today on getting answers. one of the most influential historic and political figures of the 20th century has passed away. the legacy of henry kissinger jr. and as cities rethink bike lanes, one that's been promoted as a model in san francisco is being blamed by some for the loss of business on valencia

street. but first, it's a political debate being billed as a culture war showdown town. gavin newsom versus ron desantis. two governors, two ideologies, one telling prime time showdown tonight. you're watching getting answers. i'm kristen sze. thanks for joining us. it is attracting outsized attention. tonight's long awaited political jousting match between california's gavin newsom and florida's ron desantis. desantis is running for president next year, though his star is fading, while newsom is not so why all the hoopla? joining us live now to break it all down is abc seven news political insider phil matier. so phil, what is going on here? why are they doing this? well, they're doing each one has its own reasons and one of them is ron desantis is running for president, but he's not exactly leading the pack. >> donald trump is, as a matter of fact, he's neck and neck with former south carolina governor nikki haley for the second place

spot and some people say it's fading. gavin newsom, he is sort of becoming the democratic stalwart out there and he's raising his national profile and he wants to be in there fighting for joe biden. so we have somebody on the rise and somebody who's trying to stay in the in the in the running and each one is hoping to benefit from this on fox news tonight in an unprecedented sort of, as you said, cultural showdown between red and blue. >> yep. before we get into what you expect them to say tonight and their political futures, the two of them, let's just listen to what newsom has said about florida and what desantis has said about california in the past year, even targeting san francisco. >> so you look around, the city is not vibrant anymore. it's really collapsed because years of leftist policies and these policies have caused people to flee this area. freedom is under attack in your state. >> a republican leaders there banning books, making it harder

to vote, restricting speech in classrooms, even criminalizing women and doctors. >> all right. again remember, these guys are not going head to head in a contest right now, as you might think from those ads. but what is it that they're doing there? >> what they're doing is setting up well, first of all, ron desantis is running was running against gavin newsom as a way to try to propel himself up the republican ladder. and san francisco is an easy target. it's a blue city and it has a lot of the problems that everyone points to. and so it's a natural ground and it's in gavin's backyard at the same time. newsom has been spent a year or more attacking texas and florida, being red and behind the times on transgender issues, on abortion issues and other issues like that cultural issues. so, you know, they are it's sort of two extremes. they're both states are have their stats that they can look at and we can you know, we can

rehash everything from covid and mask mandates to crime statistics to school standings to taxes. that's what they were trying to do, sort of build this as. but i was talking with some of newsom's folks that were down in atlanta tonight, and they say as far as the structure goes, it could go any way. it's a crapshoot that they don't have an agreed to format. and it's going to be interesting if it moves off florida versus california and starts going into the national arena and starts raising questions about things like the us and gaza, us and china, the us and the ukraine, those are areas where gavin newsom might find himself, you know, trying to slalom between even elements of his own party. so that's where it could get interesting tonight, we'll have the california versus florida. but how these guys view the national and international stage. that's where it could get interesting. >> yeah. and it is also interesting to me, you said

there's no agreed upon format. so it was like they could actually literally just argue the whole night if they wanted to. >> let's. yes. and for the sake of television, you might want them to argue the whole night because otherwise it's like a pretty bad civics debate. uh- yes. the only thing they did agree to were that there wasn't going to be an audience there because the newsom people didn't want it to be a gop rally. you know, they didn't want it to be some, you know, fox news, everybody cheering ron desantis. so they've got that out of their . the interesting thing is, you know, i was asking him and i said, why are you doing this? why go on fox? why do that? and i was told that, you know, that there is a healthy percentage of democrats and independents that actually watch fox news. and that's an audience that gavin newsom is going to be reaching for, too. he's not going to convert any of the republican hardcore, but he's reaching for that other to show. i can on and i am reasonable and show a side of him and let's face another thing. when it comes to showmanship, it's tough to beat

a bigger ham than gavin newsom. and this is a stage and he loves the stage. >> oh yeah, i mean, that's sort of like taking a page out of pete buttigieg's playbook as well, right? he he loves going on fox and you know, he loves going at it with the interviewers there. so we'll see what this does for newsom. but i mean, do you expect them to kind of like defend each other and how they've handled their state or do you think it's really going to turn into more of a free for all and really talk more about bite in? i mean, do you think biden may actually be not on stage but talked about a whole lot? right. >> well, you know, it depends on on how they get to roll it. i mean, gavin newsom was hoping that it's a free form thing and he certainly wants to bring up joe biden, who he considers to be the answer for the nation's problems. so he might invite that. i have to say, you know, kristin, it's interesting. in the months and this shows how the world changes and politics changes in the months since the debate was agreed to. remember, back then, the hot issues were covid, covid mandate, daetz book banning transgender and choice.

those were the top issues. uh- now we're into gaza. we're into the ukraine. we're into china. whole different spectrum there is capturing america's attention. but the one thing that is really capturing america's attention or as polls show, is the whole question of age of the top candidates on both sides of these of the national debate, whether it's joe biden or donald trump. and that is sort of so this is a debate about something that might not necessarily be material for the 2024 presidential election unless, of course, something changes. and trump bows out or joe biden buys out. in that case, gavin newsom has made himself the lead candidate for the democrats. hey, along with kamala harris. and that could be an interesting page. but he's the one doing the debate tonight. >> yeah, i mean, and that is the undercurrent under this whole thing, isn't it? like, hey, i'm not out there on the ticket for 2024, but you know, who knows what's going to happen? and then, of course. >> exactly. and if there's one thing we know the last eight,

ten years have shown us is that you never know. >> so let me ask you, though. >> i never know what's coming around. >> that is true. but let me ask you, you just mentioned harris, right? vp harris of course. now, along with newsom, kind of the most well known high profile democrats when we look to 2028, who else who are some of the other names? who is in that democratic top echelon? there >> we don't have we have governors that you couldn't name and it would be a trivia question to try to go into it. those are two people that are up there in the star areas. you know, we had senator manchin from west virginia, but he's bowing out and he might be in there as a third party person. uh, it's a it's a it's an interesting bench. we'll see what happens. but right now, like you said, everybody is looking at at at the primaries on the republican side. and i was going to say, you know, if they were really looking to get eyeballs tonight, i would have said, ron desantis, maybe you should step back and let's bring in nikki haley. let's see, gavin newsom against nikki haley, see how that works. i was just going

to be interested in that one. >> i think you're on to something there in terms of ratings, too, because she is kind of the rising star, right. at least in the past couple of months. and desantis in past performances has not really shown himself to be know exactly what's the nice way to say as quick as some other debaters right as charismatic and it also wouldn't be three guys hashing things out it would change things a little bit and that is would be an interesting formula as well. >> but tonight in georgia, gavin newsom is once again putting it on the line for the party and himself. and so while i think that he is as a tremendous command of things, he also has a lot more at stake than ron desantis, because ron desantis is swinging for the bleachers. he's trying to knock out haley and donald trump. that's a far swing. gavin newsom got to watch it because if there's a misstep by him, that's going to haunt him for some time. and that's a that's a different game. >> that's true. that's very true. before i let you go real quickly, like there was a time

when conventional thinking was that newsom was too liberal to san francisco, to california to be elected in a national race. have things changed? >> and yeah, yes, things have changed because the choices have changed. there was a in an out and out race with everybody in there. you would probably have that thinking. if it comes down to a gavin newsom versus donald trump that rearranges the whole thing. anybody versus donald trump. i think we've seen it in the polls. anybody but joe biden against donald trump. the anybody has a good chance of winning anybody against joe biden. it's not donald trump has a good chance. so this is a convention wisdom isn't conventional anymore. >> for that, we can count on. phil matier, our insider. thank you so much. >> all right. >> coming up, don, hating and polarizing force in us foreign policy. henry kissinger was both revered and reviled. ahead, a professor who also had a long,

illustrious career in the us government and knew kissinger personally reflects back on his

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kissinger america's top diplomat during the nixon and ford administrations, has died at the age of 100. joining us live now to look at kissinger's legacy. professor stephen sestanovich at columbia university's school of international and public affairs. he was also ambassador at large for the state department during the clinton admin orchestration. professor sestanovich, thank you so much for joining us. >> pleasure. >> you, too, have actually met henry kissinger, haven't you? >> yeah, many times.

>> tell us about that. the relationship, the circumstances and your impressions. >> well, i'll give you one episode, and that's probably relevant because cause in the 80s uh- before i worked in the clinton administration, i worked in the reagan administration. and henry kissinger was a big critic of ronald reagan's policy toward the soviet union, which is what i worked on. he thought we were being duped and that we were weakening american influence, that gorbachev was going to trick us. and he came in to see the president several times to try to talk him out of his treaty ideas, his overall approach to personal diplomacy with the with mikhail gorbachev in the end, you know, i think reagan looks pretty good. and kissinger looks as though he kind of got it wrong. but but he was definitely active in trying

to cement his own influence. so while out of office, quickly, for those who aren't familiar, because it was a while ago, like which presidents did he serve? >> i know his republican and democrat. and, you know, what were his chief pieces of, i guess, both accomplishments and failures? >> yeah. um, you know, he's being described as the most powerful secretary of state of the post post-world war two era. i think this isn't quite right. he was a very dominant figure as national security adviser to president nixon and then became secretary of state. but almost from the time he became secretary of state, his influence was is under greater challenge than it had been before. in fact, one of the big influence pieces or lessons of kissinger's tenure is the difficulty of conducting foreign policy without a solid domestic

support and without a unified team in your administration. and that was a problem for kissinger. he had had great success in getting the united states out of vietnam, opening to china, and some agreements with the soviet union. but all of this became more controversial as time went on and he was actually a big political liability for president ford running for election in 1976. and president ford was putting distance between himself and kissinger. i think you could argue that he would have been elected ad except for the burden of kissinger's unpopularity and jimmy carter's success in using human rights as a critique of kissinger. >> can you talk a little more about that in that i've heard him describe as ruthless or a cutthroat, but it is all to accomplish a goal, a vision and

world order, as he saw it in the place that the us, he thought should hold in the world. can you kind of tell people what that was, what he wanted? well it's complicated because because it's so much influence just by his personal charm and intellectual brilliance, there's no doubt that kissinger was one of the funniest people ever to be secretary of state. >> one of the smartest ever to be secretary of state. and he was he created a fantastic celebrity status for himself, which is weird for people in those roles. >> right? as a top diplomat, i mean, it's rare for a diplomat to have that kind of celebrity status. >> absolutely. >> it was completely unique and it made him able to interact with world leaders almost as a peer. and he used that bridge, ciently he would reach out to

other leaders, flatter them and charming them. you know, people talk about how smart kissinger was, but in reality, or at least as effective a tool in his diplomacy. in my mind, was his personal charm. it wasn't everybody's taste, but he was he was a very successful sort of personal manipulator. and i think particularly in the middle east, that turned out to be very valuable to him. >> yeah. and certainly he got a lot of accolades in his day right? i mean, he got that nobel peace prize kind of prematurely for getting us out of vietnam. and then there was more fighting . but and then opening up china, which had been locked down tight , you know, before that. and president ford had awarded him a presidential medal of freedom, calling him the greatest secretary of state in the history of our republic. do you think that still holds? does that stand the test of time? >> uh- i'll give you my honest answer. >> no. i think look, you know,

we are locked in a debate about kissinger. was he a master stroke or a master criminal? well, you know, people who admire some of the diplomat ingenuity will go with master strategist. the people who didn't like the bombing of cambodia and his indifferent attitude toward human rights will say master criminal. but really, if you look at the context, it you see that actually kissinger's policies were very much like what other presidents have pursued and other policy makers who are trying to extricate the united states from a stalemated war. so you know, he's he doesn't seem as unusual and as as as he did in the 1970s. his opening to china is something that is

probably a lasting achievement. but but, you know, nothing really came of it in the in the in his tenure. it's more as china became more powerful that the relationship became much more interesting and much more significant. >> yeah, but that relationship i understand just this summer at age 100, he actually went to china where he was honored. ed, you know what a storied life and a complicated legacy, i'm afraid we are out of time. but professor stephen sestanovich, really appreciate you coming on to talk about henry kissinger on this day. thanks. thank you so much. all right. we're going to shift gears coming up because good for cyclists, bad for business. a new kind of bike lane is having a very unexpected impact on a local business district, at least according to a business owner. our media partner, the san francisco standard, shares that story

business owner along

what about businesses in particular? i think your article focuses on one, a bar that actually blames this type of design for its permanent closure. >> that's right. so we heard from a motto, which is a motto, which is a bar and live music venue. its owner, david quinby, actually wrote a letter to the hispanic chamber of commerce head and he said the bike lane has has caused the closure was a major driver of it. he had mentioned in this letter that it creates issues for musicians who want to park and unload their equipment because him being a live music venue wants to have musicians and that these that

their cars often get cited or even towed for parking. but it's unclear if he meant that the park in the bike lane or near it. we've reached out to the mta for further information about whether cars are being cited there or towed from that address where a motto is located frequently. is there no longer parking along the curb? >> so now we know there have been complaints about a lack of parking because of the bike lane and also the creation of loading zones around the bike lane. >> the idea is a loading zone is a an area where you can't park. so that way a truck can pull up and deliver things like food or other items to businesses along valencia. but the mta has recently made changes to modify the hours so that way those areas that are designated as loading zones might have different colored curb are available for parking for more time during the day to try and help those businesses who have complained about this in the past. that's something we included in this story. >> look, i know a lot of urban

regions, including san francisco, are rethinking bike lanes. right. and there certainly have been a lot of accidents both to cyclists and pedestrians in this city. so talk about how this fits into that picture and are they kind of taking an overall look and thinking about other designs or maybe rethinking this one? >> so i haven't heard anything from the mta about rethink having this design. we know that it's considered a pilot program, so the mta is continuously taking feedback and making adjustments, like i mentioned with the loading zones. one other thing i do want to mention specifically with amato's is that while the owner mentioned, as we put it in the story, that the sales dropped 80% as a result of the bike lane going in, the business itself also did have an issue back during pride weekend where they had a flood that damaged its live music venue in the basement, which they also said tanked the revenue. so while the owner has blamed the bike lane, we haven't been able to verify how much of the sales drop is related to the bike lane and any parking issues

versus other issues. the business might have faced. so that is a i just want to for them right. >> okay. are other businesses saying this as well, though? i haven't heard this from other businesses. >> amato is certainly the most recent complaint. if there are others and they had their last day on saturday. so they're the latest business, if there are any others who have complained about the bike lane and this time, this is the first i've heard of a business blaming its closure on the valencia bike lane itself. >> and there is an evaluation report that's supposed to come out soon right? >> that's my understanding, although i don't know the exact details on when the report is coming out. >> all right. well, when it does, i'm sure you'll have another report for us. so, garrett lahey, thank you so much. thank you. you can check out more of garrett's reporting in the san francisco standard's other original reporting on their website, sf standard .com and abc7 will continue to bring you more segments featuring the standards city focused journalism. look for that twice a weekight here on getting

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bay area. i'll see you back here at tonight, breaking news. the hostages just released. where are the americans? in the u.s., the deadly home explosion. the crater in the ground. and the arrest warrant at this hour for a buffalo bills star in dallas. first, the new images coming in tonight. eight hostages freed by hamas. 30 palestinians released by israel. among the hostages freed, a 21-year-old daughter rushing into her mother's arms. she had been seen in that video released by hamas, pleading for

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