president himself. it's 45 pages long. again, it's what we call a speaking indictment, purposefully written in terms that the american people that voters across this country can read it and understand the actions being taken by jack smith and his team. we're expecting to hear from jack smith. we've been told about 6:00 eastern time. we'll keep an eye on that camera. in the meantime, as we await jack smith, we have learned at this hour when we expect to see the former president, donald trump, first answer, these criminal charges. i want to bring in katherine faulders for that. a time and place on thursday has now been set. katherine yeah, we know that special counsel jack smith has asked the former president to appear right here at this courthouse thursday at 4 p.m. eastern for an initial appearance to be arraigned appearance to be arraigned on these new charges, these four counts that you mentioned. >> now, this is federal court. there are no cameras allowed in court. it's quite possible that he could remain completely out of view when he comes here. but again, we're told thursday at 4

p.m. eastern, the former president will be here. he's likely to be accompanied by two of his lawyers, those same lawyers who met with special counsel jack smith last week to make the case that he shouldn't be indicted. todd blanch and john lauro, who was said to be leading the legal efforts on january 6th. so thursday, 4 p.m, the former president is expected to be right here in this courthouse. >> katherine faulders with our team here with us today. katherine our thanks to you again. we're keeping our eyes trained on this room the moment jack smith comes before the microphone, there, we'll let you hear what he has to say about this federal criminal indictment . again, much more serious, the most serious federal criminal indictment ever faced by a former american president in this country. again, four counts that include obstructing official proceedings, trying to overturn the 2020 election. depriv ovation of rights, voting rights across this country that every vote be counted and valued in so many words, we're going to bring in john santucci, who has covered donald trump for years. and, john, along the way, what

has donald trump's defense been to this notion that he knew that he had lost the election? >> well, david, i can tell you from speaking to people that have been around the former president over just the last couple of weeks and after news of that target letter, trump was telling people, i never thought i lost the election. i never believed that. and some people, david, in conversations with the former president, i'm told, face to face, actually pushed back on him and said, well, you were told this in real time. you were told that this wasn't true. and the former president maintaining, well, i never believed that. i always believed that i had won. and, david, the biggest reaction i have to tell you, i'm getting in real time from people reading this indictment along with us right now is one person wrote very strikingly, david, i wish he listened to the good people, wish he listened to the guardrails that were around him at the white house. and another person writing, if he listened to the actual lawyers. and as john karl pointed out, it's those unindicted coconspirators

, several of them, which are attorneys that were giving trump this advice about fake electors. and as we've reported here on abc much of the time, at the end of the trump administration, those tense meetings that were playing out in the oval office, the screaming matches that often occurred between people that were white house employees, many of whom were attorneys trying to shoot down these other attorneys that were coming in and around donald trump, pitching him on this idea of fake electors fast forward now, david, to where we are. trump listening to those people engaging in those conversations. clearly has gotten him yet into another indictment. >> david, john, thank you. is that a defense, though, dan, that i never thought i lost? and so what if i listened to the bad actors? if you go off of john santucci's words, there are many who were very close to the president saying, now, i wish he had listened to the good ones. can he come out and say, well, i listened to the wrong ones? >> yeah. i mean, he can come out. it may not be a winning defense, but i think it's if

this actually becomes a legal defense as opposed to a political one, that is exactly the sort of defense that he would he would wage. he would say that i had lawyers telling me that we could challenge on january sixth. i had people in these various states who were eyewitnesses who'd seen things happen. et cetera. the problem for him, i think, will be on some of the statistics that he was providing. right. where was he coming up with the numbers, for example, of 205,000 or whatever, you know, x number of dead people voted. now, my guess is he'll be able to link it back to somebody right. i presume he didn't just pick numbers out of thin air that somebody said to him, well, we think that there could be an argument of up to x thousand numbers of dead people who voted. et cetera. it's a defense. it may not be a winning one because of the number of people who were telling him it's not true. >> and isn't there an expectation when you're the president of the united states that you have access to the right? we're hearing track and we should kill thomas. his

microphone, please, guys. i can hear him getting ready for world news while we're on the air during this special report, which we appreciate from pierre. always working hard but reasonable. again right? >> it can't be unreasonable. meaning that's part of what they're going to look at here is what would it be remote, reasonable for him to believe it. and you hear john santucci saying it's not just that he says he believed it. then he's saying he believes it now to this day. he believes is that that the election was stolen from him. so that's a that's a defense. i'm not saying it's a winning one, but it's a defense. >> we're waiting. jack smith, the special counsel in this case, expected to brief not only reporters in that room, but the nation. he knows the nation is watching and of course, as we have seen from jack smith before, he's fully aware that this is a polarized country. people believe what they believe already when it comes to january sixth and the election, much of that because whether they supported the former president or not, they believed or did not believe what was coming, not only from the president, but, again, this group that surrounded the president during

those crucial weeks from the election, straight through january, as laid out in this 45 page indictment. our chief white house correspondent, mary bruce, sitting here with me as well. first of all, mary, anything from the white house, the white house isn't commenting on the specifics. >> that is no surprise. but they do refer us to the justice department and a state spokesman saying they refer to the justice department, which conducts its investigation independently, and that is something that i suspect you're going to hear jack smith stress once again as well. this white house has gone out of its way in recent weeks to underscore the independence of the judiciary. it is why you are not seeing president biden comment on this. he is well aware how donald trump is trying to spin this, how republicans are arguing that president biden, they claim, is simply trying to persecute his political rival here. and so the president has stressed he hasn't told the justice department what to pursue. he hasn't tried to influence what charges they bring. we should say, though, while joe biden has been silent on these indictments, he has been very outspoken in the past about donald trump and january

sixth, he has accused him of spreading a web of lies about the 2020 election. he has said he valued power over principle, saying that his bruised ego mattered more to him than our democracy and he has been very clear that january sixth and the attack on the capitol is really a major theme of his reelection campaign. right. that's the first clip of video that you see in that reelection video that president biden put out. and, david, we know that the president feels very strongly that those who are responsible for this have to be held accountable. president biden telling you that accountability is necessary no matter where it goes, even if it extends to the former president. >> and we knew exactly what he meant when we asked that question of the president. in the meantime, merrick garland, the attorney general, took this step of naming a special counsel because the former president had announced to the country that he was running for reelection. and that is when merrick garland said this is under way. we have to we have to get as far away from this as possible and naming a special counsel. >> and they thought that that would put some distance right between these and prevent some of these political attacks. that

has not happened. of course, this has now become the centerpiece, the cornerstone of donald trump's reelection campaign. in fact, he's already fundraising off of the news that we learned just moments ago. and we have seen we know from the polling the fact that none of these indictments, none of these charges so far have made a dent in donald trump support. in fact, quite the opposite. he has a commanding, crushing lead in the polls. and it is just astounding when you take a step back and you think about the fact that the overwhelming frontrunner for the republican nomination right now is someone who today is being accused of using his power to try and overturn turn the 2020 election, even though he knew allegedly that he had lost. >> let's just dive into this a bit further. as we await jack smith, we're joined on the phone now by our reporter out on the campaign trail, rachel scott, who's been covering this for many months as well. and as you heard mary allude to here moments ago, rachel. donald trump has not only campaigned off of the first federal criminal indicted, but now the second one as we sit here today, arguably be much more serious

than even the first. he has campaigned off of it and he has built his lead and a much more commanding lead than just several weeks back on the republican side, the closest candidate behind him, ron desantis, now trailing in many cases by up to 40 points or so. >> david, make no mistake about it, trump's legal defense is now the cornerstone of his campaign . i was just out on the campaign trail with him in iowa and pennsylvania. he was talking about railing against these indictments on the campaign trail to voters. and his rivals are hesitant to go after him. you mentioned florida governor ron desantis. he's his biggest challenger so far. i asked him a few weeks ago if the former president bears any responsibility for what happened on january 6th. he said that trump could have acted more forcefully, that day. but he also believes that the justice department is being weaponized even trump's own former vice president, mike pence, who called his actions reckless. on january 6th, he told you that he felt like the former president

not only put his life in danger, but his family's life in danger. he said that he hoped that trump would not be indicted again. so what we are seeing out on the campaign trail is all of these candidates continue to walk a very fine line when it comes to the former president, because there's a clear concern here that they're going to turn away the very voters that they need in order to win the republican nomination. david >> rachel scott with us here. rachel, thank you. on this. the gulf now between donald trump and all of the other republican candidates is leading ron desantis by about 37 points on the republican side. and again, just today, the new york times siena poll that looked at the entire general election matchup, if it were held today between donald trump and joe biden, a dead heat in this country, 4343. obviously with full knowledge of the first federal criminal indictment. but these numbers obviously don't take into account the news as it's unfolding here today. and also a big part of this story in the new york times reporting today are the number of people who are disinterest in both candidates and who did not want to say they

would really vote for either one. a deep dive goes into their feelings about both of these candidates and how strongly they feel. but again, right now, in this country, as you see, this is not jack smith. we've been given a two minute warning, which is something they often do. they check the microphone and let reporters know. let's bring in aaron katersky really quickly who's poring through the indictment as well. this is a relationship that we have reported on in great detail here on world news tonight that between the former president and mike pence. and there's a point in the indictment where where it's clear that the former president has told mike pence, your two honest. >> it's a stunning moment when the former president trump called the vice president and berated him. david, the indictmentay because he lened that pence had opposed a lawsuit seeking a judicial decision,hat at the certification, the vice president had the authority to reject it. the what was going on on ocapitol hill. pence, we know, has said he did not have that authority, disagreed with

with president trump, was berated for it. the special counsel says trump telling him you're too honest. and while this is not called out for a specific criminal charge, that it is even part of the whole tally of criminal charges is really quite stunning. and of course, we know the calls that echoed here on capitol hill on january 6th hang mike pence and aaron katersky live in washington for us, our investigative reporter. >> aaron, thank you. we do have breaking news coming in right now as we await jack smith, the special counsel will abc news has just learned that former president trump's case has been assigned now to d.c. district judge tanya shuckton. according to the court docket, shuckton is an appointee of former president obama. she has previously been profiled for handing out some of the most severe sentence his for rioters involved in the january 6th assault on the capitol. and she also previously rejected an effort by donald trump to try to block the release of documents to the house committee investigating the january 6th capitol riot. this is

interesting, and i had asked dan before we came on the air today how judges are selected. we know it's at random. in some cases as they're selected by a wheel. but this we believe there's some sort of automated system that selects these judges. correct >> so all of the judges in the d.c. circuit and i think there are about 13 full time and then there are a bunch who are seniors. senior judges. yeah. can go into the effectively what's a random wheel and they get picked randomly in terms of who the judge becomes. we talked about this before there are four of the 13 were nominated by republicans, nine nominated by democrats. but the judge's role here becomes critical in timing. >> we'll talk more about the judge in just a moment. first, jack smith, the special counsel in this case. this is the second time now coming before the american people. let's listen. >> good evening. today say an indictment was unsealed charging donald j. trump with conspiring to defraud the united states,

conspiring to disenfranchize voters and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. the indictment was issued by a grand jury of citizens here in the district of columbia, and it sets forth the crimes charged in detail. i encourage everyone to read it in full. the attack on our nation's capitol on january sixth, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of american democracy. it's described in the indictment that it was fueled by lies, lies by the defendant. it targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the us government and the nation's process of collecting counting and certifying the results of the presidential election. the men and women of law enforcement who defended the us capitol on january 6th are heroes. they are patriots and they are the very best of us.

they did not just defend a building or the people sheltering in it. they put their lives on the line to defend who we are as a country and as a people. they defended the very institutions and principles that define the united states. since the attack on our capitol, the department of justice has remained committed to ensuring accountability for those criminally responsible for what happened that day. this case is brought consistent with that commitment and our investigation of other individuals continues in this case, my office will seek a speedy trial so that our evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens in the meantime, i must emphasize that the indictment is only an allegation an and that the defendant must be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. i would like to

thank the members of the federal bureau of investigation who are working on this investigation with my office as well as the many career pro prosecutors and law enforcement agents from around the country who have worked on previous january 6th, investigate actions these women and men are public servants of the very highest order, and it is a privilege to work alongside them. thank you. why didn't you charge any of the other coconspirators to keep the microphone open there for questions from reporters, though not a surprise that jack smith is not answering any of those questions as he leaves the podium. >> he was very short in addressing the american people again, inviting american voters across this country to read this 45 page indictment as he did last time. he said the defendant must be presumed innocent until proven guilty, but he did start by saying this was a defendant who was fueled by lies and he

spread those lies across the nation. it heavily affected this nation's process for collecting and counting votes in america. he talked about the men and women who were defending the capitol on january 6th. he called them heroes, in his words . he said, we will seek a speedy trial with a fair jury. and that brings up the question dan abrams, for those watching at home, how this could potentially and none of us really know the full answer to this affect the presidential election on its way. but is there a is there a scenario, though, where both of these cases are tried and finished before the election? >> there's a scenario? absolutely. i think it's unlikely. but there's a scenario. look, in a typical case, i would tell you what you're talking about. november of 2024, and you're asking me, can they finish the case before then? the answer would be absolutely. of course they can. when you're talking about this case, for example, in the documents case, it's already been pushed back to may of 2024. i expect that that one will get

delayed again for certain. now, this judge is not a judge who is going to be necessarily as sympathetic to some of the arguments as aileen cannon may have been. this is a district that tends to move these kinds of cases certainly more quickly than that. but there will be arguments by the trump team to try to delay this, to try to push it back as much as possible. you're going to hear and you just heard jack smith say he's going to pursue a speedy trial, but that's really a right that belongs to the defendant, not the prosecutor. it's the defendant's right to a speedy trial. so it's the defendant that tends to have a lot of power and control over how fast a case moves. but this is where the judge becomes critical. yes there are going to be questions of admissibility, of evidence, etcetera. but in a case where this political campaign and the legal case intersect, the most important power, this judge is going to have is does the trial happen before the election or not? and we'll just have to see what happens with that.

>> and it's not just this judge. we looked into this before we came on the air as well. just about every judge, if not every judge in the district, has presided over one of these. january 6th related trials. >> all right. and even the trump appointed judges have not been soft on the january 6th rioters. i mean, best case scenario, there was one judge who dismissed a particular charge, actually one of the charges that's charged here. but it's different because in that case, the question was, did the person have corrupt motive, meaning were they doing it knowing that what they were doing was illegal and wrong? well here the whole the whole document is an explanation of why donald trump knew what he was doing was corrupt and wrong. so even if there's a higher standard established for one of these crimes, if you believe donald trump is guilty, they've laid out an explanation for why that issue wouldn't apply. so my broader point is trump judges, obama judges, bush judges.

whatever the case may be, these are still going to be some difficult legal arguments for the trump team to win. >> and many of these judges have handed down very serious sentences for people related to january sixth. i want to bring in asha rangappa, law professor for yale law school, former special agent, new york fbi. and, asha, one of the questions is from many people in this country for so long has been in watching all of these january 6th cases as they played out in washington, d.c, whether or not the people at the very top would be prosecuted as well. and now not only do we have this case, we know it will play out in washington and in front of a judge who has presided over some of these very cases before. >> yes, well, three of the counts here are concerned secrecy charges and a conspiracy is an agreement to commit a crime. so what jack smith has been able to do is to pierce this cone of silence that donald trump has always been able to

create around him, where he's able to have intermediaries, lawyers, people that he has conversations with, and then will, you know, do much of the work he's been able to pierce that inner circle. and we have evidence in this indictment of actual conversations, actual communications that really connect trump to that agreement, to use as deceptive means to block this election. that's pretty extraordinary. i also think that this indictment is significant in that jack smith was able to bring in depictions, evidence of the violence that unfolded on january 6th. this is a spectacle that everyone remembers from watching it unfold on television and this was a very tricky area. you mentioned that he wasn't charged with insurrection an that would have encountered a lot of first amendment issues because it would have been based on trump's speech. but it he was able to bring this in by using the charge of deprivation of rights,

that what trump was trying to do is prevent these people from getting their votes counted, using intimidation and violence . so this is a very clever charges and straightforward charges that will ideally be streamlined, since he's only named donald trump as of right now as the defendant. >> asha rangappa with us here. asha, thank you for your perspective, as always. and she makes a very good point about avoiding insurrection charges or charges connected to that because of constitutional defense, of free speech in this country john. but jack smith does talk about what donald trump was doing as this was playing out in the capitol. and instead of trying to halt it, allowing it to proceed. >> if you remember when he was impeached on this, he was impeached for inciting the riot. that's not what's going on here. but jack smith makes the allegation that trump tried to exploit the riot to achieve his overall goal, which is disrupting the proceeding to certify the election. he says directly. on the evening of january 6th, the defendant and

coconspirator one attempted to exploit the violence and chaos at the capitol by calling lawmakers to convince them, based on knowingly false claims of election fraud, fraud to delay the certification. and this is pretty amazing, he calls two senators directly. he coconspirator number one calls six members of congress. >> jon karl with us. we know that john santucci, our reporter who has covered trump for many years, has now talked to the former president. john, what's his reaction at this hour? >> david, i just hung up the phone with former president trump. he seemed rather relaxed . david said that he is read through the indictments that he's been on the phone. david, the words he used in speaking to me, he said it's pile on from special counsel jack smith. more charges. i asked him. david did you expect this? were you prepared for this? and he said again, it's election interference. it's another effort by the democrats. this is donald trump. david, to abc news. another effort by the democrats to attack the 2024

election. and he said, david, that it's just going to keep going on and i questioned him on that and i said, what does that mean? mr. president? and he said, just more charges, more charges. he then maintained, david, that he believes he is leading in the polls and that he is to again, this is former president trump. he believes that he will defeat joe biden. i then said, what's your overall word for everything that has been the last couple months with these indictments, david? donald trump telling me ridiculous. >> i do want to ask you, john, though, because you were on the air with us just about a week ago when the target letter was made public. and at the time, our team was reporting that donald trump's legal team was somewhat surprised by that target letter, that they thought that perhaps they would be able to avoid this particular federal criminal indictment, that the classified documents case would move forward, but that this was one that they thought perhaps they would get by. >> yeah, david and i had heard that in real time, too. and donald trump, i'm told at that time, that's two sundays ago, david was stunned by it. and at

this rate, david, i think donald trump, from what i hear and from just speaking to him right now, his voice sounded like someone almost resigned to it. i've spoken to the former president. and as you know, david, many times over nearly ten years of covering him now, he didn't sound angry, didn't wipe the phone and answered when we just spoke a moment ago. but again, david, i think that the two words that just struck me is in speaking to him just now, pile on. i think just from talking to aides around him and now speaking to the former president himself, it just seems like in donald trump's mind, this was just another day. >> and that will be part of the political message, surely in moving forward. one more question for you, john, and it's on a related note, because he's been on obviously campaign. he's been on the trail these last couple of days answering questions was on one radio show, was actually asked if going forward, you get these indictments and you got a jury in d.c. this is the questioner

asking you get convicted in sentence. what does that stop your campaign for president if you're sentenced? the host asked him. he replied, not at all. there's nothing in the constitution that says it could stop me. not at all. yeah >> and david, i think right there in his response to me when i just hung up with him, he seemed full steam ahead, maintaining again, talking about the polls, saying we're going to keep on going forward. and as rachel scott noted with you earlier, david. donald trump out on the campaign trail this weekend, again hammering that fact. he's going to keep charging ahead, keep moving forward. and look, we don't even have to take donald trump's words for it. you mentioned earlier that new york times siena poll, it just came out in the last couple days. he is doing well at the moment, david, but obviously another indictment is something that donald trump and his aides don't take lightly . >> well, and they shouldn't. it's an extra ordinary moment in american history and we and we shouldn't gloss over it for sure. john santucci, our thanks to you. i want to bring in our chief global affairs

correspondent, martha raddatz, who was there at the capitol on january sixth. and, martha, you could hear really in jack smith's voice there as he presented his short statement to the american people, the weight of this, though, trying to distance himself from the politics of it all, say presumed innocent until proven guilty, but asked the american people to read this and to remember. january 6th and saying that the men and women in law enforcement were heroes that day. >> and indeed they were. and what the american people also need to think about is the effect that day had on them. you've talked to them before, david, and interviewed them and the wounds, the injuries, the looking back on that day, they will never be the same. um, and that day for me up on the hill and talking to people who said they were there because donald trump was outed them to quote stop the steal that was the whole idea of the speech that donald trump gave that day. it

was a rally. he told people to go go to capitol hill and his closing words again, if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. we're going to try and give the republicans the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country at the time, the secret service knew there were armed men in the crowd. i interviewed people in tactical gear and i saw them communicate with one another on capitol hill. it's a day we should all remember, david. >> martha raddatz talking about that day. jack smith talking about it as well moments ago, saying that the chaos around this country involving martha, thank you, involving the election and those weeks leading up to january 6th was fueled by lies from the defendant. and of course, the defendant he was speaking of was former president donald trump, who at this hour, you're watching abc news live coverage has been charged with four counts. this is the second federal criminal indictment of the former president conspiracy

to defraud the us, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy against, writes pierre thomas, our chief justice correspondent. >> it again, this case is one that the justice department will probably consider. one of the biggest and most important cases in its history, indicting a former sitting president who's now running for office is not something that they ran to do. the attorney general was very methodical in the approach, but this special counsel again, david, the most aggressive prosecutor i've seen in 20 years of covering the justice department and again, jack smith saying he invites the american people to read this 45 page indictment. >> a former american president now charged edged with obstruction and conspiracy to defraud the us and again, conspiracy against rights. and of course, those rights allude to votes, votes in this country being counted in the way they

were intended. for many of you here in the east world, news tonight begins in just about five seconds. i'm david muir. i'll see >> announcer: from abc news world headquarters in new york, this is "world news tonight" with david muir. good evening and it's great to have you with us here on a tuesday night. we do begin with this major development in the special counsel's investigation of former president donald trump. a federal grand jury has now criminally indicted the former president out of the special counsel's investigation into his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the 45-page indictment begins by saying the former president lost the 2020 election, knew he lost and then for months spread lies that there