tonight, former vice president mike pence. >> the president's words were reckless, and his actions were reckless. the president's words that day at the rally endangered me and my family and everyone at the capitol building. >> speaking out for the first time in an exclusive interview with abc's david muir. >> hang mike pence! >> about the january 6th riots. >> it angered me, david. not this, not here, not in america. >> the tension with former president trump on that day. >> the president tweets "mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done. >> i turned to my daughter and said it didn't take courage to break the law. it takes courage to you hold the law. >> how he feels about the former president running again, and what he is saying about his own

plans for the white house. this special edition of "nightline," "breaking with the president: the mike pence interview" will be right back. starting with your digestive system. metamucil's plant-based fiber forms a gel to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down, helps lower cholesterol and promotes healthy blood sugar levels. while its collagen peptides help support your joint structures. so, start feeling lighter and more energetic by taking metamucil every day. try metamucil fiber gummies made with a prebiotic, plant-based fiber blend that helps promote digestive health.

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former vice president mike pence for the first time on what he witnessed that day on his duty that day and on the former president donald trump. i know this is the first time you're talking about january 6th, and we appreciate it. and that's where i want to begin. the morning of january 6th, shortly after 11:00 a.m., and i know the phone rings. the operator says please hold for the president. what did he ask you? what did he say to you when he came on the line? >> i picked up the phone, and the president asked me where i was on the electoral count that would take place that day. and i told him despite what you issued last night from your campaign, mr. president, i'd been very clear that i don't have the authority to reject votes during the electoral count or return those votes to the states. and it went downhill from there. the president became very irate

on the phone. he said that if that was true that he made a mistake five years ago. >> you write that the president told you "you will go down as a wimp." and you reminded him on the oath you both took. >> the president often said that we need to protect the country. and i reminded him we both took an oeath to support and defend the constitution of the united states. i told him it with australia promise that i made to the american people and to almighty god. >> did you ever point-blank say to the presidentially not do this, i will not intervene? we lost this election? >> i did, david, many times. >> we know because we have learned in testimony since that it's believed that the president was aware that people in that crowd, that some of them might have been armed. and that he then said "we're

going to march to the capitol," and sent them there any way. he knew that you were at the capitol, that lawmakers were at the capitol. what do you make of that? >> well , that the president's words were reckless and his actions were reckless. the president's words that day at the rally endangered me and my family and everyone at the capitol building. >> when did you learn that the rioters had breached the capitol? >> when elizabeth mcdone of the parliamentarian senate turned around and said rioters reached the first floor of the capitol. and then my secret service agent, maximilian came on the house floor and said mr. vice president, we got to go. >> you saw him walking right toward you? >> yes. he told me that we needed to leave the building because rioters had breached the capitol

on the house side. >> you're in that small office off the senate chamber now with your wife, karen, your daughter charlotte, your brother greg who is also a member of congress. and you're all watching on a small tv in that office. what did you make of what you were seeing? >> it infuriated me. as the television images started to unfold, to see people smashing their way through windows, to see them assaulting police officers and climbing over one another in a riotous scene. it angered me, david. and i was -- i was filled with indignation at not this, not here, not in america. >> we've all seen that image now of your wife karen pulling the curtain closed.

>> right. >> in that office. what was seeing and hearing? what led her to close that curtain? >> well, we could hear the crowds outside the capitol. and when we began to move, we could hear the crowds inside the capitol. >> was there fear in that office when karen closed the curtain and you were watching on that tv what was unfolding? >> i must tell you, i felt no fear. i was filled with indignation about what i saw. the secret service came in shortly thereafter and told me i needed to leave the building again. and i said i'm not leaving. but when my lead agent tim gables, who is a great public servant came in and said sir, we got to get you out of the building now, i stuck my finger

in his chest and said "you're not hearing me. i'm not leaving." i said i'm not giving those people the sight of the 16-car motorcade speeding away from the capitol. and at this point he looked at me and said well, you can't stay here. that's a glass door. we can't protect you here. and at that point, tim gable said we can take you to the loading dock. that's secure. >> we have all seen that image of you coming out of the office, going down the stairs. in that moment, what could you hear and how close were the rioters? >> well, what we could hear, the sound of footfall and chanting and crowd noise. i wouldn't learn until much later that the rioters had actually come fairly close to where we were. >> how close?

>> i leave that to others. >> there were reports they were just 40 feet away. you're now at the loading dock, and you see that the motorcade has now been repositioned facing outward to go up the ramp and out of the capitol. >> right. >> what's the first thing that comes to your mind? >> well, they were walking us toward the motorcade with the doors on our suburban open on either side. and i saw that they had positioned vehicles on the ramp. and i just turned to my secret service lead and said i'm not getting in that car. >> sir, we're not leaving? >> that he heard me, we're not leaving. we're just going to have you hold in the car. >> why wouldn't you get in the car? >> well, i looked at -- he said "we're not leaving." and i said "tim, you're a man of integrity, but you're not

driving that car." i just assumed if we got in the car and closed those 200-pound doors that not my team in the loading dock, but that somebody maybe back at secret service headquarters would simply give the driver an order to go. >> and you were concerned that if you left the capitol, you might be prevented from getting back to certify that vote? >> i -- it -- i think that was it, david. i just didn't want those rioters to see the vice president's motorcade speeding away from capitol hill. i didn't want to give them that satisfaction. >> members were barricaded inside the house chamber. i the middle of it all, you can see that the president has tweeted. 2:24 p.m. the president tweets "mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done."

>> it angered me. but i turned to my daughter who was standing nearby, and i said "it doesn't take courage to break the law. it takes courage to uphold the law." it was clear the president's words were reckless. it was clear he decided to be part of the problem. >> jimmy: it was almost immediate. the moment the tweet went out, you could see the response from riot owners the hill. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> jimmy: they were saying "hang mike pence, nothing but a traitor, he deserves to burn with the rest of them." >> well, i had -- i had no doubt that it would have the effect it had. >> over the course of several hours, you spoke with the acting defense secretary. you spoke with the joint chiefs of staff, general milliey.

>> you spoke with jeff rosen, the capital chief of police. where was the president in all of this? >> david, i was at the capitol. it wasn't at the white house. >> and when you learned later that he was watching all this unfold on tv? >> again, i can't account for what the president was doing that day. i was at a loading dock in the capitol where a riot was taking place. >> but why wasn't he making these calls? >> um, that would be a good question for him. >> is there any excuse when you see the capitol is under attack, when you know that your loyal vice president is at the capitol with his wife, with lawmakers and their staff members that you would wait until 4:17 p.m. to say go home? >> david, i don't know what the president was doing that afternoon. i know that what some testimony that's been presented to the january 6th committee.

but i knew what my duty was, my determination to do it. >> it's a remarkable moment you describe, the leadership, democrats and republicans on the phone with you. >> mr. vice president? hi. yeah, we're okay. we're here with mr. schumer, mr. mcconnell, the leadership house and senate. and how are you? oh my goodness. where are you? god bless you. i worry about you being in that capitol building. don't let anybody know where you are. >> and everyone was unanimous, we must reconvene as soon as we can to certify the vote. what did that say in that moment about democracy in this country? >> well, the same thing i saw after 9/11, david. in that moment, there were no republicans. there were no democrats. there were just americans. >> the vice president briefing leaders on the calls he's made.

>> i'm literally standing with the chief of police of the u.s. capitol police. he just informed me what you will hear through official channels, paul irving, sergeat at arms will inform you that their information is they believe the house and the senate will be able to reconvene in roughly an hour. >> thank you very much, mr. vice president. good news. >> at any point on that day on january 6th as this was unfolding, did the president reach out to talk to you to ask you how you were doing to check on your safety? >> i never heard from the president or the white house that day. >> when we come back, his first conversation with president trump five days after january 6th, and what the president asked him. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin.

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it is now five days after january 6th, and this is the first conversation between the vice president and president trump. so you walked down that narrow hallway. we know well from the vice president's office to the oval to the small dining room. and what does the president say to you? >> well, he immediately asked about karen and charlotte. he said that he had just learned they were at the capitol that day. >> five days later?

>> i told him they were fine. and then he asked "were you scared?" i said "no, i was angry." we had our differences. and i told him that seeing those people ransacking the capitol infuriated me. and then i -- i sensed genuine remorse by the president. >> did he apologize for putting your life and your wife's life, your daughter's life in danger? >> not in so many words, but in sentiment he did, david. if you get my meaning. i sensed the president was genuinely saddened by what had happened. and he expressed it also.

at one point, he simply said with his voice much more faint than it had ever been, he said "what if we hadn't had the rally?" he said it's so bad to end like this. >> we do know that the former president could announce any day now that he's running for president yet again. given all that you witnessed in the capitol on that day, this is a pretty straight forward question, a yes or a no, do you believe donald trump should ever be president again? >> david, i think that's up to the american people. but i think we'll have better choices in the future. the people of this country actually get along pretty well once you get out of politics. and i think they want to see their national leaders start to

reflect that same -- that same compassion. and generosity of spirit. and i think so in the days ahead, i think there will be better choices. > better choices than donald trump? >> and for me and my family, we will be reflecting about what our role is in that. >> will you run for president in 2024? >> well, we're giving it consideration in our house, prayerful consideration. >> do you believe you can beat donald trump? >> well, that would be for others to say. and it would be for us to decide whether or not we want to test that. >> so if you decide to run and he is up there, so be it? >> so be it. >> let me ask you, as we sit here in your home office in indiana, did you take any classified documents with you from the white house? >> i did not. >> do you see any reason for

anyone to take classified documents with them leaving the white house? >> well, there would be no reason to have classified documents, particularly if they were in an unprotected area. but i will tell you that i believe there had to be many better ways to resolve that issue than executing a search warrant at the personal residence of a former president of the united states. >> you know the justice department would say we tried. we tried to get those documents back. >> well, i understand that. executing a search warrant against a former president of the united states for the first time in history has sent the wrong message to the wider world. and i hope that the justice department will think carefully about next steps in that light. >> and do you hope that future presidents are also careful with the message they're sending if

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says he hopes as time goes on that more americans will understand what he did and why he did it on january 6th. why he kept his oath to operate and defend the constitution on that fateful day. we should note that mike pence's book "so help me god" comes out tomorrow. i'm david muir. from all of us here at "nightline" and abc news, good night.