04/10/17 04/10/17 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> the central intelligence agency lost control of this entire cyber weapons arsenal. act ofis is an historic devastating incompetence to have created such an arsenal and anded it all in one place, not secured it. amy: today, a democracy now! exclusive -- julian assange, the founder of wikileaks, for the hour. we will look at the massive trove of secret cia documents published by wikileaks that

exposed how the agency had been able to hack into personal phones, computers, and televisions all over the world. plus, we will talk to julian assange about wikileaks actions before the 2016 election when they published tens of thousands of internal emails from the democratic national committee and hillary clinton's campaign chair john podesta. was russia the source of the humility? the fbi for suggested it was, but indirectly. quick you know whether they dealt directly with wikileaks or whether they, too, used an intermediary? >> they did not deal directly with wikileaks in contrast to christopher 2.0. amy: we will get julian response. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. global tensions are rising following the united states'

missile attack on a syrian airbase late thursday night. president trump said the attack on the shayrat air base, which came without u.s. congressional approval, was a response to a chemical weapons attack the syrian government allegedly launched from this base last week. this attack in khan sheikhoun killed 86 civilians, including dozens of children. international allies of the syrian government, including russia, iran, and hezbollah, have vowed to retaliate against any future attacks against the syrian regime. on sunday, the group issued a joint statement saying -- "the aggression against syria oversteps all red lines. we will react firmly to any aggression against syria and to any infringement of red lines, whoever carries them out." over the weekend, russia also sent a warship armed with cruise missiles to the coast of syria in response to the u.s. attack. meanwhile, u.s. ambassador to the u.n. nikki haley now says president bashar al-assad's ouster is inevitable.

>> so there is multiple priorities. it is getting -- getting assad out is that the only priority. obviously, we are trying to defeat isis. secondly, we do not see a peaceful syria with assad in there. thirdly, get the iranian influence out. finally, move toward a political solution because of the end of the day, this is a complicated situation for not there are no easy answers. a political situation will have knowppen, but we there's that sort of option where a political solution is going to happen with assad at the head of the regime. if you look at his actions in the situation, it will be hard to see a government that is peaceful and stable with assad. you is ambassador to the united nations nikki haley speaking to cnn. u.s. secretary of state rex tillerson is heading to russia on tuesday. ahead of the meeting, tillerson accused russia of being partially responsible for the chemical weapons attack, saying -- "either russia has been

complicit or russia has been simply incompetent." in russia, meanwhile, lawmaker mikhail yemelyanov has accused the united states of provoking a nuclear war. >> this act goes far beyond just syria because clearly, russia supports the legal syrian government and takes part to a certain skill in this conflict. therefore, such a strikes are an act not just against syria, but also against russia. moreover, when americans were striking the airport, they did not know if our citizens were there or not. this situation may lead at least to a repetition of the cuban missile crisis, which almost push the world on the edge of a nuclear war. amy: the u.s. attack on the airbase appears to have caused little damage to the syrian regime's military capabilities. the government was able to largely evacuate the base before the attack, since the u.s. had warned russia before the missile strikes. on friday, only hours after the attack, the base was once again

operational. on saturday, activists say at least one civilian was killed in airstrikes on a residential neighborhood of khan sheikhoun, the same town where the chemical weapons attack occurred on tuesday. majed khattab, a resident of the town, told the "washington post" -- "the american strikes did nothing for us. they can still commit massacres at any time." meanwhile, the stocks of the military contractor raytheon surged following the missile attack, which used 59 of the company's tomahawk missiles, estimated to cost $1.4 million a piece. as stocks surged, raytheon added about $1 billion to its market value friday morning. according to financial disclosure filings, president trump personally invests in raytheon, meaning he profited directly from the attack. egyptian president abdel fattah al-sisi has imposed a three-month state of emergency after bombings at two coptic christian churches killed at least 49 people during palm sunday services.

are to be steps taken. the first of which will be the declaration of a state of emergency after the necessary legal and constitutional procedures are complete, for three months in egypt. we are announcing the state of emergency only to protect our country and secure it, and prevent any interference with it. amy: isis has claimed responsibility for the two attacks on the st george's coptic church in the northern city of tanta, and the st. mark's cathedral in the northern city of alexandria. the state of emergency gives al-sisi's government even further power to continue its crackdown against human rights activists and journalists. it allows the government and its security forces to surveil all communications, confiscate property, arrest anyone suspected of violating the state of emergency laws, and shut down media outlets. on sunday, christians mourned the victims of the bombings. this is a priest in tanta, tawfik kobeish.

>> believe me, it is a miserable and painful feeling to go through this cruel experience. we don't expect people who live with us in the same country, people whom we have shared love and friendship with and are friendlier with us, to do these things. amy: the pentagon has is sending an aircraft carrier and several warships toward the korean peninsula in a major escalation of the conflict between the u.s. and north korea. the decision to reroute the aircraft carrier, known as the carl vinson, as well as three guided-missile destroyers and cruisers to the peninsula came only days after north korea launched its latest ballistics missile test. this missile reportedly flew only 37 miles. nbc news is reporting, citing unnamed military officials, that the national security council has presented president trump with a series of options on north korea, which include deploying u.s. nuclear weapons to south korea's osan air base. this would mark the united states' first overseas nuclear deployment since the end of the cold war. another option reportedly presented to president trump is

the assassination of north korean leader kim jong-un. and washington, d.c., neil gorsuch is being sworn in as a supreme court justice today. chief justice john roberts will administer the oath. on friday, gorsuch was confirmed by the senate in a 54-45 vote after republican lawmakers invoked the so-called nuclear option changing the senate's , rules in order to allow gorsuch to be confirmed by a simple majority. gorsuch has a long history of ruling against workers in cases involving federal race, sex, age, disability and political , discrimination and retaliation claims. his confirmation was opposed by democratic lawmakers, including senate minority leader chuck schumer. >> i hope judge gorsuch has listened to our debate here in the senate, particularly about our concerns about the supreme court increasingly drifting towards becoming a more pro-corporate court that favors employers, corporations, and special interest overworking

america. amy: neil gorsuch will fill the seat left vacant more than a year ago after justice antonin scalia died in february 2016. senate republicans refused to consider president obama's supreme court nomination of merrick garland. gorsuch's swearing-in today will end the longest supreme court vacancy since 1862. the journalistic monitoring group airwars says dozens of civilians have reportedly been killed iiraq over the last week by airstrikes carried out by either the u.s.-led coalition or the u.s.-backed iraqi army. on april 4, 20 civilians, including children, were reportedly killed in west mosul by airstrikes. the next day on april 5, more than 25 civilians were reportedly killed by multiple airstrikes on neighborhoods across west mosul. another airstrike that same day on anbar province reportedly killed eight civilians, including four children. also on april 5, airstrikes on a village to the northwest of mosul reportedly killed up to 40 civilians. the airstrikes are part of the u.s. and iraqi militaries

month-long campaign to retake the city of mosul from isis. in somalia, at least 15 people were killed in a car bombing targeting senior military officials in the capital mogadishu on sunday. the militant group al shabaab claimed responsibility for the attack, which destroyed a minibus carrying civilians, killing everyone on board. in kashmir, indian security forces killed at least eight civilians after the soldiers sunday opened fire on protesters demonstrating against indian rule of the territory. the demonstrations came during an election to fill a parliament seat, which was made vacant after a lawmaker resigned in protest of the killing of civilians during last summer's crackdown by indian security forces. in sweden, thousands of people gathered on sunday in stockholm's central square to commemorate the victims an attack on friday in which four people died and 15 more were injured after a man drove into a crowd of people.

the police say the suspected attacker was an uzbek asylum seeker whose application had been rejected and have been given four weeks to leave sweden in december. authorities say the man, who has been arrested, had shown support for extremist groups, such as isis. pentagon officials say a u.s. special forces soldier was killed in afghanistan over the weekend. the soldier, who has not been identified, was killed saturday night in nangarhar province. pentagon officials say the death came as u.s. and afghan military were carrying out a joint operation against militants affiliated with isis in achin district. in texas, thousands of people rallied in downtown dallas on sunday to protest president trump's plans for mass deportations, as well as his failed attempts to ban refugees and people from some majority-muslim nations from entering the united states. this is civil rights activist martin luther king iii speaking at the rally. >> what is important about this

demonstration, is christians and muslims and jews and hindus and people who may that americans ae coming together saying, we as america can and must do better. amy: arizona governor doug ducey has signed legislation that dramatically pushes education privatization by making every one of arizona's public school students eligible to receive state money to attend a private or religious school. the legislation was approved by the arizona house and senate with no support from a single democratic lawmaker. education secretary betsy devos is a major backer of these types of private school voucher programs, which divert public funding out of the public school system. in more education news, new york state is making tuition free at public universities for families with annual income of under $125,000. the free tuition plan, which will be phased in over the next three years, will cover all city university of new york and state

university of new york colleges and universities. the governor's office says the plan will affect nearly 1 million families across new york state. and an update to a case we've been following. one of new york's best-known immigrant rights advocates will not face deportation tomorrow. ravi ragbir, executive director of the new sanctuary coalition, had been ordered to check in with immigration and customs enforcement tuesday, even though he reported for another check-in just last month, accompanied by a number of city council members and a state senator as hundreds rallied outside. officials say he can now check in next january. this is ragbir describing how accompaniment works. >> when we partner u.s. citizens with immigrants who are in this crisis, not only for myself but many others, they are able to get the support from the community so they are not in this fearful space, but also

treated with respect. amy: faith groups are planning to hold an interfaith seder tomorrow morning at 26 federal plaza in new york city to call for lasting immigration reform. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. juan: and i'm juan gonzalez. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. today we spend the hour with julian assange, the founder of wikileaks. it's been nearly five years since he entered the ecuadorian embassy in london seeking political asylum fearing a swedish arrest warrant could lead to his extradition to the united states. despite being holed up in the embassy, assange's impact is still being felt across the globe. his asylum case recently became an issue in the ecuadorian presidential election. the right-wing candidate guillermo lasso had vowed to remove assange from the embassy if he won.

but lasso lost to ruling party candidate lenin moreno who said assange is welcome to stay. meanwhile, wikileaks recently began releasing a massive trove of secret cia documents that exposed how the agency had developed tools to hack into and spy on personal phones, computers, and televisions all over the world. wikileaks described the leak as largest ever release of confidential documents on the cia. amy: wikileaks' activity before the 2016 election is also still generating headlines. just before the democratic national convention last wikileaks published 20,000 july, internal emails from the democratic national committee. within two days, the head of the dnc, debbie wasserman schultz, resigned her post in part because the emails showed the dnc worked behind the scenes to discredit and defeat bernie sanders who was challenging , hillary clinton for the

nomination. less than three months later, wikileaks began publishing internal emails from clinton's campaign chairman john podesta. soon donald trump was praising , wikileaks on the campaign trail. pres. trump: this just came out. this just came out. wikileaks -- i love wikileaks. amy: between october 7 and election day, wikileaks would go on to publish 20,000 of podesta's emails generating a rash of negative stories for the clinton campaign. juan: u.s. intelligence agencies have accused russia of hacking the dnc and podesta accounts but many questions still remain about what happened. during a recent congressional hearing, fbi director james comey placed the blame on russia intelligence when questioned by congressman adam schiff. >> do you know whether the russian intelligence services dealt directly with wikileaks or whether they, too, used an intermediary? some cutess they used

of cut out. they did not deal directly with wikileaks. in contrast to ducey leaks and guccifer 2.0. amy: that was james comey on march 20. running us now from the ecuadorian embassy in london is julian assange, the founder of wikileaks. welcome back to democracy now! >> good morning, amy. amy: did russia leak the documents, either the dnc documents or the john podesta emails to wikileaks? >> we understand quite clearly our source is not a member of any state, clearing the russian government. if you look at the statements by james comey, james clapper, going back a couple of months, statements from barack obama, they all harmonious description. what the u.s. investigation by james comey seems to be trying

to say, at least in public, is that they perceive there was some russian hacking, or what -- at least some hacking somewhere from the dnc -- the allegations are several thousands of people were hacked in those operations. amy: but how do you know it is not russia? how do you know it is not a state actor since usually say you don't know who gives you documents? >> we look very closely at our publications. we tend to come to a good understanding of them. we are not willing to go into details about our source because it might describe the sort of person they are, the jurisdiction they are in, which could put them at risk. but we have said clearly our sources are not a member of a russian state. even u.s. government is not

suggesting that our source is a member of russian state. what appears to be going on is there been observations of hacking of thousands of people or attempted hacking of thousands of people. that is quite normal in intelligence gathering activity before an election, presumably being carried out by many states. i would be surprised if that doesn't include russia. here are the publications of wikileaks. what there isn't is something in between the middle. that if an allegation there has been hacking here and publication over here, then these must be directly causally intentionally related. so far, there's no evidence. juan: julian, i would to turn to democratic congressman adam schiff speaking at a hearing at the house intelligence committee last month. july and after the

convention, the first stolen emails detrimental to hillary clinton appear on wikileaks. a hacker who goes by the mono her guccifer 2.0 claims responsibility for hacking dnc and giving the documents to wikileaks. the leading private cyber security firms, including crowd strike, and threat connect, review the evidence of the hack and conclude with high certainty that it was the work of apt 28 and apt 29 who are known to be russian intelligence services. u.s. intelligence community confirms document's were from them were acting as a friend. in late july, candidate trump praises wikileaks, says he loves them and openly appeals to the russians to hack his opponents enough, telling them they will be richly rewarded by the press. juan: that was congressman adam schiff. julian, i'm wondering if you can respond to some of the things he is saying in that statement?

>> mr. schiff is a democratic congressman who is trying to whip up a kind of new mccarthyism server in order to distract from the epic failure of hillary clinton. when they lost, of all people, to donald trump. should fall back and put things in context. the united states government, in 811950, has intervened elections. interfered in 81 elections. thatis not including coups of overthrowing the government. there's a long history of the united states doing this to places around the world in infamous ways, and most recently, alleged interference

in the election of israel. i think we should understand the united states is in a glass house when it comes to allegations of attempting to interfere with or influence election results. let's look at the real meat of the issue. russiait alleged that has interfered in the u.s. election process? while they say there's been a variety of hacks, that is quite normal to him intelligence governing process as far as can be determined, and a few extremely sexual websites such as d.c. leaks or guccifer 2.0 that no one paid attention to come and then our publications -- which people did pay attention to. what is in our publications? well, from our perspective, we published accurately and fairly

what hillary clinton says her positions were in her secret speeches to goldman sachs, and relations with the dnc, and exclude bernie sanders. at the heart of this issue is whether people were told the truth about hillary clinton and the dnc. if there had not been an ugly truth there, it would not invade any difference. it was an ugly truth. and we published accurately and fairly that ugly truth. our source wasn't from the russian state. if it had been from a state, would we have suppress that information before the election or would we have accurately and fairly published at? of course we would have published it. you: in relation to what said, we have had other guests on, for instance, scott horton who said, the u.s. has been involved in seeking to

destabilize governments and overthrow governments all over the world, but horton said there's a difference between what russia attempted to do and whether anyone in the trump administration colluded with russia or helped or cooperated or had conversations with the russians as they were seeking to destabilize u.s. elections. scott horton said that would be definitely a problematic issue for trump. i'm wondering your thoughts about that? >> i would agree that would be interesting and unusual. i don't think it is -- it is on, trumpg that early and people around 10 took a strongn toward russia, a position toward russia, and not a classic republican position. i think that is interesting. it is somewhat compatible with trump's statements going back a very long time. if thatuld be surprised

turns out to be significant. why do i say that? well, trump had very little business success in russia. he has not managed to build a hotel in russia. as far as can be determined, yes i got any good deals in russia. making statements during the campaign on the stage, hey, russia, if you have this emails, give them to the press, i will be pleased about it. see statements like that, this is not the sort of statements you make if you are -- if you are the havoc you medications channel and you are a ready engaged in an active conspiracy. for people like paul manafort, incapablemeone who is of engaging -- well, let's say dodgy activities. several long history of working

for various parties in different ways. have they asked for support through paul manafort? maybe. if you're looking at the top level involving trump, what i weakness in the ability to get anything concurrently done in russia. trump maynow, while or may not have investments in russia, it is very clear the oligarchs in russia have failed him out to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, if not more , in the united states when he was building buildings, having gone bankrupt many times, hard to get a line of credit in places like near democracy now!, trump soho, a major building project downtown manhattan. i would to turn back to adam schiff speaking last month. 8, roger stone, a

longtime trump political advisor and so proclaimed political dirty trickster, boasted in a speech he is communicated with assange and that more documents would be coming, including an october surprise. he also communicates with the russian cut out guccifer 2 an officer breitbart piece -- offers a breitbart piece. in august, stone do something truly remarkable. when you predict that john podesta'sd person you mouse will published. trust me, he said, he will soon be podesta's time in the barrel #crooked hillary. he follows repressions. i total confidence that wikileaks and my euro julian assange will educate the american people soon, he says #lockherup. halo coming. two days later, it does. wikileaks releases is first

batch of you mouse. it will continue on a daily basis up until election. amy: this is roger stone speaking on august 8. [indiscernible] >> it can be a number of things. i actually have comedic it would assange -- communicated with assange. i think the next pertain to the clinton foundation, but there is no telling what the october surprise may be. amy: that was roger stone speaking august 8 in broward county, florida. if you could respond to the substance of what they're saying, julian, and explain what is your relationship with roger stone. >> i don't want to be an apologist for these people, but party politics in the united states is something that everyone has to get away from.

glared ision of two by different you leads been sucked up all of the political energy in the country. while we could talk later about what has happened to the trump administration and the fascinating process we have been saying about how many days does it take for the security sector to digest the president, something like 75, seems to be the answer. ok, roger stone -- i've never communicated with the guy and he is never communicated with me. other than recently, then just say, what are you doing? saying, we have communicated, please explain. brilliantlyy inserted himself into this equation. now remember, stone was pushed out in 2015 from the trump campaign.

when wikileaks was engaged in its publications exposing interference in the primary process at the dnc, that was the biggest staying on the political radar for that time period. stone having nowhere to be, decided to suggest he has communications with us. let's look at his predictions. he predicted that our publications were going to be out in the clinton foundation. he was wrong. all of his other predictions, where they accurate, statements we made them public. we said we had information about hillary clinton we were going to publish. when you hear adam schiff saying, roger stone said that wikileaks publications are coming, we were saying -- i was saying on tv interviews that we had publications that were coming that were about hillary clinton.

stone predicted we're going to publish an october 4. we did not publish on october 4, that was our 10 year anniversary. literally, there is no prediction he has made in relation to us that have come true that have not been public. you know, you have to admire the chutzpah of power -- of how he desiresed on democratic to see a connection and has exploited that in order to sell these books and gain promise. it is impressive he is laid out a piece of bait that he understands the democratically aligned press will leap forward and put that book and them out. him amy: we are going to get a break and come back to this conversation. julian assange speaking to us from inside the ecuadorian embassy in london where he has

been holed up for almost five years. we will be back with julian and a moment. -- in a moment. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. wikileaks has published what it says is the largest leak of secret cia documents in history. the thousands of documents dubbed false seven describes cia tools to mobile of hacking into both apple and android cellphones the hacking into entire phones the cia is then reportedly able to ice has included messenger programs such as signal, telegram, and whatsapp.

although contrary to many news reports from the documents do not show the cia has developed tools to hack these encrypted services themselves. the documents also outline a cia and british intelligence program called weeping angel through which the spy agency can hack into a samsung smart television and turn it into a surveillance device that records audio conversations, even when it appears to be off. amy: to talk more, we're going back to the ecuadorian embassy in london where we're joined by julian assange, the founder of wikileaks. talk about the significance of this latest release of documents , julian, that wikileaks has engaged in. >> volt 7 is a largest intelligence leak in history. 1% ofhed so far less than that material. so far, the publications we have published revealed the central intelligence agency has decided to create in the last 10 years

its own captive version of the national security agency. not specialized in bulk interception, but specialized in semiautomated hacking processes. people's computer systems, telephones, tvs, and have those then report back to cia listening post that collect that information. an information can be pushed by using these mechanisms on to those telephone, computers, etc., etc., for example, plant information that could implicate someone falsely or perhaps even truly in a crime. so i think it is -- it's significant that as the central intelligence agency gained

budgetary and political preeminence over national security agency, which used to have a bigger budget. in post-9/11 environment, the cam budget -- cia budget has increased. that, increased political power, increased budgetary spent comes from, it has created its own effective air force using drones and its own large hacker squad. so it is able to do things internally that it previously would have to go out for others to do. the central intelligence agency, like all institutions, is maximizing its institutional power. it is slowly succeeding compared to other institutions. of the various disclosures about national security agency, most importantly the edward snowden disclosures of 2013, industry

has responded to markets and various places in various engineers ideologically also invested in this, introducing encryption. , more types signal of encrypted email. the central intelligence agencies hacking approach does not target the intermediaries like the national security agency does for the bulk intercepts. instead, it targets the endpoints. then it does not need to worry about encryption. for example, if you and i, amy, are communicating using, say, signal on a smart phone, apple or android, but the signal encryption protocol is quite good. it cannot be decrypted by an onermediary, bulk spying commit cushions traffic going across the atlantic.

like the national security agency. of if you there -- if either have our phones hacked, it means that encryption does not matter. information is gathered either before it is encrypted or after it is decrypted. juan: in terms of the material you're overly so far, you did redact any of the computer codes you got access to and offered to have companies that may be affected by this, tech companies, to provide them the codes so they could fix any vulnerabilities. have any companies taken you up on the offer? >> yes, that is a very interesting process. and we knew it would be. publicly.is offer and we also wrote to a number of large companies such as apple soft, microsoft, google, mozilla , etc..

the european cup at his responded almost immediately. some even approached us. a couple of u.s. companies such respondeda immediately. also, cisco. google, apple, and microsoft talked eight or nine days, depending on the company -- took eight or nine days, depending on the company, to respond. that means all of the users were at risk in those eight or nine days. what was happening? we here, we're not sure it was true for all of the companies, from one of the companies, what was happening is they were engaging the lawyers, worried about politics, etc., etc. my guess is on the legal front, a type of collaboration material classified could be argued to be conspiracy to commit espionage. of course, that is not actually

practically possible in the us, or politically possible. and then these copies of individuals in them who have security in them because they work on classified projects for the government. particularly the security division of apple, google, microsoft, etc., have people with security clearances in them and might lose their clearance if they are engaged in working on information that is being distributed not through a formal process. see in all of those big tree taking eight or nine days as some kind of collaboration, either directly with each other or through a third party, say, like the department of justice, to understand what role they are going to play. the role they ended up playing is saying, no, we don't agree to fix anything we had asked for within 90 days. no, we don't agree to say any

fix came from you. this is our requirement. instead, you can just throw something at our regular security reporting mechanism. what is going on there? well, no record of collaboration in a formal sense or in a political sense that could be used to make political problems for those companies in terms of their contracts for the united states government, or potentially introduce problems in relation to espionage act or security clearance. that is my supposition. we don't know that is true for sure. we know some of it is true for at least one of these companies. and looking at the timing, it is very unusual that google, microsoft, and apple all wrote back to us on the eighth or ninth day. whereas the other companies

wrote back immediately or at various times. amy: jillion, we have to go to break again. we're coming back to this conversation. julian assange, founder and editor-in-chief of wikileaks pickin speaking to us from lond. we will be back in a moment. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. juan: in october, the intercept publishedg a conversationl between glenn greenwald and naomi klein about wikileaks plus decision to disclose thousands of john podesta's personal team else. this is part of what naomi klein said. >> i would add it is not just that they did not curate it and dump it all, they are dumping they are doling out the dumps. right? to maximize, clearly to maximize

damage. so they're not just saying, hey, information was to be free, here is everything we have. journalists, have a field day going through it. they are very clearly looking for maximum media attention. you can tell it just by looking ,t the wikileaks twitter feed you know, timing it right before the debate. have written about how dangerous it is for media organizations to be taking such a highly political approach to this election because they so clearly do not want trump to get elected, so they are engaging in what you described as journalistic fraud. i agree with you. but we have to acknowledge how political wikileaks and julian are being your. assange, your response to some of her remarks? >> well, i think it is a bit rich for naomi klein, who is a very wealthy woman, sitting up

there in canada, to be accusing a political prisoner who has been detained for the last seven years without charge in violation of two u.n. rulings without getting her facts straight. what is wikileaks to do? sit on and suppress evidence of interference in the dnc process? the dnc toafter publish the information? for thisd be unethical organization. i would argue it is unethical for any media. we have a commitment to the public that we will not suppress information like that, and we have a commitment to sources who come forward taking risk to give us information that we will publish it in a timely fashion once we have verified that it is completely accurate. now, do we wish that we had more money and could process information faster?

of course we do. but we did manage to get that publication out the four the dnc, and i think that was very important -- before the dnc, and i think that was for imports of the people involved in the process could understand who it was that they were choosing to go for. this beer realistic. a particular issue, a very important issue, and i agree it is an important issue, which is climate change. she was willing to attack anyone in her campaign to make sure hillary clinton was elected. because she perceived hillary clinton would do better on climate change. i agree it is a very serious issue. but in relation to be helix, we are an organization that has a commitment to the public to publish information, not suppress it. and to make sure as many people read it as possible. weit true that the way

staged our publishing process increased being gauge meant of people in reading our material? of course it is. did we do good job in getting people, enticing people to read and report on our material? yes, we did. and we will do that for any source, any whistleblower that comes to us and gives us information. we will try and maximize the that come as ars result of the risks those people take. that is our promise to the readers, and 2 -- amy: early in the campaign, naomi did write an article that clearly supporting bernie sanders, running -- hillary clinton cannot be trusted,. we're also joined by allan nairn . if you can weigh in this

discussion right now as we talked to julian assange in the ecuadorian embassy? >> first, i've a brief question for julian assange. said you didyou not get the leaks directly from a state. you said you know you did not get the leaks directly from a state. do you know that russia did not give you the leaks through an intermediary? >> i'm not going to be playing 20 questions on our sources. i'm sure you understand allan, we're not going to be in scribing circles around who our sources are, how we communicate with them, any properties that might be used to arrest them or criticize them in some future process. >> so it is understand as comey said, russia gave you the leaks through an intermediary. >> i'm not going to comment.

>> my view of this is that during the campaign, wikileaks often suggested that trump would clinton.angerous than >> no, we didn't. >> i think you did. >> no, we didn't. >> i think that concept is wildly, gruesomely mistaken. there was the argument -- >> that is fine free to say that, but you should understand that, no, we didn't. i was asked that question directly on democracy now! at the time of what my position was , asked which one i preferred. the responses, being asked this question is being asked, do i prefer color or gonorrhea. >> the idea -- >> [indiscernible] you understand why it is occurring. the democratic party had -- i

think -- the democratic party had a moment for very important internal reform after its epic loss to donald trump. very disliked candidate as first the polling is concerned. so the democratic party had an epic loss. who was responsible for that epic loss? the democratic party was in its various structures, is institutions -- >> the democratic party -- >> [indiscernible] >> if i may -- >> telling the public the truth. and theyke the truth absorb it and they think about it and they do they want with it. the reality is, the american people so disliked what was being offered to them by the democratic party, that they decided a preferred to blow it all up rather than have hillary clinton. they decided to throw the trump

grenade. >> i agree with that. however, i would note the trump campaign thought wikileaks was on their side. now, the idea that mr. assange just suggested that trump and clinton were equally dangerous, two different deadly diseases, i think is wildly and gruesomely mistaken. fenton represented a criminal establishment. but trump and the people he brought in with them make it worse. make it even more criminal. this idea that it was just a choice between the lesser of two evils. well, and politics, in life, you fight like hell to have good choices, have better choices -- in this case, sanders was a better alternative. but once that is no longer possible, of course you choose the lesser evil. what do you want, more evil, more killing, more pollution, more abuse of immigrants, more racism, more impunity for corporations, more aid to death

squads, more spending for the military? all of that is what you get with trump. in distinction to the other bad things you would have gotten with clinton. of clinton -- i'm's are, the victory of trump was not equally as bad as it would've been if clinton had lost. it is a catastrophe. it is utter catastrophe. those who are poorest, those who are already most vulnerable, are the ones are suffering most as a result. we ate seen nothing yet. started.ust getting starr and with gorsuch coming on supreme court and the possibility of the legislative filibuster will be abolished as well as the supreme court filibuster -- if that will give trump and the radical republican right, who now control the congress, essentially absolute power. the only thing standing in their way will be some federal judges,

which means within the system, there will be no blocking power. there will be nothing to stop them. in that case, the only way to stop them will be from outside the federal system, which means in the streets or from the systems of the states and localities. we are in the midst of a right-wing revolution. i agree a lot of this discussion isut russia and leaks misguided a lot of it, and it is diverting attention from two main facts. one, we're in the midst of a right-wing revolution that must be stopped and reversed. two, the democratic establishment discredited themselves and they have to be removed and replaced by the democratic race. juan: julian, your response? i would like to also come if you can, talk about -- you have mentioned it met numerous times, the existence of the deep state and what the relationship with the deep state is to your perspective about what is going on right now in the united states? recently, andtil

i guess we still have to see how it goes, i have been delighted by the conflict that has been occurring between the incoming administration and between the security services. why is that? because it has shed light on both. it is resulting in the courts throwing nooses around the power of the presidency and tying them down. i mean, that is something i predicted would happen and it is happening very rapidly. for party politics in the united states is the democrats have been in collapse at theost eight years council level, at the state level, and at the national level. so the election of donald trump, while he is an unusual person psychologically and hillary clinton was a particularly bad candidate, is actually part of

something that is much bigger. and it is very interesting to think of what that is because any solution in terms of party politics has to understand why it is the democratic machinery has seemingly been in collapse over the last eight years. and you can perhaps say it is to do with gross economic factors, perhaps the professionalization of the democratic past where you have the revolving door of contractors. so you can see this in our dnc leaks that you have educated, professional as democrats who are listed working the class base and they are involved in revolving door system to becoming lobbyists, going back into the dnc, etc. if you read the emails we published about john podesta

come you can see this inot simply something that happened. this is an expectation within that community. anyone who doesn't engage in that expectation, anyone who doesn't go into private industry and get a $400,000 a year consulting contract as a local asan agent, is viewed to be a fool. you cannot keep up that game for so long. it starts to turn people off any start to lose the base, and that is what happened in this particular run. but the -- amy: let me get allan's -- . allan strongly not ianet swept up into -- is attempt by the democratic party in this particular case, but by the teedo parties, the polarized the population into party politics. there are lots of interesting

things that can come out of the trump administration. we're seeing great horse will stop -- we are seeing great horse. we're seeing the conflict with the surities of the deep state. i have been writing -- i've been writing about theeep state for decades, using that word. turkish academics have been writing about the equivalent in --key, some hungarians finally, this word is something in u.s. politics. it is not a new concept. it is essentially the military-industrial complex plus lobbyists, plus contractors, plus people on the senate intelligence community, etc. -- amy: we just have 30 seconds. to give you final, it. >> the conflict between trump and the intelligence deep state

is a spat, not a struggle. trump has insulted them. ps disregard the -- he has disrespected them, so they are unhappy. trump with them to change their tactics to become more crude and even more violent. once they worked together on a couple of new wars, they will get along just fine. amy: we're going to leave it there. i want to thank you for joining us, allan nairn, and julian. in our last 10 seconds, you're coming up on five years in the embassy. how are you doing in the ecuadorian embassy in london? >> well, last year i won an epic victory against the u.k. government and the swedish government at the u.n., formal ruling, repeated in november, those governments still have to obey the u.n. i should be freed in, sated, according to the u.n. julian assange of wikileaks. david.irthday to

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