democracynow.org 05/26/17 05/26/17 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> it was a question of implementing the only way, the only thing they could do to stop a program which was to support social rights they wanted to set back. they were not able to do this through elections, so they did it through the impeachment. amy: today we spend the hour looking at the growing political crisis in brazil and air an

exclusive extended broadcast interview with ousted brazilian president dilma roussef. she was impeached last year in what many described as a legislative coup. this comes as brazil is engulfed in a major corruption scandal. rousseff is a former political prisoner who took part in the underground resistance to the u.s.-backed brazilian dictatorship in the 1960's. she was jailed where she was repeatedly tortured. >> when a was a prisoner in rio de janeiro, they would throw water at you and it would also connect wires to your toes. they would also place on your head these electric cables. is worst thing in torture electrical shock. amy: we will first speak with pulitzer prize winning journalist glenn greenwald, who is based in brazil, about how the country's major corruption scandal has only widened.

at its center are many of the right-wing politicians who orchestrated rousseff's ouster, including her successor, president michel temer. he said troops into the streets of the capital brasilia this week. all that and more, coming up. orchestrated rousseff's ouster, including her successor, welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in a major setback to president trump, the u.s. 4th circuit court of appeals has refused to reinstate trump's ban on all refugees and citizens of six majority-muslim nations from entering the united states in the majority decision chief judge roger gregory wrote that trump's executive order uses "vague words of national security, but in con drips with religious intolerance, animus, and discrimination." the justice department has vowed to challenge the appeals court ruling and take it to the supreme court. in montana, republican tech millionaire greg gianforte has won a special election for the state's sole congressional seat

a day after he was charged with assaulting a reporter. gianforte won about 51% of the vote defeating democratic , challenger rob quist received 44%. on wednesday, gianforte body-slammed guardian reporter ben jacobs to the floor after jacobs tried to ask about the republican healthcare plan. gianforte addressed the incident during his victory speech last night. an action i can't take back. i am a proud of what happened. i should not have responded in the way that i did. and for that, i am sorry. amy: more than $6 million was spent by outside groups in montana's special election, 90% of the money favored gianforte. "the washington post" is reporting president trump's son-in-law and influential advisor jared kushner has become a focus of the investigation

into russia's meddling in the 2016 election. according to "the post," investigators are focusing on meetings kushner had with the russian ambassador sergey kislyak and the head of a russian bank which had been under u.s. sanctions. "the post" reports kushner is the only current white house official known to be considered a key person in the fbi probe. president trump met with nato leaders in brussels thursday and accused certain member countries of owing massive amounts of money to the u.s. and nato. pres. trump: 23 of the 28 member nations are not paying with a should be paying and what they're supposed to be paying for their defense. this is not fair to the people and taxpayers of the united states. amy: under nato rules, state contributions are considered voluntary. meanwhile trump made headlines , in brussels when he was videotaped apparently shoving the prime minister of montenegro

in order to get to the front of the group of world leaders. in news from egypt, at least 24 coptic christians have died after gunmen opened fire on a bus headed to a monastery south of cairo. the attack comes less than two months after 46 people died in a interpretingngs coptic churches. the government has blocked access to many new sites, including al jazeera, huffington post, arabic, and mada masr which is the leading independent news outlet in egypt. in britain, an eighth arrest has been made in connection to monday's suicide bombing in manchester that killed 22 people. this comes as investigators are attempting to piece together the recent whereabouts of the suspected bomber salman abedi. authorities believe the manchester-born man was recently attempting to piece together the in libya and then traveled back to britain via turkey and germany. abedi's sister said she believed he carried out the bombings as revenge for the wars in the middle east. she said -- "i think he saw children --

muslim children -- dying everywhere, and wanted revenge." the manchester bombings comes just weeks before british voters head to the polls for a general election. earlier today british labour , leader jeremy corbyn said there is a link between foreign policy and the growing terror threat. >> we must be brave enough to isit that the war on terror not working. we need a smarter way to reduce the threat from countries that nurture terrorists and generate terrorism. amy: meanwhile, in syria, u.s.-led coalition air strikes have reportedly killed at least 35 civilians, including five children, in the eastern town of mayadeen. according to the syrian observatory for human rights the , strikes hit a series of residential buildings. the pentagon has admitted in a new report at least 105 iraqi civilians died in u.s. airstrike -- airstrikes in mosul in march, making it one of the deadliest u.s. bombings of the war. but u.s. central command blamed the high death toll on explosives that militants from

islamic state were storing in the targeted building. the pentagon's death estimate is far lower than previous counts. iraqi civil defense forces initially put the death toll at 278 civilians. on capitol hill bipartisan , resolutions have been introduced in the senate and house to block president trump's $110 billion saudi arms deal. the senate bill was introduced by republican rand paul and democrats chris murphy and al franken. in a statement senator paul said , -- "given saudi arabia's past support of terror, poor human rights record, and questionable tactics in its war in yemen, congress must carefully consider and thoroughly debate if selling them billions of dollars of arms is in our best national security interest at this time." and while trump was visiting brussels on his first european trip as president, barack obama spoke in berlin thursday. he never mentioned trump by name but said countries should not , hide behind walls. he also expressed concern that progress made on health care reform in the united states will soon be rolled back.

pres. obama: certainly, i have some regrets that we weren't able to get everyone health care and obviously, some of the progress we made is now imperiled because there is still a significant debate taking place in the united states. but the point is, for those 20 million people, their lives have been better. and we have set a standard of what is possible that people can then build on. amy: obama's remarks came a day after the congressional budget office said the new republican healthcare plan would cause 23 million people to lose their healthcare by 2026. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. today we spend the hour looking at the growing political crisis in brazil and air an exclusive broadcast interview with former brazilian president dilma rousseff. she was impeached last august as brazil in what many described as a legislative coup. her impeachment came as brazil was engulfed in a major

corruption scandal, but rousseff herself was never accused of any financial impropriety. her removal ended nearly 14 years of rule by the left-leaning workers party which had been credited with lifting millions of brazilians out of poverty. since rousseff's removal from -- ouster last year brazil's , corruption scandal has only widened. at the center of the scandal are many of the right-wing politicians who orchestrated rousseff's ouster. her successor, brazilian president michel temer, is now facing mounting calls to resign or be impeached, following explosive testimony released by the supreme court accusing him of accepting millions of dollars in bribes since 2010. on wednesday, temer authorized the deployment of the army to the capital brasilia as tens of thousands of protesters marched to congress to demand his resignation. facing public outcry temer has since order the troops off the streets. in a moment, we will air our recent interview with dilma rousseff. but first, i want to turn to interview juan gonzalez and i did on wednesday with the pulitzer prize winning journalist glenn greenwald who

is based in brazil. i asked him to describe recent events there. >> it is amazing because we have spoken often over the past 18 months of the political crisis. i thought you could never have a more insane and unhinged political situation as was in brazil until november 2016 when i thought the u.s. has surprised it and brazil looks same. againste argument impeachment all along was that in the scope of wrongdoing, whatever you think of dilma , what she was even accused of, even if you believe it all, so pills in comparison to the criminality and corruption of virtually everybody who is surrounding her and would be empowered once she was removed that to remove her in the name of corruption was to be so perverse because what you're doing was empowering corruption. now you have michel temer, who

could never have been elected on his own, was extremely unpopular -- literally single digits of approval, has had one corruption scandal after the next, a full third of his cabinet are now the targets of criminal investigations. but what has really reached a boiling point, what caused it to really explode, was lasttargetsk video and audio tapes surfaced of him meeting just three months ago with a millionaire or a multimillionaire executive in which he approved and encouraged and even directed the payment of bribes, including the house speaker who presided over dilm a's impeachment, to keep the silence as part of the investigation, directing bribes to other members of his party -- ackley getting caught on tape ordering bribes. this is the person they installed with a removed dilma

in the name of corruption. amy: and they did not accuse her personally. >> she is one of the few officials in brasilia was never been accused of corruption for her own personal gain. this has been piling up, the accusations against temer. everyone agreed to ignore them because he was willing to be a popular as a result. brazilian elites wanted him in there because he was one of the few willing to do it. now it is even too embarrassing event for brazil to have a president i think that everyone can listen to ordering bribes. he is refusing to resign. the combination of his refusing to leave office at the same time imposing very harsh and severe austerity cuts that are harming , listening tozil tales of the rich stealing hundreds of millions or billions of dollars has caused serious protests which commented yesterday at the nation's capital, demanding his ouster. my husband, who is donna city

council of rio de janeiro as part of the socialist party was there. he said he is never seen aggression of the tight not only shooting live, bullets at protesters, but the military has been deployed by president temer onto the streets to battle activists and protesters. juan: i want to ask you about lula, the former president. there are new charges apparently on top of some existing charges against him? clearly, an attempt to get him convicted on something so he would not be a little run for because he is the one of the most popular figures in brazil? >> incredible irony. if you remove temer, the question becomes, how do you select his replacement? the only two choices are you let the congress, which is one of

the most corrupt lot is in the world, choose his replacement, yet another corrupt individual, or allow the natural course of democracy to take hold, which is elections. the problem is if there are elections, it is highly likely that lula, who presided over economic growth and lifting tens of millions of people out of poverty, would be elected. imagine going through this whole political crisis of removing return.nly to have lula they are petrified of that. at the same time, he faces serious corruption allegations. these are not invented. none of them has been proven, but they're also not jokes. it is almost a rush to see if the elites can make him and eligible to run by convicting him of a crime or whether he can beat them by having a presidential election which he is likely to win. that is the struggle taking place. amy: the police using live bullets. have people being killed? people were, two

shot. they are in the hospital. no one knows there commission. to open live bullets on political protesters is as extreme as a government can be. amy: we are moving into our extended interview with the ousted president dilma rousseff. in a minute, can you describe the significance? this woman who was a guerrilla, who was imprisoned, tortured herself -- she was tortured and then became president of brazil. a complex story. i interviewed her last year. she is one of the most inspiring women on the planet for the reasons you just encountered. she is incredibly strong and resolute. at the same time, she presided over a lot of economic suffering. there is no question she mismanaged the economy. yet in the middle of this extreme corruption, they found almost nothing on her yet she was removed. her legacy is pretty mixed and

at the same time, i think she has found complete vindication because that was always her argument, which is, the people removing the in the name of corruption are the ones who are most corrupt and doing it to protect themselves. that has borne out. amy: pulitzer prize winning journalist glenn greenwald speaking on thursday. he lives in brazil. shortly after we taped that interview, brazilian president michel temer ordered brazilian troops off the streets. when we come back from break we , will air our exclusive extended interview with former brazilian president dilma rousseff. among the things she will talk about is being tortured and jailed under the brazilian dictatorship and how she rose to become president of brazil. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we continue to look at the political crisis in brazil, we

turn to brazil's ousted president dilma rousseff, who was impeached last year in what many describe as a coup. her removal ended nearly 14 years of rule by the left-leaning workers party, which had been credited with lifting millions of brazilians out of poverty. rousseff is a former political prisoner who took part in the underground resistance to the u.s.-backed brazilian dictatorship in the 1960's. she was jailed from 1970 to 1972 during which time she was , repeatedly tortured. dilma rousseff would later become a key figure in the workers party under president luiz inacio lula da silva. she was elected president in 2010 and re-elected in 2014. i spoke with president rousseff when she came to new york in april. i began by asking her how, and why, she was ousted from power last year. >> i believe that the motives that led me to be removed from my position as president and in

what was really a coup d'etat because there was no real high crime and misdemeanor in my case i could attribute this to three , motives. one, which is more important than all the others, has to do with great misogyny and for the first time a woman was elected president. this misogynist treatment has to do with how men and women are seen and described in politics. women are harsh and insensitive. men are strong and sensitive. women, when working intensely, are considered obsessive compulsive. whereas a man is considered a hard worker.

so all of these uses of instruments to attack a woman were mobilized against me. in addition to the many low quality words but what led to , the impeachment were two major , things. they sought to keep -- they, the one, coup-mongers, from the pmdb and psdb, two political parties in brazil. they were trying to keep the corruption investigations from reaching them, so they said we're going to get rid of her in order to keep the investigations from continuing and for this thing to continue. in addition we had won four , elections in a row with a government program that was clearly against many of the trends that were in vogue in the united states, in europe which , were exacerbating inequality. we were fighting inequality and

we had secured some very important results. we took brazil off of the u.n.'s map of poverty and we lifted up 86 million from extreme poverty. we were not selling our lands without any limitations to foreigners. and above all else, we had a whole structure of social protection in brazil. so for the coup mongers, it was a question of implementing the only way, the only thing they could do to stop our program which was to support social , rights they wanted to set back. our gains for workers. they were not able to do this through elections so they did it , through the impeachment.

amy: the man who led the charge against you, who led your yearshment, now faces 15 in prison for corruption. your thoughts? >> what i regret is the fact that what led him to be put on trial and to be convicted for 15 years -- well, i'm not a position to give an opinion about the situation of the inquiry, the right to defense and so forth. but what i do know is that all of the evidence that led to his conviction was available to the judiciary and the prosecutorial authorities before my impeachment. the strange thing is that they let that process run before my impeachment and they didn't take any measures. because no one was unaware of it.

there was a whole set of evidence before april 17, 2016, that incriminated mr. eduardo cunha. so that's my first assessment. my second assessment is that he came forward. he wasn't just one person. he represents a very bad process in a very dangerous process , which is the following. brazil always had to construct a democratic center for governance . and that need to have a democratic center stemmed from the 1988 constitution when we emerged from the dictatorship and embarked upon democracy. and having this democratic center, while it was progressive , now what happened with the

arrival of eduardo cunha on the scene that go he was ultra conservative with respect to social rights but especially with respect to individual and collective rights. he's a homophobic man. he opposed the women's policy having a gender bias for , example which is absurd. , so what happened is that he led to the hegemony of the far right over the democratic center , which led to this coup. those who are also part of the group are as responsible for the coup as he is. so the fact that he is in prison doesn't mean that those kinds of political practices that he represented were extinguished. quite to the contrary. today, they are all in the government, those who supported the two and who constitute a very strong political group along with him. amy: brazil supreme court

ordered probes into 98 politicians, including one third of the current president temer's cabinet. would you say part of the reason you were impeached is that they feared the investigated themselves? they were trying to stop this? only one whoe thinks that. there my impeachment, president out of recording. and that recording was a conversation between two senators. well, one senator and one former senator, both of the same party of pmdb, the brazilian democratic movement party. what did this recording say? one of the senators who was a major leader of the coup, senator homero, said to the other one who was recording the conversation -- "look the president needs to be , removed so that we can stop the bloodletting." now what does that mean?

welcome he continued to explain it. because she will not interrupt the investigations into the carwash scandal. she will not interrupt any investigation into corruption. and so we need to remove her by forming a national pact that would impede those investigations from reaching us. this reason is the reason that led the politicians to carry out the coup. the politicians that always lost the elections to us the brazilian social democratic party, the party of the last senator and the current senator who were foreign ministers of the republic. and let me tell you i don't , believe that the reason that led to the coup was just that. that's part of the reason. the other part of the reason had to do with trying to bring brazil economically, socially, and politically into neo-liberal

policies because we had blocked part of neolibal polies which would ansform e public budget into a budget emptyf any social content. and this part -- this was the most important part. it was strategic to draw part of the market, part of the media the big brazilian media to , support impeachment because ey were losing hope of their programs becoming viabley democric means. so they had to suspend democracy. but you can'suspend democracy like you might have suspended a military coup before. but they introduced exceptional measures into democrat -- and to democracy. and one of these which would be an exception in the united states and brazil would be impeachment without what is called, a crime of responsibility and that is equivalent to what in the u.s. constitution is called high crimes and misdemeanors.

the allegation for removing the ways that i had issued three degrees which represented 0.15% of primary expenditure, not even of the total budget, is 0.15%. and that i had set aside a subsidy for farmers small medium and large which is something , that's been done in brazil since 1994. it's just that. well, they changed the understanding and had a backward looking understanding. in other words i was accused of , something that i didn't even participate in. amy: temer, the man who would replace you when you were ousted. >> i don't like to mention his is, the vicewas, president of the republic who, unfortunately, is not someone you can trust. brazilan't trust him and can't trust him. amy: "the wall street journal"

just reported a former construction executive in brazil said the brazilian president temer was involved in a deal to final a $40 million bribe to his political party, an allegation that threaten to erode his ability to govern. your thoughts on this latest news? >> look, i think if this happened to him it is extremely serious. because $40 million, that would 130, 100 40 million reales, the brazilian currency. it will have to be proven. even though the president is my political adversary, i still think he should enjoy the right to defense. but i can let you know that this is very serious if it is proven. i don't think someone should be free, much less be president,f that is the case. but as i say, it has to be proven. if one is democratic minded for

one's adversary as well. president rousseff, you have a very important history that expresses the history of brazil. can you talk about your years in the underground, how you got involved with politics, and then being imprisoned? >> look, i was 20 going on 21 old -- i was 15, 16 result when the military coup occurred. the military coup in brazil had two moments - that moment in 1964 for and then again in 1968. it was in 1968 that they really shut everything down. from 1964 to 1968, there was still a democratic space with people debating, discussing. it was a time of great cultural

activity in brazil -- music and the opposition movement began in the streets. there was the march of 100,000, which was so important in brazil. in 1968, they shut things down, shutting things down in brazil meant the following -- no one can express disagreement. if a student were to express disagreement, they would be put in prison and they might be in prison for a long time. in addition to that, the whole process of repression began. the harshest repression. i am a person who was affected, my generation was very much affected by this shut down. we went into the resistance. the resistance could only be, as you said, underground because if you are at the resisting or arguing against them, reducing worker rights or supporting students, then you would be put in prison.

so there was no way. you either had to go into the underground. and so people went underground and moved about there. in that process, gradually as of 1968, they established a center -- centers that were responsible for investigation -- for investigating people and taking people to prison. now as of they began to kill 1970, people depending on their begin an activist. they might kill him or her. many of the people i worked with were killed in those situations. generousen to prison 161970. so i survived. i wasn't on that list of people who were going to die.

because it was as of september that they began to kill. so it was a very tough process for me. why? because you were taken prisoner. immediately you were tortured so that you could turn in your companions and there it was a fight against time. torture is a fight against time. no one is a hero in torture. people are capable of resisting. each of us is capable of resisting his or her own way. how did i do so? well, you try to find resources within yourself to gain time against the interrogator. and you have to keep certain things in your mind always. you know more than they do about yourself. second, you can never believe -- well, if you think you can put up with it for a day, that's a good strategy. or you have to put up with it for one minute, two minutes, three minutes, 10 minutes. attorney ines is an

the face of pain. so it is a very tough process. i will tell you something about women. it is very interesting. women and men face torture. they grow weak in the face of torture because it's not a but i will tell you about women . we have an ability to deal with pain which is different from men. i think it's because we bear children -- for various reasons. but what i perceived was great strength among women to maintain their integrity in the face of torture, which is very important. torture can't destroy you. and what you have to do with respect to your companions and your colleagues to keep them from being destroyed, those who are weaker are the ones who you have to support the most so that they can recover afterwards. you can't think about your colleagues and your companions that because might have turned someone in or said something under torture that they become

your enemy. no, and that's what women do you do support them and protect them. and that's what women do very well. so it's a very tough process. no one should have to suffer torture because the military regime. but i think that those of us who experienced what we experienced -- well, i learned several things. i learned how to resist. i also learned that you can't ever think that you're going to be defeated in prison unless you want them to defeat you. defeat is not just an objective reality. defeat is a reaction in the face of difficulty. so i severed two coos, to do blows. torture and this parliamentary coup. and they're not going to defeat me. and i owe this to all of my colleagues who did not survive.

amy: when you are imprisoned, how do they torture you. >> it was absurd that they had a protocol. the protocol for torture was like this. i was taken prisoner by a military and semi-military group that was under military control. it was a center that was controlled by the brazilian armed forces. you would be taken to immediate leave. there would be a strong din and murmuring of people shouting. it's a way to throw you off. and, then, well the first thing they would do in my time --- well, later it was different because they'd put hood on peoples. but when i was a prisoner in rio division now, -- rio de janeiro they did the following.

, they would throw water at you and they would also connect wires to your toes when they still hadn't taken off your close. and they would also place on your head and ear these electric cables. the worst thing in torture is electrical shock. and then they would do what was called the parrot perch which is , a method where they would place a stick or a bar under your knees and then place your hands on you susanne bier and there they are. and they would combine this technique with electrical shock. the problem is that your ligaments begin to hurt a lot up -- and then at a certain point -- and then at a certain point in time the blood stops running and the pain diminishes somewhat. it's unimaginable. people would withstand it because we were 20 years old. i don't think somebody my age today would be able to withstand it. at the time, i was 20 years old. and if you are 20 result, you can withstand anything. basically the torture was like , that. now there's a basic component of

torture in all torture and all times of history and everywhere. the person who is torturing, the group that is torturing you, once you to receive, first of all, that you are not part of the category of human beings. and also that no one likes you and that no one has a relationship of understanding with you. that is to say a relationship whereby i recognize you. you recognize me. and we have a certain empathy because we are the same gender or because we have common experiences for several reasons will stop or even just because we're all human beings. so they want to short-circuit that perception. and they have two ways of doing so. aggression, but also another, which was to block you. that is to say, by placing a foot over you and you don't see the person who is talking with you. so you have an issue of sensory

deprivation and that is also , very common. they want to cut off all contact with the outside world amy: you knew what happened when you became an underground guerrilla. what gave you the courage to take on the state in this way? you knew that people were being killed and that that's what you risked, losing her life. >> what makes people struggle in those conditions anywhere in the world is the conviction that you are fighting for a better world. you have to believe it will stop no one is able to struggle if they don't think that they are fighting for a better world. convinced we were fighting for a better world. more than believing in it. we were absolutely certain of it.

i believe that the force that led the movements at that time in many parts of the world not and brazil in the 1960's 1970's. and there's the question of democracy. i think the most serious thing that can be done to a country during military dictatorship is for its youth to not have any hope in democracy. because if there's one thing that you learn in that struggle you learn democracy is the only regime, mechanism, space for action. for what? for you to be able to transform your country. always in brazil when democracy was reduced, it was through these coups, through exceptional measures through the saviors of , the homeland. democracy mitigated and so

social transformation is reduced or eliminated or there are setbacks. i learned in life that if you have a commitment to your country, you have to expand democracy. that's why the name of this program is so important, democracy now! it's very important this idea in brazil. democracy now because we only win with democracy and we lose when democracy is attacked. and so we have this expression in brazil. democracy is the right side of history. and i believe in this because democracy is the right side of history. and democracy emerged with two concepts. there are two concepts that emerged in the time of the greeks, which is our tradition. the concept of democracy and the concept of politics. even where there is an selective democracy, that is to say when

it is possible to have a democracy in the public plaza, in the public space, politics means you have to take a position in society upholding , the interests of all your community or in your activity. without that, it is impossible to have a democratic process. i don't believe that there is any country in the world with democracy without politics. technocrats don't engage in politics in the broad sense of the term. amy: after brazilian president dilma rousseff. the blago crisis in brazil has only intensified since we spoke in april. her successor, michel temer, is facing mounting calls to resign or be impeached following explosive testimony released by the supreme court in brazil accusing him of accepting millions of dollars in bribes

since 2010. on wednesday, the authorized the deployment of the army to the capital brasilia as tens of thousands of protesters marched to congress to demand his resignation. facing public outcry, temer has since order the troops off the streets. when we come back, i will ask dilma rousseff, the first female president of brazil, about democracy, corruption, and president donald trump. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we return now to my conversation

with former brazilian president dilma rousseff recorded in april. madam president, i want to ask your thoughts today -- you are in the united states this week when the u.s. dropped the largest bomb in the history of the world. the pentagon calls it the mother of all bombs. a massive ordnance air bomb on afghanistan. the largest bomb in the history of the world since the atomic bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki. this followed last week's bombing of syria and the continued u.s.-backed bombing in yemen. your thoughts? now, i'm not the president of the republic, but i would tell -- i will tell you what we would have said as president. without a shadow of a doubt we

, are against that kind of action. why? i don't think it resolves the first, problem of isis. why do i think that this kind of repression isn't the appropriate approach? what i've read in the united states newspapers is that often times when bombing syria or afghanistan -- well, i know there is no dialogue with ices. with isis, it is a different kind of relationship. but what has happened is that when bombing civilians and allies are killed. so i ask myself what's the point of such an action if it's going to kill civilians and allies? what might someone think who's living in syria or anywhere and all of a sudden a bomb is dropped? i think it's extremely dangerous because those groups don't gauge consequences. it's a very radical policy. so i am extremely concerned about the reaction afterwards. that is to say, i don't believe that there's any circumstance in

which we can come up with some easy answer. when the war was taken to iraq, when the war was taken to afghanistan, when there was a bombing done in syria, it's very difficult. and this unleashes the whole process of such violence that the consequences are uncontrollable. how long has it been that they've been fighting in syria and they're not able to stop isis? how long has al nusra and al qaeda continue doing what -- continued doing what they are doing? so i think we need to ask about this. and i'm very concerned when civilians and allies are the ones who are killed. that is what it says in today's newspaper. so i don't think that such bombardments produce results and i'm not in favor of dropping bombs when they kill civilians and allies because it's just putting more fuel on the fire.

amy: the bomb was developed during the bush years. he did not use it, george w. bush, in a rack. president obama did not use it. within two months of the trump presidency, they having gauged in this historic act, the largest bomb in the history of the world outside, om. your assessment of the trump administration and president donald trump? truck >> i don't evaluate the performance of presidents of other countries because i'm a former president so i don't talk about that. obviously i have an assessment but i don't think it's appropriate that it's , appropriate for me to talk about it. feel has been done

right? i don't have anything to say. well, i'm not going to talk about that. my assessment of the trump administration is something i'm not going to talk about. it's not up to me to do that. that's your job. amy: i want to end by showing a clip of noam chomsky, the world renowned dissident, linguist, who recently appeared on democracy now! and talked about brazil. >> just enormous corruption. it is painful to see the workers party in brazil, which did carry out significant measures -- they just could not keep their hands out of the till. and they joined the surely which is robbing all the time and discredited themselves. i don't think the game is over by any means. there were real successes achieved. i think a lot of it will be

sustained, but there is regression off to pick up again with, one hopes, with more --est forces that won't be that will, first of all, recognize the need to develop the economy in a way which has a solid foundation, not just based on raw material exports. and secondly, honest enough to carry out decent programs without robbing the public at the same time. amy: so that was noam chomsky, who said there was just enormous corruption. he said painful to see the workers party in brazil, which did carry out significant measures but they just could not keep their hands out of the till. the first thing i want to say is the following. i want to put some things in perspective. the greatest corruption in

recent years occurred with the subprime crisis. now, i don't know that as a result of the subprime crisis -- i don't believe that all of the companies that were involved in corruption were destroyed. maybe their ceos or others who committed corruption had to answer for it, but they didn't destroy the institution. rather they took the person who committed the crime. the company is not thinking and just the company is not a thinking and speaking entity. the company is all of its compounds together. now unless the entire it's corrupt in its entirety then you , don't destroy the organization. so. why do i say this? well first to say that brazil has the greatest corruption in recent years -- brazil's corruption is significant. it matters to brazil. it has to be fought. later, i can tell you about what i don'trnment did, but

think that the party has to be destroyed. i don't believe that banks were destroyed or agencies were destroyed or that persons who were not involved were persecuted. same thing applies to a political party. because the political party as an institution, well some say it's different from a company , but i don't believe that one should criminalize the workers party. one should criminalize and prosecute the individual members of the party who committed crimes. but one should not combat the entire workers party in brazil , which is the largest party in brazil without a doubt. no. i'm sorry to get so excited but i want to explain the following. i think it is fundamental in

brazil to fight corruption. i think it is fundamental because corruption in brazil is a way in which economic power interferes with political power. in one of the processes in his corruption is characterized by the fact that in brazil, before -- even though it is spelled out in the law -- those who come to corrupt public officials have never been prosecuted. in 2013, for example, there was a law on crime-fighting going organizations that we sent to congress, and two measures had been taken. so the one who made the mistake should pay for it. the law exists. it should be properly applied. the workers party will answer for its mistakes. it has to. but not by putting an end to the party. punish the individuals who

committed the crime but not the , party. this whole story of punishing the whole party dates back to 1946 when all opposition parties well, thethat had -- more radical opposition. the communist party, brazilian socialist party remain illegal. i don't agree with that whole process. i don't agree with destroying companies. i've never seen a single bank or company destroyed. i saw ceo's have to answer. now what i find extremely petrobras,they take the state oil company, and make it -- paint it as being corrupt per se. there are many people in petrobras who are corrupted and who are accused of corruption. so i think it's very clear the one who corrupted, the one who was corrupted should be prosecuted with a right to defense without spectacular media treatment.

because what's happening in brazil is that the media places people on trial before the case even goes into the courts. now, i don't think that in any democracy in the world, as far as i know, the media can take the place of the judiciary. i don't believe the media guarantee the right to defense. it plays a fundamental role in democracy. now the role of meting out , justice has to be performed by those who have an institutional mandate to do so. amy: finally, president rousseff , in the 1960's, you were involved with the underground resistance to oppose dictatorship. are you seeing a right-wing shift in latin america and the united states? and what form do you think that resistance should take today?

today it is difficult. i believe that our resistance today -- and this is a major gain for us in latin america - today we can resist without having to go into the underground, without - rather, using the most important weapon of democracy, which is the word and "debate." we can do that today. before we couldn't. before we were somehow shackled by the dictatorship. today, our resistance and the resistance in the united states is the same. that is to say i think we are , all going through the full in process. there is an increase in financialization instead of the financial industry serving productive industry and productive services and all activities. the financial sector became the master on becoming the master it channels to itself the largest

part of income and this produces inequality, stagnation, precarious employment, and co-optation by some of the press. which means that shareholders, ceos, all of management are the models who are above and beyond the workers, the consumers, and so forth. in other words, it creates a world which is not going to bring well-being and affluence for the population as a whole. we're all going through that tion,beralism, financializa greater inequality and more and , more exceptional type measures. here in the united states as well. the patriot act in a way was an exceptional act. because when you put persons on trial without guarantees, then, well that's an exceptional type , of act. this happens in brazil with several measures. for example a court has said

, that i can suspend the constitution because the car wash scandal is exceptional event, and therefore we can , suspend the law. but that's not possible. way, mitigated a democracy that we have to expand. we are experiencing a time of greater inequality and financialization. in a way, taking stock of the history of our experiences of our movements. we have a lot, all of us, who defend democracy have a lot to share with one another. amy: ouster brazilian president dilma rousseff. if you would like a copy of today's show, you can go to our website democracynow.org. tune in monday, memorial day, when we will spend the hour with noam chomsky. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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