- [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by claire and carl stuart. - i'm evan smith. he's a much-loved grammy award nominated comedian, writer, and actor whose latest film is the political thriller chappaquiddick. he's jim gaffigan, this is overheard. (applause) let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it? you saw a problem and over time took it on, and-- (audience laughing) let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. are you gonna run for president? i think i just got an f from you, actually. (audience laughing) (applause) jim gaffigan, welcome. - thank you for having me. - can i confess something when i heard you

were in a film called chappaquiddick? i thought, a comedy about chappaquiddick? (audience laughing) - oh, right! - it's not a comedy. - no, it's not a comedy. - it's the actual chappaquiddick. - it's a look at the story that really kind of affected ted kennedy's life completely-- - arguably changed history, right? if you believe the idea - absolutely! - that ted kennedy was going to be president at some point, and this might have been the thing that disabled it, right? - oh yeah, beyond a doubt. and it's also interesting given our current political climate, like what ted kennedy got away with, the entitlement and stuff like that. it's a really fascinating look. - you and i are the same age, we're both 51. - 51, but i look 50. (audience laughing) - is that right? you don't look a day over 50 and a half. - i barely look 50 and six months. - so we were three years old when this happened. so i have no memory of it, i just know what i've read over the years. and i suspect that when you were contemplating taking this role, and you contemplated joining the cast, again, not

something that you had a lot of experience with. - i think everybody of our age knows about chappaquiddick. we know that when ted was running, he was challenging carter, that chappaquiddick essentially stopped his chances. what i find so fascinating about chappaquiddick is that the movie is presented as not a hit piece, it's not an apology, they're not trying to rewrite history, it's presented as what good art should do, is ask questions. and chappaquiddick is a horrible thing. it's what happened. - well, the scene where the car goes off the bridge is really difficult to watch. and you think you know what's coming, but no. it's really hard, and the way it's staged is very simple but it's also very powerful. - oh yeah, and we went there and we shot the scene in mexico but we went to chappaquiddick, and it's not that deep.

it's really scary. but what i think is so interesting about chappaquiddick is ted kennedy, whether you love him or you hate him, i mean i'm an irish catholic so i'm predisposed to love the kennedys, but ted kennedy, this horrible event, and this coverup, you know like the quintessential white guy entitlement rich people get away with murder thing, but you sit there and you look at the span of his career, and you go, maybe there should be some redemption for people. if chappaquiddick happened today, ted kennedy would be in jail, but it's not as if he didn't do some good. - but it had a low ceiling, because he could only do so much good because of this thing that was sitting there in his past, you talk about the coverup. so your character-- - yeah, paul markham. - in this movie is paul markham. paul markham was the us attorney in massachusetts.

he is a kennedy friend. - yeah, a kennedy friend. i mean there's the real history, and then there's what we tried to characterize in the movie. and paul markham, the character i was portraying, was very much an instrument to show how alluring being part of the kennedy clan was. and so in the movie, paul markham my character, finally gains entry into this camelot kind of world of being part of the kennedy group. but by getting sucked in, he has to then participate in this coverup, which is-- - right, 'cause it's markham and it's cousin joey, who's played by ed helms. - yes. - who gets the call from kennedy, who's played by jason clarke. - yes. - jason clarke, i remembered. i was looking at jason clarke. i was watching the movie thinking, where have i seen this guy, and i remembered him from zero dark thirty, but he's actually done quite a lot of stuff since-- - he's done a lot of stuff. - since then. so markham and cousin joe get a call from kennedy,

and then the next day they're actually upset among other things, at the fact that he didn't report this incident in a timely fashion. - right. - right? - there's a lot of different theories on what actually happened that night, but one of the things that is covered is at this night out where there was a lot of alcohol, and there was a lot of married men and single women, that this event occurred, ted came back to the house, and he asked for two people. one happens to be his cousin who essentially raised as a brother with him, and another was a lawyer. and so it was definitely pursuing a legal solution from this, but it's hard to characterize it without looking at some of the emotional impact that ted had gone through.

we know his brothers were killed. and we know that he was young, and we know that he was pursuing good things. we know he was corrupted, that he was a philandering drunk. but it's hard to separate that from the humanity of who he was, and i think jason does an amazing job portraying him. - and it's hard also to not think about the family of the girl who was killed. - oh, insane, yeah. - right, who was played in this movie by kate mara. - yes. - last seen being killed in house of cards. - yes. (audience laughing) and what's interesting is-- - we're not making a joke about that, by the way. - what's interesting, i think, about you watch the movie and the kopechnes don't blame ted. and that kind of is used as a pivotal point in him maybe going, all right, i'm not gonna be defined by this one event, or maybe he uses it to propel this massive coverup.

ed helms' character presents the right thing to do. i'm just this innocent guy who's thrilled to be part of the kennedy group, and now i'm completely corrupted. - suddenly in the middle of all this. - paul markham could have been a supreme court judge, we don't know, but his career was kind of damaged. - that was pretty much it. i said at the beginning it's hard to think of this not as a comedy given the fact that you're in it, but you have done dramatic acting before, this is not the first time. you like doing this. this is something that you enjoy? - oh, i love acting. it's just the process of getting acting roles that i find... (audience laughing) - right, it would stand to reason that that would be one obstacle. not getting a role would be an obstacle to being in a film. - auditioning, i describe it as it's kind of like stripping but you don't get a dollar. (audience laughing) it's a very humiliating process. i love acting, but i work in the perception industry. and so i'm perceived as a funny guy.

and ed helms's a very funny guy, but-- - although ed helms too has made the transition as you have. - and i think it's odder for a serious person to do something funny than a funny person - [both] to do something serious. - is the harder time on the perception industry, is the harder time for them to see you in a dramatic role, or for you to see yourself in a dramatic role? - oh i think it's them. i think it's those people. - you're perfectly comfortable with-- - i enjoy it. i mean, look, my twitter feed, there'll be an episode of law & order that will air and people will almost sound angry that i was in an episode of law & order. - how dare you! - yeah, they're like, you're supposed to just be talking about food. (audience laughing) - yeah! we were visiting before we came out here about your program, tv land, and i guess it airs on multiple places. the jim gaffigan show which was two seasons but is no longer back. in some respects, that's acting except you are acting

as you, a fictionalized version of you. and that's become a more or less common form for people in comedy. i think about marc maron's program, or louis ck's program, right? but nonetheless, it's a pretty good show. - oh, thank you. - you're very good at being you. (audience laughing) - we had an episode where i had to audition to be me. but when we were doing the show, there's me, there's stand-up comedy me, and then there's actor-y me in the jim gaffigan show, and we described it as removing iq points along the way. (audience laughing) - as you go down the line. - it's like, all right this guy doesn't know anything. - so you play you, but someone else plays your wife. - yes. - your actual wife does not play your wife, although your actual wife has a role. - yes. - in that she had been the co-writer of this program. we wrote all the-- - jeanne. - jeannie. and executive producer of it. - jeannie, and is an extraordinary writer, accomplished writer herself.

did she ever consider the possibility of being herself in this? - she did consider it, and the show itself was first at nbc, and then it was at cbs, and then we ended up at tv land and along that path there's bureaucracy that exists where people wanted a household name to play the character of jeannie. and we also realized that it was good to have someone who could direct or who could be the executive producer and have a perspective on the scene, rather than being involved in it. - right, or you could just decide to be like kevin james and randomly kill your wife on the show and then put a new person in, they said nobody would actually know it. it's convenient that way. hard to kill your actual wife, right? - hard to kill. i tried. (audience laughing) - and there are five kids on the show, who are your kids. and you have five kids in real life. and they're also played by not your actual kids. - we did a pilot episode where it was our kids.

it was just a bad idea. and i've done a lot of stuff. i did commercials with my kids. acting is relatively boring. it's a lot of sitting around and waiting. - waiting, right. - we want our kids to have somewhat of a normal childhood. and there are plenty of actor kids that wanna do that. - right, i love the fact that you are as devoted to the story of your family in the show as you are, because it is the case and i think it's quite admirable honestly. i make a lot of it that in real life you're a devoted family person, too. i know people who are devoted to their families. part of the gaffigan brand is that you put family first. that despite your career being so busy and all the things that you do, you always find time to have dinner with your family if you're in new york, you take your kids with you and your wife on tour if you can. as we're sitting here in austin, texas, you don't have your family with, but you could encounter you with your family around.

i just think that's an admirable thing and it must be difficult to manage in the course of having a busy career as a comedian and actor. - it is complicated, but it's also a luxury, i should say. i'm very lucky that when we've done stuff on a tour bus, and we have five kids on a tour bus, that i'm fortunate that i can do a theater in a city and then drive overnight to another theater, and i'm also fortunate that my wife is interested in doing stuff like this. and you know, say, all right for columbus day weekend, now we're going to seattle! i think some people would be like, no we're not doing that. (audience laughing) - right, not only are we not doing that, you're not doing that. - right. - but it's the family business. - it's the family business. and i feel like i'm very fortunate to do what i enjoy. and the reason i am a comedian, i was raised to seek security, to wear a collared shirt and a tie,

and so when i chose this path of being a comedian and actor, i kind of put it in this rocking chair test. like at the end of my life i'm in a rocking chair, what am i gonna look back and regret. and that's the same approach i have with being a parent or being around my children. it's like in hindsight, am i gonna sit there and go, why didn't i just bring my family too when i did a show in london and i didn't make any money because i brought everyone, but at least everyone was there. - and they have an experience that they remember, and you get to be with them. and this is the important part, so you have five kids. the oldest is 13? - 13. - oldest is 13, so it's five under 13. the other thing i didn't mention that i love is that you try not to work on sunday. - yes. - right? i mean this is the kind of thing that the best people i know do. they say we're never gonna get this time back with our family, and so i'm gonna construct my life where we put them first and we schedule around them, as opposed to the reverse. and i think that's-- - oh, thank you. - it's an honorable and an admirable thing. - well, thanks.

- so that's part of the gaffigan brand. also part of the gaffigan brand, and we heathens in the media may make too much of this, is he doesn't curse in his stand-up. that it's clean comedy. do we make too much? i know that everyone always says that you mention jim gaffigan, and they go, oh he's a clean comic. as if somehow that's a knock on you or a ding. - yeah, it's interesting because i am clean. but my joke when people say, why don't you curse? i always say jesus told me not to. (audience laughing) but i do feel as though comedians spend a lot of time developing and discovering their point of view, whether it be irreverent, or whether it be combative, or whether it be observational, or silly. and i think a lot of comedians get their point of view or their style, and then people give credit or criticism to them for embracing it, like oh you're so brave.

it's like, they're not really that brave. that's just who they are. and some of it is where they're from and family culture. i mean, look i curse when i stub my toe or anything like that, but if i'm on stage in front of a bunch of strangers talking about muffins, it's not really necessary. (audience laughing) so it would seem inauthentic. - right, well this is who you are. - yeah, and that being said, i've done five hours of stand-up, and i'm touring with this new hour. and some of it is, and i love stand-up so much, but some of similar to talking with friends you challenge them. you don't have the same conversation with the friends you really enjoy talking to. it's evolving.

so you challenge them, and they challenge you. and so the conversation can shift. i'm not just talking about food only. i'm not just talking about my kids only. but it's the context of knowing, all right this guy has five kids, that i can talk about some other aspect of, in this hour my wife having a brain tumor, which was-- - and saying, let's just accept, thank god she's okay. - oh yeah, thank god, right? - right, but that's you're just talking to people about the stuff that is important and interesting to you. - right. - and it doesn't necessarily require you to be richard pryor or chris rock. - right. - and you acknowledge that, i mean richard pryor i know is an influence of yours. you loved richard pryor's comedy growing up. these are people who had no problem cursing. that was part of their approach to the craft. and you don't begrudge them that, you're not judging them. - no, some of my favorite comedians curse and stuff like that, but some of it's about being authentic. i had this interview with larry king, and he said-- - oh, please tell me he cursed.

(audience laughing) - no, but he asked me, he said you know it's so interesting as i'm asking you why don't you curse, and this is larry king, he goes when i started doing this when i would interview comedians, i would ask - [both] why do you curse? - this is how the world has shifted. - yeah. and so some of it is in new york, developing in new york, i'm a '90s comedian, it just didn't sound right coming out of me. it's not like i didn't-- - you are who you are. i was trying to think of another comedian who, if i think about this notion of a clean comedian, and somebody who's unbelievably funny but who's family friendly as a comedian, and i was thinking jerry seinfeld. and i saw the episode of the jerry seinfeld internet thing, comedians in-- - cars. - cars with coffee. he's an idol of yours, or somebody who you aspire to be like, right? you like him. - yeah. a big inspiration. - definitely. i think seinfeld is-- - it occurred to me you all were similar in that way.

- i think comedians have to develop a set of principles or rules for how they write and how they view comedy. comedians are constantly talking about comedy, and seinfeld is somebody who's, you know seinfeld and chris rock, and dave chappelle, they're always talking comedy, but seinfeld believes in these absolutes. his theories about always working on ideas and coming up with a fresh perspective, it's worked great for him. so it's really interesting to talk to him about it. - and he, like you, is an observational comedian. there are different-- - i'll tell him that he's an observational comedian. he hates it. - he hates to hear that. - because he's an absolutist. - we need to categorize people - he goes, it's just funny or not funny. that's all it is. - but it's a style of comedy that at least we novices, lay people on the outside, who like to put people in categories, that's his category. - [jim] absolutely. - when did you know you wanted to do this?

if i'm remembering this right, you went to college, you went to purdue for a short while, and then went to - [both] georgetown. - and then came out of college and went into advertising immediately, is that right? - i studied finance in college. i'm the youngest of six kids - six kids, right. - i'm from a small town, like my father was-- - [evan] in illinois. - the first one to go to college. and so we were raised to seek this security, and then you'd work your ass off and then when you're in your '60s you play golf for five years, and then you die. (audience laughing) and so that's how i was raised. - we have about 10 years left. you make it sound good. (audience laughing) they get to work on some other stuff. - and so i was raised to do that, and i just followed what people were supposed, you know, they're like do this, you know. go to this school, study finance, get this job, and then you're set. and the reality is, is it wasn't fulfilling, and so i-- - how soon after you took the job outta college

did you decide, it's not really for me? - i'd say it was pretty soon. - it was? - it was pretty soon where i had this romantic notion, like the night before graduation i told a friend, i told her, i said, you know i wanna be a comedian and an actor, and i said, but i know everyone wants to do that, and she's like, i don't think everyone wants to do that, and i'm like, no, everyone does. (audience laughing) like i just thought everyone wanted to do that. - had you done anything in college that made you think i'm good at this, or had you experimented in any way? you sort of knew it intuitively that that's what you-- - i had hosted a talent show in college, but i was essentially just drunk the entire time. (audience laughing) because i had incredible stage fright for i'd say the first 10 years i did stand-up. - really? - yeah, it was something-- - it seems like a problem. (audience laughing) - it's huge, i mean actually i pursued these improv classes because i had such a fear of, even working in advertising when i started i would talk,

and i would just turn bright red because i would just start hyperventilating and someone suggested i do an improv class so that i could feel more comfortable. - [evan] just get better at it. - yeah. - how many nights do you spend on the road now touring, with or without family. when you're working on comedy, how often are you out? - i would say there's 52 weeks, i would say at least 40. - god, it just seems grueling. - you know, it's... first of all there's a big difference between staying in a super 8 hotel and staying in a nice hotel. - right, you're in the nice hotel phase of your career. - right. i'm in austin right now. - doing how many nights? - two nights. - two nights, but you're here for multiple days. so when you say that you're on the road a lot, it's not like literally stop, travel, stop, travel, stop, travel. sometimes it's like come to a place, hang out for a few days, right? - it's typically just one or two nights, which is done by design and i'm grateful for it.

so that i can get back and be with my family. so i might be gone friday, saturday, and i'm home sunday. and i leave early friday morning, but i would say there is something about, i enjoy it. and believe me, i'm a complainer, traveling is not something i enjoy, but going through this scare with my wife being gravely ill, and there was this possibility where i was gonna be a single father with five kids. and i was not about to just outsource this to someone else and continue my career path, so i feel like i'm getting a second wind at this. - new lease on life. - yeah, so it's like, yeah, sitting at an airport's not great, but-- - beats being a single parent. - yeah, it beats-- - thank god your wife's okay. - yeah. - right. the shows that you do are typically the same shows? how iterative is your process?

do you find that from show to show within a city or within the course of a week or two that you're refining and adding, and what's your process like? - i would say it changes. i work within hours, right? and so now i'm in the process of creating a new hour, and i'll remove stuff that works and it has to be replacing something, and it has to be strong enough to replace something, and so i'll come up with new material, and it typically takes a year to come up with a new hour. but that being said, it changes a lot. we live in a day and age, where it's fascinating being this, whether you wanna call it observational comedian, because i have seen over the past year since the election, there is the mention of politics across the country has made people, i describe it,

they start looking at the ceiling. and it's because there is, so in other words the type of comedy i'm doing, this break from this topical stuff, is almost more appreciated. i was actually worried. i was like, do i have to talk about politics now? - in fact you're the antidote. - in fact i'm kind of this reprieve because most of everyone's day either watching news or reading news, so they wanna go and hear about this. - how self-critical are you, or are you-- let me ask it a different way. are you a good audience for your stuff? do you know when something is funny and it turns out that you're right? or does it sometimes, well, we'll see how this goes, and then you're surprised by the audience's reaction to it? - i would say it's an ongoing thing. there's something about, you can call it laugh ears where that's part of the editing process. you'll present an idea, and you'll hear how an audience responds to it. - you ever work it out in advance and have a trusted group of people who you bounce stuff off of? - well, my wife and i, we write together.

- right, so built in. - that's a huge thing, and there will be jokes or lines that might work in the show but my wife will say, you gotta get rid of it, and we'll have a discussion about why we have to get rid of it. - [evan] and she's usually right. - she's usually right! - that's how this goes. we have about a minute left. what's the funniest line that you're now using out. can you give us one funny thing? what's your favorite thing that you're working through? - well it's usually the newest joke is always the funniest. - so what's the latest joke? - i came up with this line. what kind of antidepressants do you have to be on to enjoy cross country skiing? (audience laughing) and that's one of those where it was, and i just plugged it in, and it was like, all right! - and it worked! (audience laughing) good. - yeah. - hey, great to have an opportunity to be with you. - thank you. - good luck on everything you're doing, and look forward to seeing you again. - appreciate it. - [evan] jim gaffigan, thanks a lot! (applause) we'd love to have you join us in the studio.

visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. - letterman was this curmudgeon who was sardonic and everything, and we shifted to jimmy fallon and ellen during the day, where it was much more palatable, and there was almost kind of a resistance to the cynicism or the misanthropic tone of a letterman. and so it kind of shifts. - [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy. and by claire and carl stuart.