conservative anyway? the third, bargaining. let's take it to the voters. they'll reject him, right? the fourth, depression. oh, my god. he's actually winning this thing. and now, the fifth stage, the hardest one of all, acceptance. why? trump just won big in new york. he's expected to win big in the five primaries held this tuesday which include pennsylvania where our new poll has trump with a double-digit lead, sitting at 45%. over ted cruz at 27%, john kasich at 24%, and yes, if you add up kasich and cruz, it's a majority, which is going to make the stop trump people hit their head against the wall. for the anti-trump loyalists counting on indiana to be their firewall, consider this. the only poll we have seen out of indiana in the past week came out friday and it shows trump leading by just six points, but the fact that he's ahead is a big deal. 37-31. kasich at 22%. again, cruz and kasich together over 50. throw in a republican

establishment that seems more cowed by trump than energized to defeat him, and they look more willing to accept the man whose man offer appears after the word never. >> presidential is easy. >> with stop trump going nowhere, signs republicans are tip toeing toward sundacceptanc. sign one, evidence of surrender by the party's leaders. at the rnc spring meeting in florida, reince priebus warned, stop trump sympathizers to get in line. >> politics is a team sport. and we can't win unless we really around whoever becomes our nominee. >> and the party went out of its way to disprove trump's charge that it's rigging the game. it rejected changes to convention rules. after mitch mcconnell seemed to relish the idea of trump losing a multiple ballot convention. >> i'm increasingly optimistic

there may be a second ballott. >> he quickly walked that back. >> what i said somewhat inartfully is that we'll have a nominee once we get to 1,237. >> with republicans, including former nominee john mccain threatening to skip the convention, house speaker paul ryan urged his party to be there. >> i think it could be a great historical, you know, exercise. it could be something you'll remember the rest of your lives. >> sign number two, the stop trump movement isn't spending. not a dime on tv ads in new york. just $300,000 in this tuesday's primaries, which trump is expected to dominate. instead, holding its fire until the may 3rd indiana primary. >> to stop trump, vote for cruz. >> sign number three, the failure of an anti-trump alternative to launch. >> john kasich is an honorable and decent man whose only role in this election is as a spoiler. >> he was saying that if i couldn't mathematically win the

nomination, i should get out. he can't mathematically win. >> to make acceptance easier to swallow, the trump's team is softening his image, promising a more disciplined, professional candidate who can work with the party. >> we're here to let them know we're going to run a traditional campaign. >> behind cloised doors, his new campaign chief went further. >> when he's on the stage, when he's talking about the kinds of thing he's talking about, he's projecting an image that's for that purpose. you'll start to see more depth to the person, the real person. >> on saturday, the new trump sounded a lot like the old trump. >> lying ted cruz, right? he's saying -- you know, with that horrible flourish, the hands. he walks in, bible held high, then he puts the bible down and then he lies. he's a liar. >> good old trump. i'm joined by katie packer, a key figure in this never trump movement. she runs an anti-trump pac called our principles pac. and michael steele, former

chairman of the republican national committee. i'm going to bring in the panel in a few minutes. you're the most prominent face these days for never stop trump. why are you the most prominent face? you're not an elected official. why are republican officials afraid of being the face of a never trump movement? >> i'm not sure i can answer that question. i think a lot of them frankly are hoping upon hope that this goes another direction and they don't alienate the supporters of trump in the process. but certainly, there are a lot of people behind closed doors expressing real concern. >> they tell you one thing, and they say, sure, tell the people. like, well, geez. i've got scheduling commitments. >> these are smart people, and they understand with trump at the top of the ticket, we not only lose the white house. we definitely lose the senate. we very likely lose the house, and we probably lose elections for a generation because we have somebody that's known to be a sexist, very likely a racist at

the top of our ticket, and it's very damaging to the party. >> michael steele, you and i have had conversations. you seem to be in a different place here, that, you're not enthusiastic about him, but you're accepting the idea that he's going to be the nominee. >> this has been a process that unfolded starting in june of last year. all that time, there have been myriad efforts and opportunities to stop trump. but they haven't worked. why? and the one thing about these movements and the folks that we're talking about seem to don't understand or be able to answer the question, why do people continue to vote for him? what is it about what he's saying and doing that still attracts the core base of the gop? yes, it's 35%, 45%, whatever, less than 50%, but when you look at the totality of the movement and the effort that he's put out there, there's a response to it. so why are enan en't they respoo kasich, to cruz, why aren't they winning and trump is? that's the core question that nobody in washington wants to wrap their head around.

>> katie, you seem to be running -- the hill, i think, captured it well. they had a headline that said never trump, referring to your group, saying your goals are colliding with the goals of kasich can cruz. cruz has the best shot in indiana. kasich has the best shot in maryland, you're hoping cruz doesn't campaign there, but the two campaigns aren't listening. >> that's a frustration frrx sure. what we have seen historically, though, is by this point in time, the election does come down to two candidates. it was romney and santorum. it was mccain and romney. and at that point in time, somebody begins to coalesce support. somebody begins to win a majority. trump is nowhere near that. if you look at mccain and romney's numbers as they progress throughout the primaries, they were ramping up. trump is in a total flat line. >> but cruz and kasich have not been able to galvanizeeter side. >> absolutely, and it's a total frustration, but our message is let's take it to the convention. let's let the process play itself out.

if you don't like ted cruz and don't want to vote for him, that's okay. you're not going to give it to them by voting for him. let's do what we can to get this to an open convention and then duke it out. >> michael steele, and i'm going to bring in the panel after this. it was chairman priebus who started to wave the white flag. he said we're not going to make rules changes. if the party wanted to stop trump, why not make a rules change? >> that's effectively how you would do it. we saw it with ron paul in 2012. >> they chose not to. >> it goes back to what katie was saying. they recognize what donald trump has done is galvanized a whole new level of voter. folk whose have sat on their behind for six, eight years, haven't participated, now coming out. the other thing to keep in mind, just because cruz and kasich are at 51% together, don't assume those voters recollection trump isn't their second choice either. so don't assume that 51% is going to be there should one of them drop out. >> let me bring in the panel and they can start bombarding you with questions.

nicolle wallace, republican strategist and nbc analyst. former bush and mccain strategi strategist. jose diaz-balart, robert costa from the "washington post," and joy-ann reid, colleague of my at msnbc. you have been in acceptance for a long time. >> living out all five stages in weepy real time. i'm very sympathetic to what you're trying to do. i think that one of the challenges is the solution for the problem you rightfully diagnose isn't any more appealing than the problem itself. republicans aren't any more enthusiastic or optimistic about the outcome of cruz at the top of the ticket. >> would say the goal is to drive this to an open convention. >> and skip trump and cruz and get to door number three? >> if you're not happy with any of the choices, the last time we had a convention like this was 1976, but it was different because everybody was virtually in one camp or another. there are a lot of people who are in none of these camps.

to those voters, we would say if that's the camp you're in, you're not happy, vote for cruz, vote for kasich, because that will get what's behind door number two. >> isn't the main problem is any of the solutions you would come up with that's not donald trump is going to take that, let's say it's 30% to 40% of the republican base that are white blue collar voters, working class voters who are enraged at the republican party. any outcome but trump may alienate the voters in such a way that it dooms the party in november no matter what. i think the problem is the party is the problem. the 40-some odd years of promises that were not fulfilled even by the tea party because eventually they even went washington to a lot of these voters. i thin these voters are so angry that you almost have to give them donald trump to seicheiate the anger. >> i think it's naive to say it's 30% to 40% who stay home if it's trump. there's people saying i'm not

going to vote for trump in a general election even though i'm republican. >> let's remember the process started with about 200,000 republicans running for president. there were more people running for president than at a party in havana, yet the voters in the process whidalled it down to three, and really down to one. so this concept that now somebody else is going to come up, there were 17. african-americans, two latinos, there were, you know, women, and yet it's all down to trump. let's not forget that. >> the scene at the rnc, it told so so much. i was standing outside of a meeting room when paul manafort stepped out. what i recorded that day, it was all rnc members giving out their business card to the trump campaign. hollywood, florida, white sand beaches, everyone is relaxed. >> hey, mr. manafort, don't forget my name. really? oh, my word. >> in priebus's suite, the first thing he told the "washington post" is he had a great phone

call with donald trump this past week. >> let me throw something out here. do we believe there has been a new trump? i'm going to play for you cruz doesn't believe it. and then you'll hear trump's response to it. here it is. >> they were saying these are their words. that all of this is just a show. that he doesn't believe anything he is saying. he's just trying to fool gullible voters, and he's not going to do any of it. he's not going to build a wall, not going to deport anyone. he's telling us he's lying to us. >> well, trump, of course, the new trump, was the old trump. take a listen. >> so cruz picks it up, lying ted. he goes donald trump is kidding everybody. he's different on the trail. he said, and he said that he's going to do things differently. and he's not going to build a wall. what the hell does this have to do with the wall? believe me, i'm building the wall. >> all right, michael and katie, michael, is this a new trump? that's what paul manafort promised a more trump with more

depth. that didn't -- that sounded like the old trump. >> basically, the outward side of trump is still going to be trump. he's still going to go riff on the party and riff on the politics of the party. but when he needs to be in that zone where he wants to specifically communicate, i think you will see it, and i think we have already seen him at times try to do that, when he uses the notes. >> katie -- he mocked him. listen to what he said about being presidential. watch this. >> presidential is easy. you know what presidential is? i walk on. so you walk on. ladies and gentlemen of waterbury, it is a great honor to be where you this morning. >> katie, he mocks the process. he actually mocked his own guy,

manafort. >> well, it would be funny if it weren't so frightening. this is a guy running to be the leader of the free world. he's not running to play a part on a reality tv show. i do think he's mocking the process, and the notion you're going to take a guy that's 70 years old and he's going to adopt a whole new personality, he doesn't even know that wha s he's doing is offensive. the idea he's going to somehow change along the way is impossible. >> you can't beat something with nothing. at the end of the day, you can say that, you know, these voters are deluded, they're takingbiz,t that with nothing. the problem with the stop trump movement is you're offering nothing. you're saying just don't vote for this guy. obviously, the voters preferring him are saying he's offering an occam's razor solution of economic want, feeling they're left behind by the party. your side is offering them nothing. >> most republican strategists worry, as much as trump changes his temperament, in a burden

election, he has to carry the burden of the muslim ban, carry the burden on the policies on the wall. >> and the real conversation, you both know this, taking place, is how we lose. do we lose with cruz? the reality, we can try to spin it into something else. it's do we lose with cruz, who we know will not appeal to the people who determine the outcomes of elections, or do we roll the dice on trump? trump's strength is pulling the curtain down on the process. >> fine elquestion and word to the two of you. michael, go with you, and katie, you get the last word. john kasich is the only candidate we can find who beats hillary clinton in our pennsylvania poll. >> that's it. >> hillary clinton is up double digits over cruz and trump. why isn't the tstop trump movement uniting behind him? >> that's the one thing that has made no sense to me at all, because the guy standing in front of you, which every poll shows can defeat, and i have heard from democrats who say if

you nominate kasich, this becomes a different race for me in november. yet the stop trump folks want to focus on people who cannot win a general election against hillary clinton. it's befuddling, which is again why the voters look and go -- >> why aren't you guys the pro-kasich movement, not the stop trump movement? >> the stop trump movement is about keeping donald trump's head down and keeping the pressure on him and hopefully one of these candidates will do what they need to do to draw voters to them. the reality is in a state like indiana, kasich isn't going to beat trump. so we have to put our support behind cruz and hope thatthosis voters come behind cruz. it's not a choice that we would like to be making. i don't know why our voters ignored the 15 candidates that might have been able to beat hillary clinton and narrowed it down to a couple who can't, but that's where we are. >> four years from now, we'll have the quince caucus first. katie packer, michael steele, thanks. i think katie you got bombarded

here left and right on your movement, but you took it well. thank you for joining us. when we come back, my sit-down with a conciliatory of sorts bernie sanders of vermont. take a listen. >> look at the polls. bernie sanders runs better against trump in almost all of these polls than hillary clinton. >> if you listen carefully, y we were born 100 years ago into a new american century. born with a hunger to fly and a passion to build something better. and what an amazing time it's been, decade after decade of innovation, inspiration and wonder. so, we say thank you america for a century of trust, for the privilege of flying higher and higher, together. ♪ your body was made for better things than rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist move to another treatment,

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welcome back. bernie sanders is spending the weekend campaigning in maryland ahead of tuesday's primaries. a tough week for sanders whose chances of beating hillary clinton received a near fatal blow after he was convincingly beaten in the new york primary. sanders has vowed to fight on, but he needs to win the remaining contests by big mar n margins to have any chance of beating clinton at the philadelphia convention. i sat down with him in baltimore yesterday and asked about his differences that still remain with hillary clinton. hillary clinton the other night in her victory speech after new york said this. >> and to all the people who supported senator sanders, i believe there is much more that unites us than divides us. >> do you agree with her on that? >> i think there is a lot that unites us. i think there's a lot that divides us. i think the fact that all of us are in agreement that donald trump would be a disaster for this country if he became

president, unites us. the fact that we understand, for example, that climate change is real while republican opponents ignore that reality unites us. but on the other hand, i think what divides us is the understanding on the part of millions of people who are supporting my candidacy that it really is too late for establishment politics and establishment economics. we have to deal in a very substantive way with income and wealth inequality. we need to understand why we're the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people, not to have paid family and medical leave. that we have to deal aggressively with a corrupt campaign finance system which allows big money interests to buy elections. >> you say they're differences. if she were here, she would say i agree with you on campaign finance. i agree with you on medicare. >> but that -- >> she would say she agrees with the goals. >> we all agree with goals. i suppose everybody has general understanding, you know, that we don't want to see a nuclear war and so forth. but i think that i believe in a

medicare for all single payer program that guarantees health care to all people. i have not only shown by talk but by walking the walk that you can run a campaign, a strong winning national campaign getting millions of individuals to make small campaign contributions. that has not been secretary clinton's approach. we have not been dependent on big money interests. that's perhaps the most important thing. because i'm not quite sure that you're ever going to change this country, ever going to take on the billionaire class, ever going to create a government that works for the middle class so long as you're dependent on wall street money. >> you wake up the day after the convention and you're not the nominee, do you look in the mirror and say this was a successful campaign? >> obviously, our goal now, while we have a narrow path to victory, we're going to fight through that path. we hope to win. but i think the fact that we have shown that there is massive dissatisfaction in this country with the status quo, that people

want to think bigger, that people understand that when you have 20 people in this country owning more wealth than the bottom 150 million people, that people are showing in this campaign the desire to stand up and fight back. the fact that we have brought millions of young people who i think many of the pundits had thought were kind of apathetic, not interested in politics. you know what. these young people know they're the future of the country. they want to shape the future and i'm proud we have been able to bring them in the political process. >> you stridescribed it as a na path. what it is. explain it to me. >> we have to win big in the number of primaries and caucuses that yet remain. poll came out yesterday that had us within striking distance in california. our largest lead. i think we could do well in california. >> it starts with winning some states, winning in pennsylvania, winning in -- >> bottom line, you have to win delegates. that what it means. >> in this case, big primary wins. >> right. we have won 1200 delegates. and by the way, when we talk

about the campaign, you know, we started this campaign 60, 65 points behind secretary clinton in national polls, now many have us even, a few points ahead, perhaps. this is an important point. when democrats look in the horizon, what unites us is the understanding that trump would be a disastrous president. look at the polls. bernie sanders runs better against trump in almost all of these polls than hillary clinton. >> but she runs well, too. does that hurt your cause a little bit? it's like, yeah, you do better, but she runs pretty well, too. >> i think the answer is, depending on the polls, and p l polls are polls, i don't want to go crazy on polls, but i think many democrats are convinced what is most important is defeating donald trump. i believe the objective evidence is i'm the stronger candidate. >> i was going to say, at the end of the day, do you feel you were given a fair shot? >> we took advantage of the opportunities in front of us.

we're in the race, we're in the race until california, and we're proud of the campaign we ran. >> interesting numbers here. so 17 of the 25 states with the highest levels of income inequality have held primaries. 16 of those 17 have been won by hik hirk, not by you. why? >> because poor people don't vote. i mean, that's just a fact. a sad reality of american society. and that's what we have to transform. we, as you know, have one of the lowest voter turnout rates. we have had some success with lower income people, but in america today, in the last election in 2014, 80% of poor people did not vote. >> you feel as if you could find a way to get people that are fighting at that poverty line, either just below it or just above it, if they were engaged in the process, you would do better? >> if we could significantly increase voter turnout so younger people and poor people participated in the voter process, we could have a voter turnout of 75%, this country

would be radically transformed. >> president obama is getting criticism in the uk for speaking out against -- he doesn't want to see british citizens vote to take the uk out of the e.u. first, where are you on that, and second, would you inserert yourself into the campaign? >> i'll let the britishew(nople make their decisions. >> so the president shouldn't comment for that? >> the president can comment on anything. >> as president -- >> i didn't say that. he is the president. >> do you have a view? do you have a view on this? >> not a significant one. i think the uk -- the european union obviously is a very, very important institution. but ultimately, you know, people of britain have got to make their own decisions. i would hope they stay in, but that's their decision. >> why are you against the c consumption tax in philadelphia that would pay for pre-k? hillary clinton is for it? >> i'll tell you why. because it's a totally

regressive tax. at a time of massive wealth inequality, many pay ineffective tax rate, lower than working class people. you have corporations not paying a nickel. that's where you get the money. somebody making $20,000 a year and buy a bottle of soda, i don't think you charge them 30 cents more for that soda. the goal of universal health care, child care, something i agree on and applaud the mayor there for coming forward, but raise the money in a way that is progressive, not on the backs of low income working people. >> you must be against cigarette taxes too? >> cigarette taxes, there's a difference between cigarettes and soda. i'm aware of the obesity problem in the country. >> i don't think michael bloomberg would agree with you. >> that's fine. he can have his point of view. but cigarettes are causing cancer, obviously, and other diseases, and you know, there's almost a question as to why it remains a legal product in this country. >> let me wrap it up, a question this way. do you feel as if, if hillary

clinton is the democratic nominee and you're not, but donald trump is the opponent, do you have a responsibility to do what it takes to get your voters to support hillary clinton? >> i will do everything i can to make certain that donald trump is not elected president. but if that's scenario plays out, the major responsibility will be on secretary clinton to convince all people, not just my supporters, that she is the kind of president this country needs to represent working people in this country, to take on the big money interests, who have so much power. to fight for what the american people want. >> your supporters, for the most part, whenever -- very skeptical of hillary clinton. very, very skeptical. tougher on her, frankly, than you ever are. people talk about all this back and forth. what do you think -- what is your advice to her on winning your voters over? >> she's going to have to bei very explicit about supporting a program which stands up for the needs of the middle class and working families. which most importantly makes it clear that she is prepared to take on wall street in a very

clear way. take on the billionaire class. come up with a program that makes health care for all in this country a right within the next several years. i think those are some of the issue s she's going to have to bring forth. >> did we just hear intentionally or not the bernie sanders exit interview? we'll get to that later in the show. >> also, why does donald trump's >> also, why does donald trump's magic number the win the safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient. at bp, it's training and retraining in state-of-the-art simulators so we're better prepared for any situation. it's giving offshore teams support from onshore experts, so we have extra sets of eyes on our wells. and it's empowering anyone to stop a job if something doesn't seem right.

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and we are back. data download time. you have been hearing a lot about the so-called magic number of delegates needed to secure the republican nomination. it's 1,237. it's pretty much tattooed on the foreheads of everybody in the nbc news political unit, but trump's magical number could be less. in fact, it could be a lot less because he's likely to pick up the so-called unbound delegates, the people who can do whatever they want on the first ballot. they can vote for whoever, regardless of how their state voted. so how does it all happen? here's our back of the napkin

map. we're going to start with this magic number of 1237 and subtract from that the number of unbound delegates that we're estimated trump is likely to pick up. we're going to start with nine unbound delegates from the collection of colorado, wyoming, and guam contests. they haven't been awarded to a single candidate yet. in our breakdown, we're going to assume trump can negotiate his way to three of those folks. now, there are the rubio delegates. nbc has reported 34 of the delegates marco rubio earned during the primary season will be unbound on that first ballot. negotiating his way to some rubio supporters, we think trump can pick up seven of those folks. not a lot, but a handful. well, now we go to the 54 pennsylvania delegates who won't be bound to any candidate after tuesday's primary. about 60% of those running for delegate have indicated publicly they will either support trump or whoever wins their congressional district. which if you believe our polls, is likely to be trump.

so we're going to put 34 out of those 54 delegates in trump's column for now. so all told, that's 44 unbound delegates trump could pick up. conservative estimate, mind you. substract that from 1237 and we get a new magic number, 1193. that's probably the maximum he needs, the real number trump will need before he starts picking up what we think are the unbound delegates. now again, we think this is a conservative estimate. it's possible trump can win more of these folks. because trump is expected to sweep all five states on tuesday. and then momentum could take over. he could pick up more of those folks and then his magic number could drop from 1193 down to 1150 after the last primary. and in fact, it may be very hard for the stop trump movement to keep trump below 1150. either way, while trump technically still needs 1237 on the first ballot, it's clear he does not need that many pledged delegates by the end of voting in june. and that's what makes the stop trump forces even more nervous.

up next, donald trump's campaign says he's just been playing the part of a candidate. that we'll soon see a new trump. if that's true, how do you explain this moment yesterday? >> he can't win with the popular vote because he's got zero personality, because he lies like a thief, okay. those new glasses? they are. do i look smarter? yeah, a little. you're making money now, are you investing? well, i've been doing some research. let me introduce you to our broker. how much does he charge? i don't know. okay. uh, do you get your fees back if you're not happy? (dad laughs) wow, you're laughing. that's not the way the world works. well, the world's changing. are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management, at charles schwab. what's that? the number of units we'll make next month to maximize earnings.

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welcome back, the panel is back. let's start quickly with reaction to bernie sanders. what if people don't vote, and some hillary supporters pointed out first it was the south and -- >> it got a huge reaction when the preview came out in my social media world. i think part of the problem is the word you use the excuses, you say you're running a political revolution but keep parsing we don't have the right kind of voter motivated or informed enough, they are too old fashion or conservative and putting it off on poverty. i don't think he meant too disparage people who are poor but if you are running a revelatireceiv

revolutionary movement, they should be hearing your message. >> in another time or conversation, this wochb an important conversation to have. i think it's a fact of life that in the united states the amount of people who are citizens of the united states who aren't registered to vote and could vote are huge and this country would look differently from our elected officials if everybody voted. we have a campaign, it's bringing in people to register to vote. it would be a different country if everyone was registered to vote. it's that that conversation at the time you had it. >> only people for excuses for losing are people who should probably be out. i can't understand why there's not more pressure to get out. in 2008, there was a crushing voices from the media -- she did and she was still winning -- i can't imagine what reason there is other than the chaos on the

republican side for him staying in and doing her damage. he's calling her unqualified -- >> making contributions. >> can't be the nominee. >> people believe in that. >> to call her unqualified and question her ethics. if the republicans were in a stronger position -- >> it's a reason for him to continue, you still have a small number of states left but we've come this far in the process and voters -- >> there's nowhere to go. >> made it very clear they want to weigh in. let's give people a chance. >> it's called democracy. >> you have to be the nominee. >> if you listen to the end of the interview, he's quite positive about the future of the party. >> oddly conciliatory at the end. >> yes. >> he knows he's going to lose. >> but he's willing to offer the branch to secretary clinton and say if she wins the nomination, trump is the make target for democrats and the party will come together. i was struck by that moment at the end, in spite of all we've seen, that his closing statement. >> i want to go, let's turn back

to the republicans here. it was interesting to see is trump pivoting to a general election, had to do with comments he made about caitlyn jenner and bathrooms. >> you leave it the way it is. there have been few complaints the way it is. people go and use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate. there has been so little trouble. >> if caitlyn would want to use the trump tower, you would be fine with her using any bathroom she chooses? >> that's correct. >> the cruz campaign has unloaded on those documents. let me show you. >> guess who joined the ranks of the pc police. >> they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate. >> donald trump can't be trusted for common sense, why would we trust him in the white house? >> nicole, haven't seen an attack ad in a long time, that's

what he chose to do. effective or not? >> here's where trump is an insult wrapped in a riddle -- what's also on the line in this cycle is the power and sal entcy of social issues. if trump wins, it delivers a massive blow to the idea you have to be up and down on issues. >> i was surprised by cruz's decision to do that. >> in order to win the coming states, he has to rouse the social conservatives. trump's answer tells us a lot about how he would be in a general election. he's someone forged in new york's tabloid business culture and has relationships with all kinds of people, not just someone who surrounded himselves with republicans and conservatives and that worries democrats, that he would be appealing to moderates. >> hillary clinton has a web video also using the "today" show moment to make a different

point from ted cruz. watch. >> i will be changing very rapidly. i'm very capable of changing to anything i want to change to. >> then they go on to play, it's a very long thing. they wasn't to call it an etch a sketch moment. >> donald trump has exposed the fact a lot of the base of the republican party are not movement conservatives who spent anywhere entire lives poring over conservative believe and what he said is common sense. he could be anything in the general election, he could pivot back on social issues to a place where he's not offending democratic -- >> that's on that but offend african-american women and -- >> let's not forget most across the border. >> the bathroom issue brought cruz and clinton together. >>. sort of. >> got him a lot of credit with the a lot of people.

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president obama has been on the world stage this week, meeting the queen of england and a future king, prince george. even stayed up past his bedtime to meet the president.

he got a smau chilly resemgz in saudi arabia, where he was greeted on the tarmac by a relatively minor member of the royal family. just the governor of riyadh. roughly the equivalent of the united states sending a local governor to greet a major foreign leader when they land on u.s. soil. u.s./saudi relations are strained with renewed calls in washington to declassify 28 pages of a congressional report on 9/11 that some believe allege some direct links to the arab kingdom when it comes to the 9/11 attacks. it's a link the saudis have strenuously denied for years. i'm joined by one of the chief proponents of declassifying the pages. bob graham of florida served as co-chair of the committee. a familiar face in that period of time, welcome back to "washington post." >> thank you, chuck. >> let's go right to the specifics of the 28 pages. what is in them that the american high levels of american

officials and saudi officials fear will change things if they become public? >> chuck, to me, the most important unanswered question of 9/11 is did these 19 people conduct the very sophisticated plot alone or were they supported? i think it's implausible to think people who couldn't speak english, had never been in the united states before as a group were not well educated, could have done that. so who was the most likely entity to have provided them that support ini think all the evidence point to saudi arabia. we know that saudi arabia started al qaeda. it was a creation of saudi arabia. >> when you say saudi arabia, are you saying the government or are you saying wealthy individuals who happen to be saudi arabian? >> that is a very murky line. saudi arabia has made it murky by its own legal action. whenever a u.s. group sues a saudi arabian entity, whether

it's a bank, a foundation, a charity, immediately the defense of sovereign immunity is raised. the saudis don't recognize the difference between a royal decision and a societal decision in the same way that other countries might. so i think it covers a broad range from the highest ranks of the kingdom through these what would be private entities. >> okay, if this gets released publ publicly, and again, i know you don't want to say what's in it. let me ask you this. one description of these 28 pages is it's basically an initial police report, that if you looked at it, you would say, wow, we should investigate that, that, that, and that more. is that the best way to describe this? >> no. this report was 850 pages. this is 28 pages out of that. there's been no questions raised about the professionalism and

quality of the other 820 pages in this report. and this chapter followed the same standards that they did. instead of debating what might be there, why don't we let the american people read the 28 pages and the other thousands of documents that have been withhold that relate to the saudi involvement in 9/11, and then make up their own minds. >> what keeps this from -- why is it that -- why do i feel like candidate barack obama or senator barack obama might be in a different place? what is it within the minute somebody gets into the executive branch, republican or democrat, there is this consensus publicly to protect saudi arabia? >> i think it goes back to the fact that 60 years ago, franklin roosevelt and the king of saudi arabia entered into a special relationship. we provided them with security. they provided us with petroleum. and that has affected the culture and the attitude around this relationship. but i think it's fundamentally

changed. it's changing almost on a daily basis, as we are less dependent on the saudis for petroleum, as some of the things that the saudis are doing are so dramatically adverse to our interests, such as training the next generation of young terrorists in their mosques and schools, their madrassas. the schism between the united states and saudi arabia is now very apparent. i think this is the time to inject the truth of that relationship in the process of deciding what we should be doing in the future. >> the president, can he order the declassification on his own? >> yes, the president has the full responsibility and authority to do so. i hope he will do so. again, not only for these 28 pages but there are 80,000 documents in a federal courtroom in ft. lauderdale, florida, relative to an investigation

that took place on a relationship between mohammedata, the leader, and two of his henchmen and a prominent saudi family living in sarasota. >> on a scale of 1 to 10, the release of these pages, how would you rate the impact on u.s./saudi relations if they go public? >> 7.838. >> very accurate there. so you think it will have a high level negative impacts? >> yes. >> senator bob graham, we'll leave it there. do you think we'll get it done? >> the president's staff has said they'll make a decision by june. and i hope that decision is to honor the american people and make it available. >> senator bob graham, thanks for coming in. good to see you. >> we'll be back in 45 seconds. a little end game segment, and the game that always gets played late in presidential primary campaigns, veep stakes. a weird one this year. who will hillary clinton pick as a running mate?

we'll be right back. coming up, "meet the press" end game. end game. brought to you by boeing. - if everyone carpooled just one day a week, we could reduce traffic by 20%. with fewer cars on the road, we might reduce our commute time and our carbon footprint. do your part and share a ride this week. the more you know.

end game time. the panel is here. part of me wants to delve more into the saudi thing. especially, there's a lot there. let's go to the "new york times" throughout the first of the veep stakes when it comes to at least hillary clinton. and i think we have an idea of what the hillary clinton short list is, and then the people that they have to publicly say they're vetting.

let me put up the first five that were mentioned. this feels like an actual clinton official saying this is who the first five preferences are. the two virginia senators and former governors, tim keene and mark warner. former governor deval patrick of massachuset massachusetts. and the labor secretary, tom perez, who joy, i want to start with you. i want to start with him, because he is basically earned his way onto the clinton campaign's decision to make him on the short list. this came from a clinton official, and it was perez they put on there initial a. you're not hearing as much about julian castro, who people fell in love with. >> with castro, maybe the idea of the age, the juxtaposition of him and hillary clinton. so i think there is this thinking that either the clinton campaign, just sort of in talking to the clinton world, that they either feel like they

need to have a latino to pair with him to galvanize the latino electorate or they need to fix their white male problem and go with somebody who is a progressive white male or al franken, somebody like that, who would be outside of the box. >> the clinton campaign said, sure, we might look at elizabeth warren. other names, julian castro, elizabeth warren, amy klobuchar, cory booker, and then there was bill nelson, which i may have made, and it seemed to have been thrown in there, you're the flor riddian -- >> for florida. >> hillary clinton loves the idea that bush and obama have had running mates who basically were not going to pursue the presidency while being vice president. >> i think ross perot said when he was running for president, in his corporate life, he didn't hire anyone who did wan't want

job. that's the antithesis of that. but don't real out secretary castro either. he's an extremely caharismatic person. and tim kaine speaks perfect spanish, reaches out to the community, the hispanic community through tellemundo regularly. these are people who may be hidden, have hidden weapons. >> i'm hoping it's brown because i can do a shaerrod brown. deval patrick was intriguing to me. >> the identity politics reek -- >> you don't think we'll see it on your side? >> the debate on the republican side isn't who they would pick. it's who would do it. we're in a totally different place, being honest. this is where republicans pull their hairs. there's such an opportunity on the republican side because this is all about identity politics. it feels very cynical. >> the entire marco rubio rubio was about politics and say figure we just throw a latino at the electorate --

>> you saw how it ended. republicans don't fall for it. >> the leadership did, invoters rejected it. >> where is the running mate going on the republican side? >> in 1976, ronald reagan picked richard schweiger. at the rnc, they were saying cruz and kasich are considering picking a running mate heading into cleveland to try to get a bounce for their campaigns. >> that's going to be fun. we get four veep stakes instead of two. anyway, you guy were terrific. finally, in memory of prince, bruce springsteen started this show last night by playing a prince classic "purple rain" so we're going to end our broadcast the same way, with bruce playing prince. and of course, as always, if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪ purple rain purple rain

♪ purple rain purple rain it's monday, april 25th. coming up on "early today," teaming up to stop the donald. ted cruz and john kasich join forces ahead of tomorrow's five-state primary, but is it too little, too late? president obama plans to send 250 more personnel to syria to fight isis. the manhunt continues for the killers of eight family members in what police call a pre-planned execution. plus, new details surrounding the death of prince, ago as his body was cremated over the weekend. and some dicey weather ahead as we kick off a new week. "early today" starts right now. good monday morning, i'm dara brown. the stop trump movement has its biggest backing yet in the form of an alliance between ted cruz and john kasich.