this sunday, what do the events sweeping the mid east mean for america's fragile economic economy, as gas prices spike around the country? and the budget battle in washington. the latest proposal is unacceptable and it's indefensible. the white house and republicans are far apart on how deeply to cut govovernment spending. but is there an opening to fix budget-busting programs like social security and medicare? i'll ask my exclusive guests this morning, white house chief of staff william daley. and is the tea party creating division amongst republicans or laying the foundation for successful challenge for the president in

2012? we have the head of the tea party caucus in the house, republican from minnesota, michele bachmann. finally, politically analysis on the crisis in libya, the spending fight in washington and new moves of potential gop contenders for 2012. of with us, eugene robinson and columnist for the "new york times" and author of the new book, "the social animal," david times" and author of the new book, "the social animal," david brooks. captions paid for by nbc-universal television from nbc news in washington, "meet the press," with david gregory. morning morning, a positive sign for the economy this week, as unemployment fell to 8.9%, the third consecutive month it's decli decli declined, but gas prices on the rise across its country. here with us live for an exclusive interview, the white house chief of staff, bill daley. president obama chose him for the top job in january, you'll

recall after his predecessor rahm emanuel left the post to run for chicago. he is no stranger to washington and politics, chairman of al gore's 2000 presidential campaign, and before that, commerce secretary under bill clinton. most recently, was an executive at jpmorgan chase, and now brings his savvy to a white house trying to repair relations with the community. in the two months since taking the post, daley has been courting corp rot leaders and a key voice at the table during the budget battle. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good to be here. >> good to have you here. let's talk about the economy and what's front and center in people's minds. unemployment numbers down, yes, but look what's happening as you go to the turn around the country and getting that sticker shock. across the country, the national average for regular gas, it stands at $3.50 now up from last sunday from last month and up significantly from last year at

this point in the cover of the economist magazine sums up the global account of all this, just as the world economy was recovering. what does $100 barrel of oil mean to the economic recovery. >> an increase in oil and the uncertainty in the middle east has caused uncertainty in affecting the price of energy. the president is extremely concerned about this. we've -- our economic team has been working with international organizations to make sure that we're coordinated. there is also not only uncertainty in the middle east, you have an increasing demand worldwide, as the economic difficulties of the last three years improve. and as you mentioneded, we have seen an increase in the economy. >> but you have a glut of oil around the world. is there a concern or belief that the recovery can weather a strike in prices? >> well, i think there's a sense that this recovery is real and strong and growing, but there

are factors like the price of energy that can have an impact. in addition, there is pain, people are getting back to work as you mentioned, but the normal average american out there is feeling it. and so the president is very concerned. we're trying to look at all of the possible options going forward. we're very proud of -- tbe honest with you, the president oversaw a very successful agreement between the auto industry on fuel economy standards that will increase savings of about a billion, 800 million barrels over the term of the agreements between the auto industry and our government. we're on a strong program between now and 2015 to make america the center of building capacity for batteries that will be used in the new cars of the future, from 4% to over -- >> what about the shorter term? does the president -- strategic

reserve, is the president considering doing something that can arrest that spike? >> well, we're looking at the options. there's -- the issue of the reserves is one we're considering. it is something that only is done -- has been done in very rare occasions. there's a bunch of factors that have to be looked at. and it is just not the price. again, the uncertainty -- i think there is no doubt that the uncertainty in the middle east right now has caused tremendous increase in the last number of weeks. >> but it's on the table, which i think is significant. >> well, all matters have to be on the table when you go through -- when you see the difficulty coming out of this economic crisis we're in. and the fragility of it. >> i want to ask more about the recovery, but i want to stay with oil and the crisis in the middle east. over the weekend, fighting in libya has expanded. we have pictures from an area, the northern part of libya also fighting among rebels, as we get closer into tripoli. the president this week said

moammar gadhafi has got to go. my question is this. is getting rid of gadhafi a vital u.s. interest? >> i think stopping the violence, first of all, that's occurring in libya is most important. the president has been very aggressive. we froze -- we initiated sanctions quicker than we have ever done in the past. froze $30 billion of gadhafi's money in the u.s. we have been very aggressive in our coordination with the international community in looking at all options. and we have also been very aggressive in bringing humanitarian aid to the region, to help people. there's a tremendous -- >> but it hasn't stopped gadhafi. >> it has not stopped them. there's no doubt. >> is it in america's vital national interest that gadhafi is gone? >> it is in -- gadhafi should go for the people of libya. he should stop this, as the president said. he should stop the slaughtering of the people in these battles. but if we can't define if it's in our vital international

interest, doesn't it say how far we're willing to go to get him out? >> i think the international community is going to come together. there is discussions going on right now, they have been going on for the last number of weeks to try to have a coordinated effort to bring pressure on gadhafi. from the entire world to say stop this, it is in the world's interest that this sort of action be stopped. and we're part of that community. >> but it sounds like the administration is more divided. the secretary of defense, gates, said let's not mess around here. if you're going to do a no-fly zone, we have to bomb their air defenses. that's a big step. the president does not sound like he is eager to do. >> lots of people throw around phrases like no-fly zone, and talk about it as though it's just a game on a video game or something. some people who throw that line out have no idea what they're talking about. bob gates understands the difficulty of going to war. this is a man who spent his -- almost his entire life working for the government. he knows the difficulty of war,

and the challenges as does adderal admiral mullen. the president knows the ultimate decision he has to make at times is to put men and women in harm's way, and you do that only with great consultation with your allies. you do that in a way that can protect those young men and women. and so at this point, as the president said, all options are on the table. but this has to be an international effort. it cannot be done by one country. >> is it or is it not in our vital interest that gadhafi goes? why does it matter to america? >> it does matter -- as human beings, as the president has said, his policy is, first of all, there should be no violence in these changes that are going on in the middle east. he has to protect the basic human rights, and in the end, there has to be a process, both political and economic for the people in these christophe some

opportunity of real change. >> but nobody can force him out unless we lead the way. >> well, that is a statement that may or may not be true right now. i don't think you know that, i don't think i know it. and the world doesn't -- >> let me ask you, if we look at the map of the broader middle east here, we've talked about tripoli and libya, but as you look across the map, and particularly the persian gulf states, there's a lot of anger at this administration. the saudis in bahrain and the uae, where you've got sunny sunni governments, where they say we're not going allow a shy eat government to take over. this is a sectarian president in the middle east. do they understand the limits? and the limits are the realities of our oil interest and stability in that part of the world? >> the president -- what's been amazing about the changes going on in the middle east is they truly are bottom-up. they're not top-down. the president went to cairo almost two years ago and laid

out his principles on reform in the middle east. a rather courageous statement too long to go to the middle east and do this. and what you're seeing is aspirations of the young people he talked to two years ago. so change is coming. it's not something we can oversee and dictate. it has to be done by the people in these governments, each one is different. what's been obvious since these changes began in tunisia two months ago is each country is very different. thief they've got to do it in a way that protects the basic rights of people. and the third principle of the president is end up with a governance that allows the political process and the political desires and economic desires of the people to be fulfilled. but it's up to the people in these countries to do that. and hopefully do that in nonviolent ways. >> let me ask you about afghanistan. there's been a meeting with president karzai and our

commander general petraeus in light of a bombing that killed nine kids, a nato bombing. petraeus apologized. the and you have this morning president karzai saying the civilian casualties are no longer acceptable and general petraeus's apology is simply not enough. what has to be done to keep this partnership viable? >> well, president obama spoke with president karzai recently. no question. we feel terrible about, and not only the general, the president has stated his sorrow over this tragedy that occurred. obviously, these -- these are difficult actions when you're in the middle of a war. we went to afghanistan in order to get rid of al qaeda, and our goal is to leave -- and the president's goal is to begin to leave in 2011. >> have we done irreparable harm, though? >> no one feels worse than the people involved in this tragedy. and the military leadership in

afghanistan. and our government. >> let me turn to domestic affairs and that's the budget baths at home. first, a piece of our wall street journal poll, what's the top priority from the voters' perspective? it's interesting, job creation still by a 15-point margin. the top concern followed by the deficit and dealing with the debt. does the president take away from numbers like this that the deficit can wait? >> no, of course it can't wait. our -- and that's why he's taken all the steps he has. this is a president who put a budget out -- forward that has frozen spending, is going to cut the deficit over $1 trillion over the next 20 years. so he's been very cognizant of the fact that we've got to get our fiscal house in order. no one has taken more steps out, no one has put a plan out for '11 and '12 that begins to bring the deficit down. there's a lot of talk around the

country about it, but no one but the president has taken steps to do that. >> a government shutdown has been averted for now, but it's only a couple weeks. and, you know, white house says a lot about how it's meeting republicans halfway. the reality is, you're very far apart. there's a lot of fuzzy math on both sides. the reality is, you are far apart on cutting spending for this particular year. how do you bridge this and avoid a shut down in two weeks? >> i would take exception. we're not that far apart. we're at over $50 billion in cuts. the house passed the hr-1, which was $100 billion. so we're over halfway there. >> a vote they're relies on numbers, on a budget that was never passed, it's easy to pass that past the american people. the reality is you're 1/6 of the way there. however you slice it, there's a big divide, and you know it. >> however you slice it, there is a challenge to our government. first of all, no business out there would be at the end of their first quarter and not have a budget for the year they're in, much less putting a budget forward that's for '12. we are only seven months away

from the end of this fiscal year, and we don't have a budget, which is kind of ridiculous. no company could get away with that. we have had -- vice president biden had a discussion with the four leaders. i think there's total agreement that no one wants a shutdown of this government. that doesn't help our economic recovery. it will do only harm to the economic recovery, and as you're having the energy prices increase, it makes it even more ridiculous. >> but your meeting with speaker boehner, you're in these discussions. are you worried he's not driving the train here? i'm going to be talking to congressman bachmann about this. the view is they are driving the leadership so far he may not be able to control it. >> the last thing i would ever do is speculate about the speaker's ability to control his caucus. my sense is, and i have great admiration for him, i think there is no question that he understands that as speaker, he not only speaks for his party, he leads the house of representatives. and that -- they in the senate have to get together and agree on a budget.

or this government doesn't fund itself, and we look ridiculous. >> what are the chances that you don't reach consensus and that there is a shutdown? >> i think -- i'm very optimistic that there will not be a shutdown. i don't think -- my one hope, though, to be very frank with you, and one fear is, along with us coming to resolution on the numbers and the economics around this, there are also in the house a number of political statements being made about amendments or add-ones to the bill that address political statements that people want. political -- >> funding epa or -- yeah. >> it's beyond that. and my sense is that we've got to ask each of the members of congress, are you going to do a shutdown if we don't come to economic compromise? or are you going to do a shutdown based on some of these political -- whether it's health care, environmental laws they don't want to see enforced and a host of other things, which would be unfortunate. >> the big driver of the deficit, as you know, social

security, medicare, those are the real budget-busters. and it was interesting, speaker boehner gave an interview to the "wall street journal." he said thursday, he's determined to offer a budget this spring that curbs social security and medicare, despite the political risks and the republicans would try to persuade voters sacrifices are needed. he said house republicans would offer a budget for the next fiscal year that gets gold for bringing the programs costs under control. is this an opening? did they talk and say let's do something together? >> the president has been saying for quite a long time, we've got to not only address our current budget problems, we've got to get to these large -- i would take some exception with your statement. social security is not the big driver of the deficit right now. we've got to strengthen social security for the recipients of that. but the -- but you correctly said, it's medicare and medicaid that are the major driver. we have an aging population, increased health care costs. and we also say, you know, there's been much debate, much conversation around the health care plan, the affordable care

act, that, according to the congressional budget office, will reduce our deficit by over $1 trillion over the next 20 years. >> makes a lot of assumptions how that will be funded down the road. there's a you-first attitude. i know the feeling in the administration, let's let the republicans go forward and produce all of these savings for the entitlements. let them do it first. and then we get into a political season, and then they can be demagogs on that, and the way you guys feel you were on health care. >> well, but the president doesn't feel that way. the president had conversations with speaker boehner, leader cantor, congresswoman pelosi, mcconnell and reed, senators mcconnell and reed. he's not going to play the washington games. i think the american people are sick and tired of it, tired of the partisanship. and if anything thinks out of this last election the american people were voting for more partisanship, more saying no, i think they're going to have a rude awakening in the next election. >> as you know, financial reform was much debated here in

washington and when you were at jpmorgan chase, it was a significant concern in wall street and the financial community. and so this caught our attention during the oscars, the director, charles ferguson of "inside job," the documentary about the financial collapse, in accepting his oscar, said the following. >> forgive me. i must start by pointing out that three years after a horrific financial crisis caused by massive fraud, not a single financial executive has gone to jail. and that's wrong. >> does the president agree that's wrong? >> i think the president -- no one has been more out front on the need for financial reform. obviously, the justice system will take its place and the politicians should not engage in trying to say who should be prosecuted or who should not. that's not a responsible thing to do. so you have a number of justice -- attorney generals moving forward on cases that are legitimate. but the president felt very

strongly. and that's why he fought so hard for financial regulatory reform. that the system has got to change. most of the laws of the financial sector worked under were enacted closer to the civil war than to this century, and he fought -- it was tough, to be honest with you. i was in an industry at the time, as you mentioned, that fought many of it, not all of it, probably 80, 85% of it, the industry wanted. they wanted to stop too big to fail and a number of other things. but it was controversial, difficult, but he hung in there and got what he wanted. statement of leadership. >> do you think it's legitimate for people to say that some of those ceos on wall street should have gone to jail? >> look, i don't know if it's legitimate or not. people have a right to say what they want. but i think if you're an elected official, you should allow the justice system to take over and move forward. and when there are prosecutions, that's up to that system it. politicians should not get involved. producers, directors can do that, but politicians shouldn't get involved. >> couple minutes left. i do want to ask you about politics and the re-election

campaign for 2012. you'll be chief of staff, presiding over that campaign. is the president moving to the center to win re-election? >> no, the president doesn't look -- this is a guy who does not look at politics in left, center, whatever. he really doesn't. he looks at things, deals with the problem right in front of him. and i've never participated in -- even back when i was co chair of his campaign in '08, discussion that is were around that. there's no question, the difficulties of the first two years, he had to take action. but he didn't want to do -- as he said, he didn't want to run an auto company. that was the last thing in the world he thought he was being elected for president to do. but he had to do it to save 1 million jobs. and that was criticized by many people in the business community. many people thought oh my god, this is socialism, whatever. he saved those jobs. general motors last month had one of its strongest months in decades of profitability. and that showed the wisdom of that decision. >> do you still believe -- you said last year that there was a -- this administration got it

a little bit wrong, that the country was center-left, not left. do you still believe it's a center-left country? >> i think -- what i was commenting on was the election of 2008, and i think it showed there was a center-left. but this president doesn't think that way. some of us who ponticate talk that way, but he doesn't. and when you look at the actions he took over the last two years, they have been center, at times people can interpret them however they want. but the fact is, they have been focused on trying to create an economy that's stronger, trying to win the future, as we get in this -- as recovery comes back, and our competition, as the president said, is not amongst ourselves, it's amongst the rest of the world. >> are you concerned with ambassador hudson making moves, have you given him a talking to? >> i think there's been a lot of speculation about him. he's said he's going to resign the end of april. but we're -- he's done an

excellent job on behalf of the obama administration. and we think -- >> are you upset that he is still there, talking about the presidency? >> i have not heard or seen any direct quotes from ambassador had you had sorngs which would obviously be inappropriate. his support of the president, the things he did on behalf of the administration and the closest in which he worked with the president is most appreciated. and i'm sure he'll talk about that in the primaries. >> if he runs. finally, is mit romney the most formidable republican? >> i don't know. the president also -- what i admire about him, he doesn't spend a lot of time talking about this. of. >> he did talk about mitt romney. >> he did talk about mitt romney. the fact is, you know, we've got enough issues to deal with and not worry about who is going to be the republican nominee. there will be a republican nominee at some point. we'll deal with it next year. the concern now is creating jobs, giving confidence to the american people this recovery is real, and doing the things that

fortify their belief, which is the truth, that this is the greatest country in the world, and the opportunities in this country going forward are there for them. >> where do you think unemployment has to be for him to be re-elected? >> i don't know. there's so many factors involved. obviously, we're happy that -- very pleased that the trend seems to be moving forward. not because of a re-election, because you are given opportunities for families to have jobs, and people of the future and hope. that's what it's about. i know we can be pretty cynical in this town, but normal people out there in america, the last thing they're thinking about right now in 2012. >> we'll leave it there mr. daley, thank you very much. coming up, one of the most outspoken critics of the president, tea party faithful. now she is fired up about overspending. he will talk to the head of the tea party caucus in the house, congresswoman michele bachmann from minnesota. and then eugene robinson from "the washington post" and david brooks of "the new york times."

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welcome to "meet the press." >> thank you, david. >> nice to have you. you heard the chief of staff, bill daley, say that he's optimistic that it's possible to avert a government shutdown. are you as optimistic as he is? >> well, i'm hopeful. i don't think anyone wants to see the government shutdown. but it is shocking the revelations of all the money that's been spent. there is a congressional research service report that just was issued in february, and we discovered that secondly secretly, over $105 billion was hidden in the obama care legislation to fund the implementation of obama care. this is something that wasn't known. this money was broken up, hidden in various parts of the bill, and we have worked very hard to discover $61 billion in cuts that we could put forward, get to the president, so in effect, david, we have taken one step forward and two steps back, because we've found now, that $105 billion -- >> all right. but -- congresswoman --

>> implemented. >> you heard the president talk this week to opt out of the individual mandate where necessary to taylor to their own states. >> david, that's not a give at all. all that is, is a pretext for implementing a single payer plan. if you recall, the president's entire statement, he said the states can opt out as long as they stay within the requirements of all of obama care, unless they want to go with a single -- again, from the very beginning, it has been said that obama care is a crime against democracy. it has been a deception from the beginning. remember, the president told us that it was a mandate, not a tax. now in the federal court, he's arguing it's a tax, not a mandate. we were also told our premiums would go down $2,500, and instead they're spiking up by 20 and 40%. this has been a fraud. >> let me get in here. i want to stick with the narrow budget questions.

are you willing to vote to shut down the government over some of these add-ons to these spending bills to defund funding for the health care legislation, for planned parenthood, for the epa? >> i think the deception that the president and pelosi and reid put forward with appropriating over $105 billion needs to be given back to the people. there was no debate. there was no discussion. $105 billion is a lot of money. you can't just slip that into a bill. and not tell members of the house and not tell members of the senate, and then when they go to vote for the bill, did it just slip harry reid's mind? >> congresswoman, my question is a very direct one. will you vote to shut down the government over those riders? >> i think that president obama needs to give back that $105 billion that they already appropriated. they have tied the hands of congress for the next eight years, david.

they already appropriated this money. members of congress didn't even know this money was in the bill, because we couldn't read the bill before it was passed, because it wasn't given to us but hours before we had to vote for it. that's why speaker pelosi famously said, we have to pass the bill to know what's in it. members of congress weren't even given the courtesy of time to read the bill. this $105 billion has to be given back before we can start any other discussions. >> let me ask you about some tea party criticism of speaker boehner. "usa today" reported friday, tea party leader blasts boehner over cuts. the founder of one of the largest tea party groups says house speaker boehner looks like a fool. boehner's inability to negotiate larger cuts should prompt the tea party candidate to run against him in 2012 in a gop primary. it sprang up in '09 in reaction

to insane spending phillips wrote in his blog wednesday. in 2010, the american people spoke, demanding change. everyone realizes the level of spending cannot be sustained. john boehner did not get that message. has boehner failed the tea party? >> the main message that's going across the internet today among members of the tea party, they are outraged about this $105 billion that was deceptively put into -- >> congresswoman, you made your point. i'm asking you a direct question here about whether you think, as head of the tea party caucus, whether boehner has failed to live up to the tea party's expectations. >> i think what we are trying to do as republicans in the house is look for every place we possibly can to cut spending. we have identified $100 billion in cuts off of the president's proposed budget. $60 billion if you compare it to the 2010 budget. so we have done our part to look for cuts. but we can't -- we can't end there. we have to also demand that we claw back the $105 billion that was deceptively already

appropriated by president obama. >> the speaker has said that it would be irresponsible not to raise the debt limits, as will be called for soon. will you agree with him on that and do that? >> i am not in favor of raising the debt ceiling. in the last ten years, we have raised the debt ceiling ten times. we are just giving the congress a license to keep on spending. and one thing the american people are demanding, because they want to see jobs created, they want to see the economy get on a good footing, in order to do that, government has to take less so that the american people can keep more. >> the issue of the tea party and backlash among voters against the tea party is an interesting area. because conservatives and certainly leaders and tea party folks have said, look, there was a mandate from the 2010 election. and that was to cut spending. and yet you have this from analysis from our "wall street journal" nbc news poll, written by "the wall street journal" on thursday. among those most fearing spending cuts, they reported, were younger voters, independents, seniors, and

suburban women. groups that include many swing voters in national elections who potentially could turn against the gop. quote, it may be hard to understand why someone would try to jump off a cliff to solve the debt crisis. pollster mr. bill mcenterp, unless you understand they are being chased by a tiger accident and that tiger is the tea party. are they being chased off the cliff? >> i think the political left has been very afraid of the tea party movement, because it is not necessarily political. it's not democrats or republicans. it's made of up very broad based coalition. it's made up of people who want the country to work again. they believe that we're taxed enough, that government shouldn't spend more money than what it's taking in, and that each of the agree branches of government should act within the jurisdictional limitations of the constitution. that's a broad-based group of people. they just want our country to work again, and i think that that coalition is hanging together, more strongly now than ever. >> you've talked about foreign

policy and been critical of this president and his handling of the situation in the middle east. i want to play something that you said back in january while in des moines about the future of this country and ask you about it. i'll play it first. >> the question, quite frankly, is this. will america endure? and i don't say this mellow dramatically. and i don't say this to scare you or to say it lightly. because tonight i think the answer isn't graved out. >> can you say specifically what you mean about it being engraved out? >> well, i believe the context of the remarks is regarding the economy. with the amount of spending and deficits that we are accumulating, that does put america's national security interests at risk, because when we have foreign nations holding a tremendous amount of our debt, $1 trillion, nearly, in the cease of china, that can have national security implications. we do not serve our american interests well when we put

ourselves in the hands of creditors. >> what about the handling of by this president of events in the middle east? is it your view that it's in america's vital security interests to remove moammar gadhafi from power in libya? >> i think that it's been troubling, the way that the president has responded. for instance, in libya, during the unrest, we had at least 600 americans who were there. the chirn chinese were in the process of removing 12,000 chinese, while the americans were waiting to be removed from lib yeah. i think recently in germany, we saw two military soldiers killed by alleged terrorists this week, and i think the president's response, at minimum, was lacking. we need to send very strong signals. i'm concerned about the signals the president has sent. >> congresswoman, my question -- my question -- is it in me america's vital interest to remove moammar gadhafi from power? >> well, that question, i think,

is one that -- as -- as defense secretary gates has said, we need to be very careful about putting an army on the ground in the middle east. we are extended now in afghanistan and iraq, and i think for us to consider further penetration at this time, we need to listen to general petraeus and what he has to say. >> let me ask you about 2012. this is talk that you're considering a run for the presidency. and i wonder what you make of how people react to you. a lot of people think that you are an extremist, somebody who, you know, as you have done in the past, called the administration a gangster government. is far more interested in fueling anger than becoming something of a consensus politician who can attract widespread support. how do you react to all that? >> i haven't made a decision either way about plans for 2012. what my concern is, is that our country move forward, and that we regain a sound financial

footing. i don't believe that barack obama has done a good job as president of the united states. i think that's barriered out statistically from the out of control spending and deficits. the economy is simply not improving. consider, the day before the president took office, gasoline was $1.83 a gallon. there are places today in the united states where it is over $4 a gallon. it didn't help that the president had the interior secretary cancel 77 oil leases as soon as the president came into power. we can do so much better. and that's what i'm talking about with people in the next few months. we need to think very strongly. a second administration of jimmy carter wouldn't have done this country any favors. we need to make sure we don't have a second barack obama administration. >> you referred to the obama administration as a gangster government. of you've said that this president has anti american views. do you believe that still? >> i believe that the actions of

this government have been emblematic of ones that have not been based on true american values. just consider obama care. over 900 waivers have been given out to unions and protected special interests. >> is it appropriate to refer to the government as a gangster government, and to question whether this president loves america? >> well, i said -- i do believe that actions that have been taken by this white house -- i don't take back my statement on gangster government. i think that there has been actions that have been taken by this government that i think are corrupt. >> you think the president has anti american views? >> well, i've already answered that question before. i said i had very serious concerns about the president's views. and i think the president's actions in the last two years speak for themselves. >> when will you decide about a run for the presidency? >> i think there's a normal course of events when a decision like that will be made. and if i choose to go down that road, i'll make the decision. >> congresswoman bachmann, we will leave it there. thank you very much.

>> thank you. coming next, potential gop presidential hopefuls inch closer to a decision, but what will it take to beat president obama in 2012. also numbers out from our "wall street journal". how has the president handled the crisis abroad and the economic recovery at home. david brooks from "the new york times." "meet the press" is brought to you by: bank of america. helping set opportunity in motion in communities across the country. opportunity can start anywhere. and go everywhere. to help revitalize a neighborhood in massachusetts, restore a historic landmark in harlem, fund a local business in chicago, expand green energy initiatives in seattle. because when you're giving, lending and investing in more communities across the country, more opportunities happen.

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less? 51% said do more. 46% say it's already doing too many things. and this is the crux of the debate over reining in government spending. >> the government doesn't know what it wants. the country wants more government and is will to go pay for it. the question is, how do you get out of that situation? it's going to take a campaign to explain to people with pie charts and all the rest, here's what we've got, here's what's coming, where do we cut? and as you said earlier, neither party wants to go first. i spoke to a bunch of republicans yesterday, and they are sort of -- talked themselves into taking on entitlements in some form, and now they have taken the step off the cliff and they're saying, how are we going to do that? and they haven't quite figured that out. the democrats, meanwhile, and the white house just sort of hanging back, playing rope-a-dope, and letting them go forward. the down part of the strategy is the president looks passive in this debate and there's some weakness there. >> gene, if republicans are dominating the debate, which is

overspending, the white house would like to creep drawing them over and maybe force them as i asked congresswoman bachmann to shut down the funding of planned parenthood, for instance. but there is this split between republican leadership and the tea party caucus, who is driving the train here. that. >> is the more interesting split, can speaker boehner and majtd majority leader cantor control the rank and file, especially of the tea party freshmen, who might want to flash and burn in a way that does shut down the government. and nobody knows the political ramifications from that. one interesting thing from that poll, david, while we had this almost equal split, should government do more or less, one thing that was clearer is that people rank jobs and economic growth over deficit reduction as their priority. and i think that kind of -- it didn't back up republicans this week, but it made people pay attention. >> i'm curious about whether republicans realize that -- it

doesn't seem to me that message is resonating. that is, if we don't deal with our fiscal problem, we have uncertainty, and therefore the economy can't grow. that's the line that they're drawing through it. and you see from our polling, people want that focus on immediate job creation, and that gets the president's point, which is you've got to get the balance right. you can't grow if you keep cutting so much. >> yeah, you've got to have some priorities. i'm not sure they've gotten there. for example, you can say we're going to cut, but we're not going to cut things that invest in our future. we're going to cut things that are consumption. or we're going to cut -- and this is the politically hard part, but the unavoidable point. we're going to take money away from affluent seniors, and we're going to direct it to young people who are learning the most. we're going to transfer money to those who we can really invest in. and that's the politically difficult thing. the fact is, we have a redistribution machine sending money from the young to the old. we've got to reverse that. >> i want at that talk beyond the budget and this crisis in the middle east. gene, i do think the vital question is, removing gadhafi in our vital u.s. interest. because if you answer yes to

that, then you can take the next step of some kind of military action. but we're in some sort of opaque zone here of how we feel about that. >> we are. and actually, david, i think you could say yes to that question. but then what do you do? i mean, to that end, do you really try to impose a no-fly zone? do you really want american boots on the ground? the rebels in libya are not exactly excited about the idea of a kind of u.s.-sponsored revolution. they're doing this themselves. i'm not sure how that would leave america stanng if we participate to too great an extent in what they're trying to do. these have to be, as the president says, i think he's right, these are home-grown move wants, and they have to expresses themselves that way. >> but there is conflict, david, between the fact that young people in the persian gulf states are going to look up and say, wow, the u.s. helped get mubarak out of there, they talked tough about gadhafi. we saw what happened in tunisia. but when it comes to these sunni

monarc monarchs, they're going to help them issue a performance but not going to push them out. >> and we're hedging. i don't think we should be hedging. no one wants to go in with boots on the ground. but we've got to at least express our principles clearly, that we're for democracy, we think autocracies are unstable, and we're for that kind of change. and we're always hedging nuances that nobody else pays attention to that makes us look passive. the problem with libya, we have gotten ours into a bad situation by imposing sanctions on gadhafi, essentially saying you've got to fight to the death because there is no way out for you, but then not doing the second step, which is actually removing him. so we boxed him in, and now he's fighting back. and we're sort of doing nothing. it's a phenomenally difficult problem, but we've got to at least express our values clearly. >> you know, in a sense, bahrain is really -- in a way, more interesting than libya or in some ways, more perilous for u.s. interests, because bahrain, you do have the sunni minority

monarchy, a shiite majority there, and what do the saudis do? the saudis are absolutely opposed to regime change in bahrain. and so what does the u.s. say and do in bahrain? >> i want to leave it there. we'll take a quick break and come back and talk about 2012. how republicans are shaping up, how the president in a lot of people's minds looks a little better this week, at least. more with our round table right after this. to give our war fighters every advantage. ♪ [ man ] to deliver technologies that anticipate the future, today. ♪ and help protect america, everywhere. from the battle space to cyberspace. [ female announcer ] around the globe, the people of boeing are working together. to give our best, for america's best. that's why we're here. ♪

but basically, i'm a runner. last year. (oof). i had a bum knee that needed surgery. but it got complicated, because i had an old injury. so i wanted a doctor who had done this before. and unitedhealthcare's database helped me find a surgeon. you know you can't have great legs, if you don't have good knees. we're 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. we're back. i want to talk about 2012, this is its generic matchup, which doesn't mean a lot. the president is slightly ahead of a republican candidate. it does better, i believe -- looking at romney, does better against romney or a tim pawlenty. but there's a lot of hand-wringing over whether republicans are up to the task. jonathan martin in politico writes this at the start of the week, which led a lot of the coverage, gop reality check, obama looking tougher to beat in

2012, having gone from did he say upon see to euphoria. wincing in the light of day, as they consider how difficult an incumbent president with a massive war chest is going to be, even with a still dismal economy. quote, i consider him a favorite, all be a slight favorite, underestimating president obama at their own peril. he knows about people underestimating politicians, like george bush, president bush. why? what's going on that republicans feel less confident? >> well, first of all, the president -- people -- independents vote on the basis of who they essentially think is confident. they have an overall image. and obama still has that image. and that has not been dented, even with all of the policy disagreement. so he has that advantage. then the second they take a look at their own field, and they sea weak united states up and down the line, conventional republicans have a lot of flawed candidates. the strongest, mitch daniels, from indiana, a manager, not the most exciting guy, but a

manager, and is in the fight, the fights in the next couple years, in the fight, not a retired guy. so i think he would be strong. but he may not run. so everyone else looks at the rest and say this is not a strong field. the one other thing i'm hearing about, people say in september -- not good enough, chris christie, the governor of new jersey. >> this is what the field looked like, if you look at the polling right now. huckabee and romney. huckabee has been decidedly strange in some of his comments this week, talking about, you know, where the president grew up, talking about natalie portman and single motherhood, et cetera. you wrote this week, as somebody who is looking at it from a left to center perspective. this is not as formidable of a lineup as one might have thought. >> no, i think the issue for republicans is, you maybe can beat obama, but you've got to have a candidate, you've got to have the right candidate. and i agree with david or perhaps going a bit further, i think it is a weak field, and i think it's -- it's indicative of that weakness, that everyone is waiting for a brand-new new

jersey governor who has done a lot of things, very dynamic, but who just got here five minutes ago, to get into the race and try to be president and carry the standard for the party. i think that that shows where we are. they don't like the guys they've already got. >> it's interesting, mitt romney, his biggest issues, he pushed for health care in massachusetts. i won't actually play the sound bite, but president obama this week, unleashed a vicious attack on him by complimenting him and saying, look, i agree with mitt romney about some of his approach to health care. it was last night that mitt romney talked to new hampshire, an important early voting state, and said this about health care. >> now, our approach next door, was a state plan, to address state problems, in ways that were unique to massachusetts. we were one of the laboratories of democracy. now, our experiment wasn't perfect. some things worked, some things didn't. some things i would change. of but one thing i would never do is usurp the constitutional

power of states with a one-size-fits-all federal takeover. i would repeal obama care. >> is that enough to sound like michele bachmann? yes, the michele bachmann who supports him? >> good in my state, not in the others? no. the individual mandate of the core of the republican criticism of it. and romney, the massachusetts plan, has the individual mandate. that's the core problem. i think his core message has to be to move off health care and talk about jobs, which he tried to do this week. the problem with that strategy is that right now, insurance premiums are skyrocketing. and so this is going to be a burning issue the next couple years. romney has to say, okay, we're pivoting off health care, we're going to talk about jobs and business management, all the other candidates want to talk about health care and the issue will be sort of live for them. >> and what is the proper response to a congresswoman bachmann on her full charge against health care that the president is going to have to mount in the course of the campaign? >> the president is going to have to -- first of all, talk about deficit reduction and say, you republicans say you want to

reduce the deficit. this reduces it by, you know, $1 trillion over the next 20 years. i'm the only one who has put that plan out there. he goes after individual republicans. mitt romney has a john kerry problem. so let me get this straight, you were before it, before you were against it, that sort of thing. and, you know, he -- and then he says, if you've got an idea, i'm willing to it talk about it. >> all right. we're going to leave it there. thank you both very much. be sure to visit our website this afternoon to watch our take two web extra with david brooks and read an excerpt of his new book, "the social animal." it will be on our website,s in msnbc.com. if it's sunday, it's "meet the msnbc.com. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com imagination carries us into the future... and helps doctors see what they couldn't before.

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