[ cheers and applause ] ♪ this is "nightline." >> tonight, crime and art. the grammy-winning rapper young thug with hits like "check." ♪ i got money i got checks ♪ >> now behind bars without bond. his lyrics used against him in court. >> if you decide to admit your crimes over a baeat, i'm going o give to it you. >> artistic free speech or proof of a crime? >> you say lyrics, i say our culture's on trial. i think it's a slippery slope. a movement. rappers taking a stand. >> you don't see this happen in country music or rock or anything else, they just target rappers. >> two hip-hop veterans join us for discussion.

>> hip-hop music is creativity. it's art that's not real. >> they're part of a growing group of artists like jay-z and meek mill rallying to ban lyrics from the courtroom. and robby coltrane. remembering the beloved actor, hagrid to so many, from the "harry potter" films. >> you're a wizard, harry. when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck, that's when you know, it's half-washed. downy has 7 benefits that condition and smooth fibers so clothes look newer, longer. feel the difference with downy. age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein.

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♪ thanks for joining us on this friday night. hip-hop has long had a strained relationship with the law. grammy award-winning rapper young thug recently charged in a 56-count indictment in georgia. some of the evidence used against him, his own lyrics. his defenders say it's artistic free speech, not proof of a crime. here's abc's ashan singh. >> people are doing, like, not so great things right now. >> reporter: kevin lyles is gearing up for the fight of his life. >> you say lyrics, i say our culture's on trial. i think it's a very slippery slope. >> reporter: the music industry veteran is on a mission to stop prosecutors from using rap lyrics to put artists behind bars. >> we will protect black art by any means necessary, like it's my family because it's my family. >> reporter: that's what he's doing in the aftermath of the arrest of young thug and gunna,

two of his biggest stars. ♪ >> reporter: as the former president of def jam recordings, lyles has helped launch the careers of artists like ll cool j and run-dmc, megan thee stallion, mary j. blige. now the ceo of electric entertainment is teaming up with stars like jay-z, meek mill, and kelly rowland. all now pushing for new laws to protect musicians. >> targeted things that are happening right now, it's really against hip-hop and black art. in my kobe bryant voice, it's just not done. >> it's not new, whether outlaw country music or rap music. but rap is treated radically different. >> i think what we are witnessing right now is more than a moment. i think it's actually a movement. it's a movement being led by some of the biggest names. >> police arrested rapper young thug, real name jeffrey

williams. >> reporter: lyles manages the rappers, currently in jail without bond, their lyrics being used against them in court. >> the lyrics is the first of things to come. then it would be about the video. then it would be about the movie. then it would be about the documentary. then it would be about the "nightline" episode that we're doing right now. we've got to stop somewhere. >> reporter: 31-year-old young thug, real name jeffrey lamar williams, known for being one of the most influential rappers of this time. beginning the grammy for song of the year in 2019. co collaborating with childish gambino in "this is america." ♪ this is america guns in my area ♪ >> reporter: but it's lyrics from a song "anybody" featuring nicki minaj that the prosecutors are presenting alongside other evidence as proof of criminal conspiracy. ♪ i never killed anybody but i got something to do with that body ♪ >> young thug and gunna a money

a group charged in a 56-count indictment. count one, racketeering, accused of being involved in ysl, the young slime life gang. notorious in atlanta for violent crime. >> to say an artist expressing themselves, now on legal charges? i never heard it happening before. that was for real gangs that they knew were killing people that they knew were exporting people. now we're talking about lyrics. >> what is the rico act? how did we get to this spot? >> basically, a federal statute that was enacted in 1970. it was designed to go after criminal enterprises. not always, but mafia. those individuals that were involved in what would be called the mafia or the mob. i don't condone crime on any level by any person. and if young thug or gunna or anyone else, despite their affiliation or their profession, if they've been involved in criminal activity and the prosecution has evidence to support that, by all means,

bring forth those charges. but don't use music, don't use lyrics. >> reporter: the rapper speaking to his fans from jail, asking for their support. >> i always use my music as a form of expression. now i see black artists and rappers don't have that freedom. >> reporter: lyles emotionally testifying to young thug's character at a bond hearing in atlanta. >> i truly believe this whole thing that people are talking about, it's not him. the jeffrey i know, the jeffrey i know would give me clothes off his back. is jeffrey i know, i give him my that's the jeffrey i know. - >> reporter: the judge denying bond. supporters say the charges violate the artist's first amendment right to free speech. young thug's attorney, brian steele, vowing to fight, telling abc news, "mr. williams has committed no crime whatsoever. i look forward to the commencement of the jury trial."

but the district attorney believes he's the ringleader of the ysl gang and his lyrics are fair game. the first amendment does not protect people from prosecutors using it as evidence. >> i think if you decide to admit your crimes over a beat, i'm going to use it. >> the practice goes back over 30 years. but particularly in the last 10 or 15 years, we've seen a significant increase in cases and an increase specifically in these gang-related cases. >> reporter: hosts of the popular syndicated radio show "the breakfast club" weighing in. >> i don't know if those are the types of lyrics you can use in court. know what i mean? sadly, those are generic rap lyrics in 2022. now, there are plenty of people who actually detail the crime that they have committed on recrds. they detail the crimes they have committed in interviews. if i'm a prosecutor, if i'm law enforcement, i totally understand why y'all use some of those. but not those that thug just

spin. >> is use of lyrics as evidence unique to hip-hop? >> yes, absolutely. rap music is the only fictional form, musical or otherwise, that is targeted this way in the courts. >> reporter: eric ning sen is coauthor of "rap on trial: race, lyrics, guilt in america" and is often asked to testify in court as an expert in the matter. >> this is a fictional form you're using and you're attributing song lyrics to somebody's state of mind. >> how is young thug and gunna's case indicative of a bigger problem? >> it's a problem we're starting to see across the country where police and prosecutors are going after artists, often characterizing their rap groups or rap collectives as criminal street gangs and using lyrics to create those various associations. it's absolutely racist. >> reporter: 45-year-old new orleans rapper mckinley phipps is living proof how rap lyrics condition used to get a

conviction. ♪ ♪ murder murder murder murder kill kill kill it's real ♪ >> reporter: in 2001 he was sentenced to 30 years in prison for manslaughter. his own rap lyrics used as key evidence to put him away. >> murder, murder, kill, kill? >> in his opening argument, if i can recall, he said, "murder, murder, kill, kill, f with me and i'll put a bullet in your brain, these are the words of this young man." and that's definitely not the lyrics to my song. >> reporter: in the 1990s he was known as lil mack, a local celebrity recording his first hip-hop album at age 12. ♪ you know the deal ♪ >> reporter: by 19 buying his family a house, signing with the hottest record label in town. no limit with master p. >> i loved him singing in the house, singing new editions, songs and stuff. i love to do music. i love to create. >> reporter: trouble soon followed. at age 22, mack was at a

nightclub when gunfire broke out. 19-year-old baron victor jr. was shot and killed. mack had a gun on him but says he didn't fire his weapon. >> the weird thing is they used lyrics from two different songs, spliced them together to try and make it seem like one statement. >> think back to when you were making those song is. what did those lyrics mean to you back then, in what way do they reflect your rereality? >> oh, man. it was fire to me. i was a battle rapper. that was my way of telling every other emcee, i would kill you on this microphone. >> reporter: last year louisiana governor john bel edwards granted him clemency. despite what he's been through, mack is still invested in the future of the music industry. volunteering here at this after-school program. >> kids is going to blurt out

whatever. i love to see them learn. i love to see the look in their eyes when they learn something new. you know, it kind of almost makes me relive my youth in that split-second again. >> reporter: while mack empathizes with thug and gunna, he has a warning to young rappers out there who may face the same fate. >> be mindful that anything you say can be used against you. >> what's your advice, i guess, to that next generation of artists, particularly black artists, who are looking to rap, looking to become the next hip-hop star? what do you say to them? >> if you love what you do, do it. and i would definitely not tell them to censor their art. that's what people like myself and others are here to try to make sure that they don't have to censor their art, that they can be free, that they could express themselves. >> our thanks to ashan. coming up, the movement, two hip-hop veterans on the change they want to see.

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♪ rappers fat joe and e-40 may be known for their hits and contributions to hip-hop's canon, but they're also part of a growing movement of artists fighting to get laws passed to prevent lyrics from being used in the courtroom. they weigh in on protecting artistic freedom. first of all, let me thank you both for join us. >> thank you. >> let's start with you, fat joe. you supported a new york bill that would limit rap lyrics from being used in criminal cases. what was the argument you

raised? >> the argument is that hip-hop music is entertainment. you know, i lie in most of my raps so i know firsthand that these kids are talking about stuff they're not actually doing in life. so to actually take a creation, something that was brought up via imagination, and use it in a trial against somebody, is actually false. >> and so point to some of the language in the legislation and the law that specifically talks about blocking the use of lyrics in court. >> well, it's very unfortunate, and i don't want to use the same cliche, but when you think about martin scorsese, you think about all these brian depalma gangster flicks. these guys aren't brought in on charges using their movies against them. so when you have hip-hop lyrics, one of the most famous lines raw relationship said --

♪ we like to exaggerate dreaming to man 9-ate ♪ >> so this is art. to use something made up, to use it against you in a trial, it's a dangerous thing. >> it's not every day somebody goes into rap when having a conversation with me, i appreciate that, joe. earl stevens, you go by e-40, 40 as most people know you. you're from the west coast. you recently joined california governor gavin newsom on a zoom arguing for a law to limit the use of rap lyrics in criminal prosecutions. tell us about that process. >> yeah, it was just signed. we was on a zoom. maybe a week and a half, two weeks ago. my team reached out to gav's team. presented me with an opportunity to be able to speak and use my platform. i was all the way in it. >> do you think that will make a significant change? and does that affect how your art has come out over the years? >> i've always tried to tell

people that you know, we are storytellers, you know. just like people writing books, we write lyrics and make music and songs. music is our art. you know what i'm saying? and the goal is to protect our art. and our creative expression. you don't see this happen in country music or rock or anything else. they just target rappers. i feel like it's important that, you know, this -- what gav did, hopefully it will influence other states in our country to do the same thing. >> joe, we heard the story of mckinley phillips, aka mack from new orleans, who was locked up for two decades. what are your thoughts on that? >> it's hard. because now if somebody's guilty of a crime, then they got to go to jail. somebody really did the crime, they got to go to jail. but to take some lyrics, you know -- if i grabbed ten rappers right now on the corner of new york or anywhere and they start

rapping, they'll start rapping about how they have bentleys, they have mansions, they have jewelry on. these kids don't even got two quarters to rub together on the corner. >> to what extent do you think -- we talked to several music industry analysts who felt that no other genre gets treated this way. what do you think is the misunderstanding that the public and all of these institutions have about rap? >> well, hip-hop is mostly urban. and urban, to be honest on, got to be honest, we got it the hardest. we get accused of things we didn't do. you know. we go through more hardship than anyone else . >> so joe, let me bring you back in. to be fair, some have accused rap artists of having lyrics that are overly violent. do you think lyrics sometimes cross the line? >> no. i think -- i think hip-hop music is creativity. it's art. and it's not real.

okay? so we need to get that clear. you're looking at somebody that street cred, they look at fat joe like he's really real. i'm telling you that it's not real. kids up.a shame to jam these - and what 40 is trying to say is hip-hop is most. >>ly black. mostly latino. and these kids, they never are given the benefit of the doubt. even if you had a hard upbringing and you changed your life, you change your life, you're never given the benefit of the doubt that you actually changed your life to being a good person. so they're always looking at you with the extra set of eyes. and so now to take your lyrics that you created one day off the top of your imagination -- this is no different than jack and the beanstalk. this is no different than peter

pan. you take these lyrics and take somebody and put them on the hot seat, you could put them in jail for the rest of their lives using lyrics that came off the top of their mind against them, it's a dangerous thing. it's a very dangerous thing to have happen to anybody. >> joe, 40, thank you both so much for joining us. this is a debate that's going to continue, and clearly your wisdom and insights are really appreciated, so thanks. >> thank you, juju. >> thank you. and up next, robby coltrane. remembering the fan favorite from the "harry potter" movies. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪ ♪i feel free to bare my skin♪ ♪yeah, that's all me♪ ♪nothing and me go hand in hand♪ ♪nothing on my skin♪ ♪that's my new plan♪

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♪ finally tonight, fans celebrating scottish actor robbie coltrane. >> you're a wizard, harry. >> perhaps best known and most beobserved for his portrayal of the half-giant hagrid in the "harry potter" movies. the three-time bafta-winning actor also starred in two james bond films.

but he was also well aware of how much fans cherished him as hagrid, reflecting on it in an hbo max special earlier this year. >> the legacy of the movies is my children's generation will show them to their children. you could be watching in 50 years' time, easy. i'll not be here, sadly. >> don't you think on it for one minute. >> but hagrid will, yes. >> coltrane was 72. and he'll be missed. that's "nightline" for tonight. you can watch all our full episodes on hulu.