trial of donald john trump the first week begins with rancor >> they do not seriously contest any of the allegations against the president, and they lied lie and lie and lie. >> the only one who should be embarrassed, mr. nadler, is you. >> with the president saying he'd like to face off against house democrats. >> sit right in the front row and stare in their corrupt faces. >> you can't trust the president to do what's right for this country. you can trust he will do what's right for donald trump. >> and the beginning of the white house's defense.

>> they're here to perpetrate the most massive interference in an election in american history. >> my guests this morning, the democrat's lead impeachment manager, congressman adam schiff of california and republican senator and impeachment juror mike braun plus, eight days in iowa. >> iowa. >> iowa. >> iowa. >> with new polling out of iowa showing where the democratic race may be going. i'll talk to senator amy klobuchar. joining me for insight and analysis is kristen welker, mark leibovich, amy walter and lanhee chen, a fellow at the hoover institution. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history this is "meet the press" with

chuck todd good sunday morning. even without impeachment, it was not hard last week to find examples how divided as a country we have become there was last saturday's fourth annual women's march in washington inspired by opposition to president trump. then there was monday's pro gun rally that in the former capitol of the confederacy on the martin luther king jr. holiday. there was the annual antiabortion march for life with donald trump making the first appearance for a sitting president. for pure ab surtd at this, there was oklahoma banning travel to california after california did the same to oklahoma all of this with the undercard to the main event, the first full week of president trump's impeachment trial. over the first three days they laid out their case, that president trump abused power and obstructed congress. but democrats made that case needing at least 20 votes from republican senators who seem as

indifferent to their arguments as democrats were passionate in making them. as theevents around the countr last week suggested, democratic republican stalemate on capitol hill was less a cause than a reflection of our national divide that divide may grow even wider as it appears republicans mabrey a quicker end to the impeachment trial than democrats wanted. >> i implore you, give america a fair trial. >> house democrats wrapped up three days of arguments making the case that president trump abused his power by pressuring ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election for his personal gain >> you can't trust this president to do what's right for this country you can trust he will do what's right for donald trump. >> president trump tried to cheat. he got caught, and then he worked hard to cover it up >> he is a dictator.

>> democrats are using the president's own words against him. >> then i have an article, too, where i have the right to do whatever i want as president. >> the attorney for indicted giuliani associate lev parnas turned over cell phone video to the house intelligence committee recorded by his associate igor fruman who is also under indictment it appears to show president trump removing ambassador to ukraine marie yovonovitch at a dinner with donors. >> get rid of her. get her out tomorrow i don't care get her out tomorrow kick her out do it. >> president trump was asked about the recording on friday. >> were you telling parnas to get rid of her you have a state department. >> i wouldn't have been saying that i would have been saying was rudy there or somebody i want ambassadors that are chosen by me. >> on saturday the president's legal team fired back making it clear they believe their strongest argument is not the facts but the calendar.

>> they're asking you to remove president trump from the ballot in an election that's occurred in approximately nine months. >> and echoing president trump by raising doubts about the intelligence community, including the fbi. >> the president had reason to be concerned about the information he was being provided >> what's not yet clear is just how aggressively they plan to target joe biden and his son >> they've gone after me, telling lies about my surviving son, they've gone after my whole family. >> the majority that the senate should call witnesses to testify. it's not clear democrats will get the four republican votes they need. >> i'm afraid that's going to fail on face maybe a couple republican senators will dissent. >> i think the house managers have done a good job of making their arguments. that doesn't mean i will agree with them. >> and some senate republicans are trying to deflect questions about the substance by dismissing it all as old news.

>> house democrats repeat themselves time and time again. >> there's nothing that i've heard so far that i didn't see before. >> i didn't hear anything new. >> and joining me now is the house's lead impeachment manager, adam schiff chairman schiff, welcome. >> thank you. >> let me start with getting your reaction. i know you did some reaction to the president's legal team yesterday. what message do you believe they're trying to send to those jurors in there? do you see their attempt at a defense being mostly about making the case against witnesses? >> i do. i think they're deathly afraid of what witnesses will have to say so their whole strategy has been to deprive the public of a fair trial they don't frame it that way, but that's in essence it they have a very heavy burden with that because the american people understand what a fair trial is a fair trial requires witnesses. fair trial does not consist of

the person that is charged agreeing with the judges to deprive the prosecution from being able to make a case so it's hard to argue we don't want to hear the evidence, particularly when they say we should hear from more direct witnesses who talk to the president but we're not going to allow them to be called. what was so striking to me really about their case was that they basically acknowledged the scheme they don't really contest the president's scheme they don't say, no, he didn't try to get foreign help in the election they don't say that there was no evidence that he was conditioning the aide, they just try to make the case that you don't need a fair trial here you can make this go away. but, look, if they're successful in depriving the country of a fair trial, there is no exx exonerati exoneration. there is no exoneration. americans will recognize that the country did not get what the founders intended because they put the word try in the constitution for a reason. >> they -- the other part of the

president's defense is to call into question the investigators, whether it's you or the intelligence committee jay sekulow said the president has every right to question essentially defending the idea that the president does have suspicions about ukraine's role in 2016 going after the intelligence committee were you surprised that the president's counsel did that on the floor of the senate? >> i was surprised i think it was a huge mistake. basically what he did, this was really following the presentation we made the day before, about the threat the president poisses to the country because he refuses to believe people like rudy giuliani, he chooses to believe russian propaganda and that makes him dangerous to our country what do they do, they go and double down on that same crazy conspiracy theory that ukraine hacked the dnc server. it's astonishing and, you know,

on the first day of the president's defense to say the president should disbelieve his own intelligence agencies, he has every right to believe vladimir putin, i wouldn't want to be making that argument. >> you were a star including an exchange you and i had about the russian collusion issue as well as your opening statement on the phone call any regrets about either of those two moments yourself >> no. you know, i am glad you asked the question about collusion because, again, they may be perpetuating the president's talking points but they've got it exactly wrong bob mueller did not find that there was no collusion, in fact, in the first couple pages of the report he said we don't address that issue we could not confirm criminal conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. what he did find is the russians offered the president dirt on his opponent and they said they

would love to have it. literally put it in writing. but the more important point, chuck, and the relevance of the mueller report to all of this, because we're not trying the mueller report, is that this isn't the first time that they invited foreign interference that is the background of the current effort to get a foreign nation to help them cheat in an election you can't say it's an accident when you repeatedly are seeking foreign help and in this case we proved overwhelmingly that they were leveraging hundreds of millions of dollars that ukraine needed in military aid and a deeply sought after oval office meeting to coerce ukraine into helping him cheat. >> the president's defense team brought up the fisa issue. there was a report that the justice department has said that those renewal applications, two of them to survey carter page lacked probable cause. they tried to freeze any information that was around it what's your reaction to the justice department's new

decision >> well, look, for the purposes of the impeachment trial, it's a pretty remarkable argument, which is because there were flaws and serious flaws in a fisa application involving a single person, carter page, therefore, the president has every right to disbelieve the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence agencies that russia interfered in our last election, they'll likely interfere in our next election and therefore the president is right to investigate his political rival joe biden. i don't know how one thing follows from the other, but it shows, i think, the weakness of their argument that there was some justification for the president using the power of his office to investigate his opponent and i just don't think you can make that case persuasively to the american people. >> where are you on witness reciprocity? >> look, i think the president has the right to call relevant witnesses just as we do in his defense. he doesn't have the right to call irrelevant witnesses or witnesses who aren't fact witnesses. >> well, if the senate says he

does, why not? that's the way the rules work. i understand where you come from, but if the senate says he can, then he can. >> the senate can make whatever decision the senate can make and the american people can judge that decision, but if we're talking about a fair trial, if the senators are going to give content to their oath to be impartial administrators of justice, they can't say, well, we're going to allow the president to trade witnesses that don't shed any light on the facts but would allow him to once again try to smear his opponent, we're going to make that the pound of flesh, we're going to make that the cost of calling relevant witnesses. >> if they're irrelevant, what are you afraid of? won't that be exposed. >> it's not a question of what i'm afraid of. i'm not afraid of anything the question is should the trial be used to smear an opponent be? is it to get to the truth? hunter biden can't tell us anything about the withholding of the military funding. hunter biden can't tell us why

the president wouldn't let the president into the oval office hunter biden can't tell us anything it's a false choice that they say if the house gets to call witnesses, yes, we both get to call witnesses, relevant ones. one other point on this, chuck, which is important we have a very capable justice sitting right behind me who can make decisions about the material at of witnesses we trust the supreme court justice to make those decisions. one final thing if you will. >> okay. >> the president's team is pushing out the argument we don't have timeto call witnesses. we'd really love to have these people testify, we don't have time it would be too inconvenient that's a dodge we have a justice who can make decisions if there's any legitimate claim of privilege. it can go to the justice -- >> their argument is that it interferes in the presidential election it starts to creep too close to it basically, at what point should

the voters have this decision. >> it's a broader argument than that their argument is you cannot impeach a president in his first term because it will either overturn the will of the voters or prevent him from being on the ballot the next time the remedy of impeachment, if it's to be a meaningful remedy, means that you can remove a president from office. if a president commits serious misconduct in his first term, he doesn't get a pass the danger to the country is particularly acute when the conduct involves threatening the integrity of the next election because that's normally the remedy if he's allowed to cheat, it's not a proper remedy. >> what do you make of the criticism that some republican senators who might want to vote for witnesses didn't like your head on a pike, murkowski, collins, ernst, all three who might be open to witnesses thought you got too personal. >> i don't think it was personal to refer to the cbs story. what may be personal though, and i think i have to be very candid

about this, is i made the argument that it's going to require moral courage to stand up to this president and this is a wrathful and vindictive president. i don't think there's any doubt about it if you think there is, look at the president's tweets saying i should pay a price. >> do you take that as a threat? >> i think it's intended to be but, look, it is going to be very difficult for some of these senators to stand up to this president. it really is there's just no question about it and i want to acknowledge that i don't want to acknowledge it in a way that is offensive to them, but i do want to speak candidly about it. and if this weren't an issue, there wouldn't be an issue about calling witnesses. if we can't even get the senators to agree to call witnesses in a trial, it shows you just how difficult that moral courage is >> try to have that conversation

in a second. chairman adam schiff, thank you for coming on. >> thank you. >> we'll be watching next week. senate republicans do seem increasingly unlikely to call witnesses. mike braun of indiana suggested democrats do want to hear from witnesses, it would come at a price. >> if you want itnesses, i can't imagine where anybody would agree unless there was reciprocity. you get a witness, we get a witness. so that means you're talking about bolton, mulvaney, you're talking about hunter biden, maybe joe biden, maybe the whistle-blower, and i think it's disingenuous for them to talk about witnesses like it's in a vacuum. >> and i'm joined now by that senator you just heard from. he's republican mike braun of indiana. you're technically a freshman senator. >> i am. don't feel like it. >> welcome to the nfl as they say. welcome to "meet the press." let me get on this witness question i want to get at it by you first

hearing something, peggy noonan said to me on friday, take a listen >> get them in there show history you did your best avoid the stigma of, yeah, they won, but they didn't let the extra people talk. >> yeah. >> avoid the stigma. respect history. make the case big, end of story. >> she's basically saying, you've got the votes be magnanimous if you want to essentially heal the country. you want to prove you went above and beyond what do you say to her >> the first place i saw that happen early was when several of us decided that why argue about what to submit into the record everything happened in the house. i was one of them. and then when it was a discussion of how much time did we need to spend, i now know that we did need three days on each side if you're going to take especially most of that 24 hours. but when it comes to this, i think it goes back to where i'm

from, and it was ironic, i'll make this quick, i met adam just in the greenroom >> very washington moment we had. >> very washington moment. >> i think born in massachusetts, lives in california, represents the hollywood district i was born in rural southern indiana, moved to boston for two years to go to school and come back i asked him when we're done with this can we get together on health care where i've led the way. he said yes. that's a moment where i think we can take optimism out of something that looks so divided. but when it comes to witnesses and peggy's point, chuck schumer and speaker pelosi, i think speaker pelosi was more apprehensive about this whole thing playing out to get where it was now they knew the rules. they knew mitch mcconnell was on the other side controlling it. i paid attention to each version of the house inquiry behind closed doors, public version, four constitutional experts. was really looking for what i found that was new

it was repackaging i think when it comes to witnesses, each senator will have to ask with the political issues and the fairness factor do we need them? >> it's interesting this new issue. if you didn't hear anything new, don't you want to hear from witnesses like john bolton who you have yet to hear from? to me this is a contradiction that this talking point hasn't been squared very well, fair >> i think if you want to take that point of view, yes. for many of us, depending on where you're from, this also is not only your own conscience you have to measure here, it is what your constituents talk about. >> i was just going to ask you that do you believe you're casting your vote for the people that elected you or are you casting your vote based on your interpretation of the oath you took >> and it is a tricky combination of both because i came here clearly not to be embroiled in this. brought some things from main

street that i thought would make sense and on all of those issues, whether it's this or what i really came here to do, it'll always be based on principle. here the case so far, and i'll give them credit, they put together a broad, comprehensive case, but it was circumstantial in nature. then you say, well, you're splitting hairs, but this is a political process. begs the question of all of us as jurors. none of us would be there in a trial. >> the case for witnesses that adam schiff made that i thought was an intriguing one was don't you want to get to the bottom of it now why wait until the book comes out? why wait until more recordings from lev parnas show up and suddenly -- you know, why do that why risk that? don't you want to know it now and then decide? >> so 20 years ago, which is our only guideline, we were starting to get politically charged then, it was probably a mistake and it was clearly proven out when that

occurred, so here we're now in a more polarized time and place and i think when it comes to seeing all of this information, that is going to be so intertwined with your own political context and that's what each senator is wrestling with i talked to lisa i talked to susan at the tail end be and they are wrestling with that. it's a pigger deal in some places in my area, the fact that they were talking about impeachment around inauguration, it was a partisan, you know, vote coming over and then it does overturn an election and it prevents another one nine months away that's what -- >> when it comes to though the issue itself, which is this idea that the president used government resources -- >> yeah. >> -- to benefit himself personally, it's clear he made this attempt you can decide whether you've said the call wasn't perfect the question is if you believe impeachment is too strong a penalty, what's the right

penalty? >> so that topic from reporters kept coming up about censure, and all i can say on this issue, this ought to be instructive to anyone here that if you're pushing the envelope or doing things that may not feel right, let alone be right, you better be careful because we're in that atmosphere. >> this president as you know, he's going to take acquittal and think, i can keep doing this. >> no, i don't think that -- hopefully it will be instructive to where -- >> when you say hopefully, what's the evidence in his lifetime that he takes any sort of whatever it is, a miss demeanor ticket or whatever and then he accepts that and goes, i'll change my behavior? >> i think he'll put two and two together in this case he was taken to the carpet and it's because -- >> you think he has regret with what he did? >> i think he'll be instructed by what has occurred here and certainly any individual would want to avoid whatever might need to be modified to go through this again because the

threat has already been out there that we may find something else to impeach on which i think is a mistake because i think we need to get back to what most americans are interested in, the agenda. >> you got -- you got hit on twitter because there's a photo of you and rudy giuliani and lev parnas. >> yeah. >> we'll put it up because i want to ask you this question about rudy giuliani. are you at all now questioning the president's judgment based on how much he relies on rudy giuliani i mean, look at -- you took a photo with him you were taking -- you were trusting him that he wasn't going to put somebody who was going to eventually get indicted with you first of all, do you trust rudy giuliani anymore >> first of all, i'd say you have to trust who his cohorts are, igor and lev. >> what about rudy's judgment? >> i had not met rudy other than his 15 minute cameo performance and -- >> does it call into question the president's judgment in your

mind he surrounds himself with these folks. >> remember i said instructive i think you need to take all of that into consideration because when you get through this, you want to get back on those issues that i came here for the climate discussion we are foot draggers on it, we are on health care if you want to be successful as your vindication with an agenda, let's get focused on that. >> senator mike braun, republican from indiana, i'm going to have to leave it there. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspectives. >> you're welcome. >> when we come back, there's a campaign going on. we have brand-new polls and i'll talk to a democratic candidate and senator. amy klobuchar who can campaign in iowa, at least for a day. we offer commission-free online u.s. stock and etf trades. and, when you open a new fidelity brokerage account, your cash is automatically invested at a great rate -- that's 20 times more than schwab's. plus, fidelity's leading price improvement on trades saved investors hundreds of millions of dollars last year. that's why fidelity continues to lead the industry in value

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i don't see it. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ the one thing you learn pretty quickly, is that there's a lot to learn. grow with google is here to help you with turning ideas into action. putting your business on the map, connecting with customers, and getting the skills to use new tools. so, in case you're looking, we've put all the ways we can help in one place. free training, tools, and small business resources are now available at google.com/grow welcome back. if you needed proof that bernie sanders is surging, look no further than two new polls we have for you this morning. it shows sanders taking the lead ahead of buttigieg, biden and

warren. amy klobuchar is at 8%. in new hampshire our brand new nbc news/marist poll has the exact same order with sanders again pulling into the lead. amy klobuchar got good news, double digits there and the endorsement of the new hampshire union leader, that state's largest newspaper. and senator klobuchar joins me now from waterloo, iowa. senator klobuchar, welcome back to "meet the press." >> hey, chuck, it's great to be back. >> well, you get to be in iowa for a day, but you spent yesterday, half of it in iowa and half of it listening to want president's legal team give their first day of defense. what did you make of the tact they're taking here, which is essentially accepting some of the facts, questioning the interpretation. do you think they're making a case against witnesses? >> i think the house manager made the case, chuck. i am simply -- i just keep looking over at my colleagues

and thinking you want to get to the truth. you know, you got elected to this job not to serve at the pleasure of the president, but to represent the people. and i don't know how they can cut out facts and evidence and then as i heard my colleague just say on your show, and then he says, well, it's circumstantial. well, come on. let's get to the founding fathers musical "hamilton" and talk about the people who were in the room where it happened. that would be bolton, that would be mulvaney. they have the facts, they were there. no matter how they vote on impeachment in the end, americans want a fair trial. the polls show overwhelmingly people want to hear from the witnesses, so that's what i keep thinking when i hear the back and forth. let's just get this done and hear the witnesses. that is not what they're doing. they are afraid to hear from those witnesses. >> dick durbin, number two in leadership is sounding a pretty pessimistic note that you're not going to have the votes for witnesses. you have said that you have been

running essentially during the breaks, talking to republican colleagues. you're usually involved in whatever bipartisan gangs -- >> yes. >> -- used to exist. do you share his pessimism? >> i still wait until that vote happens. people surprise you. and i think about these moments of courage, which i keep discussing with my republican colleagues. you know, john mccain with that arm of his that was -- because of torture he could hardly move it and lift it, when he voted no against repealing the affordable care act. i think about lisa murkowski along with heidi heitkamp and claire mccaskill when they didn't have the stomach to vote for judge kavanaugh because of what went on in the hearing and in the past. those are moments that people voted against their immediate political interests but did things for the country. that's what we're asking them to do. not even actually for their vote on impeachment right now, no. the vote just to allow witnesses

to come forward because zero witnesses plus zero evidence equals zero justice. >> you're campaigning to win the democratic nomination. you believe one of the things that makes you a better candidate is that you can beat donald trump, which implies you expect to be facing donald trump. so let me ask it -- >> yes. >> -- this way. when do we get to the point where it should be the voters instead of the senators that make this decision in your mind? >> look, right now we're doing two things at once. i'm a mom, i can do that. we've got the impeachment proceeding going on with those hundred jurors who are there representing the public. as i say when i'm out here in iowa, you know what, you are the jurors. you are ultimately the jurors in the primary and in the election. and to me what you want for a candidate, you want someone that recognizes that, that this is a decency check in addition to an economic check on this president. if we want to win, we have to bring people with us that don't agree with everything that's said on that debate stage.

i don't agree with everything that's said on the debate stage but i do know i bring the receipts of bringing in people in the suburbs, in the rural areas in a pbig way. i think that's why you see me surging, going up slowly but surely in these states, getting "the new york times" endorsement, the quad city times, this all matters, chuck. >> let me ask you this. it's clear this is a very divided party right now, but you're divided for different reasons, there's some ideological divides, there's divides in hand wringing over who's the best candidate to take on trump, what should the vote be. let me ask this, how quickly do you think that democrats need to unite around the front-runner when there is a front-runner? meaning -- and you'll know it when you see it. how quickly do you think that needs to happen? >> quickly. and i envision that happening not right away. >> let me ask you this. >> let me just say, when it is

time, we must unify because what unites us is so much bigger than what divides us. our people, that's what they want to do. i think they are ready to march forward together. but we must have candidates that are willing to do that and lead, and i think we have that. >> you're ready to support whether it's bernie sanders or joe biden or elizabeth warren? obviously you would support yourself. >> yes. obviously. >> are you ready to support any of those folks? >> i'm ready to support the winner, but i make a strong case here if you look at how we won in louisiana and kentucky and wisconsin where we beat scott walker or in michigan, this is about candidates that reflected their states. i think senator sanders' idea of kicking 149 million americans off their current health insurance in four years is wrong. that's why i don't think he should be leading the ticket. i think i could be leading the ticket because my ideas are much more in sync with bold ways of

getting things done, taking on the pharmaceutical companies, nonprofit public option, having annedcation plan that actually matches our economy, and the experience the getting things done. i'm the only one in the senate running left on that stage that has passed over 100 bills as the lead democrat. that matters to people right now. >> are you okay with the fact that if you're successful with witnesses you cannot be in iowa on caucus night? >> that will be -- that will be what happens. i have always believed that the obstacles on the path are not obstacles, they are the path. if that happens, i think the people of this state and all the four early states, if it goes on that long, they get that we have a constitutional job to do and that is what i will be doing. >> senator amy klobuchar, democrat from minnesota, be safe on the campaign trail as you guys try to run back and forth. >> thanks, chuck. it was great to be on. when we come back, could the impeachme trial conclude b ♪ things you can do with schwab:

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welker and mark leibovich. kristen welker, this is what republican senators that many of us have identified as potential voters for witnesses and more evidence responded to some issues with the house impeachment manager, joni ernst, it's hard to keep an open mind when there's so much baloney being thrown at you. lisa murkowski, schiff was moving right along then he got a couple of places and that was unnecessary. maybe we'll all overread these things, but it is interesting that here is some folks going out of their way to indicate finding ways to not be for witnesses or not be happy about the house impeachment manager. >> that's right. they were almost given a way out, chuck. what was notable talking to democrats and republicans, they said we just don't have four votes right now. romney might be a yes, collins might be a yes but murkowski

indicating she's not going to be a yes, so where do you find those other votes? they're looking potentially at lamar alexander. one democrat said to me last night we're looking for our john mccain. i thought that was interesting that you heard senator klobuchar invoke his name as well. they said we're going to wrap ourselves in the american flag until this vote to try to hammer home that point that chairman schiff is making that is essentially we need to have all of the facts here before we have a fair trial. >> and this to me is the fascinating part of all of it. chairman schiff makes the case you've got to be politically courageous, take on your president, take on your base. i think if we learned anything in these last few years, if you are a senator in a swing state, it's not that you have to worry that your base is going to abandon you, it's voters that say they're swing voters, voters that want principle over politics, at the end of the day they vote their politics. so at the end of the day if susan collins comes out and said i did the right thing and the principled thing and democrats

in maine say that's so great, susan collins. you say to that democrat are you going to vote for susan collins? of course not. i hate donald trump and i'm going to vote for the democratic. so the incentive structure, there's no reward to be a modera moderate. >> the two arguments advanced by mitch mcconnell and by the trump white house, i think there is some traction there. they don't want to be sitting there forever and i think they think calling witnesses will result in a lot of litigation and will take a lot of time. i think that's an argument that has penetrated. >> is the senate busy? the only issue with that. this is a senate that basically just confirms judges. so it's not like they have a lot to do. >> they're not busy for a few weeks but they are in the next few months. so the argument that it could take a few months. the other piece that you're starting to hear more and more people say, the house should

have done its job. that argument also is starting to sink in as well. >> i would say this, though, to amy's point. every person she mentioned as an example of courage in the senate, claire mccaskill, heidi heitkamp, john mccain, none of them are there anymore. and the first two were voted out of office just about a year and a half ago. so, again, like to amy's point, the voters are sort of who decides where or how these -- a lot of the calculus is decided. >> so what's acquittal going to look like? it was really -- mike braun wants to have people believe or maybe he wants to believe that somehow the president is going to have learned something here. that feels like, okay, fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three, at what point do you start counting? >> there are no teachable moments in this process. no one is learning anything. the president is not learning anything. democrats are not learning anything. the notion that somehow we can arise from this and there can be some opportunity, so, no, i don't think -- there's no

alternative here. what's going to happen is that the president is going to get acquitted. that's going to be it. so the notion that somehow we're going to have this process and everyone is going to come out of it somehow having learned some lesson, i don't buy that necessarily. but, you know, yeah. >> what's he going to do with acquittal. >> i thought it was so notable -- >> he's at the super bowl ad. i'm sure he's going to -- god only knows what he's going to say in that if he gets acquitted. >> the president and his campaign are already gearing up. they're already blanketing the airways, trying to energize his base. he's going to be in cape may on tuesday, in iowa on thursday. he is going to use this moment to essentially try to energize his base and the campaign is gearing up to do that. a full-court press, i am told. >> is there risk for these republican senators that are in tough races if and when -- i say if, likely more information comes out and stuff looks -- and this looks worse and worse? >> and they're going to have to answer the question over and

over again. >> why didn't you get a witness on bolton? bolton said this in his book. >> going back to my earlier argument, if you're one of those swing state senators, no matter what, you're in a terrible position on this. the other thing to note, though, is that the president's overall approval rating during this moment, we've had a couple of polls, but abc -- >> doesn't move. >> right. he moves a little bit but it's basically -- >> the post-poll always does this. >> it's in the higher range. he's in the 40s, not in the 30s. so you can argue, i think, that this hasn't really moved the needle all that much. but it has put the focus on the things, the issue of the economy, where the president is the strongest. >> i also do think that there's greater risk in acquittal than republicans might be admitting. literally the first thing chairman schiff just said over there, which is they're deathly afraid of what witnesses will say. as chuck just said, witnesses will say something. they will come out. john bolton's book will come out, probably something before, lev parnas.

every time that happens -- >> lev parnas may have another video out by the time we leave the show. >> there could be pictures of all of us. >> all of us, i know. >> so there is -- the drip, drip, drip doesn't end just when they vote for acquittal. >> maureen dowd had a fascinating little nugget in her column today. i want to put it up here. one democratic senate staffer mourned the apathy, our phones aren't ringing. nobody cares. it's the saddest thing ever. the fact that you don't have even democrats storming the capital protesting, it's not there. >> i was in iowa, no one talked about this. it's not that voters don't care about it or democrats don't think it's a big deal. i think what it is -- they get the joke. they know what the vote is going to look like. so what they are looking for now -- >> somebody said that to me, i'm not watching because i already know the outcome. >> that's where it puts the issue of who's going to face the president into starker contrast. >> let's pause that and have that conversation about who's going to face this president.

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welcome back. data download time. we're now in the final stretch to the first presidential contest of the election year with only eight days to the iowa caucuses. iowa will tell us more than just who won this state. it could tell us a lot about where the democratic party is headed in 2020 overall. first on the issue of enthusiasm. turnout in 2016 for the caucuses when hillary clinton narrowly beat bernie sanders was way down from the record-setting turnout that barack obama led eight years earlier. it ended up foreshadowing a tepid enthusiasm for hillary clinton throughout the primary season and into the general in 2016, particularly in the midwest. but it's not just about turnout. in 2016 there were slightly more older voters than in 2008. perhaps predicting the challenge clinton had in turning out young people that november, which we saw. but the most notable difference

between 2008 and 2016, ideology. look at the change. the percentage of liberal voters went up from 54% in the obama win to 68% in the narrow clinton win. what did that mean? it was a big advantage for bernie sanders when he almost won and it was a low turnout cycle. the relationship between turnout and ideology will be one of the biggest things we're tracking next week. turnout is high because liberals are coming out. that would suggest the progressive wing is growing and it isn't just the most reliable wing of the party. but if it's more like 2008, massive but moderate, that could signal the direction of the party to come in november, meaning there's broader enthusiasm for a democrat in general. when we come back, endi gam and this estion. and this estion. as a small business owner, the one thing you learn pretty quickly, is that there's a lot to learn. grow with google is here to help you with turning ideas into action. putting your business on the map, connecting with customers, and getting the skills to use new tools.

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we save the world and do it together. back now with end game. it is the week of the iowa caucuses and it's like -- i know, it's hard when we're in the middle of covering that other story to feel that energy. you don't see it. let me put those polls back quickly just to reset things here in iowa and new hampshire. bernie sanders ahead in both. joe biden still ahead in most of the national polls with sanders. amy walter, we were discussing a

little bit, it is interesting to see national polls usually lag behind where iowa and new hampshire is. so is what we're seeing there with bernie now a consistent -- narrowly ahead but consistent with some combination of buttigieg, biden and then warren following behind, is that where this is headed? or do we just -- we don't know what's going to happen this last week? >> it is easier to just go let's wait, right? but let's say this, what seems really clear what started off as the two pillars of the democratic message, go big and bold or be safe, risk averse, continue to drive the conversation in this election. no one has been able to completely pull biden and bernie out of those two polls. no one has been able to overtake them in that argument. i would argue the bigger challenge for joe biden right now is pete buttigieg. warren is slipping among liberal voters --

>> that's good news no safor sa. >> good news for sanders. >> but an editorial may have weirdly been helpful to bide sglen rigbideen. >> but pete buttigieg is a real threat to joe biden. in these new hampshire polls, that marist/nbc did and other ones in iowa, he's moving into those moderates and older voters that biden used to own. >> i also think, chuck, the impeachment might actually be benefiting sanders because here he is surging and these poll numbers may be frozen in time. it makes it tougher for buttigieg and biden to aggressively attack him when he is in washington doing his constitutional duty and just -- he was there last night certainly, but he's going to be back on the senate floor. >> on paper this should be a boon for joe biden. joe biden has a new ad up and he's basically playing the experience card. here it is. >> we need someone that can beat

trump and immediately start turning things around. and for me, that's joe biden. he's been through the fire. he can be that commander in chief that we need. >> playing the experience card, it's not a new tactic, but i want to show you the last few times. when i see the experience ad being played, that's not always a good sign. let me show you other examples of people playing the experience card. >> america deserves a real one, not ads from george w. bush. al gore is ready. >> one man knows what's wrong and the courage to stop it. >> the world a president has to grapple with. sometimes you can't even imagine. that's the job, and she's prepared for it like no other. >> head versus heart arguments, in primaries, heart usually trumps heads. >> correct. first of all, they all won the nomination. al gore won the nomination, hillary clinton won the nomination. >> and john mccain won his in some ways for the same reason to

put him up against obama. >> right. i do think that donald trump is a bit of a game-changer here. and i think that he gives a lot of -- he gives a lot more weight to the experience and, frankly, the safer choice argument. >> it's the best joe biden has. i mean honestly, i think if there was something else he could sell, he would sell it. what he has to sell is experience. what he has to sell is electability. now, the challenge is if either of those gets challenged, and arguably both of them have been challenged during the course of this primary competition, then i think he runs into some trouble. but this is the argument, this is the essence of the biden argument all along. >> amy walter, here's something i can't figure out. why can't joe biden monetize this impeachment for his campaign in some way? i say it this way and some on the right are going to take that word monetize and go crazy with it. but the point is he's the reason that they're in impeachment. donald trump apparently is very afraid of joe biden. yet he's not translating that to gushers of money. >> right.

some of it is he doesn't want to talk about it for personal reasons, getting into the discussion about hunter biden and his son beau. >> but you worry about the campaign infrastructure -- >> that they are not using -- right. he will say this on the trail. they're coming after me because they know that i'm the strongest candidate there, right? that's it. but -- >> and? >> and, and. but it also reminds -- >> but look at what others have done when they have been targeted by trump. >> that's true, but for democratic voters who are still living in 2016 ptsd, what they hear is oh, no, this is hillary all over again. >> it's not just democrats too, it's a lot of independents and republicans. but also biden has never been a great fund-raiser. he doesn't have a lot of infrastructure for that and never has. >> coming from a very small state. >> but they never put a lot of effort into it either. he is, though, i think in this case -- i mean he gained a bit over the last couple of months.

it certainly hasn't hurt him in the polls. but you sort of wonder. >> it goes to the head versus heart argument. he's saying use your head. his campaign sending out a memo i am the most electable candidate. i think electability will be his closing argument in the final week before iowa. >> can booiiden survive not finishing first or second in iowa and new hampshire? >> is it buttigieg who comes in second, he now becomes the el t electable or moderate alternative. >> what a show! you guys were terrific. thank you. thank you for watching, everybody. we'll be back next week from iowa. i will see you tomorrow during the next day of the trial. and we'll see you next sunday, because if it is sunday, it's "meet the press." america isn't just sick of donald trump,

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