>> hinojosa: how far would you go to save the planet? my guest today didn't use motorized transportation of any kind for 22 years. and for 17 years, he didn't speak. planetwalk founder and environmental crusader john francis. i'm maria hinojosa. this is one on one. john francis, welcome to our program. >> thank you, maria. >> hinojosa: good to have you here. so you are the author of the book planetwalker: 17 years of silence, 22 years of walking. >> yes, i am. >> hinojosa: and so it really was. people, i'm sure they're like, "really? he stopped talking for 17 years?" >> right, i did, actually. >> hinojosa: and you walked for

22. >> for 22 years, without motorized vehicles, yeah. >> hinojosa: and throughout all of that, an essential part is your friend here, the banjo. >> my friend the banjo. >> hinojosa: does banjo have a name? >> well, it's american princess. american princess. it's an old banjo. it's over 100 years old, and was built in philadelphia. >> hinojosa: so the banjo became a central part of you as a persona in these years where you were walking and you were not talking. >> yeah, it did. >> hinojosa: but let's go back for... and you play it normally. >> i do, all the time. so you might hear it as we're talking. >> hinojosa: it's an extension of... >> yeah, it is. >> hinojosa: but let's talk about how it all started. it started when... it was 1971. >> 1971, in california. an oil spill happens in january, near the golden gate bridge. i hear about it on the radio.

and we're living up in point reyes, 40 miles away, north. and we drive in, my girlfriend and i, to see the oil spill. but fortunately we can't see it because of the fog. that's probably why the accident occurred. but what we can do is we can smell it. and it is... i mean, it's a horrific smell. >> hinojosa: totally toxic. >> totally toxic, 10,000 gas stations crammed together. and... >> hinojosa: suffocating. >> suffocating, reminding me so much of being in the back seat of a hot summer car with two relatives, two of my philadelphia relatives, with the windows rolled up, and going over potholes, and me as a little boy, you know, just not enjoying that ride at all, getting a little carsick. >> hinojosa: well, there might be a lot of people who say, look, they were very upset when the exxon valdez oil spill happened, they've seen other oil spills, they may even remember this 1971 oil spill. but there might be a lot of

people who say, "okay, but i don't know about how you see an oil spill and you make the connection to then stop using all motorized transport. it was a process, but what was the moment when you just said, "that's it, i'm really not going to get into a car," et cetera? >> well, you know, we returned to our home after we saw the spill, you know, wanted to do something. i said to my girlfriend, "we should not ride in cars." but she kind of looked at me and said, "we need lots of money to do something like that." and i kind of bought into that, you know, that you probably would need money to get the time. it was not until someone in our community died having an accident that was about my age that i realized that to wait for the money to show up, or to wait for things to get better or whatever or change, was really unrealistic, because at the time that person died, i realized that we only have right now. the future isn't here, and we don't know what the future is.

so i went for a walk to celebrate this person's life. it was a 20-mile walk. my girlfriend went with me. and on the way back i decided that i'm already walking, i'm going to just continue walking. and that's what i did. when i got home i gave her the keys to the car and just continued walking. >> hinojosa: what gave you the-- two things-- the moment to just say, "i'm definitely going to do it," and what gave you the kind of moral center to say, "and i'm going to stick with it"? a lot of people start things, but they can't necessarily stay with it. >> my parents tell me it's my hard-headedness. >> hinojosa: and your parents actually thought you were losing it. >> well, they did. but my dad was wanting to know why i didn't think of this thing about not riding in cars when i was 16. >> hinojosa: in philadelphia. >> in philadelphia, you know, because it could have saved him a lot of dough. >> hinojosa: years later, you

decide that you want to take this... would you say it's a personal form of protest? you know, the not using motorized transport? >> well, you know, it's been called that, and i didn't really think of it as a protest so much as actually a lifestyle choice. i thought people were going to follow me right away when i stopped riding in cars. but what did happen was that i found myself getting in arguments. >> hinojosa: oh, you were having to defend yourself all the time. >> i was having to defend myself, you know? >> hinojosa: so you have this kind of peaceful self that is walking everyplace, you know, far from gas, and then you've got to come home and basically, you know, be able to defend what you're doing. >> yeah, it happens on the road. people pull up alongside me and say, "john, get in the car." and i go, "no, man, i'm not getting in the car." they said, "what are you walking for?" and i said, "for the environment," you know? and they go, "you're just doing this to make us look bad, man,

or to feel bad." >> hinojosa: oh, you were trying to make them look bad. i see. >> yeah, you know, and to feel guilty and to, you know, come on and walk. and maybe, to some degree, at that early stage i... that was true. but then i decided that, "look, i'm arguing all the time." on my birthday, which was coming up, i was going to be turning 27, "i'm going to decide," i said, "to not speak for one day." >> hinojosa: not argue back, not speak, not engage. >> give it a rest. and so i didn't. my birthday came, i didn't speak for that one day, and i learned something right away. >> hinojosa: which was? >> i had not been listening. i would normally listen to someone just enough to think i knew what they were going to say. and then i would stop listening to them, and in my own mind rush ahead to think what i was going to say back to show them that i knew better, they were wrong,

and i could say it better. and of course that stopped all communication. >> hinojosa: what did that feel like? >> well, to learn that i had been doing that? >> well, actually more like when you stopped talking and you realized that you didn't even have the combative inner voice, the inner chatter? that's, i think, the favorite thing that i've learned from your story, is that, wow, so you can actually stop the chatter. you really were able to do that? >> yeah. and the reason... it took a little while. it took a few months of not speaking. >> hinojosa: wow. months, okay. >> because once you stop talking, you have these voices of past conversations, i think dangling conversations, they might be called. you know, "he said that, and then she said that, and i said that, but i could have said this," you know? >> hinojosa: and you're doing this all in your head. >> all in your head, and you're all, "next time i'm going to say this." and you keep doing this, and it just drives you... you know. well, you know. but that's because you have

these conversations. but if you stop having those conversations in reality, all that playback goes away, because you're not having those kinds of conversations anymore. >> hinojosa: you say that there was a point in your life you were already walking, and you had stopped talking, and you said, "i decided to use my life for change and to learn what that means." >> yeah. >> hinojosa: so essentially you were almost, like, looking at your life and saying, "i'm going to learn what it means to be..." what, an activist? a change maker? so in the end, what does it feel like? >> what i discovered walking across the country and not speaking is i rediscovered myself. because as a black man growing

up in the united states, i would see all kinds of media reflections that did not portray me in the most positive light. i saw criminals, i saw sports figures. i could be a sports figure maybe. or i could be a comedian, you know? but... >> hinojosa: this is the '70s, '80s. richard pryor. >> right. but i could not be the person that i am today. and i didn't see that person. but not speaking allowed me... and walking allowed me to go on this journey and to find myself as a human being-- not a black person, not a white person, not a person of color, but a human being. >> hinojosa: not even an american. >> not even an american. >> hinojosa: because you crossed borders. you walked all across south america. >> hinojosa: yeah, and that was the connection to find that, you know, we're connected to each other all the way.

and my walk across the united states allowed me... and i studied. i got my masters in montana and a ph.d. in wisconsin. but what... my education, my informal education of listening and being with so many people, i realized that even though... when i stopped riding in cars, i thought environment was about trees and pollution and endangered species and all those things. and in my formal education, that's what it was. but my informal education taught me that we're all part of the environment. and if we want to treat the environment in a positive and sustainable way, our first opportunity is with the person sitting across from us, or the person next to us. it's how we treat each other that is so important in how we're going to treat the environment. >> hinojosa: so that if we treat each other with respect, dignity, even though we may

disagree, that that's the first steps of having an environmental consciousness. >> absolutely, absolutely. and if you look at the world and you see how we're treating each other, you can understand why we have so many, you know, environmental problems. >> hinojosa: one of the things that you said, and this is a quote from you, you said, "growing up as a black person in america, it never had occurred to me that you could do whatever you wanted to do. as a black person in america i thought that was only reserved for the white people." >> yeah. >> hinojosa: so now, you know, when you look out, people still see you as a black man in america. >> yeah. and i am a person of color. >> hinojosa: yes. >> yes, i am, you know. >> hinojosa: but at the same time, you've gone through this very profound experience. how has it changed you in a profound way? yes, you are a black man in america, and yet you're saying, "i'm connected to the earth, i'm a human being." but i think that's really what it is, is that once you can let

yourself out of all of the pretenses and the connections that people, say, put on you, and then come back to that place where, "yeah, oh, i'm different." i look different. i'm not denying that. but we're all connected, and we're all the same as well. so i think that's where we're trying to get to. or anyway, that's where i got to. >> hinojosa: you started driving again, or using a car, in 1995. >> right, yeah. >> hinojosa: you started using your voice in 1990. so, you know, when you look back, did you in fact change the... i mean, you changed yourself, and your mom and dad, i bet, and your girlfriends, and et cetera, et cetera. but did you change the world? >> well, i think it's... you know, you really want to look at... when you start thinking

about changing the world, the first person you want to start to change is yourself. and so i think that as i am related to everyone else in the world, changing yourself, changing myself, did in some ways change the world. in a larger sense, when i started walking, when i just started... got out of my car and started walking, and walked across the united states, if someone had said to me, "john, you'll change the world," or, "you'll make a difference if you just get out of your automobile and start walking east," and as i got a little bit further on they said, "yeah, and shut up, too. you're going to change the world, you're going to make a difference," you know? and i would have thought maybe, you know, they'd been doing something that they shouldn't have been doing. but that's what happened. i mean, by the time i got to the east coast, i had a ph.d. in environmental studies, i had written on oil spills for my

dissertation, exxon valdez happened. i was the only ph.d. writing on oil spills at that time in the united states. i was hired by the united states coast guard to help write the regulations for the country. and so there i am sitting in washington, dc 20 years later after seeing this oil spill, writing the regulations, the oil pollution regulations for the united states. i have to say that i believe that we all have that possiblity, that journey, inside ourselves, that if we do the things that our heart says to do, that we are going to make a difference and we are going to change the world. >> hinojosa: so is that the lesson? first started walking, you wanted people to kind of start walking with you. >> yeah. >> hinojosa: so should we... you know, should... i took a vow of silence for about a day. it was a lot of fun. it was before i had kids. i' never stopped using

transport. is that youressage, "dlike me"? >> well, the are aot of people out there who are giving up riding in their autobiles, particularly young people. >> hinojosa: i know, and that's kind of... did you ever... i mean, in a sense you're such a visionary, because now people really are trying to stop. >> people are, and young people are actually going on these long walks, the long journeys. and, you know, they write me and let me konw that they're doing that. and it's very interesting f me, because never expected that was going to happen. to aid that, i guess, i'm working on a new initiative and a curriculum called planetlines, which... >> hinojosa: and this is for grade school? >> k through university. >> hinojosa: and what's the essence of the curriculum? >> well, it is an environmental studies curriculum. and as i say, environmental studies now for me goes beyond what we traditionally think of environment to encompass human

rights, civil rights, economic equity, gender equality, and how we treat each other, meaning all our relations. but at the same time, while we go on this walk and we're collecting this anectodal data, stories about people we meet and what they do and what kind of jobs they have and how they relate to the environment, at the same time you can measure wtih little instruments that we carry, an instrument pack, temperature and humidity and soil moisture and water quality. and all those things go into a line on a web site which allow us to look at our journey, and people tshare that journey. and the more people that do that, the better we know, the more we know about the place we live. >> hinojosa: so you're back with us entirely. >> i am. >> hinojosa: you are... you continue to walk, but you're in

cars, you're in trains, you're in planes. you have a family with young children. >> yes. >> hinojosa: you're obviously talking. >> i am. >> hinojosa: you are. although, you know, people have said that because of the fact that you didn't speak for 17 years that your vocal cords are actually very young. but what do you miss? you know, do you find yourself in the hustle and bustle sometimes and say, "wow, i miss walking," or do you find yourself arguing and say, "i really need to be quiet"? >> i try not to argue. i try to really keep centered about that. it just seems like a very important lesson for me, and something that we all could work on, which is to be able to really listen fully to each other. >> hinojosa: when you feel like you're not listening fully, does something catch you and say, "john, stop"? >> yeah, it does. >> hinojosa: when does that happen? >> if i find myself getting angry, you know, and i'm going,

"well, wait, i have to stop." and if i'm listening to someone and take whatever it is that i'm getting angry about, and i say, "okay, you're going to be able to get angry about that, but not right now. just put that aside, and listen to this person, because maybe you haven't heard yet of what you need to hear. now, you can always get angry. you can always come back and have what you believe to be that, you know, inside you. but let's put it aside for now and listen." angry is maybe the wrong word. passionate is... i think that's the better word. >> hinojosa: so here's a question i have for you. i mean, i'm sure that over these years when you were walking and not talking, the number of times that people said to you, "john francis, (speaking spanish), you're crazy"... >> si. >> hinojosa: you know, and you did... again, you did walk

through south america, across the united states. when people would say this to you, well, of course you couldn't respond to them, but, you know, what did that do to constantly have people questioning you, saying, "are you all right, are you okay, john?" >> yeah, i had to question myself. and that's another lesson, to continue to question yourself. because i had to question myself to allow myself to get back into motorized vehicles again. >> hinojosa: when did it happen? >> it happened in venezuela, as i walked through a prison town, eldorado. and i felt as though i was in prison. and unlike not riding, not speaking, where every year i ask myself, "is this the proper thing, does it still work," i never questioned not riding in automobiles. and it wasn't until i walked through this prison town that i felt that i was in prison. and when the guard asked me for my passport i said, "oh, no, i don't need to show you my passport. i'm john francis, i'm a goodwill

ambassador for the un, and i'm walking around the world." which is very unlike me. and, you know, he didn't shoot me, and i walked on into the forest. and it took me 100 miles to figure out what it was that was going through my mind to do that. and it was that the walking had become a prison. i had never expected to become a un goodwill ambassador or a ph.d., and i never expected i'd have these responsbilities that i owed to the people who helped me get all that education, and for the un who had appointed me this. and so i decided that when i got to brazil, which was several hundred miles away, i would... >> hinojosa: when you talk about several hundred miles away, we're talking what, weeks? >> yeah. >> hinojosa: okay. >> weeks. and what i was going to do was i was going to use motorized vehicles to come back home, visit my parents, who thought they would never see me again. and that was another reason.

>> hinojosa: right, because actually, i mean, to see your parents would mean maybe two years of travel or walk. >> yeah, even longer. and i wasn't going to see them in this lifetime if i had countinued doing what i was doing. >> hinojosa: so even though your dad was always saying to you, "son, i don't know what's the matter with you, son," there was a profound amount of love between the two of you. >> oh, absolutely. he always showed up. you know, in the book you see that he's always coming to... when i get to get my first degree in oregon he shows up there and he goes, "we're really proud of you, son, but you have to start riding in cars and talking." and we get to montana, you know, i'm graduating with a masters, he goes, "what are you going to do with a masters degree if you don't ride in cars and you don't talk?" >> hinojosa: so he kept on you. it was like year after year. >> hinojosa: i'm in wisconsin getting a ph.d. and he shows up again and he goes, "listen, your mom and i are really proud of you." and he's looking around at my apartment.

and he goes, "my sister said maybe i should leave you alone, because you seem to be doing a lot better when you're not saying anything. but ph.ds are a dime a dozen. what are you going to do with a ph.d. if you don't ride in cars and talk?" >> hinojosa: you... part of the reason why you decided that you wanted to talk again was to be able to tell your parents that you love them. >> well, you know, i did. and i have to say, at ten years, at the tenth anniversary of me not speaking i called my parents on the phone, and my mother thought it was my brother. and i said, "no, this is johnny." she said, "well, tell me something that only you and i know." and i told her something. >> hinojosa: so this is ten years into your... >> ten years into my silence. >> hinojosa: so you broke it. >> i broke that silence to call them and say, "look, i'm getting ready to... you're going to hear that i'm getting ready to walk around the world. and i want you to know that i'm going to be all right and that i

love you." >> hinojosa: aww. >> and my mother called my dad to get on the phone, and i spoke for about an hour. and then i stopped. >> hinojosa: for another seven years. >> another seven years. >> hinojosa: wow. so john, you say that there are a lot of young people who are actually engaged with your story, they're learning about your story. >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: so what do you want to say to these young people? i mean, in the end, what should we do in relat... what should each of us do in relation to the environment and to our own personal position on what we should be doing? >> well, you know, as i said before, i really firmly believe that how we treat each other is our first opportunity to treat the environment in a sustainable way. if we are the environment, if we are the environment, then that is fundamental. all the other things that we do are extremely important, but they'll be like putting a band-aid on something if we can't learn to live together and

treat each other with respect and dignity. >> hinojosa: so you were able to do this, though. you were able to function. you were able to teach, to get a ph.d. >> yeah, yeah. >> hinojosa: so, you know, there might be some people who say, "well, maybe that is what i should do. maybe i should..." and that's okay. >> that's okay, that's okay. it's just... i don't want to tell you what your journey is going to look like, what you should do. >> hinojosa: right, well, so the message that you want to leave with the young people who are watching today, and not-so-young people, you found your way by not using a car, by not... you know, by not talking. how do you want young people to find their own way? leave us with those thoughts. >> well, i think there's... you know, you have to look for that something inside you that comes from your heart. you'll know what that feels like. and go with that. you know, that's the beginning of your journey. and someone asked me, "how will

i know when i'm my journey, john?" and i said, "well, you climb up to that mountain there, you see, and when you get to the top you turn around and you look back, and you see where you came from." >> and they go, "yeah, yeah." i said, "that's your path." i said, "if you practice being good to others and to yourself, you'll be on your path." >> hinojosa: well, thank you so much for those words. we appreciate that. john francis, good luck on your continuing journey, and thank you for joining us. >> thanks very much. continue the conversation at wgbh.org/oneonone. captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

- [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation and hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy and by klru's producers circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. - i'm evan smith. in no time flat, he's emerged as one of hollywood's most celebrated writers and directors. his critically acclaimed films include mud, midnight special, and most recently, loving, which earned an academy award nomination this year. he's jeff nichols, this is overheard. (upbeat music) (audience applauding) let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa-- you can say that he's made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. you know, you've sought a problem and over time, took it on and-- let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak.