we'll talk to chairman republican trey gowdy and top democrat ellijah cummings. we'll talk about the democratic debate and presidential campaign with our political panan. journalism legend bob woodward. also talk about revelations in his new book, the last of the president's men, the story of a team player in the falof the nixon white house. all ahead on "face the nation." good morning i'm john dickerson this thursday all eyes will be on capitol hill where the former secretary of state hillary clinton will testify in front of the house committee in vest gaiting the september 11, 2012 attacks. that attack resulted ininhe deaths of four americans including ambassador chris steven. we're joined by the cirman, republican trey gow who is in clemson, south carolina, this morning. good morning, mr. chairman. i want to talk to you about some people from your open party who have talked about this committee

but house majority leader kevin mccarthy suggested that this committehas driven down hillary clinton's l poll numbers. a congressman from new york says that this was political investigation, former investigator on your team has said that this was a politically tivated investigation. why would all these people say that? >> i guess because they don't have any idea what the facts are, john. if you look at the facts, we have done 50 witnesses, one of whom you could argue was exclususely related to her e-mail, that was shortest interview we have done. we have 50,000 new documents have anything to do with secretary clinton. she's an important witness, she is one witness and by the time we're through, we will have interviewed 70 w wnesses. she's one out of 70. i get that she gets more attention than the other 69. but frankly if you ask me the

night in benghazi are more important to me as former prosecutor than the form of secretary of state. >> dickersononas former prosecutororf you looked at the evidence, political committee, wouldn't that be enough to least start investigation whether this is politically motivated. >> well, actually, there's no evidence. there are three people who don't have any idea what they're tataing about. two of my colleagues, the two republican members of the conference have never asked for update on our committee. they cooperate name three witnesses we've talked to. they cooperate tell you a single document production that we have received. and the former staffer left in june, he has nidea whahae've done since june and allegation about secretary clinton, he never said until he sat down with somebody in your profession last friday. these three wouldn't even be job. happened knowledge. >> dickerson: let me ask you, you told the "new york times" you a aed speaker bane tore allow another committee to focus on the clinton e-mails because

you wored that it would distract from the work of your committee. have your fears been realized? >> well, i don't know. other people are going to have to make that decision i i will r will tell you this, when speaker boehner called m m he never ntioned secretary c cnton's name, not once. in my position has been the same. four dead americans is more than enough work for me. she's a witness. she was the secretary of state. you have to talk to her. we've already talked to 50 people not named clinton we're ing to talk to another cououe of dozen not named clinton. i understand that there's mor attention associated with her, but from my perspective i am much more interested in chris stevens' e-mails which we just received than i am her e-mails which we just received. >> dickerson: speaeang of the the platetization of this, carly fiorina rendered her view this week, i wish for once mrs. clinton would be prepared to standby held accountable for

murder of four americans in benghazizi libya. what do you make that havee comment, is that what thursday is about? >> no, that is not what thursday is about. it's about what happened before, during and after. frankly secretary clinton's defense she's going to have lot more information about the before than she is the durinin and the after.. i get that there's presidential campaign going on. i have told my own republican colleagues and friends, shut up talking about things that you don't know anything about. and unless you're on the committee, you have no idea what we've done, why we've done it and what new facts we have found. we have found new facts that have absolutely nothing to do with her. i get the people don't want to talk about that but the seven members of my committee are much more focused on the four dead americans than we are anyone's presidential aspire. >> dickerson: what are the new facts, seven investigations, why have another one. what new facts have you got that

>> you know, john, i do hear there have been sech which makes me smile because i wonder how did they miss ambassador stevens' e-mails. if you want a window into libya what was happening in the weeks and months before these four were killed, why would you not look at the ambassador's e-e-ils, he was a p plific e-mailer, i'll give you one-week time piod in june. he's just been put in place as ambassador, just accepted. on june the 7th. he is already asking for more security. he knows that there's an uptick in violencnc he's asking forore security. almost exactly that day, john, he is asked to read and respond to an e-mail from sidney blumenthal who knows nothing about libya. he's asking for security and jake sullivan washington is asking our ambassador the day

with ied to respond to an e-mail. our ambassador asked for public messaging advice on the violence in libya. we need help with your public messaging advice. he needed help with security, john. he didn't need help with pr. he was asking for more security. and one occasion he even joked in an e-mail, maybe we should ask another government to pay for our security upgrades because our government isn't willing to do it. u got to look at his e-maiai. >> dickerson: what do those two points go to that nobody was listening to ambassador stevens? >> the total disconnect between what was happening in libya with the escalation and violence. that we were a soft target, that there was increase in anti-western s stiment. that we were facing an uptick in violence while washington is asking him to read and react to a sidney blumenthal e-mail and

he needed help on how to deal with it. >> dickersrs: any new ininrmation whether there could have been chance to rescue on that night? >>&yes, sir, there's more information on military preparedness and our inability/ability to respond some that have information i'm not able to give you publicly i would just tell you this. we have new information a a three portions of libya have nothing to do with secretary clip ton. >> dickerson: what do you want to know from secretary clinton? >> while violence was going up in libya why was our security profile going down? it wasn't even staying the same. it was going down. in the past, john, she has said i had people and processes in place to handle that. well, you also have people and pros he's in place to handle dash that made it to our open box. i want to know why certain things made it to your inbox, madam secretary, but the pleadings of our own ambassador that you put in place for more

it to your inbox. that's a fair question. >> dickerson: bernie sanders made some headlines in the democratic debate when he said about hillary clinton's e-mails he said, i'm hair phrasing, the country doesn't care about her damn e-mails, what's your reaction to that? >> i compare about her e-mails that they relate to libya and benghazi. there may be other entities evaluating her e-mails. my interestolely making g re that i iet everyththg i'm entitled to so i can do my job. the rest of it, clasfication, clinton foundation, you name it, i have zero interest in which is why you haven't seen me send single subpoena or inter vieieis in earl person because i need to know that the record is complete . >> dickerson: last question. do you have everything that you need now from hillary clinton? >> no, sir. we don't have all the e-mails. state department will concede that. but in certain point you have to

go ahead call the witness. we're still missing large bunches of information from the executive branch and from this administration. but it's been a year and a half i need to call her idea thanks so much, chairman. joining me is the top democrat, maryland representative ellijah cummings. mr. cummings,, your reaction to the chairman? >> it's interesting that after 17 months $7 million and counting of taxpayer money that chaiaian gowdy has another two dozen witnesses to interview. very interesting. and i do believe, what he is trying to do, i listened very carefully, he's now trying to shift back to where we should have been all along, that is looking at the benghazi incident and it's clear to me, he can try

to dismiss the words of congressman mccarthy, second highest ranking member in congress. he can try to dismiss the words of congressman hanna a a of his hand-picked investigator who quit. but the fact is that he keeps saying, don't listen to what they say, we were on the committee, too. he said there were seven members. also five democrats that were on the -- we know what has been going on. he has not yet interviewed the head of the cia. he has not yet interviewed the head of joint chiefs, the head of secretary of defense, none of that. >> dickerson: let me ask you, advisor to hillary clinton, you are saying -- is this a sham on thursday? >> i think it's a sad day for all of us. because we madad a c cmitment to

the families came inith tears in their eyes literally said, please do not make this a political football, that's exactly what's happened. they said find out more information about what did happen and then they asked us to do one other thing, that is try to make sure you figure out how this does notot happepe again. i ink we failed at all three. >> dickerson: if you listen to chairman gowdy he says two of the things, one by looking at the chris stevens' e-mails you get a sense of how much he was pleading and not being listened to, lines of communication not open. also says there's new information about t t ability to respond to an attack like that, isn't that where the information -- >> we need to honor the families' requests that is that we figure out how to make sure this doesn't happen again. i'd be happy to look into that, keep in mind we have had nine investigations. by the w w i think -- talked about sidney blumenthal and others. we need to have a complete transparent record.

sure that he releases all the transcripts of all these people that he claims that we have interviewed because i got to tell you most of them are state department people. former aides. people that worked in her campaign, speech writers. talk about this 50 witnesses we still have been zeroed in on hillary clinton. there is absolutely no doubt, very unfnftunate. >> dickerson: you knkn about investigations, if you have investigation and key person in it turns out had a totally different way of communicating r that people didn't know about which to say that mick's e-mail server wouldn't that say i'd like to know about this. even to find out if it's totally denine wouldn't that take some time andndnergy to look into that? >> might very well. the fact is that this is a benghazi committee. perhaps another committee might want to look into all that. this is a benghazi committee. we have strayed away from what

we were supposed to be doing. again,n,'m lookiki for transparency. one of the things i'm going to be doing is releasing our report. democrats report of excerpts from the various unclassified transcriptions where i can tell you that of all the things that mr. gogoy and others have b bn accusing hillary clinton of over the last three years, not a witness verifies that. >> dickerson: in your report that is released is information that sets hillary clinton was not involved in what, exactly. >> was not involved in t ts decision with regard to security on the ground there and -- also addresses the issue of whether she was responsible for this gun running, elicit gun ripping between libya and s sia. itit goes on to -- then the big allegation that they made that

to help our -- four diplomats, that's not true. i'm asking for mr. gowdy to release all the transcripts so the american people e n see what they paid for. >> dickerson: do you think mr. gowdy has academy in bad faith. >> i think he's a good man. i think he's been pressured a lot from the right. i think -- the fact is that -- the facts speak for themselves. but one thing i do know. is that we have -- the course we have taken where we literally a year ago had a plan that mr. gowdy presented to us that we would have been interviewing all of these key people, he threw that away went straight after hillary clinton and we have not had one hearing s sce january of t ts year. >> dickerson: as head of the department at the time do you think hillary clinton bears some responsibility for what happened -- >> she does. she said she does. she's taken full responsibility. when she comes in i want though

our dipipmatic core and embassies. i want her to t tl us exactly what we can do as congress to address these issues also. >> dickerson: is there anything else that you want to know, you'd be glad to look into some of the claims mr. gowdy made in terms of new information that he found. anane-mails that is the derlying question of benghazi? >> i want to know what can we do to make things better in the future. that's what this is all about. that's what the families ask for, that's what we should be all about. at some point we have to move from politics to policy. >> dickerson: republicans wou say you helped the e-mails had nothing to do with benghazi but they would say you can't get to the information about benghazi unless you know what the key -- >> keep in mind that mick has turned in tens of thousands of pages of e-mails, more than any other secectary in the history

keep in mind colin powell and condoleezza rice have not turned in one page. we have microscope over her entire tenene as secretary of state. going to be interesting. >> dickerson: it is indeed. thank you for being with us. we'll be back in one minute.mpany's data is secure, the possibility of a breach can quickly become the only thing you think about. that's where at&t can help.. at at&t we monitor our network traffic so we can see things others can't. mitigating risks across your business. leaving you free to focus on what matters most. want to see your f fure? you're me, rightht (engine rev) i obviously haven't slowed down at all!

the key is to stay hungry. by t t way, our wife's'sn there. seriously?? the audi a8. ambition never rests chicago is democratic strategist and cnn senior political commentate or david axelrod. thanks for being with us. what is your sense of the hillary clinton stakes? >> i think there are stakes but they have been reduced by the circususround this committee, some which you discussed in your inter views with the two leaders that have committee. i think most americans suspect that there's a political element, that is to say had hillary clinton not been running for president of the united states there probably would not have been a a investigagaon, probably would not have led into the presidentialace as it has

here. then you have the testimony of some of his own members, i thought it was pretty remarkable when he kind of went negative on his own members. including majority leaderr saying i had no idea what the committee was doing. i think it was going to be a very pressure-filled moment for hillary clinton. it probably still will be. now there's lot of pressure on chairman gowdy to prove that this whole thing isn't merely a political escapade. >> dickerson: she passed a pressure moment in that debate this week, democratic debate. how do you people think she did well her campaign, can she lock in gains? what happens after a good performance like that? >> i think what she did ended a panic. in the summer and into the falll there was this concern that she wasn't going to be the strong candidate that people hoped she would be.

bernie sanders did well with his own supporters in that debate. between them they continue to hold about thrhr quarters of the vote even with the vice president as potential candidate in those polls. >> dickerson: a question about r bernie sanders he's going to create revolution that is going to put pressure on congress get things passed that he proposes. you were part of doing that wit president obama trying to take the coalition built in the election to create and affect policy. given your experience how realistic are bernie sanders' claims about revolution affecting policy? >> i had this discussion with him, he was on my podcast a few weeks ago i asked him about health care, specifically because he's calling foror single papar health care system. i pointed out that we couldn't even get a public option within the proposathat we had for affordable care act because some democrats were resistant to it and he said, well i'm going to have millions of people march on washington and representatives will l lk out the window thth

will see that. the fact is majority of americans don't support single payer, i happen to think it's a good idea but i respect the fact that a lot of americans don't. i think bernie sanders knows that he's been in congress for 25 years, he's a very experiencece legislator and he knows what limitations are. he's speaking to people's aspirations. >> dickerson: let me ask you 'bow joe biden, speculation continues, one of the things, he would run as more full supporter of president obama. third term of baracac obama is that sufficiently distinguishable to make him that much different than hillary clinton. >> i think it's tough. the great impetus for his candidacy through the summer months into the fall was this sense that hillary clinton was sufficient as candidate. i think she's, as i said earlier, turned bunch of that off. now he is between ten and 0%

he's late in terms of raising money. it's difficult to put organization together. he's got real challenges ahead if he gets into the race. he's talented, he's got a plot to offer. but itit a hard road forwardrd if he denied to go. >> dickerson: reporting has been, now new reporti suggesting might take even longer, if you were were involved in advising him in some capacity, would you -- is his window closing? has it closed? >> there are some officiaia reasons why it will close because handful of states have filing deadlines in november. you have to do certain things to get ready for those. i also think particularly within the democratic community there's growing impatience with this period of reflection. i thinknke is strugglingith the emotional toll of running for president versus his ambition to do so. he's obviously going to take every minute he can to weigh the two. >> dickerson: david axelrod,

thanks.

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to what it needs to become. >> d)ckerson: donald trump are in small fig about a big thing. legacy of the 9/11 attacks and george w. bush's presidency. >> when you talk about george bush say what you want, the world trade center came down. >> dickerson: calling trump patheticice were attacked by brother kept us safe to which trump responded, no, jeb bush, you're pathetic. saying nothing happened during your brother's term when the world trade center was attacked

ben carson came done on george bush's side. >> i think it's ridiculous. dickerson: jeb bush doesn't want to be defined by his brother now using george w. bush's legacy to define trump saying, in tweets and video released that trump's's comments about george w. are evidence that he lacks the judgment to be president. him. >> relates to my brother there's e thing i know for sure he kept us safe. i don't know if you remember -- [ applause ] >> dickerson: jeb bush asking for referendum on his brother in a public debate with rival he is yet find way to beat. this may work or it may backfire. further tying jeb's prospects to his brother's record. rendering a negative verdict on that legacy which was improving before jeb entered the race. back in a moment. annabelle, your birthday is tomorrow. i'm turning seveve what did you ask for?

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that's where at&t can help. at&t has the toolslsnd the network you need, to make working as one easier than ever. virtually anywhere. leaving you free to focus on what matters most. >> dickerson: some of our cbs stations are leaving us now but for most of you we'll be right nation."

andd look atey player in the watergate saga. >> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." we're joined by the "washington post" legendary bob woodward who needs no introduction. mark halperin, nancy corors our cbs correspondent jeffrey goldberg is the national correspondent for the atlantic. bob, you've seep a few committees. what do you make of the benghazi committee and this hearing? >> the successful congressional investigations eventually become bipartisan.

senate watergate committee was set up by a vote in the senate 77-0, dozens of republicans say, we need to look at this. now we've got a fractured committee and so you wind up getting fractured partisan data. >> the fact that congressman mccarthy said what he said that hillary clinton is on the offense, that chairman gowdy shared that he does not know how to frame for the public, broad questions, what did the president know when did he know it. i think hillary clinton set up to be as strong and as powerful in this hearing unless chairmann gowdy sitting on s se secret which anyone could imagine. >> dickerson: mark makes good poinl, this goes down the rabbit hole very quickly. take us back to 30,000 feet, what is the big question this year about u.s. policy and -- >> hearing about the wrong subject as ittelates to libya.

the question facing america not what happened that night in benghazi, those are important questionthat we have to have better diplomatic security quite obviously. question for hillary clinton going into this race is, why did you support libya intervention that has failed? in the debate she owned the intervenge, she thought she said it was the right thing to d. libya is in state of failure that should be what we're debating. the role of intervention -- u.s. should be playing in the middle east in these disintegrating states. everything is being missed actually. >> dickerson: the role of what you do after you come in. >> that's the key. thisiss the halal way intervention. so it's going to be interesting when you into the general, if she goes into the general, is she going to have distance her stretch president obama's reluctant to actually fully commit in libya. >> dickerson: nancy, what do you make of clinton posture going into this, how is their feeling? >> she has some wind in her

bee debate because of the gift that you talked about with kevin mccarthy, richard hanna saying at least admitting partly political. challenge is going to be that chairman gowdy has said he wants to do four rounds of questioner. with 1 members of the committee we're looking at eight hours before you even work in lunch, votes, breaks. it's very hard even if you're most disciplined person testifying not to have a moment where you say something that you wish you didn't, especially when you're i ihour seven or eight. >> dickerson: have to bring a sleeping bag. let's pivot to joe biden and speculation. bob, what is your gut tell you? >> i think when we know actually what happens when he announces his decision we'll find out that he's decided both ways. i know for a fact months ago he told somebody very, verer closese him that he had decided to run.

i think what's happened is that he's undecided to run and maybe decided again, so we're in this never-neverland. this ha when you peel back it goes up and down, this way and that way. probably he won't. but surprise, maybe. >> dickerson: people have now reached the "heck if i know" stage. mark, there's a suffolk university r university pole about new hampshire, do you want joe e de tone runun. 50% said they did not want himm to r r. 36 said they did want him to run. what is your sense of the politics? >> i think that static analysis would say if he got in now it's too late. no way to overcome the poll deficits. my sense from talk topping people that the vice president is not looking athis as static thing. afraid to end his carr with

humiliate can loss or moved by hillary clinton getting good reviews in the debate or what happens thursday. if he runs, he will try to run as incumbent vice president saying, i'm part of an administration you liked democrats, i can do bet every, i can win a general election, i cann talk about econonoc middle class, working class. i think in the end according to people who have talked to him of late he's sharp as focused as over his grief as he has been since bo died. but not all are sure he's all >> dickerson: the top person in hillary clinton's camamign said in the "neneyork times," said joe biden needs to make a decision which felt like movement from where the clinton campaign whichs let joe make weigh in. >> i think they're absolutely biden. people who i have spoken to in his inner circle say, he doesn't care. he is happy to wait. hehe willing to withstata the slings and arrows not just the clinton camp but others in the democratic party say he needs to get off the fence.

thinks that's the best thing for him. someone else very close to him told me that he is always had say that in politics, either you're on your way up or on your way down. he knows minute he says he's not running, he's on the way down. he's a lame duck vice president who is probably leaving office for good in a year. that's something that's difficult to say for someone who spent more than half their life. >> dickerson: move to bernie sanders. you know when you are being parodied on "saturday nightt live." >> millions of people, we've got to do something. we got to do it now! >> dickerson: david larry, creator of seinfeld. i want to ask y y, bob, the question i asked david axelrod, he's going to create revolution that's going to put pressure on congress.

given how polarized things are, what is your sense? >> i think if you really look at what voters are thinking they want not a revolution but some sort o o peace and let's do away with lot of the slings and arrows that are flying around. my guess, it's a guess, but it's about most likely outcome that the democrats are going to find a progressive candidate not a revolutionary or radical one. thee republicans are going to find the person who most resembles ronald reagan. somebody -- this is the new hero in the republican party f. anybody can stand up convincingly and say, i'm most like ronald reagan, that may be the nominee. just a very quick point on bernie sanders. hope and change tushed out to be harder to tell, despair and change is probably going to be

harder to sell than that. there's a top line here you can't cross. >> if he wins the nomination and general election there will be revolution. he will sweep democrats in control of thehe senene. cocod well turn the house. he will have -- voters turn out to vote for bernie sappedders he's absolutely right that he would have a mandate to do lots of things. talk about difficult to get there. >> i don't know if it's -- very difficult. i don't think we should be so cynical as to say that if he foununa following, if heot the american people to elect him president of the united states that he wouldn't then have mandate to make the fundamental changes. i agree he's a long shot to do both. >> if he got there that would be the -- >> like you've never seen before. >> in his defense he's not saying he is going to start a revolution. he's saying that he needs a revolution becausesee knows that if thehings he wants too do are going to be impossible to do. given this congress otherwise. >> dickerson: that's it for now

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from a partner who knows how to make your enterprise more agile, borderless and secure. hp helel business move on all the possibilities s today. and stay ready for everything that is still to come. >> dickerson: we're back. the republican side of the race. donald trump and jeb bush are in fight over george w. bush's legaga. >> such a useful fight j. dickerson: what do you make that have? >> as you pointed out. it's quite an interesting moment. jeb is tying himself his brother which might work in the

primaries but if he gets to general that's death, that doesn't do very much. this issue that trump centered on has come to the 9/11 issue, such an interesting one. there are t of things you can blame george w. bush for. but 9/11 is slightly lower down on the list, the guy was president when this happened. if you look one of the critiques trump has of bush is that his immigration policies led to this. now, the 9/11 hijackers were in america before george w. bush was president. that's a bit of a stretch. >> dickersondonald trump maming a stretch. >> he's in fight to marco rubio to be the establishment. assumes there will be such a thing. chosen to open another trunk in his war, in bush world they believe why would trump fall, because votots will say he's not a credible commander in chief. he opened the door, it's dangerous for bush.

it's not helped. >> dickerson: he's most animated moments are in defense of his brother which creates that lock. bob, i want to ask you about, jeb b sh tried to get out from upped his brother. this is history. george w. bush was president when tragedy happened in america and two wars resulted afterwards. isn't it kind of crazy to think that anybody can get out from presidential presided over such historic time? >> i wrote four books about bush's wars. some of it worked some did not work like the iraq war. and refighting this doesn't work. this is not on people's minds. they want to know, are we going to be safe now not whether we were or weren't in the past. and i thihi, again, republican party has certain gravitational pull that developed and let's do

win the presidency. the polling and common sense will take you away from trump getting the nomination. i think as i was saying, who can stand up and say, i like ronald reagan, not donald trump. >> very quick point that bob said. another example, this is another example of fighting about the wrong subject. should be discussing the role of interventionism. in 9/1/1talk about what do we do to defend ourselves from terrorists without hurting or damaging the constitution. this fight just rehash of something that happened, not going to fix it by talking about it over and over again. >> dickerson: we had fundraising numbers out, what do you make of those numbers, any dark horses coming out with a lot of money? >> we don't see the super pac numbers. i think ted cruz still doing well there. the fight over who has 12

20 million does not matter. presidential politics is about -- getting on the news, driving your message, being a good candidate matters so much more than raising money for television ads. i think it's all a bititilly and focus is a bit silly. jeb bush said the ads are going to save him that's what's going to bring him back, no candidate can be revived with an ad. got to speak to the aspirations of the american people. >> what it has become proxy for this fight, we talked about earlier between marco rubio and jeb bush, fighting over who ised more money, i got more than you, no you didn't because they both want to try to she they're in@the strongest position so that when votersf voters do turn away from donald trump and ben carson they seem like the obvious choice. >> dickerson: with the american imagination talking abo dollars and ceces of money raraed, right? >> that's true. when you start doing that is

the money rule. it's corrupt. it's a process that -- this is one of the things i think bernie sanders and democratic debate made really good point about people are being bought and sold. >> dickerson: e last question to you nancy is paul ryan, the question for who is going to be the speaker of the house. where does that stand before republicans come back to town? >> there is some news on that front. that is that after weeks if not years of saying go no way, no how, paul ryan is now telling those close to him that he is open to running for speaker. but there is a big caveat, which is that he's not going to campaign for the suppo of these 40 or so very conservative members of the house freedom caucus. he says he's got record of conservative leadership either they believe in that record or they don't. the problem is they're looking for veryignificant concessions in exchange for their support. thth want new rules, for example, he says if he doesn't get the sense that they're going to be behind him he'll stay with

he is. as a chair of ways and means, which is some place he was very happy with. >> dickerson: got to come to him there's no real other alternative. thank you all for join can me today. we'll be right back with look at key player in the nixon whitete house. announcer: you tauaut him how to hit baseball. how to hit a receiver. the strike zone. the net. you taught him how to hit the upper corner. you even taught him how to hit the open man. but how much time have you spent teaching him...

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j. those of you who don't know the name alexander butterfield, watch this. >> any listeteng d dices in the oval office of the president? >> i was aware of listening devices, yes, sir. >> dickerson: that was july of 1937. in the step at watergate hearing, that is butterfield exposing publicly for the first time the existence of the secret whwhe house taping system thahat would ultimatelel bring down president nixon. it was a bombshell. butterfield is the subject of new book snoot last of the president's men" by famed "washington post" reporter bob woodward. bob is back with us now. the pause between fred thompson's question and butterfield's answer seems likee a lififime. why was his admission about the

taping system so important? >> it was knicks op's biggest seet. in fact nixon thought it would never be revealed. of course the tapes were -- supreme court said they had to be turned over to the prosecutors and investigated. they provided the evidence that rced nixonon to resign. nixon was forced to resign when he really look at it by the republicans who were -- as barry goldwater once told carl bernstein and myself. too many lies, too many crimes. that's what it was. >> dickerson: he was in tight circle that knew these tapes existed. kissinger didn't know, right, that the recordings existed. and so he knew that it would nail the president. why did he give them up? >> there's a long section in the book about this odyssey that he took.

bubuer field denies that. subconsciously maybe i did. ultimately our business we try to figure out why people do things and this gets to the answer bit you see this is story about power. this is about nixon's power and butter field, who had thatt place, office right next to the oval office for three years was witness, front row seat and when i started talking to butter field realized he had thousands of documents, some originals that he had taken out of the ite house, somee of thihi stuff for somebody who spent years looking at nixon is shocking. >> dickerson: that's what's so amazing. you covered watergate, found someone taking careful notes

period before the tapes exist. he was a pack rat, he had everything. >> he had lots. the real question is the management of the vietnam war. that war is index for -- tells us who we are to the world and to ourselves and the vietnam war still casts this giant shadow over the country. what happened in the vietnam war. there is this new memo which was buried, no one had ever seen it. i talked to people about it. no, it doesn't exist. there it is. >> dickerson: tell us what the $ilch memo is is. >> nixon in his ownwn handwriting in early '72 starting to run for re-election, saying that the bombing three years the bombing

always accomplished zilch, nothing. it was a total failure. of course this contradicts three years of pronouncements about thth importance of the bombing. the night before he wrote that he told cbs news dan rather that it was very, very effective. so it's a lie. it is a significant lie because then that year nixon increased and intensified the bombing in their tapes and documentsts that show that it really was done because bombing was popular, according to the polling. and nixon wanted to win re-election. there's some hair-raising conversations about this you find the bombing was not to win the war but t win the election. >> dickerson: in his own happened writing, he was pushing

other new method that would be more effective. >> he wanted to study. i asked kissinger, he said he doesn't remember the specific memo. he said that nixon was frequently asked, i'll show you 50 memos where nixon asked for more bombings. there is a -- i was in the navy in the late '60s and served on a ship off the coast of vietnam. there's a social contract between the commander in chief and everyone in the military. you do your job, i'll do my job. the job of the commander in chief is to protect the militarar if we'e' engaged in n rs to try to win the war, not to use the means of dropping millions of tons of bombs to win re-election. that is monstrous behavior. if there was a memo now that

these drone ststkes wheree said we've done all these strikes for years. we've achieved zilch that became public, people -- he might be finished. >> dickerson: that is the big monstrous behavior. what your book also categorizes or details and butterfield is the small ways which nixon was just a very strtrge character, tell us a authen butterfield first comes into the job, hauledder man is his job, he won't introduce butterfield to nixony? >> it has there has to be briefing memo he had to do it at a moment that was not planned so xon didn't know it was going to happen. there was no talking point. now this new deputy chief of staff is going to be here. nixon couldn't talk.

ups department after incident where you see nixon, lonely, haunted by the past. every little spikekeeems to be remembered when hehe was on wall stre. after being vice president for eight years. he rants and raves about those people who are my law partners, the sobs did one of them ever invite me to his country club to play golf. did he ever invite me to -- nixon unfortunately for him andnd for the country never relaxed. he was --ever sensed, gee, there's some goodwill out there even among democrats because they want you to succeed so it was always this war. he was haunted by jfk, john f f kennedy pictutus that were discovered in the staff offices

called it infestation. butterfield had to conduct an investigation. he wrote nixon a memo subject,

>> dickerson: fascinating book. we'll be right bacac i'm a wife a sister and a grandfather i'm an office clerk i'm a research analyst dance fitness instructor actor i'm a copywriter i'm a veteran i have lupus cerebral palsy i'm blind and i'm working in a job i love i love because i was given a chance to contribute my skills and talents to show that my disability is only one part of who i am who i am who i am at work, it's what people can do that matters

>> dickerson: before we go a quick programming note. on thursday you can watch all of hillary clinton's testimony for house benghazi committee starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern 5:00 on our digital outlet cbsn. until next week for "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by

access.w.wh.org aptioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] sharyl: good morning. i'm sharyl attkisson. welcome to "full measure." thursday, hillary clinton faces the house select committee on benghazi.

the former secretary of state