- [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by klru's producers circle. ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. - i'm evan smith, he's an actor, author and grammy nominated punk rock icon who co-founded the legendary los angeles band, x 40 years ago, and has made 10 solo records, most recently, the westerner. he's john doe, this is overheard. (crowd applauding) let's be honest, is this about your ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa and elsewhere? you could say that he'd made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. you saw a problem and over time took it on and let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. are you gonna run to president?

i just got an f from you, actually. this is overheard. (applauding) john doe, welcome. - thank you. - nice to see you. - good to be here. - how is it that x is 40 years old as a band? we must be getting old. it's hard to imagine. - it's magical. - [evan] is it magical? - no. (laughing) it's astounding. - everything hurts, but it's still astounding, yeah. - i'm really lucky. less than you would think in the hurting part. - not a lot of bands, good bands and bad bands make it this long, right? happens to be a good band, a great band that made it this long. - you know, i appreciate that. it's just good fortune, and i think we still have some ambition. - [evan] still playing. - it's what we do. - it's what we do. i saw cheap trick and it's like, it's kind of like seeing old blues guys. i saw john lee hooker and lightning hopkins, i saw those guys play and it is, you see cheap trick playing, it's like, yeah, you look like an old blues guy now.

(chuckling) - well, the nice thing about it is it's not the name, but a whole bunch of different people who you don't recognize, it's mostly the band that we knew, right? - well, x is, for sure. and same with cheap trick. - yeah, which is a good thing. 1977 is when the band came together, and you actually came from somewhere else to get to los angeles, you're from illinois. - yep. well, i was born in illinois and then my dad was a librarian and he got better and better jobs. - [evan] so he traveled around. - he went to tennessee, and then we went to wisconsin, which was where they were from, and then ended up in baltimore. and he was doing state libraries and then eventually he went to new york. he went to new york. ran brooklyn public libraries and when he left and i finished high school, finished college. - you went to college back at the east coast? - in baltimore, yeah. antioch college, writing. - and then eventually made it out to la. now, you have said, i was born in 1977 when i got out to los angeles. - john doe. - it was consequential for you, john doe, but also it was a important thing for you personally

as the development of who you became to be out there. - absolutely. and i was drawn there by all the writers and film stuff. all the underbelly of nathaniel west and all the underbelly of nathaniel west and what los angeles represented. - at that time. - well, in the past, from raymond chandler, and - well, in the past, from raymond chandler, and charles bukowski, and all those charles bukowski, and all those los angeles wasn't the sunny eagles. sunny eagles. - [evan] beach boys, right? - nothing to do with that, it was all the dark side and (chuckling) we found it. - well, for a lot of people, at that moment who did what you came to do pretty quickly, the choice was not la but it was new york. - [john] right. so, distinguish between the two for me. why did you not make your way to new york, but instead made your way to la, what was it? (sighing) you made the affirmative case for la. was it something about new york you didn't like? - the weather. - it was just a weather issue? - totally.

- good, i like the fact that it was mundane. - yeah. - that's good. - i'm very simple in many ways. no, i was just sick of the east coast. from second grade through college i lived in baltimore. and it's like they're ghosts. - [evan] gets old after a while. - and it's all closed in, and it's all. - and it's all closed in, and it's all. the west is open and the east is closed. the west is open and the east is closed. i was so sick and tired of people saying, oh, being a musician, that's really hard. you can't do that, and oh, you can't do that. and you can't do that and it's like. no. - now you've just guaranteed i am gonna do it, right? - or i want a place to try and also - or i want a place to try and also my folks were living in new york, so i had a free place to stay. - if you wanted to visit. - yeah, so i saw the talking heads, and i saw the heartbreakers, at cbgb's and max's and it was really clear that all that was pretty well developed. i saw patti smith at saint mark's and

stuff like, that, so it's like i don't want to try to wedge my way into someplace that i don't really like. - right, but let's not, what a great time to see music there. - oh hell yeah. - and also out on the west coast. the bands you're naming, the moment that you're talking about. - absolutely. - what a wonderful time. you went out to la with this express idea of making music, of being in a band or doing something like that. - yeah, i guess. - yeah, i guess. a friend of mine and i, we sold a couple of songs to some guy that immediately disappeared. we never got paid and the songs never were published. we thought, oh we can be songwriters. - otherwise perfect. - we can be songwriters. and all we need to do is sell a couple of songs. and then, and then, i think a lot of people in punk rock were misfits in the other bands. - were misfits in the other bands. - in the other bands that they tried to play in. - right, and they were the ones who stood out. - what do you want to play that for, and that's weird, and no we don't want to do that velvet underground song in this band.

oh, what do you want to know. and then suddenly you're surrounded by a bunch of other people that had that same experience. - [evan] right, we're all in the club. - or were called fags or something. and it's like no, i get it. - now, x is talked about as a punk rock band and i talk about you as a punk rock guy. do you think about punk rock today the way you thought about it back then? what is punk rock as you think back on those times? - freedom. - what does it mean, freedom? - yeah. - right. - it's do it yourself. - not coloring within the lines. - yeah. and it still is. nowadays it's like a bonified sub-culture. - does it exist in music today? - sure. oh, absolutely. - give me an example of a band that's a punk rock band. - skating polly. - okay, this is not a band i'm aware of, but i'll go back and. - they opened for us last holiday season. - it's not the case that punk rock has been absorbed into other genres, or that the soundtrack of the rebellion now hip-hop, say. - right.

i think that it's young people going to a place where there's eight bands and the admission is 10 bucks. - well there are still places like that. - absolutely. - absolutely. in new york and london and la and san francisco, the original bands were very eclectic. the clash didn't sound like x-ray specs and the jam didn't sound like somebody else. blondie didn't sound like talking heads or ramones didn't sound. x didn't sound like the germs or x didn't sound like the germs or et cetera, et cetera. - and by the way, all these years later, if you hear a song by the jam or you hear a song by the clash, on the radio or on one of the streaming services, you know instantly that it's the jam or the clash. - [john] yeah. - right? - if you have some musical history. - if you have any history with those bands. - which a lot of people have been denied, unfortunately. - well, that's one of the things about this, the world has changed, the music world has changed. music publishing has changed, the process of putting out records has changed, touring has changed. in some ways today, trying to make that rebellion or that 10 dollars for eight bands, whatever

in the kind of corporate music world of today is a little harder. - right, but see i take my hat off to green day because they did bring it to the audience that really needed it. which were the disaffected teenagers. the ramones and us were playing to art people and grownups, like 20-somethings and 30-somethings. we couldn't get to the kids at hollywood high. - you don't begrudge green day or bands like green day. - hell no. - their success in all this. yeah, success is not bad. - i think billy joe's a really good songwriter. - yeah, well in fact he did the forward to the book that you did last year. - right, true. - that is called under the big black sun, it's an exploration of the scene that you were in back at the time and you and exene, but also mike watt who was in the minutemen and later in firehose and charlotte caffey and jane wiedlin from the go-gos and dave alvin are all contributing to this, talking about their piece of that time. - right. - right. - right. - he is the logical heir to that, you would say.

- yes, yeah. i mean, that east bay punk rock scene with lookout records and all that, they took a lot from the la sound. they took a lot from the la sound. and we're pragmatic, we want to appeal to other people. a lot more people know who green day is than know about the la punk rock scene. we did the book in that way because there's all these different stories and everybody has their own truth and even though i may really support and appreciate the fact that women were equal parts in the punk rock world. - for instance. - i can appreciate that. exene and i were partners, we were equal partners. i can't tell the story from that perspective. - well, in fact not everybody has the same perspective on it. i got the opportunity to interview kim gordon some time ago. kim gordon's version of where women fit into that conversation was not necessarily the same as somebody else's, right? - right. - she saw this through a different lens, and i suspect that the people in this book all had their own, it's not exactly rashamon, but they all

have their own version of the story. take it together it's actually a pretty good snapshot. - i'm acting as kind of the narrator, i'll have a chapter in the beginning, the middle some, and then i'm doing all these inter-stitial pieces so that i'm commenting on what it was like for us to experience all these kids from east la showing up at our shows, like what, where. there are all these like beautiful brown skinned kids. - where'd they come from? - yeah. and then suddenly oh, there's bands that go along with that. there's the brat, and there's, so. theresa from the brat wrote a chapter with tom, my co-author and my co-author and i'm like ken burns of the punk rock scene. - oh listen, being the punk rock ken burns is a brand, man. i love that. well, the part i love about this the best is it was the book was the audio version of the book was nominated for a grammy. - i know, who would have thunk it. - so it was your book, the elvis costello memoir, patti smith and you all lost at the grammys. - to carol burnett.

- to carol burnett. (laughing) - you know. - you know. - kind of a punk rock icon of her own, right? - in a way, you know. - but how wonderful that it was appreciated for what it was, that it was this distinct. - yeah, there was a hell of a lot of other books that, even within our wheelhouse that chrissie hynde and kim gordon. - [evan] well, the chrissie hynde book's really good, that's right, yeah. - yeah, there's a lot that didn't make the cut. yeah, who'd have thunk that. - who would imagine. (chuckling) very quickly, the origin story for x. you and billy zoom were the people who started this band, exene was your girlfriend at the time? - no, just someone i-- - or a friend. - friend, yeah. i met her at this writing workshop, called the venice poetry workshop. still going on. - so she was more of a poet than a band member. - yeah, she was a writer, she didn't know what she was. none of us knew what we were. she'd knew she wanted to get out of tallahassee, florida, that's what she knew. (chuckling) - how'd she get connected with the band, then? - she had a song called, she had written a poem and had made it into a song called,

i'm coming over. and it was just, i'm coming over, i'm coming over, so move over. and i said, well i played along with the way she sang, and it was clear what kind of chords should go or what notes should go with that. or what notes should go with that. and i said, well do you think i could do this in my band? and she said, no. and she said, no. this is like the one thing that i have that is of value. - it's mine. - that's the one thing. if this is gonna be sung, i'll do it. and then, and then, it just developed organically. - as simple as that. - yeah. - yeah. a number of records over the years, i was mentioning this to you before we came out here, that my way into x was a record that come out about 10 year later, so 30 years ago, called see how we are. and what i think is one of the all-time great rock and roll songs, fourth of july, which i feel like every fourth of july i find a reason to put on. that was actually 10 years after the band started, i went back at that point then

and listened to los angeles and listened to wild gift, both of which ended up on the rolling stone list a couple years ago of the 500 best records of all time, pretty good to be in that band, i know, right? you got two records on that list. and at the time, i don't know that i thought of see how we are or for that matter any of those other records or those songs as punk rock as you thought of punk rock. maybe everybody's definition of punk rock is just different. i like how you said it, that it's not so much a style of music as it is a sub-culture. - yeah. - right? it feels like pretty straight forward rock and roll to me. - well, at the time there was a line that was drawn, because it needed to be. this is now and that was then. and rather than be considered like new wave, which was sort of the nice way not to get kicked out of the party. i think claude bessy in that decline of western civilization said that's the way. stay at the party and keep doing cocaine. - talking heads were probably new wave more than punk rock. - i guess, but at any rate, so

- i guess, but at any rate, so we wanted to be considered that. rather than associate with the past, even though we had roots in the past. i, as a songwriter and singer and player i, as a songwriter and singer and player made myself forget a lot of those things. it's like you hear painters talk about going to school and learning all the techniques that they need to learn to paint, and then their teachers say, now forget everything. and it's like, what? but you do have to say, okay, i'm moving forward. but you do have to say, okay, i'm moving forward. i'm not gonna look back right now. it's already in your dna. - but the successful people in your business and in other businesses can kind of tack to the moment, and so whatever x was in the early days, come all the way forward now as a solo artist with this record, the westerner, but other solo records you've done over the years. it's a very different sound, it's a much more stripped down sound. it sounds very different from x, and the knitters records, the side project you did, you and exene, dave alvin.

straight rock-a-billy, right? - right. - i think the first time i listened to the first of the two knitters records, which came out in 1985, but would have been a couple years later. i didn't know that it was you all. somebody said, you need to listen to this record. (laughing) and so i put on, this is a great record. this is actually the people from x, you have to be kidding me. - yeah, it was our love letter to sun records. for sure, and all that stuff. but going back to the punk rock thing. it became a little more codified, it became a little more like a sound and a thing and you could paint a picture of the person that played it and the way they danced and all that kind of stuff and so then it became a little less, but if you think about the beginnings of the hardcore scene, which is kind of where our book ends. that also was pretty eclectic. the meat puppets and black flag. - henry rollins has a chapter (mumbling). - and the minute men, and all these people. they were pretty different, too. but it's okay. - i think about you at that time,

and i now have to think about you as an actor at that time as well, because i was familiar with your. at that time as well, because i was familiar with your. you were on roswell, the television series. - yes. - some years ago, 15 years ago. 'course, i remember one day walking past tv, boogie nights is on, one of the all-time great movies. and there you are, you played julianne moore's character's ex-husband or estranged husband. you were in a custody deal. - yeah, mhm. - i don't know that i was fully aware until much later that you've been in like 50 or 60 films and tv shows and it goes all the way back to salvadore, right. the first thing you did was for oliver stone, and that would have been around '85-'86. - actually the first thing was with allison anders. - first thing was an allison anders movie. talk about that. - called border radio, there were a bunch of other la musicians who were part of it. we had no idea what we were, well they sort of had an idea what they were doing. they had been to ucla, and allison and kurt voss and dean lent were kind of all three runninthe camera and directing and writing and everything like that.

and she would say, okay we're gonna do this thing. bring the blue flannel shirt that you were wearing. i look in my closet, there's like three or four blue flannel shirts. - which one, right. - i had no idea, i picked up the one, brought it to the thing, did the thing. and then they cut this stuff together and i walk out of one door with one blue flannel shirt, and walk into the other. walk into the phone booth with a completely different blue flannel shirt on. - what interested you about acting as opposed to music? as opposed to music? - i think it was just a little more internal, - i think it was just a little more internal, a little more. a little more. i don't know, it's like an opportunity. and allison's cool. - right. - and then, oh i get to hang out with james woods. and he's really smart and that's fun. and he's really smart and that's fun. oh, i get paid and. well, sure i guess, yeah. nowadays, when i get the opportunity to do it. nowadays, when i get the opportunity to do it.

it's the research and trying to find out what the person should think and i got to play what the person should think and i got to play ap carter in ap carter in this allison anders, again, she did a thing this allison anders, again, she did a thing about june carter. - right, years later. right, yeah. - and jewel was playing june carter and i got to play ap carter, who was the godfather of country music. and reading all of the stuff on him, that was really the juiciest and most fun part. doing the stuff, you just have to kind of wade in, and-- - well like you go on law and order for an episode. that's like work for hire, right? - that was totally fun. the easiest character choices. what do i do? hmm, be a jerk. what do i do, hmm. be self-absorbed. what do i do, you know. (chuckling) it was all laid out, 'cause i was playing this rock star who was kind of the whitesnake, is that who is?

- it was like a heavy metal or hair metal kind of. - yeah, where the tragedy in rhode island, the place caught on fire, that's what it was based on. - but so that's something you're continuing to do after all this time, that's fun? - [john] sure. - but i guess the thing that you're doing primarily right now is you're, this record that has just come out, you're about to go on a tour for a couple weeks. is this as much fun as it used to be to go on the road? i imagine after you get to be a certain age, you've done it for a long time, it's probably not as much fun as it was, or maybe it's fun in a different way. - it's very simple. - it's very simple. all you gotta do is show up and look good and not fall off stage. and not fall off stage. that's the simplest way. it is a little bit of extended adolescence, in that way. - could you make any money touring or being in the music business today? i guess x was successful, but not super successful back in the day, but as a solo artist today, given the changes to the business that we've alluded to, is this really something that is a living

that you can make? - oh, absolutely. that's how most people make their money. - is the touring? - is touring. yeah, absolutely. - might have been once upon a time that the record was where you made the money, now it's. - we never really did. - we never really did. we always made decent money, we always paid ourselves and that was part of the deal. we didn't sleep on floors, we had hotels. - yeah. - yeah. - the story of those days of musicians sleeping on floors, that's not you. - those were black flag and the sst bands, really opened it up, 'cause they were willing to sleep on people's floors and stuff like that. nowadays, nowadays, it's rewarding because you have to dig a little deeper. it's rewarding because you have to dig a little deeper. with x, we're reaching people who are 15 or 60, and to see a young woman looking at exene thinking, she's my role model, gives me a really warm spot in my heart. - what are the crowds like now? - just like that, yeah. - 15 to 60? - yeah. - yeah.

even older than 60. (chuckling) - well, right. are these people who were familiar with x were fans of x and have migrated now over to you as a solo artist or are these people who were discovering you new? and maybe you're gonna back-fill it. - both. both new and old. it's like you were saying. you discover music at a time when it's important to you. or when you're supposed to. you find it at the time you need it, in a kind of woo-woo way. in a kind of woo-woo way. there's not so many 15 year olds that come to see me (chuckling) as a solo artist, which is rewarding because it's, you gotta dig deep. especially if you're like, you and a guitar. you have to embrace that vulnerability and if you don't, then you're lost. 'cause then you're trying to do a song and dance and be all. - nah, just be yourself. - groovy. - groovy. i fall into that. where you think, oh i've played too many slow songs,

what should i do? thinking, oh my god, no thinking. - you've been in california, we have a couple minutes left. you've been in california for 40 years, and you've just now made the decision to move to austin, texas. (chuckling) why on earth would you do that? why on earth would you do that? - for the weather. (laughing) - we're back to where we started, is that it? i want the weather to be slightly less good, so i'm gonna move away from california. no seriously, what's the motivation? this is a town that's known people like you over the years. - yeah. - yeah. i've loved austin since i saw the big boys. the first time i saw the big boys, i thought, this place is cool. - right, it's a little bit more expensive to live here since then, it's a little harder to get around. - yes. - yes. - it's not exactly the same place. - i can buy a house here, i could never buy a house in the bay area. - well, that's probably right. - it's very true. - bay area's a little expensive. - i'm practical in that way. and i'm into adventures. i think as you get older, if you expand,

you're gonna do good things. and as you get older, if you start contracting, you go, oh i can't do that. oh no, i can't do that. oh no, i can't do that. as soon as you start saying i can't do that, you're gonna contract and you will cripple yourself and you will do ever less and then it's like, oh, i don't know if i should go out of the house because. oh, i don't know if i should go out of the house because. people who get bitter and angry and stuff. - but of course i'm thinking just a (mumbling). given who you are and what you do, and the fact that you show no sign of slowing down, you're gonna continue to do this for as long as you can. this is a pretty good place to do that. if you move into that phase of your life. - yeah. - maybe more, so, i assume the bay area's a good place to be creative and to be out making music and making art or whatever else. is this is a pretty good place to do it and there's already a support system for that here. long tradition. - as a matter of fact, within the week that - as a matter of fact, within the week that the cat got out of the bag. charlie sexton called me and devy garza called me and, hey man, what are you doing this thing? you want to do this thing with me?

- everybody wants a piece of you already. - it's not even wants a piece, those guys are friends of mine. it's nice to be welcomed ande, and they're inclusive, and it's nice to be welcomed and i'm never the kind that's gonna be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond. i'm just gonna be, and if there's opportunities, then right on, yeah. this is a good place for that. - this would be a place for that. anything else you got coming up next, what's after this? what's after this? - more touring, x is having its 40th anniversary. - there will be a series of shows? - yeah, we have 60 shows booked already. - 60 shows? - that's not so much. - oh man. - that's not like buddy, you know. - i'm just exhausted saying it. - it's not like buddy guy. - yeah, right. - yeah, right. - yeah, do that. - and you go back and play all the old stuff, but probly have some new stuff to play too? - the way x plays now is more like a concert, because we have another player, we're playing songs we never played. we go some real deep cuts, like, i must not think bad thoughts, which is a particularly poignant song at this juncture. which is a particularly poignant song at this juncture.

we still play punk rock, that's our meat and potatoes, but dj's playing vibes on several songs, billy plays sax on a few songs. - so it's a little bit different. - it's a concert. - yeah. - so we start off a kind of rockabilly, boom boom boom, punch punch punch. everybody's going yeah, i love it. we get into some deeper cuts where we play come back to me, which is a really sad song with billy playing saxophone, and dj playing vibes and then we bring it home, man. and then we bring it home, man. play los angeles, and yeah it's good. - well, i can't wait to come see that, it'll be fun. - we have an exhibit at the grammy museum in los angeles. that's supposed to be coming up in july, i think. - we'll encourage people to go to that, that's good. - yeah, so. - alright john doe, well welcome to austin and thank you for being here today and good luck with everything you're doing. - you've been very generous. - alright, good. john doe, thank you very much. (audience cheering) we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to interviews, q&a's with our audience and guests and an archive of past episodes. - it's kind of like lowriders or people that are into parrots or people that are into parrots or s&m, you know like real sub-culture stuff. or s&m, you know like real sub-culture stuff. and i think that's a legit place for punk rock to be. and i think that's a legit place for punk rock to be. - [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by klru's producers circle. ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. (atmospheric instrumental music) (atmospheric instrumental music)