it, and i talk a lot about this as i travel the country and i do some public speaking.

there's so much value in the experiences that we have, and when we show up wearing whatever shoes we're wearing, whether they're high heels or pink tennis shoes, the experiences that we've had, form are fight. - yep. - and, again, back to this idea of reflective democracy, if you don't have people of all races, cultures, sexual orientations, gender, etc. at the table, you aren't going to have their experiences, their life experiences that they know in a unique and powerful way, and that they'll be able to articulate in a unique and powerful way at the table. i know my experiences in the texas senate was very much like this. i would watch different colleagues who would grab hold of something that was really important to them, and it would become their cause, and they would bring us along with them on that issue because they were fighting so strongly for it.

so, yes, we would be a yes vote with them, but it might not have ever been something that came to the table if that person hadn't brought it. that's what i see about hillary. we've had friends in the white house on issues of gender equality. we've had friends in congress on issues of gender equality. but we've had very few people who bring with them in their gut and in their core, the fight on these issues that i know she will bring because i've been watching her do for 30 plus years. - so how do you persuade women, or young women particularly, since that's the target of the deeds not words effort, that they should be with her. you know there are, at least according to polling, and there seems to be the general acceptance of this, that a lot of young women, college-aged women, are with him, and not with her, and in this case him, we do mean sanders, not trump. - right. (laughing) - do you believe what madeleine albright said, somewhat controversially a few months ago, that there's a special place in hell for women who don't support

other women? - no. - so you accept that some women may just choose to make a different choice. - absolutely. no question. that's the whole point of feminism. that we're entitled to full equality, and that full equality also means the ability to make our own choices for ourselves that we believe are right. - right. - in this particular race, as we get through the democratic primary, it's my hope that we will come together and coalesce around the candidate that we believe is going to fight for our values. i feel that, while not all of bernie sanders's supporters will join that rank, most of them will. i was a hillary supporter back in 2008, and i close ranks around barack obama, and i have been so proud to support him, so i feel like we're gonna see the same thing happening. - and then you get into the fall, and you are, as they say, never trump. - i am never trump. - [evan] right. is there a way-- is there a way-- (laughter)

least surprising thing said in the history of this program. (laughter) is there a way to think about gender in this election, and this general election that presumes your election between trump and clinton, without going to the stereotype, or the caricature of trump? i mean, we've gotten to think about trump almost as like a parade float. he hardly seems real, but there are fundamental issues at the center of this election that relate to the work that you're doing. - there most definitely are. i haven't heard him say a word on these particular issues. deeds not words is a 501(c)(3) that's aimed at helping young women to plug in both in the electoral arena, but also in other ways. it's not aimed at dictating or advocating for a particular candidate, but i expect that our audience, as well as people throughout this country, are going to have an opportunity

to see where these two people line up on issues that matter very much to us. and the debates will obviously provide an opportunity for that to happen. we haven't heard him say anything about his perspectives on equality of pay or family leave policies. we've certainly heard his position on reproductive rights where he said that women actually ought to be punished if they have an abortion in this country, so we know at the very least that he is an adversary on a lot of these topics, and i think that it's going to provide her with an opportunity to really clarify that, as two people, they are not two sides of the same coin. they are two very different people that bring two very different values to the-- - that will be your message to both the former sanders' people, presuming there are former sanders' people in the fall, as well as to people on the other side who might be persuadable. that will be your message? - [wendy] yes.

- what are you going to do yourself going forward? i confess to thinking, seeing you on one of the cable channels a couple weeks ago as a surrogate for hillary clinton. she's gonna run against ted cruz for the senate. that's what she's gonna do, or she might actually get back in. i mean, i know there's an argument to be made-- (audience cheers and applause) i know there's an argument to be made that in some ways today you can do more good and be more powerful outside rather than inside, but have you resolved in your own mind whether you're done with elective office? - i have not resolved that. i loved serving. i loved it, and i would love an opportunity to do it again if it makes sense, but what i've tried to do, as i came out of the gubernatorial race is look up and determine how do i continue to fight for things that matter to me? how can i most productively use my voice? i'm finding a way

to use my voice that doesn't necessarily mean holding a microphone on the floor of an elective body, but i think it can be just as powerful. - part of this also, i suspect, and again, going back to deeds not words, is you're not only encouraging people to participate in all levels, but you're encouraging them to participate at the highest level to run for office themselves. even if it's not you, you're trying to get a generation of people to think public service is not as bad as everybody says. - i am, and also i think i'm a living, breathing example of what it can be like to be on the political stage, to be in a tough campaign, and to be scrutinized, in some ways uniquely, as a woman. - yup. - i want to make sure that other young women look at me as an example of survival of the tough terrain that that entails, and to learn from me, hopefully, the lessons that the only way messages like that win,

is when we allow them to. when we put our head down or shy away, and refrain from continuing to be involved, the way that we combat it, is to continue to put ourselves out there forcefully and with confidence on issues that we know matter very, very much to people in this country. one of the things that young women will find on my website is a number of organizations that are all about helping young women run for office: training them, encouraging them along the way, but also helping them to raise money to be successful candidates. - yeah, and that's regardless of party? - correct. - so you're happy to have young republican women come to you and say i'd like your lessons of being in office and running for office? - i would. - [evan] no buts. - i think we have to be very thoughtful about making sure that we're getting past that 24% number of people, women, right now, only 24% of electived offices are held by women right now.

women do better working across the aisle with each other typically than men do. i remember that the budget impasse a couple of years ago in the us senate, and it was the women that came together and formed a way out of that. women do well, whether they have rs or ds next to their name. i would hope that the women who are supported through my organization will come there because they care about so many of these gender equality issues, which i, again, don't think should have a partisan identification with them, though they often do. - yeah, well good luck with the work you're doing. - thank you. - nice to see you back in circulation. - happy to have you out here, wendy davis. thank you very much for spending time with us. - thank you. (audience cheers and applause) - [evan] we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard. find invitations to interviews, q and as

with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. - so many young women who feel passionate, who care very much, who want to make a difference, don't quite know how to plug in. what our site does is it provides them with real-world concrete tactical ways that they can get involved, connecting them with a host of organizations that work on gender equality. - [voiceover] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. also, by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. (perky music)