this week the always interesting phil watkins jumps to the defense of clean tech best-selling author jeffrey moore goes across the kachl and eric goldman says you have to fight for your right to yelp. with reporters from "new york times" and from "fortune," this week on "press here." good morning, everyone. i'm not going to hide it from you. my first guest is plugging a book. in fact, he's been plugging the same book for 120 years now. but jeffrey moore has might write big laurels. his book crossing the casm is called the best book on marketing ever written. it sold more than a million

copies. if you run into a young entrepreneur who has not read it, it is a book you should invest in the start-up. jeffrey moore is updating "crossing the casm" for the 21st century. joined by consequenton hardy of "the new york times." before we start to talk about the update, briefly explain the casm so that people understand the context. >> yeah, so take us to the innovation. they promise a effect that is fabulous. they require all the other pieces of ecosystem to reconfigure to make them work seamlessly in a xa. >> do you have an scam snm. >> if i introduce a new processor, i have to have the people to update i, support people to update it. and so the problem is we want new stuff. it's a life blood. but are you the one? it creates this pause. they jump in and create the early market which is before the

casm. most people go i'll wait and see. that wait and see is what creates the lull. the lull is the casm. if you don't do anything pro active, you actually don't get out of the lull and you die in the casm. and i think google glass is one of those things that very exciting early adopters and then just was enough time there where you just said, no, they're never going to quite be able to pull it off. >> never is not the right word. but on first pass, for sure. the consumer products are particularly challenging. if you have to have a lot of support, the consumer infrastructure can't do that. if you have a business product, often can you find a niche market that says, well, i'll put you do for me is really helps me. >> what is different today you? recently updated the book with the whole cloud companies and bundles. >> playbook has not changed. all the players have changed. so the feedback i was getting over the last decade is i guess the sbook okay. i don't know any of the companies you're referring to.

>> i'm sorry. >> the first version word star. >> really? >> there are three of us. but because your point, literally, i just went through and said i'm not going change the argument. i'm only going to swap out references and example. first chapter used to have line called if bill gates can be a billionaire, troy donahue can, now it's different. boom, that's it. that's the change. >> all right. so change to software is a service is one of the things you're talking about box. you're talking about i think sales force, workday. >> yeah. >> what is -- why are they able to follow the same playbook as some of the older stuff? the sgi's and the word stars and that sort of thing. >> the playbook is completely unchanged isn't fair. again, think about it. if your sales force, you want people to be on force.com or should the ecosystem, how much should i spend putting myself on force.com as opposed to somebody

else? so there is still that issue. i would say with that the various entry and exit are lower which means the casm decision is less gut wrenching and people can test the waters easily. >> this seems this is a book about marketing and the objective is to prove that you are the one in an area that is so important they should all change their behavior and get you to this new environment. and that would mean both having the technical chops and the know how and creating a certain space that other things will happen. how do you do that? particularly when something is different. there used to be sort of four or five contenders to be the one, now there is 20 or 30. >> you have to start companies. >> it is. well, so if you look at the ones that are successful, by the way, the market ultimately sustained 50, 60% growth. >> they just want to tag along with everybody else. >> exactly. it is safety in numbers. hard mentality. so i think one of the key

variables is promoter. you look at mark mayoff. he is a proud piper. steve jobs is a proud piper. people follow. particularly in a world where the ceo's become a bit of a celebrity. having that capability, boy, now -- >> how do you like the personality driven angle, follow me, i am the one? >> to be fair, if they said that way, people probably wouldn't. >> no. they would signal it that way. >> they create -- actually, incredibly charming. they are usually quite funny. people kind of get sucked into it. >> they wear brightly colored shoes. >> interesting. >> they tamp down the fear and increase the belief. >> the most modest guy you've ever seen. he'll be the first guy that will say markets have been powering the road ahead of us. he is a very clear value proposition. you knew me from peoplesoft. >> the ceo of workday, those people continue. >> so neil is at peoplesoft.

that is west of the oracle thing. he did get into adventure capital. went right back in. so he has a message which says, look, we're not as big -- this is what i meanly less chasm to cross. we're going to swap out your on premise solution with a solution which, by the way, we built that for you. so when we swap it out, you know it's going to be good. and you'll fwet all the advantages of the staff. so that was a -- he was able to use a quieter, more just kind of frankly just sort of i will take care of you more reliable way. >> you consult, speak, meet a lot of people. what gives you courage or faith or understanding that somebody is likely to be a leader? it is the personality? it is their understanding of the technology? is it the time is just right? what gives you a good gut feeling? >> boy. it is a gut feeling. maybe i guess authenticity. so, you know, some of these people are larger than life.

they can be authentically larger than life. >> groucho marks. you got it made. >> there are other people you get a slightly funny vibe from. one of the wonderful things about income this stage of my career is i just don't have -- i can work with the people that i feel comfortable with. >> jeffrey, with twitter recently not growing as quickly as people thought, we're all twitter users. we love twitter. we're clearly the early adopters on that, right? where are we on the category? >> i would say twitter is way across the chasm. >> you would? >> miles. yeah. >> so why would an investor be so upset about twitter's growth? twitter is across the chasm. >> i don't think it's about twitter. twitter, first of all, if you can log into a gazillion sites using facebook id or twitter id, twitter is the infrastructure. >> you see the twitter handles on the boston marathon runners bibz. >> everybody. >> fair enough. so what was the investors really

saying this week? >> i think what they were really saying this week is we think the tech sector got out over too far. >> do you agree with that? >> yes. it doesn't matter whether i agree or disagree in a sense. this pattern will show up over and over again. if we're not too far over our skis, we'll keep reaching until we are. right? >> that's their job. >> it is their job. they're in the business of creating huge changes. that is hard to value. you tend to overshoot. >> you do. >> when you retrace, you're like what a bunch of losers. >> get to the rest of your twitter point and then i have to let you go. >> okay, fair enough. rest of that point would be we've seen growth is the thing that matters most to people. and so they're on that growth curve. when you start seeing even minor changes in the growth curve because the earnings curve is not a value stock. goupt to epfs and say this is

the landing point. it has to be growth momentum. that is why it's such a sensitive subject. >> jeffrey moore's new old book is "crossing the chasm." make sure anybody you invest in has read it cover to cover. up next, bill watkins come to the defense of green energy and batteries that last forever when "press here" continues. #

. welcome back to "press here." there was a time not too long ago that we thought clean energy was going to save silicon valley. everyone thought the answer was green. then there was this whole debacle. all of a sudden green energy was out and as it turns out the economy was saved anyway and high-tech startups turned out chat apps to sell to facebook. it's trendy to dismiss green energy. take a look at this clip from 60 minutes. the segment is called the clean tech crash. >> instead of breakthroughs, the sector suffered a string of expensive tax funded flops. suddenly, clean text was a dirty word. >> bill watkins is the ceo of clean tech energy company. he is also an outspoken defender of the green industry. bill is outspoken just about anything as it were.

the former head of seagate as well and led company as well. what made you move into green energy? what brought you into that -- that into your spirit? >> well, again, i got into a certain part of green energy. and because i started and i understood what was going on with solar and ability for storage and what we can do with the sort of solution and there is a vision. it's just not my vision. there is a group of people in this valley that have a vision. we're very close to getting that. that is that we as people, small groups in our neighborhood and our home, we can create a microgrid and store energy from the sun free with a capital cost that is very, very low. when we get the electric car system right, we have a system that changes the dynamics of everything in the world. when you and me can generate our own energy for $50,000 and the rest is easy. that changes everything.

and so i'm a great believer in distributing energy. >> how do we get energy into the local hands or local control? >> you sound like somebody out of the '60s. >> i am. >> okay. i am stechnically from the 60s f your criteria is not real hard. can you convince venture capital out there? >> yes, i can. you can convince venture capital of anything. you have to make money. >> yes, can you. there is a valued proposition. that's why i don't need subsidies. i just need to bring a product that stores energy, allows you to reuse solar, wind or a grid when you want to use it. >> let's walk into the valley of proposition a little bit. you have the new battery. it's huge, it's better than lithium eyon. the cost is a little higher. you say you're going to bring the cost down. i think you have to promise you're going to keep writing the cost down. those utilities are not going to stand by and watch you do this and sign off their business.

they're going to cut their cost and deliver cheaper and run at a loss to drive you away. what have you got going on that's going to make this cheaper and cheaper and cheaper? scale or innovation? >> well, there is a scale. any type of scale product is down. i have a great opportunity to do that. but we have a chemistry which is about half the cost of battery. and we store energy separate through generation. so that we never have any pladine. my storage will last forever. it should theoretically -- >> once you put the energy into the battery, it will stay in that battery. we recharge it and over and over and over. those are two different things. how do you keep bringing the costs down? >> the energy will stay in the battery forever or the battery will be recharged forever. >> it can recharge forever. you just keep recharging it. >> what stage are you at? >> we have about 70 batteries in the field operating in very remote areas for storage and

solution. and we're basically when the grid goes down, they run off battery. they store the batteries in a solar source or from the grid in india. they have a very inld meet yacht grid. when the grid goes down, they run off that. >> they have this in neighborhoods? >> neighborhoods and everywhere. we have a whole series of products from five kilo watt to mega watt areas. i'm working with solar companies. i'm working directly with different individuals, working with the telecom. right now i'm with the telecom sites. >> okay. >> but the neighborhood, i think that is an interesting question he has. so our solar and our neighborhoods generate electricity which go to a central battery on the end of the street. who owns that battery? >> you as an individual own that battery. >> the subdivision? >> yes, the group, the neighborhood, or individuals. can you put it in your house f you have a footprint of a pool, you now hoe you operate a pool, that's ow big our batteries are that run a home. >> and at some point this is affordable for me to do. already solar is unaffordable enough. most people have to lease it. >> we can do the same thing.

unless one of the batteries is a cost structure. people buy batteries that last three, four years. when you buy my battery, you're going to last 20 years. that changes the cost structure for a long time. >> i think that will be hard for home builders. >> we're talking to a lot of new people. right now this son television. >> this isn't chemistry. this isn't like where things get cheaper on a regular basis. how do you crush the costs? >> you change the chemistry. want to get more power dense. so i have a big opportunity around power density. therefore, less chemistry, more power. and that's one of the batteries of my solution right now. i'm two to one over everybody else. so you keep working on the efficiency. how do you bring in efficiency? so much energy comes in, we use some of the energy to run the battery. the rest we basically discharge to where we want to use it. big opportunity there to drive costs down. most batteries now lose 20, 25% of the energy by running the system. so there is a tremendous opportunity. talk about numbers like $100 a

kilo watt hour. we're talking about massive opportunities. at seagate, this goes to the green point. recently made by seagate, nobody would invest. 1980, the world needed a five megabyte drop. nobody needed a five megabyte drive. ron cannon is the one that gave us the money. that is before he formed the company. he then went to another company. but guys like that see the vision. most of us don't. and that's why i go back to clean tech. and we're just half way through the game. >> you said that you can -- you can convince venture capitalists to raise money. but to scott's point earlier, the whole space turned off a lot of people. is there still a -- >> i think it hasn't turned off people in the valley. i garn to you. that's what's to great about

this valley. this valley, it's not about being a, you know, a social media guy or being a semiconductor guy or a hard drive guy or a solar guy. it's about being guys who have a vision and they can come to a place and people will support them. >> whether it comes to green energy, are you in the magic place? are you in the graduates going to plastics sort of thing? led is one way to go. solar is another way to go. >> batteries. >> it is batteries? >> look, it's wherever the need is. what i don't like about business, i don't like subsidies. i don't like where i have to do stuff to make money. we can make and save so much money with energy on leds, we needed to get it right. get the product right. you can see in ten years, guys, all lights will be leds. >> half of them are now. >> again, it is marching along. we need to go back to 4 sn or whatever. there are always people that want to talk about other stuff. batteries have never been able

to get their storage. when he use based the way we do now. we take the energy that we generate for solar. give it to the utilities. and they're our storage. >> yes. >> everyone is trying to -- this is all how we manage technology. if we did one thing if, we broke up utilities and said the last mile to the house, anybody can access. like when we broke up at&t, think about at&t. when i grew up, good phone service but there was no innovation. bell labs, they had the greatest innovations out of the world. what was the biggest invention you got? we broke up at&t and what happened? think about if we did that with utilities. everyone could rent that last mile to your home, walmart or somebody would generate a grid for our storage. can i sell that energy to you? awesome. can you create enough competition. what enable that's is someone plays a utility need. >> bill watkins, thank you. i have to save time for my next guest. i wish you the best of luck.

when you get it -- >> that's why you're a welcomed guest on the show. bill watkins, thanks for being with us. up next, fight for your right to yelp when "press here" continues.

welcome back. a young woman in utah was fined $3500 for posting a negative review online about her experiences with this website called clear gear. it sells t-shirts and what not. now who fined her? the website itself. it turns out if you buy something from clear gear you have to click through legal language which says you'll not zparnlg the company. now that is ridiculous, of course, and the woman didn't pay the fine. so clear gear reported to the collections agency and dinged her credit rating. the california legislature is

working to make sure that doesn't happen here. assembly bill 2365 would make sure consumers weren't asked to sign away they're rights to review a business. they call it the yelp bill. eric goldman is from santa clara's law school. he is here to explain how this yelp bill would work. i don't think most people realize that's a thing. apparently, dentist dozen that. you won't say bad things about me online. >> absolutely. it's becoming a more common phenomenon. businesses are trying to manage their consumer reviews. they look for ways to put consumers under their thumb. >> is that legal in california currently? >> we're not sure. >> how do you know if you're signing this? what is the language? nobody actually reads this agreement anyway. so what does it say? >> so that is part of the

problem, isn't it? you're given a huge stack of papers. you're dealing. you don't read them. there is nothing that flashes out at you. the bill says we need waiver of your right to review knowing volunteer and intelligent. it is more visible in the process. to me, i don't think that solved the problem. we don't really know when we're signing anything. no matter what, we're not going to read it. >> this is called a nondisparagement clause. >> peoples can think about it as a nondisparagement clause. sometimes they say you can't talk us about nice or negative. >> part of the problem is a lot of web sites basically took sort of corporate language and corporate legal thinking and pushed it on to consumers. this is the kind of corporate nondisparagement you may get into. individuals are not expected to act like big corporations. >> that's something to think

about. another way to think about it is companies are so concerned about their image to the public that they're looking for any mechanism to get control. so they're running through the tool kit. >> what if there is no accident and this is the world trying to change and they're trying to anticipate what social media may do to them. >> absolutely. >> there is one that was general mills and cheerios. it's not exact lit same situation. you were giving up the right to sue them. waits a strange sort of thing. general mills backed off that legal language. i don't think anybody ever hurt them. there was any language in doing something online with cheerios that would end up with them agreeing to legally of anything. >> it's a great example. companies didn't have direct relationships with their customers. but online they can form the relationships. they can manage the relationships using the potentially clauses as if you eat my cheerios, you can't fwauk them online. >> what companies do you see

adding -- what are the types of companies businesses that are adding news kind of clauses? >> i don't think there is a single pattern. they're generally industry by industry. industry wakes up and realizes consumer users are changing the industry and then people freak out. the place you see most action is usually with personal services. the small business owner who has a direct relationship with their customer and they're very thin skinned. >> your job -- yelp is a huge product for them. >> there are a lot of people that do hate yelp. >> it is nicknamed the yelp bill. it can be angie's list or anything else. >> your job is to think through both sides. do the companies have a point? is there something here they're getting at that you think is justifiable? >> on this particular topic, no. >> sorry. >> i'm okay. >> the reason why is we as consumers need to be sharing our experiences with each other in order for us to hold companies accountable. so when a company tries to hush

up their customers, they're distorting the marketplace. they're trying to keep the bad information from holding them back. >> i think what you see on yelp is and then three companies in the same business got all their friends to write negative reviews about me. and i got fed up. >> i will say, it's a point that if this law passes, this doesn't protect you from slander as a consumer. this doesn't protect you from if you put up an inaccurate review or you were even a customer. it doesn't protect that. >> there are other ways to prevent that action? >> correct. can the company say regardless of whether you are telling the truth or not, we're not going throat you talk. the answer is -- >> you're right. they don't have a case. >> there should be no interpretation. you can't talk about your experiences. >> with just a couple seconds left this is obviously strictly to california. we would expect if it passes

other states might adopt this as a logical sort of thing. >> it seems like something that other states are going to jump on the bandwagon once they point out the need for it. >> okay. eric goldman is the santa clara law professor and expert nint net law. thank you. >> we'll be back in just a minute.

that's our show for this week. we have an archive of the show at pressheretv.com. thank you for making us part of your sunday morning.