news 10 at 10. >> dickerson: welcome back the "face the nation." i'm john dickerson. for more on where national security stands 15 years after the attacks of 9/11, we're joined by cbs news senior national security analyst and former homeland security adviser to george bush fran townsend. steven brill contributes to "the atlantic" and is the author of this month's cover story, "are we any and jeffrey goldberg writes for the atlantic and he's also a visiting fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace. steve, i want the start with you. you worked for a year on this article, "are we any safer," and i apologize, but can you boil it down into an answer? >> in only 20 words. >> well, we're along stronger because of the work of the people like fran did and tens of thousands of others and the trillions of dollars we spent.

changed and evolved in a way that arguably in many ways makes us less safe. >> dickerson: fran, are we adapting to that environment that steve describeed? >> you'll appreciate, john, what happens is we never adapt fast enough. as you heard from the chairman of the intelligence committee, the threat has metastasized and spread. we have more bad guys in more different places now. that's a significant threat. you add to that the internet and over the internet, even very late to that game as a government across two administrations, frankly, and that is a problem. we don't treat the internet as a battle space as we this land, air and sea. >> dickerson: jeffrey? go ahead. >> let me just say there are some old kinds of threats that we could deal with, because the threat has evolved to lone wolfe, people acting 9/11ly, the

the want to do when it comes to homeland security is do what most other countries do, which is keep assault weapons, military weapons away from terrorists. that is one easy way to adapt that doesn't cost us money and that is logical and works. >> dickerson: jeffrey, let me ask you on this broader question, barack obama came into office with a certain set of challenges. in terms of the "are we any safer" question, what does barack obama leave for his successor on that question? >> so barack obama came in with what he would refer to as a very messy barn. he was handed a global economic crisis, 180,000 troops in afghanistan and iraq, bin laden alive. and he's been preoccupied and his administration has been preoccupied with handing off to his successor a "clean barn." the barn is not that clean, unfortunately. you have vast ungoverned spaces, even though isis is being rolled back in iraq and syria to some degree. you have isis, an organization

became president, new forms of terrorism, on the other hand, you have to say this, and you say this about george w. bush, too, after 9/11 it's somewhat miraculous, but we have not had a 9/11-sized terror attack in the united states. and i do think that's somewhat miraculous given how far behind we were. so he is not handing off a perfect situation to his successor, but it is a manageable situation still i think. >> miraculous, but the miracle didn't just happen. it's because of the work that lots and lots of people did to make it happen. i think we ought to acknowledge that today. >> dickerson: let me ask you, you write in your piece, "our imagination is limited to the day's headlines." policy-makers fight the war that made those headlines, not the war that might come next. you mentioned assault weapons. that's something that's been talked about and debated.

>> let's take something that was very much in the headlines right after 9/11, the bioterror threat. the anthrax attacks. that is if anything more of a threat today than it was 15 years ago, but we have done nothing to develop technology that could really detect that kind of attack because it just happened to fall out of the headlines. >> dickerson: fran, what do you think of that? >> well, i think in fairness, across the w.m.d. s where you're talking about radiological, nuclear or chemical, we have taken different pieces of that and addressed it. we haven't done it in a comprehensive way that steve is talking about. part of that is the tyranny of the inbox. no president plans on katrina. no president plans on 9/11. so the distraction of the everyday crisis takes away from the more strategic plan that needs to be done. i do think, i come back to this.

progress we've made in killing bin laden and other leaders, the fact is you have to address the ideology. i don't think we've done an adequate job. nor have we spent the adequate resources against that problem. >> dickerson: jeffrey, getting to that question of ideology, we talked about ungoverned spaces. during the immediate aftermath of 9/11, we have to get them over there or they'll come over here. what's the state of that argument? is that still useful? >> i mean, it's a useful framework to talk about this, but to add to what steve was saying, if you have a lone wolf problem, if you have an internet problem, self-radicalization through the internet, then the people we're fighting are often people in the united states who don't even know at this moment that they're radicalized. they haven't been radicalized yet some going to what fran is talking about, this is the danger. we are safer in a sort of broad

defenses have been strengthened. we spent a trillion dollar strengthening those defenses, but we have no answer yet for the ideologies that ral calize people right here at home. and this is the danger. we are both safer and more unsafe at the same time. it's not a satisfying answer, but i think it's the correct answer. >> glad you didn't write my headline. >> dickerson: sorry. we had a little news here. i'll interrupt. hillary clinton left the events at ground zero unexpectedly today. the campaign says she felt overheated and went to her daughter's apartment and is feeling much better. but a person briefed on the matter tells cbs news that it appears she fainted when she got into her vehicle. we'll keep you updated as we learn more. steve, i want to go back to you on this question of the tyranny of the inbox. you studied a lot of complicate ed systems. let's find some... is there optimism? in other words, in a system where there's tyranny of inbox, you talked to jeh johnson, and

prioritize risks. is there a way to break out of that tyranny of the inbox? >> well, you have to have the capacity to take a step back at the same time that you worried about what is in your inbox. i think increasingly from 9/11 on, the bush administration made all kinds of management improvements as they learned. the obama administration i think has done a much better job of secretary who is finally getting his arms around the management of this agency. but it is really hard because you are dealing with a situation where at any moment you could have an emergency that you have to pay attention to. to have someone writing an article in the atlantic saying, you should worry about dirty bombs because they are a potential threat, you're looking at that morning's intel briefing that tells you exactly what that threat is that day.

>> dickerson: finally, on the social media piece, fran, you said not enough is being done. if i were coming in and i were president, what's your recommendation that i do right away? >> look at what we spend on our military and on the physical battle space to go after the ungoverned and fully governed spaces and look at what you're spending to combat it on the internet. the answer is it's so disproportionate you have to really make the commitment that this is a battle space that you're going to fight to control and fight to win in terms ideology. if you're not going to spend it there, you're not going to win there. >> dickerson: what would you spend it on? >> it's across a spectrum of things. you have both defensive operations and offensive operations. some of is is covert, some is overt. you need to have the full you need to have the full spectrum. >> dickerson: all right. >> dickerson: all right. we'll end it there. thanks to all of you. we'll be right back with our

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it's giving offshore teams onshore support. and it's empowering anyone to stop a job if something doesn't seem right. at bp, safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. >> dickerson: we turn now to politics. joining us is wall street column fist and cbs news contributor jamelle bouie is chief political contributor for "slate" magazine and amy walt is the national editor of the "cook political report." i want the read this statement from the clinton campaign. secretary clinton attended the september 11th commemoration ceremony for just an hour and 30 minutes this morning to pay her respects and greet some of the families of the falling. during the ceremony, she felt overheated so departed to go to her daughter's apartment and is feeling much better.

start on something hillary clinton said recently, some remarks that have gotten her into trouble. we played them at the top of the show in which she said she wanted to be grossly generalistic, but some trump supporters call into what she called the basket of racist, sexist, homophobe homophobic, xenophobic and islam phobic. she put out a statement then saying she was wrong to characterize half of his supporters. where are we now? >> she used original language, basket of deplorables. it was memorable, therefore it will be memorable as a gaffe. it was a mistake. you don't write off inemoral and ethical terms half of 2 supporters you're running again, meaning one quarter of the voters in the united states as such nefarious and rather wicked people. she did walk it back. she said she should not have

end of the day it was the kind of divisive and embittering language that will be... that will harkin back to two other gaffe, one is mitt romney's 47%. the other is barack obama's bitter clingers. >> dickerson: the question here, hillary clinton on the one hand talks about a better, stronger, together. so her unity has been her message. it's on her plane for goodness sake. on the other hand, she gave a speech, not a gaffe, but a full donald trump to the alt right. so this is both a gaffe from which she must retreat and also strategy. >> yeah. that's right. >> i'm inclined to see it as strategy and not so much as a gaffe because when i heard the remark, my first question was: well, is this true? right? regardless of how it sounds, what it looks like? what is the case about donald trump supporters, and if you break down the numbers and you

average 43% of them are registered voters, 30, 31 million people. compare that to polls show 65% to 70% of all republicans that say that barack obama wasn't born in the united states or is a muslim. you look at pilot data from the american national election study, and it shows upward of 40% of republicans saying things like blacks are more violent, blacks are lazier, muslims are more violent, muslims are lazier. among trump supporters in partul agree with statements political scientists categorize as being explicitly racist. so i'm looking at clinton's statement, and half, which is about 31 million people again, doesn't really seem that out of bounds. 40% to 50% of republicans i would say looking at the full spectrum of data agree with beliefs that we would categorize as explicitly prejudice. so regardless of whether or not clinton needs the walk it back,

>> and i think this gets to the bigger challenge for hillary clinton, which is she has predicated her strategy and the race so much on who she's not, and we haven't really heard a lot about who she is. and so i know there "stronger together" is on the plane. i don't know what that means. what comes after stronger together? what does that mean for me as an average american in terms of what my schools are going to look like? what my life is going to be, what the future is going to be. and so we've spent a whole lot t a lot about how terrible the other person, is how i'm an alternative to that, but it's flipping the page to, and what comes next. this is why you saw the poll today, the "washington post" poll that came out today, hillary clinton up in the national poll, but the enthusiasm gap between trump supporters and her supporters is pretty significant. i think part of that is this sense that even from folks who are democrats who want to support her who say, i don't know where the there is. >> dickerson: the campaign

offer some solution speeches. so instead of talking about solutions, she's now talking about a message she wants to get across, but not with this kind of blaring volume. >> i do think this maybe part of the stronger together message, though, because offering yourself as a unity figure doesn't preclude yourself from identifying a portion of the electorate that does hold these views. >> dickerson: donald trump has something to run with here, because there are republicans nervous about the elements within donald trump's forces >> sure, there is an alt right, we've all talked about it, but what i think is really going on in the race is that a lot of people, even after 25 years as a leader in the united states, a lot of people don't like or trust or feel approving of hillary clinton. at the same time, there are plenty of people, as anthony said, who are not confident that donald trump has the stuff to be a president.

things going on with the trump campaign is that they must know they've got to start getting a higher proportion of republicans following them. they have about 85% republican support. if you're going to compete in a place like pennsylvania, you need those suburbs that will go for a republican they feel they can trust, but if they think it's a ruffian now, they're the people you have to go for. >> dickerson: it's the suburban eat targeting with all this talk. on the question of commander-in-chief, that was a part of the conversation this week, it seems pretty clear hillary clinton is has the kind of experience and the knowledge about the various different countries. donald trump has a more improvisational approach. how do you think that sorts out with voters? >> i do think at the end of the day, this is where voters, their hesitancy translates into difficulty voting for donald trump. you see poll after poll that

lead on who do you think will be stronger as commander-in-chief, and, two, who do you ultimately think is going to be president of the united states? who do you ultimately think is going to win. poll after poll shows over 50% of voters show that they believe hillary clinton will win. that's been a more predictive question than who are you voting for today. in the "washington post" poll out today, 58% believe she's ultimately going to win. i think it comes down to that core question, which is that if you don't believe that this person, fill in the b this case it's donald trump, is qualified to be commander-in-chief, is qualified for that position. can you actually vote for them? that's a very difficult bridge to cross. >> dickerson: the question is if he can cross that by just doing more of what he keeps doing. or there are people i talk to, we seed in the survey data, as well, people think, you can have advisers and you can learn in the job. and he's been successful in private business, so he can be successful in this.

threshold question for him? >> i'm not sure that it is because those characteristics have always been part of donald trump going back to last year. so it appears not to be enough for voters, even if the trump campaign continues to double down saying they have advisers and so fort. i think there is a danger because as we saw last week in the nbc forum, trump does have a hard time talking about national security and foreign policy issues in detail. he can kind of translate feeling and sort of conviction, but when able to put forth plans, he struggled. >> clinton's weakness here is she is perceived to have this detailed sense of who the president or the under secretary of defense in pakistan is. she knows that. she knows his name. she's had dealings with him. but she has no perceived strategic vision. people can't really tell you what she would do in the world. they feel they can tell you, trump will be tough.

him. they don't have an overall sense of what she would mean in the world as a strategic hillary clinton, this is what i stand for. >> dickerson: mike pence compares donald trump to reagan in this regard. you know from reagan... >> yes, you knew you were going to get that question. >> dickerson: you knew from reagan. >> well, i have written on this, i do not see the explicit similarities that many of trump's reagan was in some respects an outsider in politics. i really can't take that that far. i think... i hate the play the reagan card, if you know what i mean, and say, hey, buddy, i knew ronald reagan, but i do not see a depth of similar late in their background or temperament. >> dickerson: okay.

there we're already outside. >> thank you so much. >> dickerson: we'll be right back. my name's hillary. i was born on september 11, 2001. i know a lot of people who go to my school and lost their parents or other family members in 9/11. i would hope people can realize how much the world has grown. doing something good makes me realize i have the power to change things. this 9/11 day, remember to do one good deed. when my father was stricken with alzheimer's, i learned firsthand how devastating this disease can be,

i also learned how important research and funding are if we're gonna put an end to this disease that puts an end to the lives and memories of our loved ones. if you or someone you know is experiencing memory problems, confusion, or other related symptoms, see a doctor or visit nantzfriends.org to learn more about alzheimer's.

>> dickerson: the new smithsonian museum of african american history and culture opens next week. cbs this morning will be there for their entire broadcast tomorrow, and cbs this morning co-host gayle king is with us for a preview. gayle, thanks for coming in on your day off. >> hi, john. >> dickerson: i want to get your impressions about the museum, since you've been, there but i first want the play a bit of an interview charlie rose did for your broadcast tomorrow with senators tim scott and cory booker. they talk about what the museum means to them. wish my grandparents could have seen opened. i know it would have given them a sense of legitimacy, a sense that they belong, that america is embracing the african american community in not a symbolic way but in a deeply substantive way. and i thought about it. i joked as i was coming in, but to cross the threshold of that building, that moment of walking into this building, i felt as if my ancestors were rejoicing in

>> i hope that one of the beauties of this museum being here will be an understanding and a appreciation of the depth of the pain, agony and tragedy faced. i hope that the weight of the past will slow the gate and bow your head. and as you walk out of here, i hope that the sense of a sense of expectation will overwhelm you and that you will feel individually responsible for making america the most amazing country for every single citizen in our land. >> dickerson: that's amazing, gayle. really powerful. >> wow. i just got goosebumps listening to both of them speak. shows you how democrats and republicans can come together and unite for a common cause.

>> dickerson: now you've been in there, right? >> when i was there it was a construction zone, but i saw it when it was just a drawing on a desk and when there was a replica. so to see it coming out of the ground, i think norah o'donnell had the best description. it looks like a crown. it doesn't look like the other kids in the class. it has its own look that's very unique, starting with the color, starting with the shape of it. but what that building represents is massive. >> dickerson: and what does it help? give me >> when i look at the full spectrum, we start with savory. that's very unpleasant. nobody wants the acknowledge it. but until you acknowledge it, it's very hard to move forward some in that museum, john, you have the shackles that were put on children. you have people's slave papers. you have an actual slaveship. we have a great story on how they got that, an actual slave slit. the casket of emmett till, a

all the way up to the election of president barack obama. >> dickerson: also harriet tubman's prayer shawl is there. >> it's bigger than black history. it's all of our history. this is a ku klux klan robe there. nat turner's bible was donated bay white family. when the museum first started, lonnie bunch, who did yeoman's work, they had no exhibits. now they have o >> dickerson: tell us who else will be on the show tomorrow? >> tomorrow colin powell, you know him very well, he was on the board, lonnie bunch, loretta lynch, our attorney general will be there, and john lewis, who they call the godfather of the museum, who was very instrumental in it becoming what it is today. >> dickerson: and you're in history. you're opening this amazing thing. >> as you know, when cbs takes a show on the road, it must be a very big deal.

pulling out all the stops means a lot to me personally. i think it means a lot to all of us. lonnie bunch says, we want it to be a place of celebration. we want it to be a place of remembrance. but it's going to be a living museum that's always changing. smiles and tears. >> dickerson: we'll celebrate and remember with you tomorrow, gayle. >> thank you for having me. >> dickerson: thanks for being here. thanks all of you for being here.

i'm a wife a sister and a grandfather i'm an office clerk arch analyst dance fitness instructor actor i'm a copywriter i'm a veteran i have lupus cerebral palsy i'm blind and i'm working in a job i love i love because i was given a chance to contribute my skills and talents to show that my disability is only one part of who i am who i am who i am at work, it's what people can do that matters for more information, visit whatcanyoudocampaign.org my name's hillary.

i know a lot of people who go to my school and lost their parents or other family members in 9/11. i would hope people can realize how much the world has grown. doing something good makes me realize i have the power to change things. this 9/11 day, remember to do one good deed. >> dickerson: that's it for us today. thanks for watching. until next week, for "face the

? sharyl: 15 years after those many lives taken, america is grappling with the unforeseen tolls. costs few could have envisioned. 15 years after 9/11, it's the terrorists versus us. who's won so far? >> the terrorists have won. scott: few men have been more radical and more influential in recruiting for isis over the years than anjem choudary. >> anjem's been arrested, but for me, it's 7 years too late, my stepbrother is already in prison. he's already been radicalized. sharyl: this high-ranking obama general was dismissed for speaking openly about defeating islamic jihadists. but general michael flynn still has a lot to say about how we can win the war. gen. flynn: we have to first clearly define the enemy.