your local news is next except on the west coast. remember those two games tonight. we'll see you on espn2 and espn. president donald trump, the prestigious macarthur foundation genius grant, was awarded today. and a bay area gynecologist is on the list for her work studying abortion access. but

first, a house divided cannot stand. yet the republican party is a house divided. a day after house speaker kevin mccarthy's ouster, what comes next? you are watching getting answers. i'm kristin zee. let's begin with the fallout from yesterday's dramatic vote by right wing republicans to oust their party leader for working with democrats to keep the government running. the office of speaker of the house of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. today the jostling has begun amongst republicans to coalesce around a new leader. but that may be easier said than done. joining us live now with his perspective, stanford hoover institution, fellow republican strategist and former gop nominee for california state controller lon chen. lonnie, thanks for joining us. good to see you. >> great to be with you. thank you. kristin, what happened yesterday? >> did you ever think you would see that day come? >> well, it was certainly unexpected, but i don't think it

should be surprising, you know, when the rules were changed back , you may recall when speaker mccarthy was first elected, the rules were changed that essentially made it much easier for a insert urgent force. and it didn't even take that many people, but an insurgent force to essentially vote him out of office. and we saw that in the form of matt gaetz and seven of his compatriot eights, who made the decision to vote. kevin mccarthy out. and i think that speaker mccarthy, a former speaker mccarthy, probably looks back at that deal maybe with with some modicum of regret. but the reality is that what those republicans voted for was chaos. they didn't vote for conservative values, as they argued they did. they didn't vote to uphold conservative promises. they essentially voted for chaos. and that's what we're going to have for some period of time until the new speaker is elected. >> yeah. can you explain that chaos a little bit more? because what happens now? what happens now with the house in limbo with no leader?

>> well, as so long as there is a interim speaker of the house as we have in patrick mchenry of north carolina, the house cannot conduct business. the house, in essence, cannot do essentially any kind of legislative business until a new speaker is selected . republicans are going to have to work out who that person will be, who is going to be able to garner enough support to be elected speaker. some suggest that steve scalise, the majority leader from louisiana, you may recall that congressman scalise was actually shot at a practice for a congressional baseball game several years ago. he's also currently battling blood cancer, but he's very popular with with the republican conference in the house. it could be him. it could be jim jordan, the chair of the house judiciary committee, somebody who is seen as as contrary herschel because of his current role, for example, in the biden impeachment hearings. but both of those gentlemen command a

significant amount of respect within the republican conference in the house and so i wouldn't be surprised to see those two names be the front runners to potentially be elected speaker when that vote happens next week. yes scalise is popular, as you said, but given his cancer battle, do you think one, you know, the members would still support him? >> and two, if that's going to keep him from being able to do the job? >> yeah. >> i mean, he's been quite energetic in his recent appearances. i know he's been fighting hard and doing everything he can, but obviously it's got to be physically taxing . it's got to be a challenge. and i think part of the process over the next couple of days here is going to be for congressman scalise and for republican is to figure out if that's the right fit, if he's the right person for the job or not. and only time will tell. i think now both of those two compared to mccarthy, seem to be a little more to the right. >> if you will. do you think they would have what it takes to keep all the other republicans but get some of the quote unquote insurgents, as in gates and company, because they need

that $218. >> yeah, here's the problem, kristen is even if one of them is able to command a majority, let's say next week, the same rules that ousted kevin mccarthy are rules that would apply to whoever the next republican speaker is. of course, unless those rules get changed and if that's the case, it is going to continue to be very difficult for any republican to operate in that speaker's role in a way that would make them effective, not just with respect to governing, which is something that kevin mccarthy ultimately chose to do. he chose to govern and cut that deal with democrats in order to keep the government open. so it's a question of will the next republican, a, be able to actually govern and, b, be able to satisfy the conservative insurgents like gates and others? or is the next speaker, whether it's scalise or jim jordan, going to fall prey to that rule that essentially allows a single member to move a motion to vacate an. and that's what happened with kevin

mccarthy. and so hard to say, kristen. i think whether in fact this will be an effective speakership, whoever comes next. but first things first. republicans have to figure out who the person is, right? >> right. and as you said, they got to do it quickly because otherwise, if they can't do the business of the nation, they can't get that. the stopgap bill right. only goes till mid november. otherwise government shuts down again. they got to get it done. so a lot is at stake. but is there a backlash at all within the republican party against gates and the seven others for ousting mccarthy? oh absolutely. >> there's a there's a ton of backlash, particularly against matt gates. i mean, i've heard more invective hurled at him by republican members than even some directed at democrats. i mean, it's really been the case that a lot of republicans, some have argued that he should be expelled and some have argued that that he should be punished and sanctioned somehow in terms of access to campaign funds. i mean, there's all sorts of different things out there. and there's no question matt gates deserves every bit of that

criticism because he essentially voted, as i said earlier, he voted for chaos. he didn't have a plan b, it wasn't like he wanted to be speaker. so this was just chaos. >> look, trump could have rallied the renegades and bailed mccarthy out. he did not. mccarthy is someone who stood with him through the impeachment and the insurrection aftermath. what does that say about trump? >> well, former president trump's about former president trump. i mean, he is about whatever he needs to do for himself. i don't think that loyalty is a particularly apt word when one thinks about former president donald trump. i mean, he's not a particularly loyal guy. so the fact that speaker mccarthy stood with him is relatively meaningless. probably to him. so you know, he did comment on the stupidity of republic fans fighting amongst themselves, but it's not like you're right. it's not like he came in and said to people, hey, listen, we need to keep mccarthy around. so it's this whole incident, quite frankly, i think speaks to just how challenging it is to govern, how challenging

it is to serve in these leadership roles right now. and unfortunately for kevin mccarthy , he had to find that out firsthand. >> yeah, because of how partizan things are. and look, i know when you ran your campaign for state comptroller, you talked about the fact that you do not support former president trump, but i want to look ahead in your strategist role when you look ahead at the field, president trump, former president trump is leading the republican field right now for next year. and i wonder, you know, do you think there is someone out there who could perceivably take this away from trump and who could unite, write our country more than divide it right now, it's hard to see who that alternative republican would be. >> you know, for a while it looked like people were coalescing behind governor ron desantis of florida. that didn't work out then. people talked about senator tim scott from south carolina. then in his first debate performance, he some argued he was a little underwhelming. and so people have now turned to nikki haley, the former governor of south carolina and former un ambassador, as somebody who can unite the tribe. so to speak. i

don't know whether anybody's going to be capable of upending donald trump. i mean, he's got a significant lead in the polls within california. he's proven to be very popular. he spoke at the republican party convention in anaheim last weekend and attracted almost 2000 people. so he is the prohibitive frontrunner. but it's also the case that nobody's actually cast a vote yet. so we're all talking about hypotheticals until the votes begin to be cast in early january. and then we'll see we'll see where it goes. but what what does have to happen, kristen, is if there is going to be an alternative, there needs to be coalescence behind one candidate sooner rather than later. and the longer that you have five, six, seven candidates in this game, the harder and harder it's going to be to coalesce behind someone and knock off former president trump at this moment, what does the republican party stand for, you think? >> well, it's a great question because there i think, you know, for a while you had the republican party standing for lower taxes and less regulation

action. >> and, you know, essentially believing that by jumpstarting and promoting growth and business, you would help promote people and people's ultimate bottom lines. and that view is being called into question. it used to be the case that republicans stood for a strong national defense, and that would have meant funding for ukraine. that has come into question when it used to be the case that republican eyes weren't particularly interested in supporting and backing labor unions. and now you have some group of republicans that is talking about about being more supportive of that constituency. so a lot of what we thought was traditional republican politics has disappeared. it's been replaced by some disagreements within the party. now, some of that's healthy. i think it's healthy to have policy disagreements, but some of it to me seems to be dominated by the populist sentiment that has overtaken our politics in too many cases. and i think that that's probably a bad thing in terms of defining what the republican party can and should

be for, well, an ongoing conversation. >> but thank you for your insight. really appreciate it. lonnie chen, great to be with you. support meantime, is growing in the us for a third political party, not amongst everybody, of course, but could it be a spoiler in 2024? in the presidential election? ahead, we'll talk with third way, a public policy think tank, about that

instead he will run as an independent candidate, though the son of the late senator robert f kennedy and nephew of the late president john f kennedy, comes from a democratic dynasty. the party now sees him

as a potential spoiler who could hand the election to former president trump. some have the same criticism for any third party, including the no labels party, which has been getting some attention. joining us live now to take a look at the complications of a third party is kate de gruyter, senior director of communications for the left of center think tank third way. kate, thanks for your time. pleasure. so for our viewers who are not familiar with no labels, just real quick, it's a group headed by former democratic senator turned independent joe lieberman. it's laying the groundwork for a possible moderate unity ticket if it doesn't like the two major party's nominees, it's qualified for the ballot in 11 states. now, why do you say it is also a threat to democracy? >> we know that the 2024 election is going to be determined by a very small number of voters, and third parties pose a particular unique risk of dividing the anti-trump coalition and clearing his path to victory. we've seen that third party voters were critical

part of the biden coalition in 2020. they they backed him by a 30 point margin over their 2016 performance. and that was a critical part of how he pulled out a win in 2020. >> okay. >> even if that is the case, write a new gallup poll out today shows 53% of americans agree that a third party is needed to satisfy what they're current to. how do you address those? 53% of americans polled? >> you know, we've seen americans are sort of grumpy about their choices going back over many years. and actually, the reality is that there have been remarks, similar levels of dissatisfaction with the major party candidates going back as far as obama and mccain and even back into 1980. it's interesting that actually in 1992, 59% of voters said that they would be open to a third party candidate. and that is the year that ross perot ran on the ballot as a third party candidate. he didn't get 59% of the vote. he got 19. it was a 40 point drop from that

high. and notably, he didn't get a single electoral vote. so openness to a third party can sometimes signal dissatisfaction in general, but it doesn't necessarily translate into to a clear indicator of what folks are going to do on election day. >> i just want to understand if your argument is sort of about the current person like keeping trump out or more about the structure of our democracy overall. right. you mentioned 1992. you mentioned ross perot, and perot did have the effect of propelling bill clinton into office. right. so is it about the party or keeping a party out or is it do you feel like no 33rd party candidates should ever exist in the us? well i think what we would say is the argument that no labels in particular is making and they're the best funded of the potential third party candidates that we might see in 2024 is that they're going to win the election outright. >> and we have just never seen any data to suggest that that's remotely possible. there are zero polls that show them winning nationally or even a

single state. and so the likelihood that they can achieve the objective that they have laid out is extraordinarily low . >> let's just go ahead and show that you supplied a map to try to make that point. and i know our producers have it ready to go. so what what help me understand what i'm looking at here in terms of the yellow and the unity stretched state. what is that? >> yeah, the this map was released by no labels. it's available on their website publicly. and it purports to show their path to victory. all of the yellow states that you see are ones that they claim that they might be able to win. it is unlike any map that any network has shown in any election in american history, because we have never seen third party candidates win enough states to well, actually in 55 years, they haven't had a single state that they won the last person to win a single state was george wallace. and if you add up all of the third party candidates in the last century together, including somebody carved into mount rushmore, they

wouldn't have enough electoral votes to win a single election. so the likelihood that they can achieve their stated objective is incredibly low. we know that donald trump has a very strong base of support. we have seen that in spite of incredibly detailed and numerous allegations of misconduct that he is remarkably popular within that base. but did riding the majority that the biden and democratic coalition was able to gather is the way that he is likely to achieve a victory in 2024. and that's the concern. >> look, i you know, does this reassure you at all of your worries that no labels has promised that one, they would only actually run the ticket if they don't like the two nominees, but two, that if it looks like they're going to play the spoiler, if it looks like they're not going to be able to win outright, that they will withdraw or they have said that right? >> they have. and yet they can't identify by a single metric that would inform that decision. and

so i think that's where a lot of the anxiety is coming from, because they are putting out that, you know, the two parties are equally extreme. and i think what we're seeing in the news this week is evidence that that's just not true. to suggest that president biden and president trump are equally extreme. you know, flies in the face of the that shows that we are watching on television where one is facing upwards of 90 felony counts and a chaotic party. and, you know, we are a center left think tank. we know that winning the majority of the american people is essential to governing and to winning for the democratic coalition. and so ensuring that that folks are competing for that middle of the road is vitally important. and we think that the party needs to do that in order to win. >> all right, kate, i'm going to take a short break right here, but i'm going to ask you to hang on. depending on the situation with our third guest, we may ask you to come back with us. so

don't go away,

just fellowships from the john d and catherine t macarthur foundation, known as genius grants. we'll try to get that guest with us in just a little bit. she is going to connect with us. but in the meantime, can we bring back our previous guest from our previous blog? kate de gruyter, who we were talking with about the no labels party and its potential impact. she is from third way. please go ahead. just bring up the guest who is available to us right now so i can continue the conversation on with one of our guests here today. hi, kate. nice to have you back. thank you for tap dancing with us as we juggle some technical issues is. but i'm glad we're able to continue our conversation. and i wanted to ask you. right,

obviously, we have a form of government, right. that doesn't really allow for what parliamentary democracies allow, which because people look around and go third party, hey, i see it working in canada. i see it working in the u.k, i see it working in germany, in new zealand. lots of countries. explain to people all why a third party here would be very different from a third party in those other very vibrant democracies. >> well, i would suggest that building up a strong base and building from the bottom up is generally how we've seen political parties succeed. what's unique in this case is that no labels is a dark money organization. they are a national entity and they are running as a political party without following any of the rules of traditional political parties. so that means that right now they're able to accept unlimited contributions from anonymous donors and ducking a lot of the disclosure rules that

we require of political parties in the united states. i think that begs a lot of questions from voters about what are the things that they are truly fighting for and who are they representing and so i think, you know, there's obviously a path forward to building up the kind of grassroots support that might make a third party successful in the end. what's interesting actually, is that ross perot, who is one of the third party candidates, americans, probably know well, and that no labels points to actually had so much grassroots support that his supporters got him on the ballot out in i think, about 42 of the states. he only had to hire folks to help him get on the ballot in about eight states. that's a totally different scenario than what we're seeing right now, where you've got a level of public support. and even with that, the level of difficulty in achieving his objective of winning is very high. as i mentioned, he didn't get a single electoral vote. so the challenge is quite high. but i think the goal of trying to make sure that american voices

are heard in the political process is an important one. and there are a lot of good reforms to be done. ranked choice voting , opening primaries to ensure that it's not just a small minority of voices choosing the nominees eacparty, but that the nominees being chosen are reflective of the broader public. >> i have heard some of those points made by the forward party. i know you're not for the no labels party. how do you feel about the platform of the forward party? >> well, you know, they are not running a national ticket, so that gives them the space to do some of the organizing. and we'll see what sort of an impact they might have down ballot. but i think there are a lot of questions about what the ramifications are of starting a national party without a full party infrastructure in place. we're already seeing candidates sign up to run on the no labels party ballot, and that could happen in races down ballot. and they might have very little control in some states over who chooses to run on their ticket. so it does kind of open pandora's box. yes. >> okay. so do you think it

doesn't make a difference who is drafted to be the nominee for the no labels party? can you see? i mean, i know the most often talked about names are former ohio governor john kasich or perhaps west virginia senator joe manchin. but is there anyone that you think would have the effect that they could win outright? perhaps the popular media figure i'm not saying arnold schwarzenegger is thinking about it at all, but i'm just throwing out names of someone that could potentially actually win outright and get support from those who are dissatisfied with both parties nominees. >> it's pretty hard to imagine who that person would be at this moment if they could recruit michelle obama to win, then i think they'd have a real fighting chance. but i think the odds of that happening are quite low and so i think that folks that they are approaching are taking a really hard look at it because the likelihood is not that they're going to go down in history as the first person to win, but that they're likely to be seen as jill stein 2.0 and somebody who helped divide the pro-democracy coalition that

democrats need to keep trump away from a second term. and i think that there's a lot of folks that would be really uneasy about being part of that. >> so if i hear you correctly, you're you're good with the grass roots or slow nurture of a party that rises up and then eventually has enough supporters, if you will, or people to become an actual viable party. i mean, we don't have power sharing in this country. so i just wonder, you know, what needs to happen for there to truly be a good third choice that's viable for the people of this country? >> well, i think options like ranked choice voting, which we're seeing some places start to implement, are one of the approaches to try and get there because it requires somebody to have support and it eliminates the idea that you're throwing your vote away. right. because you have the opportunity to choose a second place. >> that's right. kate. i'm sorry. we're finally out of time. this time for real. i do appreciate this conversation with you. thanks so much. we'll take a short break and be right

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tonight, in new york city, the manhunt at this hour. police say the chilling, unprovoked murderered at a bus stop. also tonight, the chaos on the hill. the battle now for speaker of the house. the first candidates coming forward. first tonight, police searching in new york for that suspect wanted for what appears to be a random attack at that bus stop. surveillance showing the victim, a young man, stabbed to death, stabbed in the heart in front of his girlfriend. what the suspected attacker was heard yelling. the