this sunday, another tumultuous week in washington. >> anthony wants general kelly to be able to operate fully with a clean slate. >> a white house staff shake-up. congress leaves town after getting nothing done. the russia investigation expands again. this time to include grand juries. and president trump continues t call it, all of it, a hoax. >> the russia story is a total fabrication. it's just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american politics. that's all it is. >> it all sounds so familiar. so why do we keep having weeks like this? this morning our broken politics, two parties searching for their identities. the republicans -- >> i think to be conservative

can't be to embrace conspiracy theories or to talk about alternative facts. >> i'll talk to senator jeff flake of arizona who took on his own republican party for not sticking to its principles. and the democrats. >> you have to say leadership has not been clever enough or strong enough or perhaps visionary enough. >> my interview with california governor jerry brown and how the democrats have managed to become a minority party in washington, in statehouses, and secret v voted out of the white house. we agree washington is not working. what can we do to fix it? joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. heather mcgee, president of demos and david french, senior writer for the national review. welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in

television history, celebrating its 70th year, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. what was extraordinary about this week was how ordinary it was. the russia investigation heated up again. there was a shake-up in the white house -- again. congress couldn't get anything done -- again. there was talk of reviving the republican health care rewrite -- again. still two things stood out to us. one was that president trump's approval rating hit 33% in the latest quinnipiac poll, his lowest number yet in that poll. and the rapturous welcome he received in west virginia when he attacked the investigation and the news media. >> the russia story is a total fabrication this. it's just an excuse for greatest loss in the history of american politics. it just makes them feel better when they have nothing else to talk about. >> this is where we are. our politics is broken.

there are a lot of suspects, too much money, gerrymandering, growing cultural divide. but if there's one thing our parties can agree on, they don't agree on much. today we'll focus on our broken political parties specifically. consider this -- republicans have never seen more sentiment. they have more dpgovernors in multiple generations yet can't get anything done. e demographics are moving rel t relentlessly in the democrats' way but they can't win elections. both sides are focused more on the issue of winning the next election, firing up the base, talking to people who already agree with them, than they are about persuading people to eventually agree with them. senator jeff flake of arizona took after his own republican party perhaps to his own peril when he wrote this in politico magazine this week. "it was we conservatives who upon obama's electioned state stated our number one priority was not advancing a conservative poll i v si agenda but making

him a one-term president." could senator flake's words describe democrats in the age of trump? we'll goat that and to the democrats later in the broadcast. joining me now to talk about the republican party is the author of that politico magazine column, senator jeff flake of arizona. welcome back to "meet the pre " press." >> thanks for having me on. >> your book felt like two-pronged attack, if you will, on the state of the republican party today. first on the character of the president and then more on the issue of what's happened to conservativism. i want to focus on the issue of trump and conservativism here. you wrote the following -- "too often when it comes to trump we observe the unfolding drama with the rest of the country passively, all but saying someone should do something without seeming to realize that someone is us." in defense of the republican field and conservatives in 2016, a lot of conservatives warned

the country that donald trump wasn't one. take a listen. >> donald trump's candidacy is a cancer on conservativism and it must be clearly diagnosed, excised, and discarded. >> donald trump and lil's policy views on issue after issue are virtually indistinguishable. >> i'm not afraid of losing an election. i'm afraid of losing our soul. >> it bothers me that someone comes to hijack that cause. donald trump's not a conservative. >> i will go anywhere to speak to anyone before i let a con artist get a hold of the republican party and the conservative movement. >> senator, why didn't conservatives listen to ted cruz, jeb bush, marco rubio, rick perry, all who laid it out starkly on the issue of donald trump and conservativism? >> well, what i do in the book, borrowed from barry goldwater's tome in 1960, he thought that the party had kind of given in

to the new deal and felt that he ought to put a blueprint forward for conservativism. i think today conservativism has kind of been compromised by populism, and people might say, well, we have the house, we have the senate, we have the white house, republicans do, but not long ago we had that in 2006, and we lost it because i don't think we acted very conservative are with all the spending and everything else that went on. so i think that just because we have the house and senate and the white house we can't rest easy and we can't say that populism is a governing philosophy because i don't believe that it is. >> what -- i am curious, what motivated you to write this book? donald trump's character or this issue with conservativism that you're just making the argument and others have made to me before that actuallies go back 20 years? >> well, i started writing this book before donald trump became president. but i am concerned at the direction that the party's

going. protectionism in particular, kind of the anti-immigrant fervor. those kind of things i don't think are going to propel republicans into the future. i think demographics are against us in that regard and i think that we've got to do something different. >> i guess i go back, if donald trump, you thought he was a man of good ccharacter, but was stil touting the same populism, protectionism, as you just described it, when it comes to trade issues, some things that have been -- stuff that conservatives have argued against for years, would you have written this book with the same tone? >> well, i do think that it's not -- to be a conservative isn't just to follow conservative principles in terms of limited government, the economic freedom, free trade, but it is conservative in terps of comportment and behavior. and i don't think that we've soon that out of the white house. it's not conservative on foreign policy, for example, to keep

your allies guessing as to where you are and what you support. a conservative is steady and measured and sober in terms of implementation of diplomacy and use of force. and i think that that is lacking and i think that we of got to change course in that regard. >> well, let me ask you this -- what would you -- going in hindsight now, what should the conservative movement have done in 2016 that they didn't do? you know, mitt romney spoke out, national review did a famous never trump endorsement, if you will, endorsing anybody but. none of it seemed to work. in hindsight, is there anything you would have done differently as a conservative leader? >> well, i'm not denying that populism isn't popular. that's why it's called populism. the problem is i think it's a first and foremost a duty of conservatives to tell the truth to the constituency.

and it's easy to point to a shuttered factory and say, hey, if we just negotiated better trade deals, then those jobs would be there when really it's automation and productivity gains. it's much more complex. my concern is that if populism is a sugar high and once you come off it, it's particularly troublesome for the party. and so i wish that we would have been more truthful with the e lkt r electorate in terps of what we can and cannot do in washington. >> but you were pretty rough on some conservatives. look, the movement was split, right? you had some that stuck to their guns on this, and others that you called willing accomplices. in fact, you write this on page 110, "we to forgot to affirm in a voice loud and clear, yes, we are proud republicans but we believe in country before party. we forgot to do that. we were afraid to do that." you're clearly not afraid to d that. is your party?

is the conservative movement still afraid? >> well, i do think that we of soon more people ready to stand up, and i wish that we as a party would have stood up, for example, when the birtherism thing was going on. a lot-people did stand up but not enough. >> did you do enough? >> that was particularly ugly. >> just curious, did you? >> on that i any i did. but on other things as well, i mean, when -- our party, you know, during rallies when the chants "lock her up," you know, we should .the party for jailing your political opponents. and anybody at that rally, anybody at those rallies ought to stand up and say that's inappropriate. we shouldn't be doing that. i wish we as a party and e lkted officials would do more of that or when particularly ugly conspiracy theories come out or simply fake news, stuff that is demonstrably false, we ought to stand up and say that's just not right. >> what if nor leaders in your

party don't? i mean, is there a point you say to yourself -- because i read this book, and again, i go back, it's as much of an indictment on the republican leadership of the last 15 years as it is on donald trump. in fact, it's more of an indictment on the republican leadership. and i am just curious, did you think about leaving the party? >> no. no. not at all. i'm a proud republican, lifelong republican. and i'm from arizona. arizona tends to elect independent-minded people and people who stand on principle. so i'm doing what i think my voters expect of me. but i think, for example, in 2006 when the party in particular had given way to inappropriate spending, earmark spending, couple of our colleagues ended up in jail, if you remember, the mantra "drain the swamp" was employed very effectively by the democrats in tribing the republican party at that time. i think had we stood up at that time when he wouldn't have lost those majorities in the house and the senate and i fear that

we might do the same again. >> you had strong words in this book, and yet we looked at your voting record an at this point you vote more with the president than even some others in the senate who have taken the president on. according to our account, here 93.5% of the time you have voted with the president. is there a point where you're now -- you will vote potentially against your own ideological interests in order to send a message to republican leadership, in order to send a message to president trump? i guess the question is, when does character trump ideology for you? >> well, what we've don in the senate so far in the first six months of any presidency, we're in the personnel business and all we're doing really is approving the president's cabinet picks, justices. the president named the great supreme court justice. i was glad to support him in that. regulatory policy. i think he's on the right track. i think tax reform, he has good instincts there. i'll probably be with him.

but on many things like trade i expect to vote against the president and i'll stand up just like i did when president bush was there, i voted against no child left behind and the prescription drug benefit, but i was with him on most things. i think i'll do the same here. i'll vote with the president when i believe he's right and vote against him when i think he's wrong. >> okay. the tone you're taking here doesn't sound like the man who wrote this book. the man who wrote this book sounds like you feel as if there's a sense of urgency here. things are so broke en in the conservative movement we can't stand pat anymore. but you sound like you're figuring out how to tiptoe around this still. is there a point where you're not tiptoeing? >> let me just say that during the voting, we haven't voted on much where you could distinguish yourself from the direction the president is going. having said that, some of the executive orders that he's taken, for example, on the muslim ban, well, it was a muslim ban during the campaign, what became the travel ban, i

very much spoke up against that. i don't think that's what's going on around the country's in our national security interest. i don't think that's the direction to go. the immigration proposal that was put forward last week, i think it's fine to move to a point system. we did that in the bipartisan bill that we did in the senate. but you can't cut immigration, legal immigration, in half and so i'll stand up against that. and the behavior in the white house as well. i mean, referring to our colleagues across the aisle as losers or clowns is just not the direction to go if we are going to solve the problems in a conservative way that we nood to. so i'll stand up every time to the president when he's doing things that i don't think he should be doing, but in terms of votes, we haven't had that many other than personnel to distinguish ourselves either way. >> how do you fix the senate, though? it's a very leadership-driven operation. both parties have accepted this premise that the rank and file are not to decide where legislation goes, only the leadership. part of your book indicts that

leadership. how should mitch mcconnell respond to your book? >> well, i think that we realize the limits of what we can do, you know, with one party, with just republican votes. and i'm not faulting mitch mcconnell at all. he is a tough job. but i do think that we're going the sit down across the aisle with our colleagues and fix these things. if we're going the fix the big things that we nood eed to fix particular our debt and deficit, that has to be done with republicans and democrats. there's no way one party will take the risk. that's what is so broken about our politics is we just can't get together on the big things and as conservatives we simply can't enact conservative policy if we continue these tactics. i'm going to have to leave it there. we'll discuss the lost middle in american politics up next when we dptget a chance. senator jeff flake, thanks for coming on. appreciate it. >> thank you.

up next, we're going the look at how the divisions within the gop are handcuffing and frustrating the president right now, especially when it comes to his favorite topic, russia. and later, we'll look at the troubles the democrats are face with california governor jerry brown. and as we go to break throughout the show, you'll see some trends and statistics about how our politics has changed in the last generation. first up, simply how the red-blue map has evolved in the last 40 years from '76 to '16. ♪ (music plays throughout) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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president -- >> did that actually get -- >> i know, sometimes you're like -- um, i am struck by senator flake's, it's a two-pronged attack on the party, trump's character, conservatism, what should -- what are you gleaning from this? >> well, what i'm gleaning from this. let's keep this very real. okay. we focus an awful lot on politicians and what are politicians doings, but, there's the people. and i live in the middle of trump country. my precinct went for trump by about 72%, what i can tell you, there is a market for what trump is selling. >> uh-huh. >> and we cannot ignore and can't focus complete oi on washington. what we are overrun is negative polarization. this is what the pew foundation has measured. people are supporting republicans not because of what they stand for, but because there's so much hostility to democrats. and that's, that's what it's about. it's about fighting, fighting we

can fighting. >> it's funny you say that. listen to mitch mcconnell, we have audio, fancy farm pick mic, here's his explanation for the upside of not getting health care done, take a listen. >> even on the night we came up one vote short of our grand reveal to replace obamacare. feel better, hillary clinton could be president. >> talk about just underscoring david's point right there, dan. >> and it's, you saw that with president trump this weekend in west virginia. the same kind of message. it's an antianti message. there's little that either side frankly has put up positively since trump was elected president and before that. i don't think that we know this didn't start with donald trump, this condition that we're in, but that, that is what's driving. if you look at the statistics on how people feel about their own party over the last 25 years, it's basically the same. they feel as good about their

party as they did 20 or 25 years ago. when you look at how they feel about the opposition party, that line has gone straight down. >> wait until you see a marriage stat i'm going to show people when it comes to marrying of the opposite political party. i guess the question is when the republican's party trump or the fact that they, they don't know what the definition of conservative is right now? >> i think it's a combination. it's partly because they have this republican president who is not really a republican and not really a conservative. and, what jeff flake was talking about is that he voted against prescription drugs, he voted against the george w. bush proposals that busted the budget in his view. he views himself as a real conservative. he's making a distinction between conservatism and populism, and i think that's a good conversation to have for republicans as well as democrats. what you're seeing, david, in your precinct and elsewhere and certainly in west virginia which is ground zero of trump country, is, anger against elites. people feeling that they've been passed over, anger, you know,

you see the state, the stats on anger against league colleges, even among those college-educated. extraordinary. so it's anger against all of us, the media, as well, and trump has just tapped into that. and i really appreciated that jeff flake said the locker up, those cries at the republican convention by michael flynn no less, the call and response was really a nayier of -- what i view as the republican party. >> she referenced a stat here i want to put it up here on this issue, anti-intellectual streak, 58% of republicans believe colleges and universities have a negative effect on the way things are going in this country. that is a -- i mean, it was a startling, wait a minute, i thought we all agreed college is good. we can have a debate about openness in ideologies at universities, but when did we go

all the way there? >> well, i think you really have to sort of follow the threat of this narrative. you know, republican strategist began to really recognize how much more highly educated folks were trending towards being more liberal. and we can talk about why that might be, republicans would say it's a nefarious liberal bias on liberal campuses, it's the more than you study the history and the world, you understand how we've fallen short and you want to tend to work more veraciously towards those goals, but if you look at right-wing media. a narrative has taken root, it's like the liberal outrage campus of the day. and that's why that's coming from. there's been a spotlight, a distortion of the news of what is coming out of college campuses, it's very clear, you start to see it pop breitbart and fox news and then it moves into the republican voter. >> you were just telling me a story of somebody accusing you of being in your ivory tower and

it was a republican with a pen initiation. >> i was talking about character and politics and ivy league lawsuit conservative student told me a i was an ivory tower -- >> that's the right wing talking point now. >> and you're an iraq war veteran. >> but i will say this about the college and university piece, and i'm sure we'll get to this later. nobody made up the berkeley riots, nobody made up the attacks on, you know, on charles murray at middle berry, the craziness at evergreen state college. these things are actually happening. and they do really cast -- >> actually happening, but also young people who are first generation college students are going to college and having more opportunities than they ever would have had, but the right wing media is focussing on making a national story out of a speaker coming to campus. >> and free speech -- >> it's a distortion. >> throughout the ivory league and elsewhere, and the elite

schools, there are free speech mandates really to permit these speakers. it is as heather points out, just the sort of outliers who get focus -- >> i want to go back to the issue, if this were simply a debate about conservatism versus populism, it would be one thing, but it's trump's character, dan, that frankly complicates the debate for the right. >> well, it does, although, i think there's two problems with the pregame party has, and two different debates that they're having. there's the debate that was o during pre-donald trump which was, in a sense kind of a ted cruz view of the world versus the marco rubio view of the world. do we need a hard line conservative to carry our banner or do we need to have something that someone who reaches out and expands the coalition? that debate got smothered in 2016 my donald trump who brought in populism. now you have this multiple clash within the party. and trump's behavior, trump's style, trump's operating style,

changes the way a lot of people think about all of those aspects. >> i think that senator flake has done a great service, actually, to the debate. i think that what he's doing right now is extremely important, you know, he says, we, the republican party, created donald trump. i think that his diagnoses are spot on. i think his prescription about what to do about it is cosmetic. i mean, he says, you know, basically that donald trump is now a threat to republican, only the congress can save him. stop him, and then he just falls a little bit short. >> david, what should we do? what is it? that was -- you're still voting with him. is he a threat or not -- if your -- -- >> well, everyone sees a conservative, i view you praise him when he's wrong, critique him with he's wrong, but you make the overall larger critique that something is very broken in the political culture and he's a big part of that. and so you can vote for lower tax rates, but don't lose sight

of the bigger picture which says, donald trump is doing something to american politic that is very, very negative. >> i'm going to have to make that the last thing. we're going to get into this. we have more time for all of you, i promise. coming up, the man who embodies many of the changes the democratic party has gone through over the last four decades. california governor jerry brown. (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything so we know how to cover almost anything. even a swing set standoff. and we covered it, july first, twenty-fifteen.

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