from living spaces. >> living spaces. >> when a delivery driver causes an injury, we'll deliver the most compensation. justice takes more than a fighter. you need a champion. walk up personal injury law. call 866. walk up law >> announcer: "this week" with george stephanopoulos starts right now. >> jonathan: christmas crisis averted. speaker johnson finds a way to fund the government just hours before a shutdown. >> we're grateful that everyone stood together to do the right thing. >> this is a victory for the american people. >> jonathan: the deal does not include the one thing donald trump demanded. >> the president's right to want to get rid of the debt ceiling, but we're right to say, not without spending cuts.

>> jonathan: it's a temporary fix for the start of the trump second term. >> we're set up for a big and important new start in january. >> jonathan: as congress contends with the elon musk factor. >> everybody agreed and that it was blown up by elon musk. >> last time i checked, elon musk doesn't have a vote in congress. >> jonathan: this morning we have the fallout. rachael bade with what looms next on capitol hill. chris christie and the round table on musk and trump. plus -- >> jonathan: so are you going to be donald trump's favorite democrat in the senate? john fetterman on how he'll work with trump in the next congress. and -- >> i did get more votes than him in utah. does that give me a mandate? >> jonathan: our conversation with incoming senator john curtis who hopes for trump's success, but is not afraid to defy him. good morning. welcome to "this week." if you were watching congress

this week, you might have thought for a moment that donald trump is already president. along with his most high-profile and wealthiest adviser, trump upended a bipartisan spending deal that had been months in the making, but the power of a president-elect just like the president of a president, only goes so far. while trump's hold on the republican party is not in doubt, we saw that his power to get congress to do what he wants has its limits. as congress veered towards a shutdown, trump made only one nonnegotiable demand. he said that the bill to keep the government open must also increase or abolish the so-called debt ceiling. that's the amount the federal government can borrow to pay its bills. without this, trump said on social media, we should never make a deal. this wasn't just advice. it came with a warning that he might campaign against republicans who dare to defy him. trump declaring any republican that would be so stupid as to do

this should and will be primaried. and even with that, 38 republicans defied their president-elect. they were either unworried about his warning or simply didn't take it seriously. and in the end, 170 republicans, along with almost all of the democrats approved a bill to temporarily fund the government without raising the debt ceiling. again, guying trump's demand. trump had very good reason to insist on raising or eliminating the debt ceiling. the government is on pace to hit the limit on how much it can borrow next spring, and if it is not raised, the government faces default with dire consequences for the economy and for the trump agenda. this week proved he won't be able to count on republicans alone to avert that disaster. one casualty of this shutdown mess may be the speaker of the house, mike johnson. he tried to do trump's bidding, and he failed, hurting his standing with the president-elect and with at least some of his republican colleagues.

will he be re-elected as speaker when congress reconvenes on january 3rd? with a minuscule republican majority, that could take a minor miracle. on the show this morning, we'll hear from a republican who defied trump on the debt ceiling and it will take the seat held by mitt romney in the senate come january. we'll also hear from the man who may well become donald trump's only democratic friend in the senate. i'm joined now by abc news contributing political correspondent and politico capitol bureau chief, rachael bade. so rachael, why did so many republicans defy trump? >> well, you know, jon, in a lot of ways, i feel like president trump was sort of asking for the impossible in this situation. i mean, there's been a lot of hot takes out there that he in some way, has lost whiz juice with republicans, or his sway. i don't agree with that. this is a toxic vote for

republicans, especially when you are trying to raise the debt ceiling without corresponding spending cuts or really any spending cuts whatsoever. i went back and looked at a lot of the debt ceilings even when donald trump was president before, and way more republicans opposed it. i'm talking about 200 at some point. i'm surprised only 38 republicans actually opposed this. the bigger issue in my view is this sheer breakdown in communication between president trump and speaker johnson here. president trump was telling him he wanted to do this right after the election, that they have been talking about this for a long time. johnson's folks have been under the impression this wasn't a big deal for trump until he blew up the deal. president trump was under the impression when he did add the debt ceiling to the cr, it was going to pass and that's why he leaned in and said, look, republicans. you need to do this. if he would have known he was going to lose 38 republicans, he

wouldn't have done this. the relationship right now, they've got work to do if they want to be effective next year. >> jonathan: does johnson get re-elected speaker on january 3rd? >> it's the million dollar question right now, jon. people have underestimated johnson in the past year and oftentimes, he sort of outlasts hi naysayers here, but the situation is different. i've talked to a lot of trump folks over the past couple of days and trump has really soured on him. it feels like something in this relationship has really broken over the past couple of days. >> jonathan: he needs trump to get re-elected speaker. >> absolutely, he needs trump, and not only does he need the endorsement, but he need president trump to get that gavel, and there's a real question about whether trump is going to lift a finger for him to do this. the question trump has to ask himself is, is ousting johnson worth potentially upending his agenda at the beginning of the year and creating this sort of stall in momentum? i mean, look. we remember the speakership chaos when mccarthy was ousted. >> jonathan: yeah. >> a whole month went by when we

had no idea who was leading the conference. right now this speakership vote is set for january 3rd. president trump, his victory is set to be certified on january 6th. i was talking to somebody pretty high up, a republican on the hill who was saying that without a speaker, you can't certify his election. so does he really want to do this? does he want to stall his agenda? but perhaps he feels like it's worth it. i guess time will tell. >> jonathan: rachael bade, thank you very much. >> thanks, jon. >> jonathan: and let's bring in former new jersey governor, chris christie. governor christie, look. you know what it's like to be part of donald trump's inner circle. you were in the inner, inner circle 2016 through 2020, but i want to ask you about musk. he's practically moved into mar-a-lago, and my first question to you is, this is the wealthiest guy in the world. what is in it for him? why has he become so attached to trump? >> it's hard for folks to understand how intoxicating this can be for some people, but for elon musk, he doesn't stand in front of 20,000 people and have

them chant his name. no matter how rich he is, which is what was happening to him on the campaign trail. >> jonathan: unless he's with trump. >> that's right. on a regular basis in front of trump's crowds and i'll tell you a quick story about donald trump himself in 2016, experiencing this for the first time. i was on the plane with him, and he would typically have this box of documents from trump tower from the real estate business that his body guy, keith, would bring to him once the plane took off, and trump opened the box, looked at a couple of the pages and he turned to me, and he held some of the papers up and he said -- he said, chris. he said, who gives a damn about any of this stuff once i have been involved in your business? and i think that musk is experiencing the same thing. setting off rockets are great. electric vehicles are cool. some of the other stuff he's doing, but it's not what he's experiencing right now. >> jonathan: and right at the

center of power and attention and all of that. >> yep. >> jonathan: how much influence does he really have on trump? how much is he steering what trump is doing? >> in the beginning, anybody who plays this role for trump, and you can go through the last eight years, jon, and there have been different people who played this exact role for trump. it's different because it's elon musk, but when you initially begin in that role, you have enormous influence, and he loves having you around and he loves listening to you, and you're the best thing in the world. it will always decline, and that's what happens, and you'll see it. it'll happen with elon musk too. i used to say this to general kelly when he first became chief of staff. today you're trading at 1 hundred cents on the dollar. you'll trade at zero. the question is how long it will take. >> jonathan: certainly the case with kelly. that's the question everybody is asking. how long does musk last? i've heard some people say he's going to be with him at least through the midterms because he's going to be such a force in funding the republican campaigns, but how long do you think -- when does this end?

>> it ends when trump believes that something has gone wrong, and he needs someone to blame, and musk becomes the person to blame, and no one knows how long that will take. you know, look. our colleague, reince priebus, it was five months, and then he was gone. general kelly, it was 18 months. you know, the people who sit at the very center with trump have a shelf life, and that shelf life is influenced by outside events. as speaker johnson is finding out right now, this is a guy who's done everything trump's asked him to do. he's essentially gotten down on one knee to trump on a regular basis, and now we have this problem this week. you watch. trump will run from him because that's what he does. >> jonathan: and the fact that trump made this demand and he didn't get what he wanted, those republicans defied him, he said he was going to primary, you know, challenge these guys in primaries. what happens? does he just move on from that?

>> of course he does because he's going to have other things he needs to do, and guess what? he's back to the real world, jon. when you are not the president and you're just shooting orders from mar-a-lago, that's one thing. now that you're going to be the president again, and you have to actually get things done, he's going to have to work with these people, and the king of debt, which is what donald trump has called himself over eight years. >> jonathan: right. >> there's a lot of people like chip roy, probably the best example, and others, who say, and i agree that this debt in this country has gotten completely out of control, and they want to use the debt ceiling as a moment to try to make government smaller. donald trump doesn't care about that, jon, and it's going to be interesting to watch how that interplay happens. >> jonathan: governor christie, thank you very much. >> merry christmas, jon. >> jonathan: merry christmas to you. now congressman john curtis. he was 1 of the 38 gop house members who refused to go along with trump's demands and curtis will soon be the newest member of the senate from the state of utah, taking the seat of the retiring senator, mitt romney. as the two make the transition, they echoed a similar message of unity.

romney in his farewell address to the senate, and curtis after he won his senate seat on election night. take a listen. >> our country's character is a reflection not just of its elected officials, but also of its people. i leave washington to return to be one among them, and hope to be a voice of unitip and virtue. >> unity is needed in our nation. you know that. tonight, more than ever, and we should remember that oneness is not sameness, and compromise is not capitulation. >> jonathan: but while senator-elect curtis may be open to compromise, he's also found a willing nose to buck his party's leadership. this week i went to capitol hill to talk one-on-one with a man who says he doesn't want to be just a rubber stamp for donald trump. so i noticed you were on the senate floor when mitt romney gave his farewell address. i'm not going to ask you, are you the next mitt romney in the

senate, but what's your sense of his legacy? >> listen. mitt romney, no matter what you say about him, everybody says he's true to who he is, and that's such a great attribute. i wish we could say that about all of us, and if they say that about me when i'm done, i'll be very happy. >> jonathan: he had this independence, and obviously he was willing to stand up against his own party's leadership. >> yeah. >> jonathan: is that something you see yourself doing? >> you know, it's very important to me that president trump is successful. i want to see him wildly successful, and i'll be supportive of him when he's talking about inflation and the economy and everything like that, but that doesn't mean there won't be moments when i disagree with him, and i think it's very important to me and my constituents that -- that at those moments, that i feel comfortable speaking up. >> jonathan: so you -- i know you don't like labels, but you hear maga republican. >> yeah. yeah. >> jonathan: romney republican, mccain republican. where do you fit?

>> the best description for me is normal. i like that. it's kind of a shortcut to stereotype somebody. we like to have this very quick, oh, you fit into this, and therefore i don't have to know anything more about you because you are moderate, right? and the reality of it is, it's not that simple. a moderate in salt lake city is different than a moderate in st. george or a moderate in massachusetts. so to try to say somebody is a moderate or something just doesn't fit and i really like to align myself with core utah values and the best way to describe those are pioneer values. >> jonathan: now you ran for the senate and trump endorsed one of of your opponents. >> that's correct. >> jonathan: actually did a campaign ad. really got into it for one of your components and you still won. >> so i'll just brag for a minute. i won in a four-way primary with almost 50%. >> jonathan: yeah. >> and as the non-trump endorsed candidate. >> jonathan: was it a double-digit lead? >> it was a substantial lead, yes.

>> jonathan: over the person trump -- how did you do that? i mean, you're, you know, he's the king of the republican party. his endorsement matters more than any other endorsement in a republican primary. what was the key there? >> i believe i was able to be the authentic john curtis, and that people are longing for authenticity, and as i mentioned before, look. i support president trump when he's dealing with some of these really tough issues that we have, the economy, and the conflicts oversea, but i do have my own mind, and i'm not a rubber stamp. my stamp is the stamp of the state of utah and i represent those people, and i think people responded to that in the election, and they're dying for authenticity and just tell us who you really are, and then be that person. i think that's why we did so well. >> jonathan: you hear some of your colleagues, your future colleagues in the senate that say, he won. he's got a mandate. he deserves, you know, everybody that he's chosen. in other words, rubber stamp. >> i heard that from my son by the way at thanksgiving. >> jonathan: he said that?

>> he did. he said, dad, i'm a self-described -- i took the red pill. so he kind of set that up, and my response to him was a couple of things, one in kind of a joking way. i said, i did get more votes than him in utah. does that give me a mandate? but let me come back to this kind of this concept that i think me speaking my mind and me being up front makes the president a better president, and right now i'm interviewing these nominees. i think people forget the advice part of advice and consent. i can't advise the president if i haven't thoroughly talked to these people, if i haven't investigated everything about them, if i haven't learned their strengths and their weaknesses, and i think i owe that to the president, and i think if the better job i do, the better president he will be. >> jonathan: so you've made it clear in things you've said that you'll look very closely at all of these nominees. >> yes. >> jonathan: it seems possible you'll vote against some. maybe you'll vote for all of them.

i don't know. >> i think it's important to go in with this blank sheet and by the way, i've met with some of the more controversial ones. >> jonathan: you've met with pete hegseth, kash patel? >> yeah, and in both cases -- when kash came in, i had already read his book. i talked to three or four people he had worked with, and when pete came in, i said, pete, tell me which of your books you want me to read. i want to find out who the real pete is because i know as a politician, everything that's in the paper i shouldn't take it first hand, and i want to learn myself who he is and what kind of job he will do. >> jonathan: so let's take those two. you said you did -- these were serious issues that had been raised about pete hegseth i believe. did he resolve those? >> no, and there's no way we're going to resolve those in a 30-minute conversation. >> jonathan: did you get into it at all? be we did, but only so slightly because i'm looking at this

process. he still has to go for a hearing. he still has to have an fbi check. it's a little premature for me, right, the try to resolve all those things in 30 minutes. so i asked him what he was going to do in his first hundred days, what he was going to do in his first 500 days, and we did get into those issues, but for me, they remain unresolved and i shouldn't try to resolve them until i have this big, broad canvas of information about him. >> jonathan: but i've also seen you taken heat especially online, social media, from supporters of the president who say, what's wrong with you? just get in line already. why are you asking questions? why are you saying you have concerns? >> anybody who wants to give me heat for doing my job, bring it on. this is my job. it's my constitutional responsibility. these same people are the same people who would have said earlier, you need to take power back from the executive branch. you need to do your job. i've heard that from these very same people and that's what i'm doing. >> jonathan: and kash patel, i mean, what do you make of the

talk of retribution? >> those were very specific conversations i had with him. for me, one of the most important things that i needed to hear from kash is that he would be blind to political affiliation because i know some of the things that he's said and that have been attributed to him. >> jonathan: you read his book. >> and it was important to me that he goes after bad guys. >> jonathan: yeah. >> and i don't care if they're republicans or democrats. we had some very specific conversations about that, and i wanted to make sure that he would be blind to that. >> jonathan: and president trump himself has talked about going after liz cheney, suggesting very recently she could face criminal charges. does that stuff concern you? >> he said the same things about hillary clinton a number of years ago. >> jonathan: lock her up, i recall. >> so i wouldn't say i'm not concerned, but i'm also watching. >> jonathan: part of this whole confrontation we see happening across the way, you're still a house member, is over the debt ceiling. trump wants the debt ceiling to

be raised in perpetuity. >> yeah. >> jonathan: he's saying if it doesn't happen, you know, shut the government down. he told me this directly. >> so a lot of people asked me when i say, i'm sometimes going to have my differences with the president. >> jonathan: yeah. >> give me a good example, and i'll just tell you from my previous service with him at the same time, it's spending. utah is one of the most thrifty places on the planet. >> jonathan: so you wouldn't favor this idea of doing away with the debt ceiling and -- >> no, and not only that. we have to do far more to rein in our spending and it's what my constituents expect me to do, and one of the biggest reasons they sent me here. >> jonathan: you don't think trump is particularly the same on spending? >> we'll see. this thing with musk and vivek, we'll see. let's see if he finds cuts. i was the mayor of my city and i had to have a balanced budget and we made cuts and did it successfully, and there are good ways and bad ways to make these cuts. >> jonathan: when you talk to president trump because you will --

>> yes. >> jonathan: -- what are you going to tell him? >> i want him to be wildly successful. i'm going to be wind at his back on things like inflation. i want him to bring peace around the world. i want to deal with the border situation, and i'm really there for him. i want to be helpful. mr. president, from time to time, i'm going to disagree with you and it will be respectful, and i think when i disagree with you, it will be helpful, and i hope you'll listen to me. >> jonathan: our thanks to senator-elect curtis. coming up, we'll talk to the senate democrat who calls donald trump a, quote, singular political talent and who says his party shouldn't be rooting against him. and up next, the round table on what the shutdown means for speaker of the house mike johnson and for the trump agenda. johnson and for the trump agenda. [cheerful music] [phone ringing] not all multimillionaires build their wealth the same way, you have... the fearless investor. the type a cpa.

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to shut the government down, and how foolish it is to bet your own side won't take the blame for it. when you try to use normal government function as a bargaining chip, you pay a political price. >> jonathan: and that was senator mitch mcconnell on friday in his farewell address as the senate republican leader. let's bring in the round table. former dnc chair donna brazile, npr white house correspondent, asma khalid, national review editor, ramesh ponnuru, and senior political columnist, jonathan martin. he's still president-elect trump for at least a while. >> technically. >> jonathan: he looked like he was kind of like the president already. >> or even speaker of the house.

>> jonathan: yeah. >> i mean the de facto leader of the congress. it's the power he'll wield over the legislative branch, and the chaos he can cause. what makes it more complicated is his side kick elon has his own agenda. now you have two wrinkles, trump and the richest man in the world trying to preside over the congress, and they're in the, you know, same saddle now. we'll see how long that lasts. here's why it matters substantively. republicans next year will have big ambitions and narrow majorities. how are they going to get anything done legislatively with that narrow of a split in the house? keep in mind, when they come back for the first four months of the year, it's going to be literally a one-vote majority in the house until they fill those vacant seats. it's going to be very difficult. when do the tax cuts get done? do they get done at all before 2026? it's one of the questions we're talking about next year.

>> jonathan: and asma, we saw the republicans aren't just going to say how high when trump says jump. >> no, not all them did, though i will say i think the power that we saw with elon musk being able to what? in 100-plus tweets -- >> jonathan: i think it was over 150 posts on x, yes. >> he was in an unelected position, the richest man in the world. i don't think this is something we should overlook because as much as we want to talk about close allies to donald trump in the past, we have not seen somebody like this, right? who not only has money, which is incredibly useful and powerful. >> jonathan: a lot of money apparently. >> but he also has ownership over a huge social media site, and that is an unprecedented combination we've seen, but to your point, yes. i mean, ultimately that bill was torpedoed, but we saw 38 republicans in the house did not line up fully with trump in terms of wanting to indefinitely lift the debt ceiling. i think, you know, to j. mart's point, this is going to have to be fought over in march. trump's tax cuts, a portion of them expire at the end of 2025, and you've got competing ambitions. you've got the new department of government efficiency or not really department, but a governmental role.

they want to limit government spending, and a lot of folks want to keep those tax cuts around. >> jonathan: i'll tell you what. my biggest takeaway from watching this week is that first of all, trump does fear default. he's seen what happens when the government flirts with default. he doesn't want to see the and i tank on his watch. that's why he pushed so hard to get the debt ceiling raised, but you also saw quite clearly that he's not going to be able to do it without democrats. >> right. >> jonathan: so my question to you is, are democrats going to use that leverage -- we always heard, you're not supposed to, but obama and biden always said, you know, it just has to be raised. that's what it is. >> that's true. >> jonathan: it's not a negotiating tactic. >> that's right. >> jonathan: are democrats going to use that leverage now? >> absolutely, and why not? first of all, it was democrats who saved mike johnson's speakership back in may. it's democrats that have helped the house republicans pass all of these spending bills, and if

speaker johnson, i think, can muster up the votes to become speaker again and avoid the chaos that would occur, it's a huge question, but democrats are the firefighters putting out the fires that the republicans, you know, clearly set all the time. look, i think donald trump loves to win, and he lost this week. he saw what coming in at the last minute did to the house republican caucus, and if he continues to play it that way, he's going to lose even more when it's time. not to do a continuing resolution, but when it's time to do a budget reconciliation which you have to put a lot in that package and i don't think donald trump understands that he's going to need democratic support, but he's also going to need a unified caucus as well. >> jonathan: ramesh? >> even in 2017, 13 house republicans voted against the tax cut that had the entire leadership of the republican party buying in. you lose 13 house republicans this time -- >> jonathan: you're done. >> -- you don't -- yeah. >> jonathan: unless you have

democrats. >> unless you have democrats, and the current plan the republicans are talking about is an all-republican reconciliation bill where they have just party discipline and they all vote to increase the debt ceiling, and that it seems to me, is a pipe dream and it's been illustrated this week, and whether they actually have learned it remains to be seen. >> this is important i think because there's a simmering house versus the senate fight going on. everybody in congress knows the battle is never our versus thee. it's always house versus senate. those are the real adversaries in congress. the house is led by jason smith, the ways and means committee chairman which writes the tax bill. he is panicked over the possibility of the tax cut slipping into the calendar year '26 because they want to get trump a fast victory. john thune wants to get trump a fast victory on the border and on energy and wants to do a bill in the first half of next year, and then get big mo and do the tax after that. the challenge for this week as jason said in the house, it may

not be possible to get more than one bill done out of next year's very slim majorities in the congress. so if you are the republican party, do you just gamble and try to do two bills and risk having taxes slip back to '26 in a midterm year? you mention how tough it was in 2017. imagine that tax debate in 2026. the salt issue alone, state and local taxes is going to be brutal for them to overcome. that's one be one of the most fascinating backstage questions. >> and interest rates being higher makes the macro environment for difficult to have that kind of tax cut. you have to worry about whether a projected increase in the debt has some implications for the markets, that it didn't have back then. >> jonathan: what about trump's threat? i mean, he said he was going to primary -- going to support primary challengers. >> it's clear that enough house republicans didn't believe the threat or were sort of more concerned also about constituents at home. i mean, that's always the thing. >> and safety in numbers. when there's 38 of you, it's hard to target you.

>> jonathan: he made a threat. it didn't work. he's not going to follow through on it. he needs these guys for lots more votes. what does that do for his negotiating ability, the art of the deal here? >> i think it weakens here, but i think there's also an additional problem here. you know, we have been talking about the margins in congress and the limited number of republicans. that wasn't the problem this week, right? the problem was the two-leader problem. all through the first administration, republicans in congress, republicans in the executive branch had to wonder where's trump going to come down on this issue? what's going to set him off? what's going to attract his attention? now they have to do that for two different people and that's an additional paralyzing agent. >> look. look. mr. musk also threatened democrats with primaries as well, and said, look. i'll run some moderates against them, and most of the democrats just said, oh, really? trust me. >> jonathan: he does have some money to throw around. >> you can outwork money. you can outwork money if you have a strong message. >> jonathan: as donald trump proved by the way in november. >> absolutely. that's true.

>> jonathan: november of '16 and '24. >> but the threats alone, i don't think will help mr. trump get his agenda through. he's going to have to work with his republican caucus, but -- i also believe he's going to have to sit down and work with a few democrats as well. >> which has always been a challenge by the way, picking up the phone, making those calls and asking somebody else for help. never been his strength, but you look at the numbers and he's going to have to next year. >> tiny majority. he's going to need democrats. >> jonathan: and the elon musk factor. how is he playing on the hill? it was over 100. i think it was 150 posts just on this one bill. >> totally misleading too. >> jonathan: by the way, a lot of them misleading. >> i will say it is absolutely correct that yes. the whole strategy was not a win for donald trump, but what i will say is that the fact that elon musk's power of tweeting could torpedo the initial agreed upon spending plan to me also does show that there is power in

his money, power in his ability to navigate that social media site that he owns. look. i mean, ultimately didn't -- the game plan didn't work out for him the way helmeted it to, but he was ultimately able to torpedo the initial plan and how he uses that site going forward, i don't think we know because we've never seen someone that has money and access to the trump show is a one-man act. >> jonathan: it is for sure. coming up, a democrat who calls donald trump a, quote, singular political talent and says he hopes he is a successful president. my conversation with pennsylvania senator john fetterman is up next.

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to care for all that is you. >> jonathan: president-elect trump's cabinet picks have been making their rounds on capitol hill ahead of their confirmation hearings and there's been one democrat who has made time to meet with just about all of them. senator john fetterman explains why when we come back. and of course, the round table is here as well. we come . and of course, the round table is here as well. it is inevitable. they will grow up. (♪) discover who they are (♪) what they want from this world. and how they will make it better. and while parenting has changed, how much you care has not. that's why instagram is introducing teen accounts. automatic protections for who can contact them and the content they can see.

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and ask your doctor if keytruda could be right for you. i'll never forget. it was june in 2016, and i was a -- i was a surrogate for clinton, and trump announced, hey. i'm showing up in a town called monesson, which is a small steel town in the valley down from ours, and i'm, like, why the -- why is he showing up there? that's not -- so either he's crazy or they've plugged into something. they figured out that they have to connect and to make that kind of an argument to go to these kind of places, and it did. it resonated. >> jonathan: that was pennsylvania senator john fetterman on the joe rogan podcast talking about why he thought donald trump was able to win his state in 2016. in two years in the senate, fetterman has shown an independent streak and more recently he's been more willing to meet in-person with trump's top cabinet picks including pete

hegseth and as we are first to report here this morning, he's also met with fbi pick kash patel. i met up with senator fetterman to discuss how he views his role as donald trump returns to washington. so are you going to be donald trump's favorite democrat in the senate? >> i don't know what that really means because you never know, but i am -- i'm just -- i'm just a regular democrat. i'm not leaving my party, but i'm not sure why some of the things that i've chosen to do like meeting with nominees and having views that might be more aligned with some of the republican side, i think that's part of politics, and that's pretty much consistent with just doing the job and representing the kind of state that we have in pennsylvania. >> jonathan: looking forward, what are you most optimistic about with a trump presidency, and what do you fear?

>> well, it's, like, i've been warning people, like, you got to chill out, you know? the constant, you know, freakout, it's not helpful. so, you know, pack a lunch. pace yourself because he hasn't even taken office yet. >> jonathan: do you think he has the potential to be a successful and a good president? >> i hope. i hope because i'm not rooting against him. if you are rooting against the president, you are rooting against the nation, and i'm not ever going to be where i want a president to fail. so country first. i know that's -- it's become maybe like a cliche, but it happens to be truth. >> jonathan: what was the single biggest factor behind kamala harris and democrats losing in november? >> you have a singular political talent. it's undeniable. >> jonathan: trump? >> you know, he had the energy

and almost the sense of fearlessness to just say all those kinds of things, and people -- it's -- it's undeniable that it has an entertaining aspect for that too, and just if you are not afraid to say all of those things or -- and after you survived an assassination, you literally were shot in your head, and had the presence of mind to respond, you know, fight, fight, fight. i mean, that's a political talent. it's undeniable, and also i never believed that it was about fascism, and for me, that made it difficult -- >> jonathan: kamala harris said that he was a fascist. >> that's her prerogative, i mean, but it's not a word that i would use because you put a lot of democrats, especially in my state, that i know and i happen to love people that are going to vote for trump, and they are not fascists, and also fascist, that's not a word that regular

people, you know, use. i think people are going to decide who is the candidate that's going to protect and project, you know, my version of the american way of life, and that's what happened. >> jonathan: i've talked to a lot of democrats before the election who were saying, we're going to win. harris is going to win in pennsylvania, but you -- you saw this coming. >> if you live in pennsylvania, you spend time in red county pennsylvania as much as i did, the support's astonishing. i mean, i was driving home from indiana county at 9:00, and there was a trump superstore on the side of a road. 9:00 on friday night, and people are buying swag, and then really -- that really crystallized at the assassination, and that was in butler county, western pennsylvania. fairly close to where i live, and the day or two later, you start seeing people wearing shirts with that iconic picture, and, you know, the energy and

the anger and it's, like, wow. i really thought, in fact, i thought that might be ball game, and then the second thing really, and that's when musk and i were in the business. surrogacy is part of it, and sometimes it really has much of an impact, but i knew that was going to. a special one. >> jonathan: the endorsement of elon musk? >> yeah. well, an endorsement and an active one. i'm not even talking about his checkbook. it's rare if you have a surrogate that has a lot of fan boys and is very compelling to a lot of the demographic that we are losing in our party, and in pennsylvania. >> jonathan: do you think he would have won without elon musk? >> well, i -- i'm not sure if we would have lost bob casey, but i do think trump -- it would have been closer.

i really believe that it mattered. we lost bob casey for 15,000 votes, and yeah. i'm sure he did move the needle. it's undeniable. >> jonathan: how would you grade the trump transition? >> i mean, it's not really a grade. i'm saying this is a democrat, you know, it's like -- i clearly -- after he announced gaetz and i'm, like, that's just -- i described it. that's god tier trolling. that was never serious and anyone here in congress knows that he's despised by republicans too. so that also set the stage and here's what's coming, and now i have met with all of them so far, and the ones that we haven't -- >> jonathan: his nominees? >> they're on the schedule back in january. >> jonathan: you've met with pete hegseth. >> i did, yeah. >> jonathan: do you think he's qualified to be defense

secretary? >> well, i think we're going to learn more. we're going to learn more, and that hearing and there's going to be an fbi background, and that, but, you know, my commitment, and i think i'm doing the job, is i'm going to sit down and have a conversation, and the president picked these people. not going to be my first choice, second choice, third choice, but that's democracy, and to me, i would be distressing if -- if he is confirmed if the democrats are going to turn our back collectively to the leader of defense. i mean, that's astonishing, and that's dangerous. >> jonathan: so you see yourself inclined to be open to supporting these controversial nominees? you might not support them all, but you see yourself -- >> potentially, but there is going to be some that i'll vote yes and some i will vote no, but no one can accuse me of saying i had a closed mind or i said no

because trump picked this person. >> jonathan: elise stefanik, you said you are going to vote for her. thumbs up. >> yeah, and rubio, and for me, it's, like, you know, rubio for me, it's like he's in the other party, obviously, but, you know, there is a lot of, you know, the venn is closer. there's a lot of overlap, and now if i was as a democrat, looking to assemble a bipartisan cabinet, he would be a solid choice, you know, from a democrat. >> jonathan: you met with kash patel, i believe, right? >> yesterday, yes. >> jonathan: he's talked about going after trump's enemies. >> yeah, and i've -- we have had conversations, but we had, you know, all of these -- all of these interviews were all off the record in those things. i'm not going to go into detail, but he absolutely is that -- that's, you know, that's never

going to happen. like, he was -- he was very forceful about it. >> jonathan: he's not going to use the fbi to go after trump's enemies. did you believe him? >> that's what he claims. and i found out, you know, his family's origin story, and immigration, and we talked about that, and my wife -- my family immigration and things, and so i learned things about him. i never knew that he was a public defender. >> jonathan: so did you come across liking kash patel more than you thought you would? thinking you could support him? >> it's -- i mean, how much you can absorb in 30 minutes, but i have learned things, and i have heard things, and i have no regrets for having these -- i never left any of those interviews saying, wow. that was a waste of time or i regret that. >> jonathan: have you talked to trump since the election? >> i have not. i have not, no. >> jonathan: so i assume he's going to call you at some point. what is your message to him after he sees this? >> what would i say to him?

i would be, like, well, hey. well, congratulations, and have an honest conversations of things i would like -- we could work together, and some things we're going to disagree. i would like to avoid, you know, the cheap heat and some of the other stuff, but it's going to be a kooky ride, i'm sure, but i try to be a committed, steady voice for pennsylvania and to remember that we have to find as many wins in the middle of an incredibly divisive times. >> jonathan: all right. our thanks to senator fetterman. coming up, some candid comments from the architects of trump's victory, on what democrat they feared most when biden dropped out, and who they believe is trump's heir apparent in 2028. we'll discuss that with the round table when we come back. in 2028. we'll discuss that with the round table when we come back.

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>> jonathan: t >> jonathan: the round table is back. j. mart, i have to get to your just published with the architects of trump's victory, lacivita, and fabrizio. they said they were testing replacements before biden even dropped out, and there was one democrat they feared more than any. >> one the dems couldn't have, michelle obama. she tested the strongest in the internal trump polling when they were trying to figure out who the dems would swap in biden for, and that was the one that by far had the most name i.d. obviously it was never going to happen, but it shows the potency for the obama brand, especially the michelle obama brand. >> jonathan: which is more powerful than the barack obama brand? >> no. michelle is in a category by herself. she played an enormous role for kamala harris and as we know, michelle obama is just a beautiful woman. >> jonathan: but you talked to the campaign -- you were at the same meeting which included both the harris team and the trump

team, and the bottom line is the trump team was getting ready for biden to drop out weeks before they did, even before the debate. >> they said they started looking at analysis for this in may, but what was striking is we watched that debate and we asked him, when they knew things were going south for biden. they knew in the first five minutes that was over. >> jonathan: some said it was the first 30 seconds. >> when they walked out. >> they said they were prepared. they had alternative versions of speeches set up for the republican convention in case a swap was made ahead of time which i think is interesting because, you know, to those of you who covered the news event, no doubt it was shocking when it happened. >> jonathan: yeah. >> we were also playing catchup. some of us may have had prewrites done, but they were prepared. >> when you talked to campaign professionals, the losing campaign always emphasized structural elements. there's no way we could have won given x, y, and z. >> jonathan: they didn't sound like that during the campaign. >> the winning campaign talks a the brilliant decisions they

made. i think the trump campaign can legitimately claim they were on the air with much more message discipline than we saw from the democratic campaign. they had harris is a dangerous liberal. we're focused on the economy. and the harris campaign had a lot of different messages. >> jonathan: i mean, i had one theory that one problem was harris had too much money. there was less of a need for discipline with what they were putting out in advertising. they had hundreds of, you know, a hundred different messages in the closing weeks. >> and they're also an indication that 107 days is not enough time for people to get to know and you for the american people to coalesce around a new voice when they were expecting joe biden. look. the one big takeaway that i got from reading that long, lengthy piece that you wrote -- >> jonathan: they're not as tough over politico. >> it's not just the message discipline, but the candidate was really prepared to win this election.

>> jonathan: and we're almost out of time, but who did they tell you was the heir apparent? >> both lacivita and fabrizio, they both believe jd vance is going to be the the heir apparent, and in the context of elon musk, let's see how that relationship looks four years from now as opposed to how it does today. give vance credit. >> jonathan: it can't be musk because he wasn't born in the united states. >> but give vance credit because he's cultivated this now for two years it's worked and gotten him to this point. >> it was a generational pick. >> jonathan: we're going to stop right there. we will be right back.

>> jonathan: thank you for sharing part of your sunday with us, and be sure to tune in thursday night on abc for the primetime special "the year" with robin roberts highlighting the most memorable moments from 2024. have a merry christmas and a happy hanukkah to all who celebrate. christmas and a happy hanukkah to all who celebrate.

the passing of rickey henderson, including reaction from another oakland legend who won a world series with him. >> and good morning to look at all the clouds. we have fog. the rain has ended for now. we have a level one system tonight, and we're going to get a few breaks of sun in for the day today. stay with us. the full forecast is coming up next

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