that i had with ryan on the hill. you look at that furious response on the right, it makes me wonder whether things get worse, whether the right gets more entrenched on some of these questions. >> i've been talking to people on the hill, and on both sides, there's actually not much public interest in the budget, to tell you the truth. the conservative groups, yes. but john boehner made a very bold statement when he came out against these conservative groups. which he needed to do for a very long time, because they have been using these more junior members to advance what they want to do. >> why now was my question. why did he decide now was the time to strike back? >> my view is this is a positive turning point. this is a substantial budget agreement, not forever, but at the same time i think it shows that the grown-ups in the republican party have basically prevailed the vote, 3-1 in the house. boehner taking on the tea party in a successful way, basically sending a signal that we are

losing votes, we, the republican party, are losing votes by the shutdown. so i see it as a positive turning point on immigration coming up. if boehner does the same thing on the debt limit. john podesta coming in. i served in the clinton administration when he was chief of staff. he talks to the congress, he'll do executive orders, he's good on process. i think it's a good turning point. >> we're going to come back with the rest of the roundtable with nancy and the rest in just a couple minutes, but let me take you to this interview i had this week exclusive with senator patty murray and congressman paul ryan. welcome, both of you to "meet the press." this is where republican and democratic peace was actually achieved, in this room? >> in the center of the capitol. >> what does this represent? is this a breakthrough for a sign of how little can be accomplished in that environment? >> i guess it depends on your perspective. what do you think? >> i think it's a step forward

that shows that there can be other breakthroughs in compromise if you take the time to know somebody, know what their passions are and know how you can work together. >> that's exactly right. >> a lot of government by crisis. >> we spent a lot of time just getting to know each other, talking, understanding each other's principles, and we basically learned that if we require another to violate a principle, we'll get nowhere and we'll just get gridlock. then we spent a number of weeks finding out where the common ground existed. we went through the budget. where is the waste, what common reforms can we do, what do we agree on? we wanted to make this divided government work, at least at a minimum basic functioning level, so we had the impetus to do that. >> do you feel like that's a change for you for a conservative caucus? you said on the floor that we've been at each other's throats, elections have consequences. you were on the ticket to try to defeat the president.

you felt you needed something different. >> well, sure. i wish i could go back and change the results of the election, but it is what it is. >> and we disagree on it. >> that's where we disagree. but government has to function, and we saw the specter of two possible government shutdowns in 2014, one in january, one in october. that's not good for anybody. that's not good for the country. >> liberals and conservatives are upset. liberals say you're negotiating on public terms. >> they couldn't believe i walked in the room with him. >> for a starting point. republicans have dictated budget negotiations over the last couple years. we're talking about across the board cuts. there's nothing big here, spending programs to get the economy going, that democrats think are really important, and jobless benefits don't get extended. >> we didn't get everything we wanted, but we did get certainty for the next two years. we're at a point where we're not going to tell everybody congress

is in a tailspin because we don't have anything. and a budget is about managing the country's resources so we can have the things i do care passionately about, whether it's education or health care or transportation infrastructure. we were not managing our country in a way to get the things i cared about. >> on the right, my colleague kelly o'donnell spoke to your colleague marco rubio. he calls this an unamerican deal. there are other conservatives from outside groups that said, look, you and others made a promise, across the board cuts. you're going back on that promise now, and there will be consequences, they warn. >> my reaction to that is the budget control act which created these cuts said, a dollar for auto pilot spending for a dollar sequester. we exceeded that. >> but not by much. >> we're not saying this is a massive agreement. it gets government working but it has $85 billion of savings

from what we call mandatory spending, the auto pilot part that congress all too often ignores to pay for $63 billion of sequester relief, half of which goes to defense, which is a big concern among republicans. you don't get everything you want in divided government. >> when senator rubio says it's unamerican, is that just because he's running for president, do you think? >> i'm not going to go into what marco rubirubio's motivations a for that, but we got a budget that keeps from raising taxes and keeping a budget for 2014 is what we wanted to do. >> the speaker of the house really teed off on some of these outside groups. >> they're using our members and they're using the american people for their own goals. this is ridiculous. >> a lot of people saw that and said, why now? why didn't he lay down that

gauntlet before? >> i think john just kind of got his irish up. he was frustrated these groups came out in opposition to our budget agreement before we reached a budget agreement. i was frustrated, too, but these are very important elements of our conservative family. i would prefer to keep those conversations within the family, and i think he was basically voicing his frustration with the opposition. >> do you share that? do you say, look, we have to compromise more? >> i think these groups are indispensable to keeping taxes accounted for. we all believe the same thing with respect to our ultimate goal. the budget i passed in march, that's what i really want. balance the budget, pay off the debt, don't raise taxes. but i know in this divided government, i can't get that budget and she can't get her budget she passed. to her credit, she passed a budget. she can't get that into law. we know that.

and we can either keep doing this and have shutdowns or we can look for common ground and get things down. >> there's a lot of what we haven't seen much before, right? i don't know if this is a k kum ba yah moment, but it passes for what we want on capitol hill. okay, that's a start. but now let's talk about the big, hard stuff. as paul rand said, this doesn't deal with the debt ceiling, it certainly doesn't deal with our entitlements that are drivers of the debt. you haven't taken on the hard stuff here, senator. >> i think what both of us feel very strongly, and i know i do, is that we can't take on the tough discussions unless we can learn to use the word compromise so that we can have that be a respected, trusted word in this congress. i come here with passionate things i care about. i know that chairman ryan comes with passionate things. but if we just sit in our corners and yell at each other, and that's all we get rewarded for, we'll never get to those big discussions about tax reform

or strengthening our entitlements or how we fund things in the future or immigration reform, or any of the other big challenges of our country. so what we're trying to do here is bring some respect to the word compromise, and if we can do that, i think it does pave the way for other people to do what we've done. >> so surprise me. meet in the middle on something really hard. maybe it's medicare, which you've worked hard on, or tax reform. where could you two reach common ground on something that you would at least mark as a starting point? >> first of all, we're actually starti starting to talk to each other, which is kind of new for this day and age. step number 2, this isn't a large agreement, but it's a symbolically large agreement. i would love to throw a couple more zeros at these numbers, but the fact we're doing this, passing bipartisan legislation. it passed the house 332-94, majority of both parties. that's a good step in the right direction. you have to crawl before you can

walk before you can run. i'm hopeful as a ways and means member as well that we can start moving tax reform. >> they didn't seem to want to move on it. >> tax reform? in the next year, we'll be moving tax reform because we think that's a key ingredient to getting people back to work and growing the economy. >> am i missing something? is there something on tax reform you would agree with with the chairman? >> the other day they said the tax reform is 100 years old, and it looks like it. >> could you agree on tax reform to rainot raise the deficit? >> anything you do would be revenue generated from that. that doesn't mean we couldn't find a compromise with that. it would be intense discussions. there were intense discussions here in this room. but yeah, you can find that ground. >> so what's going to happen on the debt ceiling? this comes up again in a few

months. another fight on that? >> we agreed the debt ceiling would not be part of this. i don't think our country wants to see another crisis and send our country into a tailspin. so we'll take that road when we get there. i defer to you. >> you're asking things that are unresolved, and the reason we did this agreement is we didn't want to bring those controversies into these talks. >> my question is as i talk to people around capitol hill, there is a sense, probably true among republicans, that the chance for a grand bargain, if this is a mini bargain, the chance for a grand bargain probably isn't going to happen with this president, especially with the overhang of health care and how divisive that still is. do you think that's fair, that's accurate? >> i think the grand bargain that puts everything into a whole lot of tough votes on the table is impossible to find at this point, but i do think we can take steps toward reaching a point where we deal with those tougher issues. >> you said earlier you didn't think the president was willing to moderate.

is that still your view? >> it actually is. >> he's behind this, though, right? >> he is behind this, and i think it's because we made this a common ground agreement and we're not tackling the really big challenges which we've been offering budgets to do that for years now. i just don't think that it's his interest to do that. i don't think he wants to do that. but i would rather not focus on the fact that we're not going to agree on these things, and that's why we talk about tax reform. maxim max baucus and dave campo are trying to work on tax reform. what we're looking for is get a foundation under this economy, create some stability, see where we can work together and then we can disagree on these other things. >> february of this year you were on "meet the press." >> here's the issue. if we keep kicking the can down the road and don't face up to these issues we have. we have a debt crisis ahead of us, and if we don't face these

right now, we have to face the kind of austerity they're imposing in greece. we're saying let's fix this now while we can do it on our own terms. >> you said that in february, that hasn't happened. >> i'm worried because the federal reserve is going to start tapering. they're going to go back to start normalizing their policy. interest rates have a tendency to rise under those situations and that makes our fiscal situation even worse. i'm very worried about it. there are two ways of tackling this fiscal problem. one, grow the economy, get people back to work through solid economic growth. two, do this type of comprehensive entitlement reform we've been advocating, but we have a huge difference of opinion on it. >> these guys have been warning about this, this austerity in greece, and it hasn't happened yet. you can talk so honestly to each other. >> i'll tell you what people i know feel and businesses i know feel, is the instability caused by congress to not even find a path forward together.

it creates uncertainty in the families. they've been furloughed because of sequestration. they don't know what we're going to do. i have a lot of important businesses in my state tell me that our credibility globally has been damaged by governing by crisis, and i think that people want us to focus on that. >> health care is the big battle, still, between republicans and democrats. 50% of those in our poll think it's still a bad idea. how does this survive politically? >> i am not one of those rooting for the failure of obamacare. i think it's incredibly important, i can tell you as chair of the budget committee, that we get a handle on our health care expenditures in the future. this is an important step forward. no one wants to go back to the point of having our insurance companies decide whether or not we get health care or not. i'm rooting for us to be able to make this work. >> understood, but how does it survive politically? 50% in our poll. they just think it's a bad idea. >> this is an area where we'll disagree, but i think as it's implemented and people do --

like a woman told me last weekend, that for the first time her 29-year-old son with a disability has insurance. she said for the first time in a long time, i sleep tonight. >> i think we have to replace this law. i believe we can have a system in this country where everybody has access to affordable health care, including people with preexisting conditions without a costly government takeover with more pree dfreedom. but we didn't yell at each other because we knew we would disagree on this issue. >> i think people will see the results of this law, meaning more security for themselves in terms of their own health care coverage. >> on our side of the aisle, we like the fact, for the economy, no shutdowns, we also don't want to have shutdown drama so we can focus on replacing obamacare, so we can focus on showing better ideas than this coming in. we don't think people like this law, we don't think it will get any more popular. we don't agree on that, so each

of us gets something out of this agreement that we think is good. most importantly, the country is not going to see she's shthese s and the government will get back to prioritizing spending. >> you have a chance to do a lot of things like talk about football and all that. >> we found common ground on russell wilson. he played for wisconsin, we like him. >> what else did you learn in this process that you would like to drive forward? >> you know, i think one of the things that doesn't happen and hadn't happened in a divided concourse is people listening to each other. one of the things we had to learn to do was listen to each other and to respect each other and to trust each other. a lot of discussions in this room, either one of us could have taken out and blown up and killed the other person on politically. we agreed from the start we wouldn't do that. very important to where we are

today. >> that's right. >> you agree? >> yeah. she's right. >> thank you both very much. appreciate the time. my conversation with the budget chairs, ryan and murray. we're going to talk more with the roundtable about the budget and the politics of the moment, especially with the president's second term, coming up a little later on. but when we come back here, government spy edward snowden. michael hayden, head of the security agency during 9/11. i'll ask mr. hayden what proposed changes in the nsa mean for americans in the future. plus, does edward we know why we're here. to chart a greener path in the air and in our factories. ♪ to find cleaner, more efficient ways to power flight. ♪ and harness our technology for new energy solutions. [ female announcer ] around the globe, the people of boeing are working together, to build a better tomorrow.

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and other fees and expenses may still apply, we stand by our word. now to the spying debate in america. a special task force is recommending a sweeping overhaul on the national security, including how it got its way with americans. what does this mean for intelligence gathering? i'm joined by general michael hayden, former director of the national security agency and cia. thank you for joining me this morning. >> good morning. >> the president wants to change the way how a lot of spying goes

on and the collection of data of americans. once you build a security state, to the extent it's built, how do you dismantle it? >> it's a good yes. it's a question i've been asking public audiences for two or three years. at what point do the things that were necessary at one time become less necessary, and who has the political coverage to step back some of the things that were quite appropriate for the situations of danger in which we found ourselves, but as we get better at this, as the threat changes, how do you draw back? it's a great question. and the element there that's required is courage. >> edward snowden is still a controversial figure. he was runner-up to pope francis as time person of the year. we'll talk to nancy gibbs about that in just a couple minutes. but as criticized as he is, and i do get that, who else was exercising a real check and balance on the access of this security state?

>> it's not surprising to you, probably, someone of my background says i didn't see the access. i saw the potential of problems. >> you don't see abuse. >> no, there is no abuse. by the way, i don't see any unlawfulness, either. this was all done according to the madsonian formula. the president authorized, the legislature lejs lagislated and court oversaw. we can have a legitimate argument whether it's wise, whether it's a proper balance between liberty and security, but there were no abuses. >> but there is a fundamental principle that's embedded in our revolutionary finding in the enlightenment, the inalienable rights of each individual for liberty, for privacy, and that the government can't invade my privacy without some reasonable suspicion. ryan wrote a piece in the new yorker about this.

here's what he writes. the nsa's collecting of data looks a lot like what facebook does, but it is fundamentally different. it in verts the crucial legal principle of probable cause. the government has been putting together a haystack with no reasonable position. >> we're protected against unreasonable search and seizure, all right? it doesn't say all searches must be based upon reasonable suspicion. so now unreasonable search and seizure depends upon the totality of circumstances in which you find yourself. and, david, i fully admit, look, snowden was important. he accelerated a debate. i think he misshaped the debate, but he certainly accelerated it. but the debate was coming. there are three things that are changing. number one, the nature of our enemy is changing. it used to be nation states. now it's individuals. that requires tremendous granularity that you didn't quite have to have when the problem was the soviet union.

the second thing that's changing is technology. that seems to be self-evident. the third thing is an understanding, a cultural understanding, as to what constitutes privacy and a reasonable expectation of privacy. look, privacy is that negotiated line between ourselves as unique creatures of god and ourselves as social animals. that negotiation continues all the time, and it's actually accelerating right now. so you have the nsa trying to deal with all three of these tectonics moving. that's really hard. >> it's not terribly worried about that, but what the government is worried about is not having another terror act on anybody's watch and the political repercussions. so the safe thing to do would be to say, you know what would be great, is if we just gathered everything up, that way we would be covered. if i'm a senator and say you're head of the nsa, i don't think this is legal. i'm concerned about this. what ability do i have as a representative of the united states, of the people in

congress, to shut you down? i can't even talk with anybody about it, this private program. >> that's been overstated in terms of what's going on. jim clapper wrote letters to congress in '09 and 2011 in which he explicitly said, hey, guys, we're getting it all, in terms of the met adata of phone calls. >> let me ask you about snowden because this is top of the mind for me. should there be any kind of deal for him, any kind of amnesty? >> i would strongly oppose that. look, i know there is a great fear he's got a lot more out there. >> will we ever know what he's got? the "new york times" says we won't this morning. >> i don't know. i really don't. >> what are the repercussions? >> he seems to have a negotiating edge on us because he has this overhang in terms of negotiating. i wouldn't do it. i understand the attraction, but i wouldn't do it because that simply motivates future snowdens

to do these kinds of things. >> if the government has all this data, our electronic fingerprint, as it were, inside this haystack. is there a way to encrypt that data? i've heard you can encrypt the data, and if the government wants access to it, then they need a warrant, essentially, to crack the encryption, to be able to look at it. >> first thing, it doesn't have all that data. the only place where we're really exhaustive or comprehensive is in the metadata of phone calls. i'm comfortable with it, but i understand others not being comfortable with it. i think the key, david, is what do you do with that data? how do you access it? under what provisions do you ask that data question? that might get the appropriate balance between privacy and liberty. >> to protect the democracy, do we have to be less safe in order to preserve our freedoms? >> yes. obviously. look, we can do more. and those who say it's a false choice between our liberty and

security, those folks aren't responsible for either. we make these kinds of choices all the time. the thing that we have to do is make it an informed and mature choice so we understand what is reasonable and not reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. look, david, the afternoon of september 11, i changed some things at nsa within my authority but based upon my understanding as to what was reasonable and unreasonable that afternoon compared to that morning. >> and the public does have to engage in this debate and make some decisions and put pressure on politicians as a result, whichever direction that goes. >> sure. >> general michael hayden, thank you very much. >> sure. >> i really appreciate it. when we come back, our roundtable comes back. they'll weigh in on edward snowden in this debate. should he have been it's as simple as this. at bny mellon, our business is investments. managing them, moving them, making them work.

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coming up, the roundtable is back. we'll talk more about the future of government spying. will the new limits of nsa have an impact on americans' privacy? the roundtable talks about it in one minute. i'm beth... and i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can.

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roundtable, nancy gibbs from time magazine. he's not the person of the year, but edward snowden was a significant figure. could we be having this debate without him? >> no, and we interviewed him for our piece, and he pushed the point that the public has to have an informed debate about the surveillance capabilities, and when the public doesn't even know what the government is capable of doing, that debate isn't possible. he felt like his purpose was to make it clear this is what's going on, this is what government is capable of and these are the implications of possible free citizenship. >> do you feel there would be too much political heat to pick edward snowden over pope francis? >> i think both make center stage. in the case of the pope, it is the one the president was talking about again this week about inequality and the implications of growth of poverty around the world and responsibilities people have about that. i think it's hard to argue that is not also a crucial

conversation. there are a lot of other reasons, too, i think the pope is a very significant figure, but there's no doubt edward snowden was significant. >> why didn't we have a debate on the steps the government was taking in the name of our security? >> we should have that debate, but i don't think snowden is a hero by far. i think he's caused a lot of damage to national security. who is he, 30 years old, a contractor, to decide that he discloses the strongest secrets in the u.s. government? so my view, yeah, there should be a debate. it should be a debate in the congress. i think it's legitimate, for instance, to have this foreign intelligence court that decides who gets kind of spied upon. but let me also put another word in. i'm not going to be very popular. i was a policymaker for a while. what our intelligence community and the nsa gives policymakers is very useful for the national

security of the united states. sure, you have to stop excesses, but to even think -- and i thought time's selection of the pope was great. but to even have snowden as somebody that is even being considered, i just don't see that. i think that's wrong. i don't think he's a traitor, but i think he should be prosecuted. nobody should have the right to disclose secrets, negotiations between our government on behalf of the people. >> we have a cloak and dagger judicious system with regard to congress here, and you have people who aren't informed enough to make a decision. >> i agree, i don't consider snowden a hero, but time wanted to consider him -- >> it's about impact. >> it's about impact. his impact is significant not only in terms of our diplomatic

relationships around the world, but putting it on the table, he has shifted the conversation politically as well. we do need to have this conversation, but he's had perhaps an unexpected effect, which is to alienate the millenials from the president, and they're less enchanted with him now primarily because of this surveillance issue. i think the key, what's missing from the conversation up to this point, has been transparency. you might be able to convince americans that some of this is necessary, but you ought to tell them you're doing it and why you're doing it. >> here is one key form the president may or may not adapt, which is this metadata, the digital thumbprint, basically, the calls and things you visit could be warehoused by a third party, the phone company, but not by the government, which may be something the president will adopt. >> that's a fascinating idea, but think about it. we're now going to trust the

phone company with this data. >> the phone company has always had it. >> they've always had a certain amount of data and you always have this push and pull. it's almost like offense and defense in football. someone develops a new play and the defense comes back. we're at a point now where general hayden in that very good interview you had acknowledged this might be a moment to pull back. i'm wondering if it's possible to say two things are true simultaneously, governor richardson. it may be that snowden is wrong and ought to be prosecuted, but this is the only way we find out. even though members of congress do have information, they respond to public pressure. public pressure only comes from public debates and you only have a debate when you have someone who did something wrong like edward snowden. >> i think the big cover-up i see is this levinson case in iran where the family of levinson was not, i don't think, told the truth about the status

of the husband. i know we're not discussing it. so there are cover-ups, there are reforms that are needed in the intelligence community. but i just think unilaterally for somebody like snowden, a contractor, to be a liberator, i just don't see it. >> katherine, you brought up the disa affectife disaffection that the president's supporters have of him. our poll showed job approval at a disappointing state. 54% disapproved about the obama presidency. he is at his moment here in the second term. how does he get out of it? >> he's got to show leadership. that's the one thing he seems most reluctant to do. i always come back -- when these conversations come up, i always go back to this conversation i had with president george w. bush toward the end of his administration.

and he said, you know, i have done the unpopular things, the hard things, talking about the patriots act and other things that were so unpopular at the time. the next president is going to be glad i did it because he's going to need it. some of the policies we dislike so much, and certainly this falls in this category, may ultimately be necessary, but he's got to be the one that makes the case, and it's got to be made not only forcefully but with a true understanding of how americans respond to these intrusions upon their privacy. and obamacare, i don't think, is going to get more popular, frankly. >> i'm not a believer in such a thing as a second term curse, but i believe it's a problem when your second term implements problems in the first. there are going to be new obamacare deadlines that we're coming up against regularly. if the story doesn't get better, not just the technology, but the story of whether people are losing their doctors, whether

their out-of-pocket costs are going up, it's very interesting to see how he turns these numbers around. it isn't that other second term presidents haven't turned around in the past, bush did and president clinton did, but his are now the worst ever. >> if you're out there and you don't think anything of congress, you don't think washington works, you got obamacare, you don't know what the future is of that, and then if the economy is bad, it's hard for obama to assert a legacy that's very positive. >> it seems very hard right now, but there has been a lot of presidents that have low approval ratings, but the reality is he's still the president. we're in a situation where the president is not running for reelection and he's dealing with a lot of actors inside and outside of congress who will act on their own interests. so when they see cooperating with the president as something that might be in their interest, they're going to act and he's going to have opportunity to get

things done. it's not impossible there could be, for example, immigration legislation to sign. his approval may not make much difference in this one way or another. it also may not happen. >> i've been told the speaker of the house will push on immigration, governor, next year, even though there are some who think it may be better for the party to wait until 2015 when you need it for the 2016 cycle politically, but there's never going to be a better time to do it, you may as well try next year. >> right, and i think republicans will be in deep trouble with hispanic voters unless they get away from this piecemeal approach in the house. i'm going to be an optimist here. i think this budget deal is a turning point. d disaffection shown by these party leaders. i think with obamacare, some of the glitches getting fixed, the potential immigration deal, possibly something on the debt

limit, the president scores on a deal with iran, although i'm skeptical about it, i think he could turn things around. with podesta in the white house, i keep coming back to him, because i served when he was chief of staff. he makes things happen. talking to the president as a grown-up, i think, is what is needed, expanding his base of advisers. >> let me get to another break here. i also want to talk about your book "how to sweet talk a shark." sweet title. we'll come back and talk a little bit more. when we come back here, he's called on his party to stop being the party of no. wisconsin's republican governor scott walker on the split within the gop we saw this weekend. his own alternative to obamacare the gop we saw this weekend. his o[ male announcer ]obamacare here's a question for you: where does the united states get most of its energy? is it africa? the middle east? canada?

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we are back here on a sunday morning. it's been a familiar campaign strategy. you run as an outsider who can actually get things done. a lot of action with gop governors as we think about 2016. among them, republican governor scott walker. he thinks the next president will be a governor outside washington, d.c., as he talks about himself. he wrote a new book, "unintimidated." a big part of that story took part in 2012 as walker worked to

survive the presidency. let me ask you about the budget. i want to remind people what we're talking about, this deal, no government shutdowns for the next two years, deficit reduction of $23 billion, reduces the amount of spending cuts, in other words, allows for more spending in some areas, and reduces cost of living for military retirees. what i thought was significant was yes, they're talking, the government has been working a little better, but the right calls it unamerican and unconservative. >> one, i think it shows the leadership and respect that paul ryan brings to the table. he's one of those guys that steps out of the role of congress and really stepped up to provide some leadership. but for those of us who think the federal government is too big, too intrusive and too involved in our lives tells us that if we want a budget deal we can wrap our arms around, we

have to win in the 2014 elections, key senate races, and things are different if the republicans are in charge of the senate. >> do you support this deal now? do you think it was the right thing for republicans to do now under these circumstances? >> again, that's why i give paul ryan so much credit for his leadership. i think that's why you hear few, if any, criticisms against paul himself because people understand -- >> the question is do you think this is a good idea? we know you like paul ryan. he's from wisconsin and showing leadership here, but do you think this is a good idea? >> i do. i think it is good to go forward, but i also think we have to reinforce why races like the one we're going to have in arkansas and other places around the country are so important. if you're going to bring conservative activists across the table, they have to see it for what it is, and it's a big wake-up call particularly if grassroots people want to see a

stronger budget in the future, we have to trust the government. >> you've got over 500 people who have signed up for gop changes in your state. you're being conservative, and yet you seem to be doing something different in your state. you'll allow people to go directly to the insurance companies. is that a level of support on some level for obamacare? >> no, in my case, i did everything in my power. i allowed my attorney general, on the first day i took office, to join the federal lawsuit. i didn't take the state exchange, i didn't take the medical expansion, but by the same token, i wasn't going to allow my citizens to suffer. so we found a way to cover everyone living in poverty, to transition those in poverty into the marketplace, and we're also making a case to the federal government in many of our counties where there are qualified health plans not in exchanges, that if they can just guy buie those on their own, they should get the subsidy for that. in the long haul, i would very

much prefer to have a patient center plan. i think people clearly here in my state deserve to have health care and health decisions made by themselves and their families and not be pre did he sdestined federal government, so i think that would be a much better alternative. >> how does the federal care act affect 2014? if we get into the new year, there's more sign-ups, it's going tore smoomore smoothly, is elusive for republicans? >> i don't know if that's a ringing endorsement for the country as a whole. the state of wisconsin talks about obamacare where people are rushing out this december to renew their health insurance policies to avoid 25 to 30%, or in some cases, up to 50 to 60% increases for small businesses' insurance premiums.

i don't know about you, but in my state the big thing i'm heard from folks who own small businesses who is they want access to health care, the facts show it's anything but affordable in our state. that's going to be a problem not just for health care but what it means for the economy. it's tough to recover, and so many small businesses are feeling the heat of rising premiums, and the affordable care act only exacerbates it. >> let me ask you about 2016 in this context. i want to go back to what you said, heralding the leadership of chairman paul ryan. is this a chance for republicans to win elections again, to trim your sales, to find common ground where it exists with the democrats so you can actually accomplish something? is that the blueprint for how to win power again? >> i think leadership in general, it's what paul has tried to do in washington, it's what 30 governors are doing across america. i point out in my book austerity

is not the answer. i think often that's been the focal point of republicans nationally. but in 30 states, including most of the background states, republicans aren't charging governors because we're talking about things like reform, not austerity. we're talking about it in ways that are relevant and showing we have the courage to act on it. paul is one of those rare people in washington acting more like a governor than just a member of congress. >> governor chris christie, his brash style, blunt style, taking on critics in some colorful language. you had this to say to the associated press a little bit earlier this fall, and you said, i just have a midwestern filter. that's the difference. i'm willing to speak out but i'm not going to call you an idiot. i'm just going to say, that's a ridiculous question, and move on. is the midwestern nice the ticket to the presidency rather than someone like chris

christie? >> whether it's chris or suzanne martinez or ricky haley -- >> you can't name all the republicans. >> i think in the end there are some pretty outspoken people who can get things done. that's what the people want, they want candor and proven performers, and that's what you get out of republican governors. >> republican governor scott walker. thanks so much. good to talk to you. >> good to be with you, david. coming up, more when i say pe -- whispers about 2016. why kathleen (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the

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here now, some of this week's images to remember.

>> that last one remembering the tragedy in newtown, connecticut one year later. it is striking when you think about our politics and how much the gun control debate occupied the early part of this year. the president interviewed with me the start of the year saying the newtown tragedy was the wor worst day of his presidency. yet you look and support for gun rights has fallen away. >> it's down again, and i think it's no surprise that joe biden announced another $100 million for mental health services because that is where there is some agreement on addressing the next newtowns, because there's nothing about guns, and they learned that over the year. >> if that doesn't move the political model, i don't know what can. >> you just had a recent event in colorado. it goes on and on, and you feel like you're a horrible person if

you don't say absolutely, let's just get rid of all the guns. i think the hitch for most people are none of these events could have been prevented by any legislation that's proposed. i don't know why anybody would have an objection to background checks, that seems minimalist. as to the size of magazines, you can always change the size of your magazines when you need to. i think joe biden's approach toward mental health is the thing he most wants to focus on because ends that's the thing that can unite people, and it seems to be the core problem. >> so earlier in the program you saw the exclusive interview of the architects with senator paul ryan and patty murray. here is the front page of this morning's des moines register calling paul ryan a favorite along with hillary clinton in iowa. you think he is the model of what we're going to see?

>> i think he is. i don't want to exclude these other long list of republicans, especially the governors because it could end up being a governor. paul ryan is clearly emerging as the leader he is. when you're a vice presidential candidate, you tend to seem minimized against the presidential candidate. paul ryan, of course, looked gigantic next to patty murray, which his stature is physical as well as his political presence. but in addition to creating this budget that has finally become somewhat popular, he seems, he just simply seems more mature. he seems to have become seasoned during the years. >> changed a little bit. >> yeah. >> i want to clarify something because i mentioned it a couple times about senator rubio this morning. did he call the compromise deal unamerican? that's not actually what he said. we got the clarification and i wanted to make sure to do this and apologize for the confusion about it. he asked why he couldn't support the deal, and he says, it's not

just as a conservative that he couldn't support it, it's as an american that he couldn't support it. so he didn't actually call it unamerican, but he said, as an american, he can't support it. so that's his level of his opposition. >> people are unamerican, in other words. >> i wanted to make sure i was precise with the language. >> although there's the danger with rubio as well as the danger with paul ryan. it's hard to run for the presidency in congress even though there are a lot of people in congress who think they could be president. it's easier to be governor. >> that's our conversation, our program for today. we're back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

good monday morning. coming up on "early today," breaking news. a holiday shopper is confronted, shot and killed by carjackers at an upscale mall. new details surrounding the young colorado high school shooter in a high school and his motives behind friday's tragedy. mega million dreamers, the jackpot willing over $550 million, the fourth largest in lottery history. plus, a final good-bye to south africa's nelson mandela. and the passing of one of hollywood's most talented and gifted actor, peter o'toole. plus one heck of a day in the nfl. it's monday, december 16th and "early today" starts right now. good morning. i'm richard lui.