pressuring ukraine to conduct investigations that would help him politically >> well, i would think that if they were honest about it, they would start majoa r investigation into the bidens. >> and then says china should too. >> likewise, china should start an investigation into the bidens. >> there is no evidence of wrongdoing by biden. and he pushes back >> all of this talk by the president about corruption comes from the most corrupt president he has had in modern history >> as democrats move forward with their impeachment inquiry. >> we're not fooling around here >> most republicans defend mr.

trump. >> there is nothing criminal about it >> while some remain conscious >> the president will say yea, ney, the president is going to say whatever the president is going to do. >> my guest this morning the senate pair leading advocates of aid to ukraine, republican ron johnson of wisconsin and democrat chris murphy of connecticut and former cia director john brennan. plus, the bernie sanders heart attack his health, how it could impact the race and it's a reminder that all leading candidates are in their 70s joining me for inside analysis of nbc white house correspondent kristen welker, rich lowry, o. kay henderson and rick stengel welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press". >> from nbc news washington, the longest running television show in history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd

>> good sunday morning i made the point earlier this week that a national nightmare is upon us it's not something i said lightly or say it now. but the stability of our democracy is at stake. it's a moment that so many other people, including president trump's primary opponents predicted what happened. now it's upon us in less than three weeks, we moved from a simple "washington post" story said he was pressuring ukraine to investigate biden. to this thursday, when president trump himself said out loud that, yes, ukraine, and for that matter, china, should investigate biden. in other words, you're darned right i did it there's nothing wrong with it. and here i'm doing it again. what are you going to do about it so this is where we are. the president of the united states calling on foreign governments, plural, to help him in next year's election. house democrats are now all but certain to impeach him senate republicans perhaps are all but certain to acquit him. a country more divided against

itself than at any point in our lifetime perhaps every member of congress, republican and democrat, would do well to heed the words of kurt volker, the former diplomat caught up in this issue here's what he said in his opening statement to congressional investigators. i at some stage found myself faced with a choice to be aware of a problem and to ignore it or rather to accept that it was my responsibility to try to fix it. >> what exactly did you hope zelensky would do about the bidens on the phone call >> well, i would think if they were honest about it, they would start a major investigation into the bidens gation into the bidens. >> the president repeated his unprecedented request of a foreign power to investigate a political opponent. this time in public. . >> >> likewise, china should start an investigation into the bidens because what happened to china is just about as bad as what happened with ukraine. >> the evidence that the president has solicited foreign

help to discredit his political opponents and directed his attorney general to do so as well is piling up. >> the president has confessed to these violations of his oath of office. >> explosive newly released text messages make clear that military aid for ukraine and a trip to washington were conditioned on ukraine's commitment to investigate biden and the origins of the mueller probe. july 19th, kurt volker, then u.s. envoy to ukraine texted gordon sonde lad, u.s. ambassadorstigation. july 25th, minutes before the had breakfast with rudy this morning. most important is for zelensky to say he will help investigation. july 25th, minutes before the trump-zelensky phone call, he texted an aide heard from the white house assuming president z convinces trump he will investigate, quote, get to the bottom of what happened, unquote, in 2016 we will nail down date for visit to washington. after military aid to ukraine is

frozen, bill taylor, top u.s. diplomatuk objects, texting on september 9th, as i said on the phone, i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign a few hours later sondland responds in a much more formal manner, i believe you are incorrect about president trump's intentions the president has been crystal clear. no quid pro quos of any kind when a key republican senator, ron johnson, heard from sondland that the money's release was con ten gentlemen upon an investigation, he said he called president trump on august 31st who told him, expletive, no way. i would never do that. who told you that? president about corruption comes from the most corrupt president we have had in modern history. >> most congressional republicans so far have been supportive of the president, been silent or simply deflected. >> i don't know if that's a real request or him just needling the

press knowing you would get outraged by it. >> i was saying yea, ney, whatever. the president is going to say whatever the president is going to say. >> he tweeted by all appearances the president's brazen and unprecedented appeal to china and the ukraine to investigate joe biden is wrong and appalling. >> i'm now joined by two members of the senate foreign relations wheat who were spent a lot of time working together, senator ron johnson and senator chris murphy. senator johnson, welcome back to "meet the press", sir. >> good morning, chuck. >> let me start with something you told "the wall street journal" late last week. you had said when mr. sondland seemed to imply that the frozen military aid was connected to a promise by zelensky for investigations, you said at that suggestion i winced. my reaction was, oh, god, i don't want to see those two

things combined. why did you wince? >> it was typically very unbiased. let me first, before i start swerinall the detailed questions, let me talk about why i'm sympathetic what president trump has gone through. i'm 63 years old. i have never seen a president, not having some measure of well wishes from his opponents. i have never seen a president -- administration be sabotaged the day after an election. i have seen no measure of honeymoon whatsoever. so what president trump had to endure, a false accusation. by the way, you have john brennan on. ask director brennan what did peter strzok men when he texted lisa page in 2016. >> senator, can we -- >> chuck, let me finish. ukraine scorned -- >> what does this have to do with ukraine? >> it has everything to do with

ukraine. listen. our sisters leaking like mad. scorned. they are kicking into overdrive. that was december 15th. six days before that is when we first started hearing the cia leaking about russia supporting the trump campaign. that is why trump is so upset. he had this false narrative. it resulted in him being set up by james comey january 16th. then he has -- >> senator -- >> it hampered his entire investigation -- his entire administration. and now, once he was -- that was proven false. >> yeah. >> he would like to know and i would like to know and i know his supporters would like to know, where did this all come from? who planted that false story. >> senator -- >> i have my third letter into the inspector general. >> all right, senator. >> asking him to just confirm, just confirm are you investigating those leaks that peter strzok talked about. >> senatorive no idea why -- >> that's a setup. it is entirely relevant to this

point. >> why a fox news conspiracy propaganda is popping up here. i have no idea why we are going here. senator, i'm asking -- >> that is why president trump is upset and why supporters are upset with the news media. >> this is not about the media. senator johnson -- senator johnson, please. can we please answer the question i asked you instead of trying to make donald trump feel better that you are not criticizing him. >> i'm not. >> i'm just trying to ask you a simple question what made you wince? i'm asking a simple question about you clearly were upset that somehow there was an implication that military aid was being frozen because the president wanted an investigation. why did you wince? >> because i didn't want those connected. and i was supporting the aid, as is senator murphy and everyone who went to that initial

inauguration. here's the saline point why i came forward. when i asked the president about that, he completely adamant, vehemently angrily denied it. that is the piece of puzzle i'm here to report today, unlike the narrative of the press that president trump wants to dig up dirt on his 2020 opponent. what he wants is he wants an accounting of what happened in 2016. who set him up? did things spring from ukraine? we got an oversight letter from politico in 2017 where let me quote the article. it says ukrainian government officials tried to help hbg and undermine trump. they did so by disseminating documents implicating a top trump aide and suggested they were investigating the matter. ukraine officials helped allies, research damaging information on trump and his advisers. there is potential interference in 2016. that's what trump wants to get to the bottom of. but the press doesn't want to.

john solomon is being called a conspiracy theorist. i'm being called a conspiracy theorist because the press is horribly biased. >> look, i understand that a way to avoidancing a question is to attack us in the press. i'm well aware of that. >> no. >> let me ask you something am ba bass door volker said oath. he said this. in explained that i believe that mayor giuliani continues to have a negative view of ukraine based on assertions of actions in 2016 and this viewpoint is likely making its way to the president. were you concerned that rudy giuliani's disinformation campaign sort of ukrainian propaganda campaign was negatively influencing the president's views of the current ukrainian president? >> well, not only from rudy giuliani but ken vokel.

the "washington post" is now attacking him, undermining him. all of that information we never got the answers to those questions. chuck, i want to get to the truth. i'm not here defending the president. i'm not here to denounce him either. what i'm here is telling my piece of the puzzle here, giving my honest assessment of what i heard, how the president told me repeatedly in the may 23rd oval office visit on the phone on the 31st the reason he had very legitimate concerns and reservations about ukraine is first corruption, generalized. it is endemic. >> do you think paul manafort was framed? do you think paul manafort was framed? do you think paul manafort was framed? >> no. obviously he was convicted. but there was a lot of other stuff going on then. hillary clinton's campaign was searching for dirt. maybe not only on paul manafort but trying to keep vice president biden out of the primary for the democratic campaign.

so, again, chuck, the bottom line is -- >> let me ask you this, senator. >> no, ask john brennan what was -- what did peter strzok mean when they started leaking like mad. what was the cia scorned and worry about? why were they kicking into overdrive? that is a key question i want answered among i don't know 100 -- >> do you not believe the russians interfered in the elections to benefit donald trump. >> they absolutely did. and i don't know to what extent the ukrainians did, dnc and hillary clinton campaign were involved in juicing up the ukrainian involvement. there are a lot of unanswered questions. chuck, i just want the truth. >> do you not trust the fbi? you don't trust the cia? >> no, no, i don't. absolutely not. after peter strzok and lisa page? after james comey. >> you believe the fbi and the cia -- >> i don't trust any of these guys in the obama

administration. >> and you don't trust them now. >> no, i didn't trust them then. >> do you trust them now. do you trust the fbi and cia now? any of the conclusions you are trying to come to, i'm curious, do you trust them now? >> who are you talking about? >> the cia and the fbi. >> i don't trust andrew mccabe. i don't trust james comey, peter strzok, i don't trust john brennan. >> senator, let me ask you this. >> i have a lot of questions -- >> one of the things that you came on here to do >> i want the truth. >> so would i. >> you set this up totally biased. i couldn't get into the full narrative. we don't have enough time to go through all the things to talk about. >> you're right. because you came here to talk about lisa page and peter strzok. >> it was totally biased that i would never be able to get the truth out. >> senator, i don't know why you came on here to personally attack the press and avoidancing

questions. >> because of your setup piece. >> senator, it's pretty clear we are only dealing with the facts that we have. . >> no. that's what i want to do and i can't get the answers. and i can't get the answers. the american people can't get the answers something pretty fishy happened during the 2016 campgn in the transition. >> yeah. >> the early part of the trump presidency, and we still don't know. robert mueller. >> we do know the answers. you're choosing not to -- you're just making a choice -- you're making a choice not to believe. >> we will get to the bottom of this. >> you're making a choice not to believe the investigations that have taken place. multiple. >> no, rhyme tryii'm trying to truth. >> and the truth is only when it bets what you believe is politically comfortable for you? what truth are you looking for? >> i want the truth complete. . >> so are we. i'm sorry that you chose to come on this way, senator. thank you very much. >> you started the piece that way. >> joining me now is senator

murphy of connecticut. senator murphy, thanks for coming on. a question i was trying to get to the senator was if he shared his concerns about the linkage of military aid and the president's decision to want an investigation. did you ever hear senator johnson wince? did he talk about it with you. you guys were traveling a lot together. i'm just curious. >> first of all, ron is a good friend but i'm deeply scared by the positioning that republicans have chosen to take. that interview was just a giant green light to the president of the united states to continue to solicit foreign interference in u.s. elections. he telegraphed that he is going to ask china to do the same thing that he asked the ukrainians to do this week because republicans are allowing him to do it. and this entire country should be scared that at a moment when we need patriots we are getting blind patterson loyalty. the texts make it clear there was a quid pro quo to the table.

that the state department, the white house, the president's personal lawyers were all working to try to get the ukrainians to interfere in the 2020 election in exchange for access for the white house and likely the resumption of aid. now, i didn't hear senator johnson make that connection in ukraine. and as i have said previously, neither did i hear president zelensky make that connection. >> so senator johnson, he implied and he had heard about this. so, again, you were working pretty closely on this same situation. did gordan sondland make this clear to you that the issues were connected? >> no. when we went to meet with the president in early exteseptembeo one told us the two were connected. of course it stood to reason that the two were connected in ukraine. there were many people who were under the impression they must be because this aide had been cut off with no process, with no

bipartisan notification. and there was an outstanding request to zelensky to interfere with the united states election that he was not a seeding to it. so there is a reason these two are connected. we know from the text messages that they absolutely were connected. they were telling zelensky, if you want to see the president, if you want to normalize relations with the united states, you need to start investigating the president's political opponents. and now republicans are basically inviting the president to do that over and over and over again. >> when did you find out the aide was frozen? >> i found out when it was reported in the press. so no prior notification. >> when did you get the sense that the ukrainians knew it was being frozen? they didn't know it technically had been frozen at the time of the phone call. >> i don't know when the ukrainians found out about it. what we now know is there were extensive conversations helping between kurt volker, ambassador

taylor. so clearly they had a long period of time in which they knew they had to provide what was called a deliverable interference in the 2020 election or they weren't going to see the president and they likely weren't going to get their aid. so it is interesting what time they found out about it. they found out about it in time to make it perfectly clear that he had to do trump's political bidding tpefps going to get on good footing with the white house. >> it is pretty clear republicans are fearful of even criticizing the idea of what the president is being accused of doing. fearful for even criticizing the concept of it. based on senator johnson is not one of those that is a conspiracy theorist that usually goes down these rabbit holes. how fearful are senate republicans of the president's wrath? >> listen, i don't know what senator johnson was talking about getting to the bottom of. is he doubting that russia interfered in the 2016 election?

does he think paul manafort was framed? this is wild, the lengths to which republicans are going to try to avoid being criticized by this president. listen, you have a responsibility to the constitution of the united states, right? our democracy isn't the piece of paper that it's written on. it's the decisions that we make, it is the actions we take, and the difference between the united states of america and dictatorships, we don't let president of the united states do this. they shouldn't be fearful of this president. if they vote to get rid of him, there's nothing he can do to hurt them. . >> let's be realistic, though. the president is going to do this. we're spinning up -- i mean, we have a major problem here. the comfort level that the senator had to character assassinate the show and us in this bizarre personal way i think shows you where we're headed. what do we do? >> yeah. i mean, listen, i think our only choice now is to take this to the american public. ultimately, the members of the senate want to get re-elected.

as you have seen, public opinions shift very quickly as you see more republicans go into the bunker like that. and the president go deeper into trying to get more countries to interfere in our elections. i think public opinion will change. it is true. the president seemingly can shoot somebody in the middle of 5th avenue and republicans won't care. >> do you feel powerless? >> no, i don't feel powerless. i feel this is a moment where patriots need to step up and try to save this country. and i think there are a lot of regular citizens out there that will demand their members of congress look at the facts, make a decision on the facts, not make a decision based on their loyalty to the cult of donald trump. >> democratic senator chris murphy, thank you for coming on. when we come back, president trump's war with ♪ ♪ around here, the only predictable thing about the weather is it's unpredictable. so we make the most of it when the sun does shine.

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welcome back. donald trump has been in a war most notably accepting vlad's denials. one aspect of this fight has been the extent to which mr. trump and his allies questioned his contradiction in the intel committee you saw first hand yourself in this committee. among them john brennan the cia director for nearly four years and is now the senior analyst for nbc news, mr. brennan joins me now. welcome to meet the press. >> good morning, chuck. >> look. i was going to say the focus on you the second half of our interview, obviously i have to bring this up right away. the importance of creating you as the boogeyman, as the person, as the whatever it is, your mere mention to be on this show

triggered senator johnson in this. do you understand how we got here? and how would you explain to somebody in you have been completely character assassinated and eviscerated. it doesn't matter whether the people like you or hater, everybody can agree, you have been put through this do you understand how you got here? >> well, i think it all goes back to mr. trump and his dishonesty and his complete obrit racing of the norms of honesty in terms of his public statements. he was the one who started the birther conspiracy as far as barack obama is concerned. he fabricates information and clearly the senator is running scared, if they say anything against him, they come after him with vengeance. he is the bully. i having pillaried as an example of the deep state. >> people are criticizing you for speaking out and defending yourself. i've seen other intelligence

officials well meaning and frankly i've asked you questions, are you worried that are you impacting the perception of the intelligence committee. at this point it's a campaign to destroy the intelligence committee. even now, senator johnson would not affirm he trusted the cia and fbi. what does that say about the ability to conduct the work of protecting america? >> i struggle with what my public posture would be. what i don't want to do is put the cia in a difficult situation. i feel an obligation as a former senior official to call out mr. trump when he lies to the american public, totally fabricates information to advance his agenda. so i will continue doing it. people at this time need to speak out and speak up. and it's clear that the republicans in the senate are just going along. i've had many issues with the democrat over the years. i've never seen anything like the republicans right now as far as misrepresentations of the

truth because of what donald trump has done. >> well, here's why we're here. there is, we have two sets of reities that live re. there is a 40% of the country that is only getting fed one reality, arguably 60% are debt wag i would argue sui reality. but this is a huge problem. and it's clear that whether it doesn't matter if your voters are only hearing this one thing, are we capable of gordoning ourselves with a disinformation campaign that's happening like this? >> well, until the senior officials of the republican party push back against trump, i think this is going to be a very, very long and difficult fight. because this dishonesty, this information now is overwhelming and inundating the air waves, whether it be social media news networks, they continue to push out false information. it gains traction. i can understand how so many

americans are confused. >> many will send me e-mails going how you can put a traitor like john brennan on television? >> i worked 33 years in national security. i feel good about my record. there is a lot of false information out there that people take as gospel. >> one of the things i used to do when i had to travel overseas professionally is read those cia, the public fact sheets and cia descriptions of politicsed a what's happening in that country. how would the cia assess the stability of the american government right now, if it were assessing america as if it was another country? >> we would look at it as a very corrupt government that is under the sway right now of this powerful individual who has been able to just corrupt the institutions and the laws of that country. >> what would you say about the stability of democracy? >> i think it's no longer a democracy if an autocrat has it in his hands and people like johnson and others are putty in

his hand, which means the democratic principles upon which the cotry are found are eroding right now. >> the cia would not say it's a stable dra es? >> given the tremendous political instable here which is consuming the government now. it's not able to take care of the issues that it need to address, whether it be on the domestic front or the foreign policy front. yes, there is a real question about the stability. >> the president is trying to make a big deal that the whistle blower is a member of the cia as if that somehow damages the whistle blower that they work for that entity of the government as opposed to another entity of the government. do you sense a chill in the intel committee that fear of speaking out? >> i think that is the intention of mr. trump. i'm glad to see the whistleblower did come forward. i understand there is a second one also. so a chill, yes. the women and men of cia and the

intelligence committee are among the most patriotic and dedicated americans that this country has. i think it's outrageous someone like donald trump disparages and denigrates their work. they are doing their best to keep their fellow citizens safe. so somebody of mr. trump's illk is not going to undermine and undercut their contributions to this country ever. >> john brennan, former cia director, thank you for coming on and sharing your interview. i know it means more texts. when we come back, those impeachment texts and what republicans are saying analysts next. ♪ things you can do with schwab: you can earn more when you invest your cash. ♪ you can get a satisfaction guarantee. ♪ you can also wonder why our competitors don't offer that.

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. welcome back. rick stengel author of the new book "information wars" how we lost the battle between disinformation and what we can do about it. kind of timely. and nbc white house correspondent kristen welker and author of the new book "the case for nationalism, how it made us powerful, unite and free."

rich, i will start with you. senator johnson on friday was part of the even senator ron johnson seemed to have an issue with quid pro quo. perhaps it was something that he was sensitive to and he wanted to make it clear this morning, i'm on the president's side. the demand for loyalty for this president is pretty strong. >> it's been fraught and perilous dissenting from a person of your own party. what's new is the grip the president has on the party and that he can kill your career with a couple tweets. i think there is a distinction and multiple things that can be true. there is nothing inappropriate about the president urging a foreign leader to cooperate with his attorney general on a duly constituted probe of the source of the russia investigation. what's improper and inappropriate is the focus on the bidens. it seems to me the best position for the republicans will be one i happen to agree with. i think it's true. the level and magnitude of this

defense does not justify impeaching and removing a president 12 months before an election. >> what's interesting is carl tuckerson signals the daily caller i should put it up kristen here with what he said, usually saying should not have done that phone call at all. it, donald trump should not have been on the phone with a foreign head of state edge courageing another country to investigate his political opoebt, joe biden. some republicans are trying, but their no way to spin this as a good idea. once those pose it will be in corrupt countries this does not rise to impeachment. the founders would say let the election happen. but does the president allow for that me ground? >> well, he doesn't. because look at his attacks against mitt romney, obviously, mitt romney on the other side of the spec truck, tucker karlsson is trying to walk a fine line here. i thought it was pretty remarkable tucker carlson has been a pretty remarkable ally of

this president. so i'm curious to see what tweets he receives, this is still criticism. to be sure. it's all reminiscent of how democrats defended bill clinton during his impeachment. we disagree with what he did implicitly. at the same time, it's not impeachable. the question is, does that argument work? chuck, i think we can't underscore this enough. there seems to be a second whistleblower poised to come forward. does this whistleblower change the conversation in anyway? >> kay, you are the iowan here, the red stateer in that you are seeing, you see the people that get the two different realities and some people live in one reality. some live in another reality. with ron johnson said to some people is going to sound like chuck's the crazy one and others will say johnson is the crazy one. >> what i find interesting is when i'm talking to republicans and democrats, they're not paying attention to the drip,

drip, drip of this. they couldn't name the cast of characters. number one. number two, republicans see this at least in iowa as an extension of mueller. they say, this again. and they have come to the conclusion that the president will not be convicted. on the democratic side, you go to the democratic presidential candidate events, they're not getting asked about impeachment because everybody knows where the candidates stand, number one. and democrats have largely moved on, they're choosing someone to run against donald trump and they don't think the senate will convict. >> you know, this seems to be the struggle, rick, and i think everybody has this, is that people are searching for a guardrail. right? and if i -- i think republicans would be up for some consequence if it weren't impeachment and yet nothing seems, because you got to do something to tell him to stop doing it. so far he has no consequences on any of this and i think there

are some people going can you put up a guardrail? it doesn't have to be impeachment, is what it sound like, people are frustrated there are no guard rails. >> there are no guard rails. that's a part of the rise in information. anybody can do it. social media platforms are opened to everyone. in fact, just to go back to what senator johnson started with, it's a classic russia disinformation technique what aboutism to not answer the question but to point out there is something else from the cold war the russians would say but you lynched black people when we say you don't have freedom in your country. part of the reason there is no guardrails is donald trump, himself, is the disinformationist in chief. he is the promulgator of false narratives like no one else is. what that does is give permission to people to do it. once upon a time the president's word were golden and everyone had to adhere to it. now, basically, it's open season. >> that is a problem. the president's words lack power. >> look, again, i'd make some

distinctions. the idea the dnc server is a ukraine is whacky. it's whacky. but to kay's point to you know false narratives, republican voters were told for two-an-a-half years there is this dastardly treacherous conspiracy between the president and russia. it would never seem plausible. it wasn't true. and then as they see this, whoa, it's all never mind and two month later on to something else. and that's why there is a lot of skepticism about that that's why a lot of republicans would like what ron johnson did this morning. >> how is that relationship between trump and russia? i talk about it in my book. russia said i'm going to help you. he said i welcome that help. it happened. that's collusion. the reason ukraine comes back into this now and is so important, is that ukraine is that hinge point between russia and the rest of the world, between the east and the west. what russia is fighting over is to have control over ukraine. what we used to fight for is a democratic and free ukrae,

which trump betrayed in that phone call. >> the idea that there is any deep conspiracy between the trump campaign and russiaas false. we had a huge report over it. it took two-an-a-half years. hundreds of pages. that was wrong. very few people just admitted, i thought that might be true. i was wrong. i was miscouped by all sorts of things. now we're on to a five alarm interpretation of this. >> one of the things remarkable about this moment, though, he faces this controversy and questions swirling around ukraine is that he doubled and tripled down on this all week long, called on cho into investigate joe biden. i think that's the president's strategy to effectively say look, if i say it out loud, there is nothing wrong with it. inside the white house, chuck, they have been scrambling to get another point going. >> the other point is republicans will say let trump be trump and trump will be trump. democrats are now saying the same thing. trump is being trump. >> look, german my ernst may have summed it up best.

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back now with end game and joe biden. and the debate about is joe biden fighting back hard enough? is he handling this moment the way she should be handling it? this morning here is an op ed from him and "the washington post". he writes to try to defend himself. our first president george washington famously could not tell a lie, biden writes. president trump seemingly cannot tell the truth. about ything. he slanders anyone and he sees as a threat. >> that is why he is frantically pushing flat out lies. this comes as many democrats are hand winging kristen welker a little bit. in fact the "new york times" captures it well today when they write -- now mr. biden looks more vulnerable than at any point since help entered the campaign. mr. biden has plainly suged to meethe moment, or fully reconcile his own cautious inc. tingts. >> the biden campaign thinks

they are responding appropriately and in a presidential way, given the facts, taking on trump, sticking to the issues. if you talk to the former vice president's allies, they say he's not responding forcefully enough. he's giving sort of the conventional response to this type of moment. and he's dealing with, obviously, as we have said over and over again an unconventional president and candidate. one of his allies says to me, look, he needs to be talk object about this three times a day. not once, which he did thursday night. very forbesfully, it was at night and got lost to some extent in the news cycle on friday. some of his allies i think want to see a more robust response from him. >> he did that plus piece gone, he is scratching his head, you are gift wrapped an opportunity here and it clearly has to do with his struggles to deal with hunter. >> yeah. the hunter thing is just going to stick. everyone understands $50,000 a

month thrown at you basically for nothing because are you the vice president's son. just in general, biden has been sagging. i think he's no longer the front runner in this race. unless he finds some way to excite people. which he hasn't yet and find a rational beyond being the most electable guy on theory on paper. i would expect him to continue to descend. >> rick, you are sort of nodding there. >> i think the opportunity he has been handed is to basically say, hey, i'm the defacto nominee, the president of the united states we are all running against, we want to topple more than anything else has made me the nominee. i should capitalize on that, i should act like i'm the nominee. i think that would help him. fighting back forcefully, look. people don't know how to fight back against trump. but i actually think he has to show that kind of into they're people want to see from him. and that's what he should be doing. >> kay, isn't is that what this democratic primary is about? democrats are trying to find out which one of you have the good

to take this on? >> in talking with iowa democrats, the thing of people not a part of the biden camp mystification them in this campaign, this is a guy that's run now three times. he didn't answer with this huge juger knot. he didn't enter with a campaign staff. in fact, he's still hiring full-time staffers in iowa. they will come on in the next few weeks so that has really mystified people and also they're concerned because as you mentioned, this is going to be kind of a head-to-head matchup in the news for a while. and so how does someone who is trying to break out of that lower tier become a part of the campaign conversation when everyone is talk accounts about joe biden versus donald trump. >> by the way, i want to pivot here a little bit. a month ago, before the whistleblower, this campaign looked like it was sorting itself out. biden-warren showdown with bernie sanders not going away, everybody else good-bye.

bernie sanders has a heart attack. we've got the joe biden situation. this is a more unstable race. the bernie sanders heart attack, rick stengel, you were on bill bradley's campaign saying during the 1999-2000, he didn't have a heart attack. he had a heart arrhythmia issue. it happened on the trail and pretty much did what to the campaign? >> we were above the ft. des moines hotel, chuck. >> i remember that. >> he had an atrial defribrillation is the technical term for it. he had a couple episodes and someone asked him about it. he talked about it for the first time. he hadn't talked about it before. remember, a part of bill's regimen is he was a hall of fame basketball player. 6'5." had this incredible vigor. he hasn't talked about it. the "new york times" did a story and hurt him in iowa. he thinks it killed his chances in new hampshire. >> kay what is this going to do to bernie in iowa? >> 21 of the things i think folks who aren't from iowa don't

realize in 2016, 58% of the people that went to the caucuses were 50-plus. 28% of them were over the age o two things. they know what it's like to be old. those folks tell me they're looking for new blood. then have you other people who know what it's like to be old and they know what it's like to be discriminated against so they use word like ageism when you talk about is bernie sanders too old? >> i feel everybody will feel fonder, everybody will be glad he's back on his feet. there will be more skepticism about making him the nominee. i thought for a while and more so, someone below the top three is going to do something to catch on and pete buttigieg has a pulse in iowa. >> one thing is certain of in talking to the campaign, they won't make an issue of this, maybe he gets a question about it at the next debate. the bottom line is, if are you are elizabeth warren, every moment we are spending talking

about bernie sander's health. talking about joe biden, how he is handling this latest controversy is a moment she's surging. she is not being given the front runner treatment yet. >> she continues to surge by staying under the radar. at some point, she won't be under the radar. >> data download for you. the february, the september 21st iowa poll talked to bernie sanders supporters from '16. elizabeth warren has already locked up 32% of them. only 25% of the people who voted for him last time intend to vote this time. >> well, i think that says a lot right there. i will pause it here. we're very excited about our next announcement here. before we go, we are excited to announce we are kicking off our third annual film festival. trust me, we were trying to try this once. now it's annual. we created this beyond what we can fit. it allows us to look at important policy issues in a

deeper, more extended format this year, we are featuring toxic beauty, which explores the under regulated market for beauty product itself. it's an issue with health implications and one that's received rare bipartisan attention here in washington. >> it's ha ready to imagine that there are rules that limit what chemicals we can spray on food or crops but not the chemicals with espray on ourselves every day. -- we spray on ourselves every day. >> the last part of my job as a formulator was to constantly do reformulations. once a certain dye was thought to be potential, even potentially have toxicitys, it would wait for it to become a regulatory matter. they would be proactive in reformulation. i see bath products and shampoos and 3 in 1s, a lot of bed bath

type of products for kid, which i have two nephews and a niece i love very much. when i see their mother soaking them in this product every night for hours on end, it does concern me, because they're not just taking a quick shower and washing it off. they're soaking in it and playing in it. all women who wear any kind of deodorant or moisturizer is going for parabins in their system for the last 50 years. >> a number of our films are available for streaming for the next month on nbc news.com and on all of the nbc streaming platforms. we hit clinl justice reform, climate change, not just this one. we thought this one was unique and feature length toxic beauty tonight here in walk. that's all we have for today. we'll be back next week, because if it's sunday, it's

presentation of the olympic channel, home of team u.s.a. it has been a new, exciting and enjoyable experience being part of the first ever track and field world championships in the middle east, here in doha. matthew centrowitz is ready to win a world championship. that's coming