ama: have a great night. music from metallica! with cleto and the cletones! and now, jimmy kimmel! [cheers and applause] ♪ ♪ >> jimmy: thank you! thank you! i'm your host for the show, thank you for watching. thank you for joining us here in the good old united states of america, exciting news, maybe we should have a drum roll for th

this. according to the cdc, cases of sexually transmitted disease are on the rise! america is back and so is our chlamydia, everybody! for some reason they have changed the term std to sti, did you know this? which is very bad news for the students at the systems technology institute but stis went way down at the start of the covid pandemic but they are now headed back up the charts with a what. covid was like our work is done here, you take over from here. speaking of sexually transmitted diseases, donald trump, founding father -- [laughter and cheering] he sat for a 45 minute blab-fest with tucker carlson last night on fox news. quite a chat. he covered everything from world war iii, which he seems to be rooting for, to wanting to take the president of china to a

broadway show, and also as he often does, managed to shoo-in some thoughts about the n-word. >> you don't mention -- i call it the n-word. you have to you have to go and words, you don't mention either one of them. >> jimmy: okay, that's good to know, going. >> drug but nuclear. >> nuclear. nuclear nuclear nuclear. nuclear. nuclear. nuclear. i never mentioned the word nuclear, you never hear me mention it. >> jimmy: except for 400 times in the last minute and half. >> nobody talks about nuclear, the problem, the problem we have come of the biggest problem we have in the whole world, it's not global warming, it's nuclear warming. >> jimmy: what is this baddie old man talk about? you think he means nuclear war -- maybe the reason nobody's talk about nuclear warming is because what the hell are talking about? i did a google search for nuclear warming. for 1200 results in the top one was a song on spotify by a band

called the trans-pendant, which was actually pretty good, but the reason nobody's talk about nuclear warming is because that's not a thing. this interview was terrible. not once did tucker stop and say "huh," but it did make one thing very clear, the fact that donald trump is a profoundly stupid person -- it is not of the best words, he's not a stable genius. that mental competency test he's always bragging that he passed, this is something the average 7-year-old could pass. at one point this old goat felt it important to explain how good-looking the chinese interpreter was. >> so when i dealt with the president, i was with him the whole we can. he had an incredible -- i'm not allowed to say it, because it's very impolite and very politically incorrect. a beautiful female interpreter. she was very beautiful. today we say it, they will say this is terrible, you're not allowed to say that.

but she was very professional. she spoke everywhere for him. very professional. >> jimmy: you know, that's what interpreters do. they speak every word for the professional -- vladimir putin did this too. he brought on unattractive jeopardy. that's all you have to do, get a hot interpreter, trump starts lifting sanctions like they are potato chips. and tucker carlson sits there like a doofus, he never interjects, he's like how hot was she? he's terrified because three weeks ago he found out he'd been texting his coworkers about trump saying i hate him passionately, is a demonic force, he's a destroyer, he's not going to destroy us, up and think about this every day for four years, and then after thinking about it for four years he sat down with a demonic force and slobbered all over his christmas ornaments. tucker carlson asked trump if being arrested would mean he would pull out of the race. trump said it wouldn't and i believe pulling out is not

donald trump's thing. if it was... we wouldn't have don jr. and eric if it was. [applause] it was an embarrassing interview. fox news is still in the first republican primary debate in august. maybe they can hold him in whatever prison is trump -- trump is locked income if he is not locked up, let the inmates in the audience, tucker can meet all the whites of premises to love his show. meanwhile, mike pence has been on fire lately. he was at the university of alabama last night regaling the crowd with these great stories about his life before politics. >> i went on to pursue a career in radio. i was a syndicated talk show host in indiana. i mean, i don't seem like i'm interesting enough to do that for a living. but i did. three hours a day, six days a week. it was kind of like rush limbaugh on decaf. >> jimmy: yes, decaf and

melatonin. and then they had a q&a with the students and one of the young women in particular has some very serious concerns. >> as i wake up every day and sometimes don't feel safe because i'm a woman and i feel that that's being taken away. >> jimmy: really? by who? >> by our president. >> jimmy: joe biden is taking your vagina away? my god, the man can barely write up ice -- ride a bicycle. >> i just want to know do you think that's going to change in the near future, do you think going to get better? because i'm worried that the idea of being a woman is being taken away by the democrats. >> let me assure you, help is on the way. okay? [applause] >> jimmy: that's right, captain lady parts is here to save the day. the idea that woman is asking mike pence about women's rights being taken away indicates to me they might want to have another look at the minimum gpa

requirements to get into the university of alabama, but mike pence loves this sort of thing because it's a kind of nonissue that his base absolutely feasts on. >> the american people know the answer to the question what is a woman. it's a female human being. [cheers and applause] [laughter] >> jimmy: you know what they say, when mother is away, it's time to play. and mike pence has not formally entered the race for president, but he's pulling at about 7%, which puts him in third place, according to a new morning consult paul. that paul has -- since trump is now opened up a 33-point lead over ron desantis, not a great sign when you're down 33 points to a guy who just got arrested for giving a porn star the least satisfying four seconds of her life. but the competition is heating up.

senator tim scott today announced that he is launching an exploratory committee while he thinks about may be for president, which will be an uphill climb. most people don't know who tim scott is, he's a republican senator from south carolina who owned an allstate insurance agency and if you were to win, that would make him the second black allstate guy turned president of the first of course being david palmer from "24." in other political news, cumbersome and george santos is doubling down on his claim that his jewish. he told a couple of reporters he has dna tests that prove his jewish heritage. he says the tests, not only do they prove he's jewish, proves he is barbra streisand. he made this claim to a couple of riders for jewish magazine. he didn't offer any proof that we can take him at his word, right? it's not like his lie to us before, but here's the thing, having a tiny bit of jewish ancestry does not mean you're

jewish. guillermo took one of those tests, this is true, it revealed he is .8% ashkenazi jewish. do you feel being point -- wait a minute, where it guillermo? wearers -- anybody know where guillermo is? guillermo? oh, hey, guillermo. >> jimmy! please, it's passover, trying to have a seder. >> jimmy: what are you eating there, guillermo? >> matzoh. makes me much sugar not. [laughter] >> jimmy: what you call that hat you're wearing on your head? what you call that hat on your head? >> a yarmulke. >> jimmy: very good. happy passover, you are a few days late on the seder. >> so sumi! what are you going to do! >> jimmy: wow, that's --

[applause] [cheers and applause] not sure if he is jewish but he's one hell of an actor, that's for sure. we have a fun show for use on it from "abbott elementary," went to brunson is with us and it is week three of the weeklong residency, metallica is here. one of the legendary bands that had a huge surge of popularity among young people because her song "master of puppets," was on "stranger things," they will be playing that song later on but for since we have a puppet theme we thought it would be fun to take the band to -- there's a theater, it's a popular children's theater and so we sent metallica there to get the guys a chance to actually masterson puppets. ♪ ♪ >> welcome to the marionette

theater. the palace of puppetry awaits. can i get your names? >> and james. >> eric. >> hey, i'm lars. >> i'm robert. to go hello, very nice to meet you. it can be anything you make come to left, a sock in your hand or a blanket or you name it. but these puppets can have strings. essentially what these are comedies or marionettes so he's got airplane controls and then you have foot bars, you kind of take that off the panel, this is what makes it work, it has strings on the side. strings go to the needs, in the front, there's and strings and is even a string that kind of makes it lean over and bow. >> how long does it take to become a true puppetmaster? >> that's a great question. normally many years, today we have an hour or so. >> okay then. ♪ ♪ >> now. >> i may look like a cactus but i'm actually a scandinavian

cucumber. >> we will get you smoke here, buddy. >> oh, yeah! >> wow! >> all right, guys, kids will be here soon, real puppeteers were black. >> just like all of our albums. >> okay, guys, let's go out there and puppet like our lives depend on it. >> we've got this, we've got this, [bleep]. let's go! >> we are metallica, we got this! >> three, two, one. metallica! >> once upon a time there was a happy little cactus name lars who wanted to start a band. >> i want to start a band! >> but he needed some cool friends to play with so he took out an ad in an l.a. newspaper called the recycle or because they have craigslist yet. >> does anybody want to be in a band with me? >> his wish was answered by a

cool cat named james. >> hey, i want to be in a band with you! full disclosure, i'm not spayed or neutered. >> they were so happy together, but still they needed more band members. >> we need some more band members, we need some more band members! >> yeah! >> soon they were joined by two new friends, kirk the donkey and robert the invisible man. >> hi! i'm a donkey and i like to par party! >> and i'm the invisible man and i like to party too. let's be in a band together! , on! >> now all they had to do was decide what kind of music to play. >> should we play country music? ♪ ♪ >> no, that's not right. >> country music is lame. >> what about polka?

[boos] >> no, that sucks too. >> how about salsa? ♪ ♪ >> the band didn't know what to do until they met their new friend satan. >> i'm satan! i know what kind of music you should play! you'll be rich and famous and do lots of drug -- i mean candy! lots of candy! >> yeah! yeah! >> the music you should play is... >> metal! >> what's metal? what's that? >> it's a cool music that uses electricity. watch!

♪ ♪ [applause] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [laughter and applause] ♪ ♪ >> and metallica went on to live happily ever after. ♪ ♪ [cheers and applause] >> jimmy: thanks to the guys and metallica paired we are going to take a break and we will be right back with quinta brunson. ♪ ♪

[cheers and applause] ♪ ♪ >> jimmy: welcome back, the band they are with us all week long, this is their new album, 72 seasons, it comes out that after tomorrow. metallica is here! they will be playing tonight one of their biggest hits, "master of puppets," they will be playing in its entirety later this evening so settling. mounted on the show we will be joined by bill hader and dr. jane goodall and we will have more music from metallica. over the last 16 months our first guest tonight watched a popular sitcom, won and me, sat with oprah just this month posted "saturday night live." you can see the season finale of

her show "abbott elementary" a week from tonight here on abc. say hello to quinta brunson! [cheers and applause] ♪ ♪ very good to see you! >> quinta: hi! >> jimmy: thank you for comi coming! congratulations, you did a great job on "saturday night live." >> quinta: thank you so much! be one was that scary to do? >> quinta: no. i wanted to do that ever since i was a child. you know, "snl" is like what gets most comedy people into comedy and it was the time of my life. i miss it buried >> jimmy: how old were you when you thought i would love to be on "saturday night live"? >> quinta: i was probably -- i would like college age. i wasn't a kid but i was in

college and i was like being a dork, watching "snl" at night and i just was like yeah, i would want to be a part of that cast buried >> jimmy: you mentioned something in the monologue like maybe you wanted to addition but did you ever actually make a serious attempt to be on the show? >> quinta: no. because when things are too difficult i tend to retreat, and i know people say that isn't the right way but sometimes i think it is the right way to go. i was like -- truly the audition process seemed really hard and i was just like i don't know. maybe i'll make a tv show instead. and so -- and that worked out. >> jimmy: you trusted your instincts is what you did. >> quinta: i did. >> jimmy: it did seem to work out. you showed a video during the monologue that i would like to show again if you don't mind. let's take a look at that. >> hi! we are so proud of her, but really proud of you not only because you were obviously a great mom, but because you are a teacher.

most important job there is. >> jimmy: for guy imitating obama does a really great -- it's an incredible that she looks like him, he sounds like him. >> quinta: when i first showed that ethanol to the writers, they were like is this ai? and i was like no, it's really him but ai is getting really dangerous. >> jimmy: it's running everything. >> quinta: it really is buried >> jimmy: your mom, when you got that video, did you send it to your mom immediately or did you wait to watch it while you were with her? >> quinta: i sent immediately because i didn't tell my mom that i was going, that i was going to meet him. i talk about this my mama but i keep certain stuff from her because i just don't want her to get too excited. like i don't know. and it's too much for me. it's like what do i -- i like that [bleep], i'm going to hang out with obama today so i just didn't want to say that so i just sent it to her with no information and i think -- she was like is this ai back i'm kidding. it shocked her, she was happy.

i mean, it's true, her job is the hardest in the world and i think to hear from somebody like that that she is appreciated, you know, you can't buy that kind of stuff grade i cannot pay him to make that. i tried. i'm kidding. i didn't care he wanted to make it, didn't even ask him to. >> quinta: he asked to make that, that's nice.e w much your house so mike had must be spinning with some of the stuff because were having dinner or whatever with barack obama. he sat down for an interview with oprah, who is -- would you say oprah is a friend to >> quinta: she is like -- >> jimmy: be careful... be to i know ! >> quinta: i know. she's very supportive. sometimes i feel like i've gained a mentor, other times i think i've gained another mother. which to anyone who has one mother, sometimes to can be like that's a lot of moms. but she is truly wonderful.

and a great -- i mean, i don't often ask for mentors or anything like that, but it's nice to have someone who knows the ropes of television so well just kind of be available for me to ask stuff about. >> jimmy: that is really something else. as i mentioned in your introduction, 16 months ago the show went on the air. >> quinta: i know, isn't that crazy? >> jimmy: you've got oprah and obama. >> quinta: i think i will go to space. >> jimmy: you should! you might as well go into space! meet some of the people up the there! >> quinta: i just want to -- i want to chill because i bought a house so i want to just sit the house. that's been so exciting to me. i've been watching television shows and catching up on tv. >> jimmy: watching -- very cannibalistic and away, you know? so you're hanging out in your house and that's exciting and all these fancy people you're involved with. i know you went to philadelphia to shoot. had you ever shot your show in philadelphia before?

>> quinta: so for the first time we shot in philadelphia. we shot the finale of this season in philly. i am so excited. we shot at a very famous museum that us philadelphians call the franklin institute, right? okay, good. it's really famous to these four people. [laughter] but it's like our smithsonian and that's where you go on your field trips and i was just over the moon that they let us come film there. but it was the first time so much of my crew had been to philly and we were landing right in the middle of the eagles playing the game to win the nfc east. >> jimmy: is that right? >> quinta: we landed right in the middle of that so the eagles wound up winning, we arrived at our hotel, people have already started climbing the polls in the city because that's what philadelphians do. and i crew was like so this is the city that we are making a show about. i would like yeah, this is a good representation -- >> jimmy: they've been making this very detailed show about philadelphia and then they are

in philadelphia. >> quinta: but micro loves it! they are all access to all used to work on like "survivor" or different wilderness shows. like naked and afraid, so they really like to go out into the mix, so they went out into the streets of philadelphia and also climbed polls and also became one with the people in my director randall, he brought a bunch of pizzas and ice cream for all the goals fans who were staying at our hotel. it was really incredible. >> jimmy: so they didn't attack guys and terry to pieces? >> quinta: yes. yes, because we looked out of place. >> jimmy: i remember you telling about our sandwich shop in philadelphia. this is a place that you go. we actually ordered some of these sandwiches. >> quinta: really? [cheers and applause] such a sweet surprise! thank you! >> jimmy: we got them five day delivery, so they might not be that fresh. but these are veggie, turkey,

and an italian. what would you order? >> quinta: italian. thank you! see, you ask -- i don't know what's going to happen next. to go from obama to oprah to wawa -- >> jimmy: we will take a break, quinta brunson is here. the season finale of "abbott elementary"! >> portions of jimmy kimmel are brought to you by i can't believe it's not butter. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable, i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. and left bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when my gastro saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining.

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>> so, what does a gregory peck for an overnight trip to the franklin institute? >> you have a do rag? all 13 essential items? >> course. >> and night sucks. >> night sucks? >> yeah, for after take off my day sucks. >> today's the big trip to the franklin institute. >> and it's a sleepover. >> our first sleepover. because neither of us has ever done a sleepover before. >> with teachers -- does going to be a lot of people there. >> jimmy: that is tyler james williams and quinta brunson. the finale of the season next week, your second season, right? >> quinta: yes. >> jimmy: is an overnight field trip a real thing? >> quinta: it is a real thing. i've never been a once a part of the reason i wanted to do that episode is because i wanted to live vicariously through my show because i always wanted -- thought it would be cool. it's called a sleeping,

shutting, or sleep and when people sleep at a museum -- >> jimmy: we never had that. we had the worst field trips ever. i mean we would get in the bus and go to some courthouse and watch somebody's dad get arrested. [laughter] >> quinta: watch? >> jimmy: it was never that great. although in brooklyn we went to the aquarium and the planetarium. the planetarium. >> quinta: that's a good place. >> jimmy: but they didn't let a sleepover -- >> quinta: you can sleepover at the aquarium. yeah, you can do what you want, you are rich. [laughter] but it was so exciting to actually go there and have that experience, but yeah, i had never gotten into it in real life. >> jimmy: what about your family back home? did they want to come to the set and see everybody and everyt everything? v2 it was so exciting because my family is merely on the east coast so they never get to see me do anything in person. they haven't gotten to see his season, some of my brothers and sisters have.

you know, the award shows they watch on tv. this was the first time they actually got to come see what i do in person and i feel like you can relate, sometimes people -- they see the tv show and it can't camper had what's going behind -- which is great, that's what we want tv to become we don't want you to be thinking but the gaffer's sweating holding stuff, but it was incredible for them to actually see what goes into just shot of -- one scene of the show. >> jimmy: and to meet the gang from "naked and afraid. we to guess. my dad actually just wanted to spend time with the lighting group rates of you got a sandwich and he went in their tent and he never came out. that was exciting to him. >> jimmy: why was he particularly interested in the lighting? >> quinta: the lighting department? because those are his people. my dad is a construction man. he installs lights and stuff, so he could care less about me or tyler or anybody. he was just like with the lighting dudes, like the as of real stars. >> jimmy: did anybody ask to

be on the show, to have a guest part in the show? >> quinta: no when asked what i put my family in the show. the thing about going to fill it off he is we couldn't bring our regular background kids from l.a. with us. it was crazy, because actually some of our background kids were in your metallica thing. i saw them, i spotted them. some of them were my babies. we couldn't bring them with us, you can't fly like 100 kids to philly and so -- >> jimmy: certainly not during the nfc championship game. >> quinta: would have been horrible. so we had to get kids from philly and i was like i know some kids. first of all, have a million nephews and nieces, so i think i have seven nephews and nieces in the finale episode. see if you can spot them. we all have the same face. and that was super fun, friends of mine from school who now have kids, their kids got to come be in it. it was incredible. >> jimmy: they must be excited about the show next week. is there going to be like a big thing where everyone gathers and

watches or are they doing that anyway? >> quinta: not to do my own horn but i think the people filming, they watch every wednesday. >> jimmy: did you double check to make sure all of your nieces and nephews and friends kids actually are on camera than the background of the shots? >> quinta: i did my best. look, at the end of the day, i am most worried about making a good show, so if the shots with one of my nephews, he wouldn't stop sleeping, and i said you've got to get up. you can't act like this, you are representing me. >> quinta: who is your sleepy his nephew? >> quinta: he was very little and he was in the front of the shot and i think because i was there and i'm his aunts, he just felt comfortable napping on me and i was like you got to wake up, like you've got to show up, and he's just like i'm tired. i'm like that is nap oh baby rhetoric. you need to get up and work! you need to show up! we had to pull him out because he wouldn't stop falling asleep.

>> jimmy: one of the nice things is a lot of times people are not used to being on the show they will look into the camera. on your show it actually could work. >> quinta: it's great when the kids look at the camera, we love it, we just don't love them to fall asleep. >> jimmy: based say staying awake is like 80% of it. >> quinta: that's what i'm doing right now. i'm just staying awake. >> jimmy: guillermo is asleep, but every body else. it's great to have you here, congratulations on another strong season, season two. the season finale of "abbott elementary," you can watch it one week from tonight at 9:00 here on abc. went to brunson, everybody! [cheers and applause] [cheers and applause] we will be back with metallica! ♪ you can't hurt me no more ♪ ♪ after all the pain you sent my way ♪

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>> jimmy: music from metallica, d3, did you know that the human body is composed of 70% hair and cuticles? >> really? >> jimmy: no, that was a joke but guillermo will leave just but every thing but eating he limits. >> there i am about to cook my traditional thanksgiving dinner and suddenly the visitor reaches out his talons and he eats my canopener. >> i believe you. >> reminds me of a time a big foot bicycle. >> i believe you too, gloria.

by the way, this butter is delicious. >> oh, that's not butter. >> i don't believe you, gloria. >> no really, it's i can't believe it's not butter. >> i don't believe you either. >> i have been where you are curating it's unbelievably buttery flavor and easy, smooth spread ability makes you think it's not butter. >> you and you come out of my house now! >> that's the name of the product. >> some people are crazy. unbelievable. [laughter] >> try i can't believe it's not butter today! available at your local grocery and i'm glad i found it. you wouldn't believe some of the things people suggested to help me sleep. nature sounds? ahh, no thanks. my friend's white-noise idea.

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>> jimmy: it is a very special music time, this is their album, 72 seasons, it comes out friday. here with the epic song, a monster performance, "master of puppets," metallica! [cheers and applause] is a co ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ master ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ end of passion play, crumbling away ♪ ♪ i'm your source of self-destruction ♪ ♪ veins that pump with fear, sucking darkest clear ♪

♪ leading on your death's construction ♪ ♪ taste me, you will see ♪ ♪ more is all you need ♪ ♪ dedicated to ♪ ♪ how i'm killing you ♪ ♪ come crawling faster ♪ obey your master (master) ♪ ♪ your life burns faster ♪ obey your master, master ♪ ♪ master of puppets, i'm pulling your strings ♪ ♪ twisting your mind and smashing your dreams ♪ ♪ blinded by me, you can't see a thing ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ needlework the way, never you betray ♪ ♪ life of death becoming clearer ♪ ♪ pain monopoly, ritual misery ♪ ♪ chop your breakfast on a mirror ♪ ♪ taste me, you will see ♪ ♪ more is all you need ♪ ♪ dedicated to ♪ ♪ how i'm killing you ♪ ♪ come crawling faster ♪ obey your master ♪ your life burns faster ♪ obey your master, master ♪ ♪ master of puppets, i'm pulling your strings ♪ ♪ twisting your mind and smashing your dreams ♪ ♪ blinded by me, you can't see a

thing ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪ [cheers and applause] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ master, master, where's the dreams that i've been after? ♪ ♪ master, master, you promised only lies ♪ ♪ laughter, laughter, all i hear or see is laughter ♪ ♪ laughter, laughter, laughing at my cries ♪ ♪ ♪ [dope guitar solo] ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [awesome guitar solo] ♪ ♪ ♪ hell is worth all that, natural habitat ♪ ♪ just a rhyme without a reason ♪ ♪ never-ending maze, drift on numbered days ♪ ♪ now your life is out of season ♪ ♪ i will occupy ♪ ♪ i will help you die ♪ ♪ i will run through you ♪

♪ now i rule you too ♪ ♪ come crawling faster ♪ obey your master ♪ your life burns faster ♪ obey your master, master ♪ ♪ master of puppets, i'm pulling your strings ♪ ♪ twisting your mind and smashing your dreams ♪ ♪ blinded by me, you can't see a thing ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪ ♪ just call my name 'cause i'll hear you scream ♪ ♪ master, master ♪ ♪ ♪ [sick guitar riff]

♪ ♪ [cheers and applause] ♪ master of puppets ♪ [cheers and applause] i hope this demonstrates how to make a giant difference in other people's

>> i want to think our guests going to brunson and metallica. i want to apologize to matt damon, "nightline" is next. i want to thank our audience for clapping for no apparent reason. thank you for watching, good night! [cheers and applause] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ >> this is "nightline." >> tonight, pardon power. an army sergeant found guilty of murdering a protester during the black lives matter march. >> i remember hearing gunshots and then just him falling over in front of me. >> now the texas governor says the shooting was justified under the state's stand your ground law despite the jury's decision. >> the law says that you're not entitled to start a fight and then kill someone and claim self-defense. >> why governor abbott wants to fast-track a pardon for the conv