09/15/16 09/15/16 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> if i and other whistleblowers are sentenced to long years in prison without so much as a jury, it will have a deeply chilling effect on future whistleblowers, working as i did, to expose government over abuse -- abuse and overreach. it will corrode democracy. amy: it has been three years since national security agency whistleblower edward snowden released classified nsa files to media outlets that exposed global mass surveillance

operations by the u.s. and british governments. if snowden returned to the unitedteomusa wh he now lives in exile, he would faceharges of tht s secrets and violating the espionage act and face at least 30 years in prison. this week his supporters launched a new call for president obama to offer snowden clemency, a plea agreement, or a pardon before the end of his term. >> i am comfortable with the decisions i made. but i don't think it is up to me to decide the direction of the future of our society. i believe participatory multilateral -- we should intentionally try to remove the outside influence of particular individuals, and that includes myself. and that is why i myself do not ask for a pardon. amy: today we will host a debate about whether snowden should be pardoned with trevor timm, executive director of the freedom of the press foundation, and bradley moss, a national security attorney who has represented whistleblowers.

then "how the trump organization's foreign business ties could upend u.s. national security." a sweeping new investigation by "newsweek," rses questions about the little known trump organization, a vast financial network that stretches from new york city to india, ukraine, china, brazil, argentina, turkey, and russia. this comes as trump has repeatedly attacked the clinton foundation during the primary campaign. we'll speak with the reporter who broke the story, "newsweek's" kurt eichenwald. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the american civil liberties union and other human rights organizations have launched a campaign asking president obama to pardon nsa whistleblower edward snowden before obama leaves office. among those who have signed onto the campaign are apple co-founder steve wozniak, actors

martin sheen, danny glover and susan sarandon, writers rebecca solnit and terry tempest williams, and pentagon papers whistleblower dan ellsberg. at an event in new york city, aclu executive director anthony romero called for a pardon. >> presents for president obama to use the presidential power, a pardon, proudly and unequivocally in recognition of one of the most important act of whistleblowing in modern history. by standing up for the privacy rights of his fellow citizens, individuals who read no idea the government had assumed such extraordinary and invasive powers in secret, edward snowden should be thanked and not punished. amy: full page ads calling for the pardon also ran wednesday in the "washington post" and "politico." edward snowden himself also appeared via video stream at the event in new york city wednesday. >> i love my country. i love my family.

life tove dedicated my both of them. these burdens i took on, i knew were coming. and no one should be in a position to make these kind of decisions -- that is not the kind of place we are supposed to be. but it doesn't have to be. of course i look forward to coming home, but i cannot support the persecution of those charged under an espionage act whenever committed no espionage. amy: we will host a debate on the growing calls for obama to pardon edward snowden after headlines. in news from the campaign trail, hillary clinton and donald trump have both released more information on their medical history. hillary clinton released a letter froher doctor saying she "continues to remain healthy and fit to serve as president of the united states."

this comes as hillary clinton returns to the campaign trail within event in north carolina -- with an event in north carolina today after spending a few days this week recovering from pneumonia. donald trump, in contrast, taped an interview with the controversial television persona dr. oz in which trump shows him copies of some of his recent physical last week. the full interview is slated to air today, but this is a clip. >> if your health is as strong as it seems, why not share your medical records? mr. trump: i have no problem in doing it. here. it right nea should i do it? [applause] it is two letters. amy: meanwhile, donald trump has continued to refuse to release his tax returns. in more campaign news, donald trump was confronted by a pastor while speaking in flint, michigan, wednesday. trump had been invited by

reverend faith green timmons to speak at the bethel united methodist church. this was trump's first visit to flint, where a lead contamination crisis has poisoned many of the city's residents, who are predominantly african american. but when trump veered off course and began to attack hillary clinton over her support for nafta, the pastor stepped in. mr. trump: hillary clinton supported nafta, supported china's entry to the world trade center -- >> mr. trump, i invited you here to thank as -- mr. trump: ok, ok. that's good. and i'm going to go back onto -- ok. ok. flint's pain is a result of so many different failures. rapidly wrapped up his speech. a trove of hacked emails released on the website dcleaks.com continues to reveal statements made by former secretary of state colin powell. in addition to a june 17 email

in which he called donald trump a national disgrace and an international pariah powell also , attacked trump in an email on august 21 for being one of the leaders of the "racist birther" movement, which falsely claims president obama wasn't born in the united states. in another e-mail, former secretary of state powell also called dick cheney and his daughter liz idiots, writing -- "they are idiots and spent force peddling a book that ain't going nowhere." the e-mail was a reference to the cheneys' book, "exceptional: why the world needs a powerful america." the united states is slated to end economic sanctions against burma after nearly 20 years. the move follows a meeting at the white house between president obama and burma's defacto leader aung san suu kyi, and the lifting of the sanctions comes as burma has transitioned to civilian rule, after being ruled for more than 50 years by the military. the obama administration and

burmese human rights activists are continuing to advocate for changes in burma's constitution in order to reduce the military's power. as well as ensure better treatment for burma's of thing minorities, including the persecuted who are not considered citizens in burma and are effectively stateless. a flotilla bound for gaza has set sail from the spanish port city of barcelona in efforts to break the ongoing israeli blockade. 22 female activists from across the world are aboard the women's boat to gaza. the two boats are also carrying medicine and food. israel has maintained a blockade of the gaza strip since 2007. last year, the women's boat to gaza was stopped and seized by the israeli navy. a new report by the united nations refugee agency says more than 3.5 million refugee children have no school to go to. the agency says the crisis grows more acute as children get older. while half of refugee children are able to attend primary school, only about 20% are able

to attend secondary school, and only 1% are able to attend university. in uruguay, a former guantanamo prisoner slipped into a coma on wednesday amid an ongoing hunger strike demanding he be allowed to leave uruguay and reunite with his family. abu wa'el dhiab was released from guantanamo in 2014, but he was barred from returning home to syria. instead, he was resettled in uruguay. earlier this year, he left uruguay in efforts to return home. in july, he was apprehended in venezuela and sent back to uruguay. now dhiab is on hunger strike, demanding he be allowed to reunite with his family. while in one-time oh, he launched a hunger strike to demand his freedom. was among a group of prisoners subjected to force-feeding. redacted video released by the u.s. government last year show guards restraining him and

feeding him against his will. human rights groups have long said the force-feeding of guantanamo prisoners amounts to torture. in new york hundreds of , unionized professors are returning to work at long island campusity's brooklyn nearly two weeks after the administration took the unprecedented step of barring them from campus after their contract expired. as part of the lockout, liu cut off 400 professors' email accounts and health insurance, and told them they would be replaced. the lockout sparked a wave of protests by both faculty and students, who arrived for the beginning of the school year to find their classes being taught by administrators with no experience in the fields. on wednesday, the administration agreed to end the lockout, restore faculty member's health insurance and permit them to , return to their classrooms. contract negotiations remain ongoing. to see our full coverage of the liu lockout, go to democracynow.org.

in north dakota, another eight people were arrested wednesday after people locked themselves to heavy machinery to stop construction of the $3.8 billion dakota access pipeline, which has faced months of resistance from the standing rock sioux tribe and members of hundreds of other tribes from across the united states, canada, and latin america. wednesday's action took place near almont, north dakota, about 80 miles away from the main protest camps along the cannonball river. this comes only a day after more than 20 people were arrested on also stopping pipeline tuesday, construction around the same area. dallas goldtooth of the indigenous environmental network said tuesday's and wednesday's actions to the northwest of the river reflect "our opposition is not just to the river crossing, but to the very premise of this pipeline." the morton county sheriff's department says it is pursuing felony reckless endangerment charges related to wednesday's protest, which carries a maximum

penalty of five years in prison. the atlantic coast conference has announced it's moving its sports championship events of out of north carolina in response to the state's decision to pass the anti-lgbt law known as hb2, or the bathroom bill. the law nullifies ordinances protecting lgbt people from discrimination and prohibits transgender people from using the bathroom that matches their gender identity. this comes after the ncaa also announced it was moving its seven championship events of out -- out of north carolina for this academic year. also in north carolina a unc , football player has turned himself in seven months after he was accused of raping a fellow the 19-year-old woman, delaney robinson, went public earlier --o denounce the way the university treated her and handled the case. she says she was attacked on

valentine's day night by linebacker allen artis, whom she says pinned her down and raped her. she says she went to the hospital the next morning, and then reported the attack to university administrations, whom she says asked her accusatory questions, including whether she led him on, and how many men she had slept with in her life. she says she later heard the recordings of the administrators' questioning of the football player. it was a strikingly different manner. >> the humiliation turned to rage when i watched recorded interview of my rapist by the investigators. rather than accusing him of anything, they provided reassurances to him. they even laughed with them when he told them how many girls phone numbers he had managed to get on the same night that he raped me. they told him, don't sweat it. just keep on living your life

and keep on playing football. amy: the university of north carolina football player, allen artis, has now been charged with two misdemeanors -- sexual battery and assault on a female. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. it has been three years since national security agency whistleblower edward snowden released classified nsa files to media outlets that exposed global mass surveillance operations by the u.s. and british governments. he now charged with theft of state secrets and violating the espionage act, for which he faces at least 30 years in prison. he currently lives in political exile in russia. this week snowden's supporters , launched a newall for president obama offer snowden clemency, a plea agreement or a pardon before the end of his term. today we'll look at how the new campaign has reignited a debate over what punishment, if any, snowden should face.

at the event in new york city on wednesday, the aclu, human rights watch, and amnesty international called for snowden to be pardoned. this is aclu's ben wizner, snowden's attorney. >> with respect to the question about whether we are applying to the department of justice, respectfully, the constitution assigns this authority to the president, not to a lawyer in the department of justice. and it does so for a reason. because the pardon power is with essentially a political power. it is about when a president decides their overriding national reasons not to enforce the law as written. in a run-of-the-mill case, it might make sense to set up her bureaucracy to handle those kinds of requests. i don't think i need to say this is not a run-of-the-mill case. this is one that has serious geopolitical consequences and so

this campaign is directed only at one person and that person is the president. nermeen: that's the aclu's ben wizner speaking wednesday. on the same day, the guardian published about 20 statements on the case from prominent people, including professors noam chomsky and cornel west, black lives matter activists, and politicians. among them was former democratic presidential challenger senator bernie sanders of vermont, who argued snowden educated the public about how the nsa's mass surveillance program violated their constitutional rights. sanders called for a resolution to the case that acknowledged snowden's troubling revelations should "spare him a long prison sentence or permanent exile." amy: the guardian also published comments from those who do not defend snowden. former nsa director michael hayden said snowden should face "the full force of the law" if he returns to the united states. former nsa counsel stewart baker wrote that snowden's leak caused harm to u.s. national interests. meanwhile, edward snowden himself spoke out on wednesday

in a press conference where he and others announced a pardon snowden petition. snowden spoke via video stream from moscow. >> while i am grateful for the support given to my case, this really isn't about me. it is about us. it is about our right to dissent. it is about the kind of country we want to have, the kind of world that we want to build. it is about the kind of tomorrow that we want to see. the tomorrow where the public has a say. history reminds us that governments always experience periods in which the powers are abused for different reasons. this is why our founding fathers, in their wisdom, sought to construct a system of checks and balances. whistleblowers, acting in the

public interest, often at great risk to themselves, are another check on those abuses of power. especially, through their collaboration with journalists. edward co that was snowden. in 2013, while snowden's whereabouts were still undisclosed, donald trump called for snowden's execution during an interview on fox and friends. mr. trump: neil days, spies were executed. this guy is becoming hero in some circles. i will say with the passage of time, even people that were sort of liking them and maybe trying to go on his side or maybe dropping out, but when you look at where he goes -- know what he knows where he is. but we have to get him back and we have to get it back fast. it could take years or months, but maybe years. that would be pathetic. this guy is a bad guy. there is still a thing called execution.

you have to take a strong -- you have thousands of people with access to a kind of material like this. we're not whenever country any longer. amy: the new push to pardon edward snowden comes as the hollywood version of his story opens in theaters this week. on wednesday, we interviewed "snowden" director oliver stone and actor joseph gordon-levitt, who played snowden. today we host a debate about whether snowden should be pardoned. joining us here in new york is trevor timm, executive director of the freedom of the press foundation and a columnist at the guardian. in washington, d.c., bradley moss national security attorney , who has represented whistleblowers as well as people from within the intelligence community. we welcome you both to democracy now! trevor timm, whitey think edward snowden should be pardoned? >> quite simple he, he's the most important whistleblower we of seen and that at least to generation. anything about what has happened since he first came forward three half years ago, a federal

court has ruled the mass surveillance program is illegal. congress has passed or the first -- intelligence reform in 40 years. there has been a sea change of public opinion of privacy online. and then we have seen the tech companies on the private side, and set of collaborating with the nsa, which edward snowden also revealed, have also turned and are implementing all sorts of security and encryption features that protect people's privacy and security. and prevent this type of mass surveillance from happening in the first place. nermeen: bradley moss, your response? do you think you should be pardoned? all.do not at what trevor and a lot of mr. stones advocates to a lo good job at revealing the small things he revealed, the telephone data program, 702 was the internet data collection,

but they largely geomet or gloss over everything else that mr. snowden leaked. he leaked how the nsa spies on chinese governments and how it was spying on certain chinese companies that had ties to the chinese military. they overlook how the exposed what is called operation mystic, spying operations in iraq and afghanistan. they overlook how he exposed technical details of a specific spy ship, a spy vessel, that was working in various parts of the world to intercept data. the idea of pardoning someone who's leaks went far beyond anything of american civil liberties and was exposing the basic elements of signals intelligence -- which is what in a say is supposed to do, that is their job -- the idea of pardoning someone in that circumstance is ludicrous. amy: trevor timm? >> a couple of things. one thing we have to relies is the amount of documents as unreleased himself is zero. he gave these documents to some

of the most respected journalists in the country as some of the most well-known papers, which, by the way, ended up winning pulitzer prizes for their stories. it was these journalists who decided what was in the public interest in what may have affected national security and actually consulted with government officials before publishing the stories. the government was allowed to make objections. to,nd that, i think we have you know, think about this as a global issue. it is not just the united dates and american citizens that deserve privacy rights. these mass surveillance systems that are happening around the globe, i think, are a cause for alarm for literally billions of people. what snowden critics do not bring up a lot of times is actually, the obama administration changed the rules for its global spying network, too, because of these stories. there were executive roles that have been tightened also because of the snowden revelations. so, certainly, the domestic spying revelations had the

biggest impact, but i don't think we should discount the other stories that were published by journalist at "the washington post" and "the guardian." nermeen: do you think there has been some beneficial effects from snowden's revelations? >> there were some tightening on how things were run, particularly on the domestic side and in terms of the telephone data program and the usa freedom act that was passed. i will give him credit for that. if doj were ever to get this to a trial, i would not even bother bringing up those leaks it has it would just muddy the water. what trevor gets into, and i've heard this argument a lot of times, first, snow did not publish anything. it is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. the law does not care whether or not he published a document. he was authorized for access to classified information, removed it from a secure location which it was supposed to be, and give it to unauthorized individuals, namely, journalists like glenn

greenwald and laura poitras. bye of them had been vetted the u.s. government for access to classified information. i hold a security fence due to the nature of some of my clients. i had to go through the vetting. about 4 million people also hold clearance. bybroke the sacred trust giving documents people were not authorized to have it. in terms of the other point that trevor made certain restrictions or limitations were now placed on how spying was done on individuals overseas, if mr. snowden believed that should be rate -- and that is not a issue -- if you thought congress was not fully aware of the extent of it, those are things he could've brought to congress. he could've gone to the intelligence committees, got individual senators or members of congress. i am sure rand paul would've been more than willing to her

information about this. but that is the job of congress for the purpose of oversight. we live and the republican form of government where we elect to serve in the legislature to oversee the executive branch in which we elect a president and vice president to implement the laws passed by congress. by doing what he did, mr. snowden circumvented that and said, i don't care what any of you have decided, i'm going to shame you into changing. that, snowdent could have gone up even the chain of command where he worked or gone to congress? >> this is a common thing that snowden critics often say and it is pretty ridiculous. first of all, snowden was a contractor, so a lot of the whistleblower protections that exist would not have applied to him. there is a much larger issue here. this was not some rogue nsa agent that he was trying to expose or some program that only a handful people knew about. this was authorized, the mass surveillance program which collected every single phone

call of every single american, this was authorized at the highest levels of government, but the executive branch, the secret fisa court. snowden would essentially have an going to his superiors to tell them what they were doing was illegal and unconstitutional. it is ridiculous to think they would have responded in any way beyond casting more suspicion. in fact, there were high-level nsa officials that tried to go to the heads of the nsa before about this very same program and were rebuffed. the only option he had was to go to the press. amy: we will talk more about that in a minute. when we come back from break, we will talk to trevor timm, executive director of the freedom of the press foundation, and a columnist at the guardian. in washington, bradley moss, national security attorney. we will be back with both in a moment. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as we continue to conduct a debate about the campaign this week that is calling for the pardoning of edward snowden. nermeen: during a democratic presidential debate last year, hillary clinton was asked if she viewed nsa whistleblower edward snowden as a hero or a traitor. this excerpt begins with hillary clinton and then cnn's anderson cooper. mrs. clinton: he broke the laws of the united states. he could have been a whistleblower. he could have gotten the protections of being a whistleblower. he could have raised all of the issues he has raced and i think there would have been a positive response to that. stole very, he important in formation that has, unfortunately, fallen into a lot of the wrong hands. i don't think you should be brought home without facing the

music. nermeen: speaking at a press conference on wednesday, edward snowden said whistleblowers should not be tried under the espionage act. >> if we are to sustain a free society through the next century, we must ensure whistleblowers can act again and safely as a check on future abuses of how her. act, whichspionage is the law under which most modern whistleblowers are charged, it is not possible to receive a fair trial. i have long said that i would return were it otherwise, but the espionage act does not permit a public interest or whistleblower defense. those charged under it are silenced by law. they are prohibited from exercising their right to tell a jury, why they acted in their

belief, to protect the constitution or the public interest. this world war i-era law does not distinguish between those who freely give it a go information to journalists and the public interest or spies who sell it to a foreign power for their own. amy: that is edward snowden speaking yesterday, on wednesday, via video stream from moscow, into a news conference that is calling for his pardon, calling for president obama to act before the end of his term. we're joined by bradley moss, national security attorney, and trevor timm, freedom of the press foundation, to continue this debate. bradley moss, what about this point? hillary clinton is not alone saying edward snowden should return and face the music. edward snowden saying under the espionage act, he cannot make his case. >> i think he is somewhat

confusing the issue a little bit. to be clear, yes, on the culpability stage, the initial part of the prosecution under the law which has been upheld by constitutional in terms of these particular details of the espionage act, he would not be able to make a public interest defense at the culpability stage. however, at the sentencing stage, for purposes of mitigation and trying to minimize the extent of his sentence, if any, he could bring it up. this is something he'll must always glosses over. when you listen to how he explains that coming says, i will come home if the law is basically changed for me. it is a bit of puts but it mr. stones for to basically say i am warm port in the law that was put in place by elected legislators, being of limited by elected members of the executive branch, and has been upheld by properly appointed members of the judiciary. that he alone should be special enough to get a special privilege.

amy: what about that? he may not give the raises defense in the trial, but it's found guilty, he could raise it at sentencing. >> this is important point which i don't the gilad of the public understands, which is that it would literally be in admissible for him to tell the jury's motivation, which was to inform the american public. all of the benefits for his leaks, like the new laws that have been passed in the court rulings -- amy: why is that? thise espionage act is draconian law from the world war i era written so broadly that it means the prosecution only has very small portions of the law -- which includes did he give classified information to a person unauthorized to see it? he freely admits this. amy: so change a law. changehould absolutely the law, but the law is unconstitutional. by theever been ruled on

supreme court because her has a been a lot of these cases in the past. unfortunately, it is very expensive to go to the supreme court when you're whistleblower in your life has been destroyed by government that you are trying to help. you can say in the sentencing stage snowden would be able to talk about these things, but let's think about chelsea manning. chelsea manning also had the opportunity to talk about these inks in her sentencing stage -- these things in her sentencing stage. the break wikileaks whistleblower. the government freely admitted no one had come to her because of chelsea manning's disclosures, yet she received 35 years in prison. i really don't think edward snowden should come back if he is facing decades or life in jail and wanted to be a little or jury why he did what he did. nermeen: bradley moss, can you respond to that? is chelsea manning's case relevant and doesn't set a precedent? don't dispute chelsea

manning got 30 something years, but the other part, chelsea manning was supposed to get more. that was a reduced sentence to what it could've been. i believe it could have been as much as life in prison. at one point, they were going to pursue the death penalty, which thankfully did not happen. but the punishment that chelsea manning got was not what she could have gotten because it was reduced at sentencing. your comes the point again where -- here comes the point again where as far as mr. snowden is concerned, it doesn't matter congress has not changed the law, it doesn't matter that he has an army of lawyers -- as far as i'm concerned are well credentialed and could take this to the supreme court -- he is saying, i am so special, you should do it anyways for me. you should not make me go through all of that. amy: bradley moss, you represent whistleblowers. can you talk about how you see the whistleblowers you represented versus ed snowden? >> there many different types.

here is where there is a different sometimes between i would say the ed snowden versus -- and chelsea manning versus some that i represent. for edward snowden, it was not just about raising concern. for him and his advocates, it is there has to be a change, that if they raise the concern there some type of obligation on the government to make the change because of the concern. that is not how democratic -- excuse me, that is not how a form of government works. it is not his call to make. individuals wehe represent, it is want to the proper channels and making sure you can go back and do your job and go back to your life. when i tell people, look, there is no dispute -- trevor and i probably on the same page here -- the whistleblower process as it is currently setup is by no

means great or good. there is a lot of retaliation that exist. but if you do what i will advise you to do and go to the proper steps, you have a chance to raise your concerns and go back to your life. if you do what edward snowden did, your clearance is gone. you will be fired and likely face criminal charges. >> is edward snowden did what saying, we would never have heard about this mass surveillance program. none of the changes we have seen over the last three years would have happened. he would have been put under a cloud of suspicion. you probably would have lost his job like a lot of other whistleblowers who try to go through these "proper channels" you know, back in the bush of administration, william denny, one of the top nsa executives tried to internally go to his nsa superiors and say the were breaking the law. the fbi showed up at his house when he was in the shower naked with guns drawn and put him of anh absolute hell

investigation that lasted years. this happened to multiple people. i think edward snowden saw that in sabe only way he was going to affect change was to go to the press. i think there are millions of people that are happy he did. nermeen: i want to go to another point that critics of snowden have made, namely that his leaks have endangered the u.s. national security. glenn greenwald, the lead journalist who exposed nsa mass surveillance based on edward in an interview with democracy now! following the terrorist attacks in paris last november, greenwald refuted -- that the snowden leaks may have helped the perpetrators. >> think about how many large-scale mass terrorist attacks were successfully perpetrated long before anyone knew the name edward snowden? you have the 2002 bombing of the nightclub in bali, the 2004 happened to thousand five attacks on the trains in madrid and london, the 2008 math shooting spree in mumbai, april

2013 attack on the boston marathon -- all of which were successful multi-terrorist plots carried out without the u.s. detecting them, long before anyone knew the name edward snowden. if you're someone who wants to blame edward snowden or the andlosures for this attack, you have to answer, how did all of those other attacks take place without the cia or nsa discovering them? what edward snowden taught the world is not that the u.s. government was trying to spy on terrorists -- everybody, including terrorists, have known that -- what the snowden revelations show the world is it isn't just the terrorist they're spying on, but everybody in the world. that is why they are so angry about these terrorist attacks. nermeen: that was glenn greenwald last november, arguing against critics who claim snowden's leaks helped terrorists. riley moss, your response to that? doesn'ttunately, glenn know one way or the other the extent to which the leaks by mr.

snowden compromised vital intelligence operations that could have detected these things. let's be clear, neither trevor nor i nor anyone on this program knows those pacified details because they are classified. -- knows those classified. knowiduals and congress the details. we do know the various programs were compromised. of course everyone knew nsa spied on people will for edward snowden. but snowden show the vast extent of how much they have been able to do. he revealed which particular applications of software programs nsa have been able to hack into an intercept. he gave a playbook, essentially, of here is what we have cracked and what we have not cracked, by all means, all of our adversaries, take note of this. you may have noticed use encryption, but now you know which methods we have beaten and which ones we haven't. please, by all means, use that to your vantage now and cut off whichever means --

communications you were using that were using this particular encryption apps. there is a lot of discussion in the immediate aftermath of mr. snowden's leaks that say sources went quiet, that various programs which have been compromised, which had to be rebuilt, they lost months, weeks, years worth of data in the interim while rebuilding it because of these leaks, because not just terrorists, various foreign adversaries learned how we were doing these things, learned the details of it and were able to adjust. amy: trevor timm, your response to bradley moss? >> the idea that terrorists did not know nsa was using any means possible to spy on them his lovable. nsa was gathering information on the entire population of the u.s. and the world. millions and millions of innocent people learned what their government was doing. by the way, what they were doing was illegal, which federal feels court ruled in which congress

later curtailed the program. i think we have to keep it in perspective here. there are countless stories from pre-snowden in major newspapers around the world talking about usingrrorists have in sophisticated encryption since the 1990's, since they know the nsa tracks your cell phone calls. you know, this is an obvious red herring that a lot of government officials try to bring up to distract from the fact they were breaking the law. amy: i want to wrap up with both of you talking about what exactly is being asked for here and get bradley moss' response. full-page ads in "the washington ,, sycamorepardon plea deal calls. explain all of these options. >> we're calling for a pardon. if anyone wants to sign on and support the campaign, they can go to partsnowden -- pardonsnow

den.org. we believe what he did is a gift and millions of people feel the same. amy: were you surprised by eric holder's comment? >> yes, he said a few months ago that edward snowden a public service. amy: that is not how he acted when he was attorney general. >> obama himself said this debate would make as stronger as a nation and so i think he can really, put his words and actions and -- amy: pardon, clemency. what would that be? >> clemency is usually for people who have already been convicted and are serving a sentence. supplements he would be appropriate for chelsea manning, lemency would be appropriate for tilting manning. there's the possibility the obama image to wish and could clean deal with edward snowden

so both sides agreed to -- amy: is that in any way in the works? >> i cannot speak for snowden and his legal team, but i can say we think that a pardon is certainly appropriate here. president often used pardons for people who have committed reprehensible crimes and often things that are -- that the about.is wary and the situation, president obama can use his pardon power the mostand give important whistleblower of our generation a chance to come home. nermeen: bradley moss, your response to the points trevor timm has raised? >> look, if edward snowden had only leaked the details of the domestic programs that we have discussed already, i could empathize with the idea of pardon or a plea deal that had no jail time. i could empathize and be on

board with it to an extent. i cannot fathom an american president -- any american president -- pardoning someone who has leaked the extent of signalsfensive intelligence operations overseas on all number of foreign adversaries and terrorist organizations. as far as i'm concerned, the intelligence committee would put its here on fire of the president tried to pardon edward snowden and i just chose to him doing that most of amy: what do you think? you can go to democracynow.org, facebook, tweet, let us know what side you come down on. i want to thank you both for this discussion. bradley moss, and national security attorney in washington, d.c., and trevor timm, director of the freedom of the press foundation and a columnist at the guardian. when we come back, we look at the vast trump empire and what it would mean, what would happen with his businesses if he became president trump. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. my: nermeen: a sweeping investigation has raised questions about the little known trump organization and potential conflicts of interests should trump became president. the investigation published in "newsweek" magazine reveals the trump organization is a vast financial network that stretches from new york city to india, ukraine, china, brazil, argentina, turkey, and russia. it's connected to russian mining, banking, and real estate billionaire vladimir potanin, who himself is closely tied to the russian government. trump's frequent praise of russian president vladimir putin has already sparked concern among national security experts about u.s. foreign policy under a possible trump presidency. the report concludes -- "if donald trump wins this election and his company is not

immediately shut down or forever severed from the trump family, the foreign policy of the united states of america could well be for sale." amy: this comes as trump has repeatedly attacked the clinton foundation during the primary campaign, alleging that during hillary clinton's term as secretary of state she may have given major contributors to the foundation greater access. clinton responded wednesday to the "newsweek" investigation with a tweetstorm of 20 questions for trump. among the tweets she writes -- "while refusing to release your tax returns, how will you confirm that you do not have dangerous financial ties to bad actors abroad?" and "if you were willing to work with qaddafi -- a known terrorist and dictator -- is there anyone you aren't willing to make a deal with? who?" well, for more, we're joined by kurt eichenwald, senior writer at "newsweek." is the report is headlined "how , the trump organization's foreign business ties could upend u.s. national security." he's also a contributing editor at "vanity fair" and the author

of the books, "500 days" and "the informant." welcome to democracy now! why don't you lay out what you found? organization,rump very simply, donald trump cannot be in any way connected to the trump organization and the president of the united states. you start right there. the trump organization has connections overseas through business partners. business partners who are undisclosed. business partners who are tied to foreign governments, who are tied to foreign criminals, who are tied -- who have interests that run contrary to the interests of american national security. and they are paying donald trump through subsidiaries that in turn are sending the money to the trump organization that is in turn going to donald trump. amy: you have to be specific here.

>> circumstance were trump is going to have to decide to take a very simple example, whether he is going to support his business partner who is paying him millions of dollars in turkey or whether he is going to go against him so that we can air baseaccess to the there that is part of the campaign against isis. amy: can you be more specific -- >> high-level issues -- amy: can you be more specific when you talk about that actors and who exactly donald trump is doing business with? >> let's take his partner, a very easy one, the man is the son of a senior government minister who american intelligence has concluded is laundering money for the iranian military. so think about that for a second. donald trump's business partner

is family with a man that the american government says is laundering money for an enemy of the united states. donald trump has tried to do business with the market often. donald trump has done business with people who their governments are pursuing them criminally. you end up in a situation where there are now governments, because of donald trump's business dealings in the country , in turkey and the uae, also in a convoluted way in saudi arabia, where they say publicly and privately they are not going to work with the trump administration. poke. buying a pig in a we do not know about this guy's health. we don't all about his businesses. this took me an incredible amount of time just to unwind 15 at of 500 partnerships.

nermeen: what about -- >> who is he doing business with? they won't tell anybody. nermeen: in the article, you talk about the terms organizations relationship with the south korean company as well as the indian property developer and other companies in india. why are those relationships problematic? >> with the south korean company, trump has been going on how theampaign about south korean government should pick up more of its military expenses in the south koreans should be coming a nuclear power. if you pursues that policy, one of the biggest beneficiaries is going to be his business partner. with india, you have a scenario where trump's business partners are directly interlinked with two political parties there.

issueesult, there is an that has been created relating to india and pakistan, because these are not two groups it along well and pakistan, because of trump's anti-muslim position, already hates him. so you have a scenario where trump has to make choices of, is he going to put pressure on the partnerso benefit his -- some of whom are in trouble there? is he going to ignore his partners? is he going to pursue an interest leading toward pakistan? we have a mess of irreparable financial conflicts where trump's position is just going to have to be, "trust me." given his response to this has been an intentional effort at dissection, i don't see how anyone can trust him.

he says he is going to put his company into a blind trust. people who don't know any better will think that sounds good. a blind trust, what you do is you take a portfolio of investments, turn them over to an individual who is independent from you, and then they are trading the investments and you don't know what is in that trust. you can't take a company and say, i have now put my company in a blind trust. you know exactly what is in the trust. and go let's go to donald trump. during republican debate back in january, moderator maria bartiromo asked donald trump about how he would handle his assets should he be elected president. >> mr. trump, your net worth is in the multi-billions of dollars and have an ongoing thriving hotel and real estate business. are you planning on putting more assets in a blind trust should you become president? with such vast wealth, how difficult will it be for you to disentangle yourself from your business and your money and prioritize america's interests

first? mr. trump: it is interesting because i am proud of my companies. you know i built a very great company. if i become president, i could not care less about my company. it is peanuts -- i want use the same up here, whatever it may be, to make america a rich again. i have ivanka and eric and don -- kids go have a good time, because i'm going to do a for america. >> so you would for your assets in a blind trust? mr. trump: i don't know if it is a blind trust if my kids run it, but it would probably have my children run it with my evertives and i would not be involved because i would not care about anything but our country. and ago that was donald trump months ago. but on wednesday, yesterday, donald trump's daughter ivanka trump appeared on "good morning

america" and was also asked about a possible conflict of interest with the trump organization should donald trump become president. >> as a private business, we can make decisions that are not in our best interest. we're not beholden to anyone come to shareholders. we can say, you know what? do that deal,g to even know it is a fine joke, it is economically prudent. we will act credibly responsibly. my father said he would put the company into a blind trust and it would be run by us, so he is been very articulate on that fact and outspoken. but this is so much bigger than another deal, and we all recognize that. amy: that is ivanka trump. kurt eichenwald, your response? >> they are lying. they're either lying or stupid. you cannot put a company into a blind trust. you cannot have your children running a blind trust. you cannot have people who are in a private company saying, well, i think this creates a

conflict for national security. is donald trump going to be sharing classified intelligence with the trump organization so they can figure out which one creates a conflict in which one doesn't? will they know that doing a deal, for example in india, is going to create a conflict of interest? who is going to tell them? we will be relying on ivanka trump to decide whether or not america is going to have a president who is focused exclusively on the interest of the national security interests of the united states? there is never been a scenario like this. and it is frustrating for me because i have been sitting here watching television and reading articles about what is going on, and, you know, everybody is ozping and hawing about dr. getting a couple of pages from donald trump and members of the present are spending 15, 20 minutes on tv talking about, well, this is ridiculous, why

would anyone cover this? then you get to topics that are and they and are meaty let members of the trump organization go on tv, tell -- make statements that are completely irrational and falls and move back onto dr. oz or hillary clinton's hangnail or something like that. amy: how is donald trump losing his tax returns let us know about the trump empire? >> it actually would not do it. that is the problem. releasing the tax returns would let you know how much money is coming through the partnerships too the trump organization donald trump. it would tell you his charitable contributions. it would tell you his marginal tax rate, but it would not tell you who are those entities doing business with. in the end, what donald trump needs to release is not just his

taxes, we need to see all of the taxes, all of the partnership relationships, you know, who are the people that are lined up that he is pulled into that he goes into office knowing he is beholden to. he is not going to go in office and suddenly forget who all of his partners are right now. but is there any chance that will happen? of course not. amy: your piece is so extensive, we will ask you to stay for a few minutes after the show and we will continue to talk about what donald trump says about the clinton foundation and how it compares and also his role in russia and how that might be determining his views of president putin. we're talking to kurt eichenwald , senior writer at "newsweek" and a contributing editor at "vanity fair." his most recent article for "newsweek" is called, "how the trump organization's foreign business ties could upend u.s. national security." he's the author of the books, "500 days" and "the informant." that does it for our show. happy birthday to sam alcoff. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed

captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693

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