we keep companies read (second man) virtualize their operations. (woman) and build ai customer experiences. (second woman) we also keep them ready for the next big opportunity. like 5g. almost all of the fortune 500 partner with us. (woman) when it comes to digital transformation... trial of donald john trump verizon keeps business ready. the first week begins with rancor >> they do not seriously contest any of the allegations against the president, and they lied lie and lie and lie. >> the only one who should be embarrassed, mr. nadler, is you. >> with the president saying he'd like to face off against house democrats. >> sit right in the front row and stare in their corrupt faces. >> you can't trust the president to do what's right for this welcome back. country. data download time. you can trust he will do what's we're now in the final stretch right for donald trump. to the first presidential contest of the electionarays toa >> and the beginning of the white house's defense. caucuses. iowa will tell us more than just >> they're here to perpetrate who won this state. the most massive interference in it could tell us a lot about where the democratic party is

headed in 2020 overall. an election in american history. first on the issue of enthusiasm. >> my guests this morning, the turnout in 2016 for the caucuses when hillary clinton narrowly democrat's lead impeachment manager, congressman adam schiff beat bernie sanders was way down from the record-setting turnout of california and republican that barack obama led eight senator and impeachment juror years earlier. it ended up foreshadowing a mike braun tepid enthusiasm for hillary plus, eight days in iowa. clinton throughout the primary season and into the general in >> iowa. >> iowa. >> iowa. 2016, particularly in the >> with new polling out of iowa midwest. but it's not just about turnout. showing where the democratic in 2016 there were slightly more race may be going. older voters than in 2008. i'll talk to senator amy perhaps predicting the challenge clinton had in turning out young klobuchar. joining me for insight and people that november, which we analysis is kristen welker, mark saw. but the most notable difference between 2008 and 2016, ideology. leibovich, amy walter and lanhee look at the change. the percentage of liberal voters went up from 54% in the obama chen, a fellow at the hoover win to 68% in the narrow clinton institution. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." win. what did that mean? >> from nbc news in washington, it was a big advantage for bernie sanders when he almost the longest running show in won and it was a low turnout television history cycle. this is "meet the press" with the relationship between turnout chuck todd and ideology will be one of the biggest things we're tracking good sunday morning. next week. even without impeachment, it was turnout is high because liberals

not hard last week to find are coming out. that would suggest the progressive wing is growing and examples how divided as a it isn't just the most reliable country we have become wing of the party. there was last saturday's fourth but if it's more like 2008, annual women's march io preside. massive but moderate, that could signal the direction of the party to come in november, then there was monday's pro gun meaning there's broader enthusiasm for a democrat in rally that in the former capitol general. of the confederacy on the martin general. when we come back, endi as a small business owner, luther king jr. holiday. there was the annual the one thing you learn pretty quickly, is that there's a lot to learn. antiabortion march for life with donald trump making the first grow with google is here to help you appearance for a sitting with turning ideas into action. president. for pure ab surtd at this, there putting your business on the map, connecting with customers, and getting was oklahoma banning travel to the skills to use new tools. california after california did so, in case you're looking, the same to oklahoma all of this with the undercard we've put all the ways we can help in one place. to the main event, the first full week of president trump's free training, tools, and small business resources impeachment trial. over the first three days they are now available at google.com/grow laid out their case, that president trump abused power and obstructed congress. but democrats made that case needing at least 20 votes from republican senators who seem as indifferent to their arguments as democrats were passionate in making them. as theevents around the countr

last week suggested, democratic republican stalemate on capitol hill was less a cause than a reflection of our national divide that divide may grow even wider as it appears republicans mabrey a quicker end to the impeachment trial than democrats wanted. >> i implore you, give america a fair trial. >> house democrats wrapped up i need all the breaks as athat i can get.or, three days of arguments making at liberty butchemel... the case that president trump cut. abused his power by pressuring liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election for his personal gain so you only pay for what you need. >> you can't trust this president to do what's right for cut. liberty m... this country am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water? you can trust he will do what's liberty biberty... cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance right for donald trump. so you only pay for what you need. >> president trump tried to only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ cheat. he got caught, and then he dana-farber cancer institute discovered the pd-l1 pathway. worked hard to cover it up >> he is a dictator. pd-l1. >> democrats are using the they changed how the world fights cancer. president's own words against blocking the pd-l1 protein, him. >> then i have an article, too, lets the immune system attack,

where i have the right to do attack, attack cancer. whatever i want as president. pd-l1 transformed, >> the attorney for indicted revolutionized, giulianiigor immunotherapy. frumanindictment it appears to show president pd-l1 saved my trump removing ambassador to saved my life.therapy. what we do here at dana-faber, changes lives ukraine marie yovonovitch at a dinner with donors. >> get rid of her. get her out tomorrow i don't care get her out tomorrow kick her out do it. >> president trump was asked about the recording on friday. >> were you telling parnas to get rid of her you have a state department. >> i wouldn't have been saying that i would have been saying was rudy there or somebody i want ambassadors that are chosen by me. >> on saturday the president's legal team fired back making it clear they believe their strongest argument is not the facts but the calendar. >> they're asking you to remove president trump from the ballot in an election in approximately nine months. >> and echoing president trump by raising doubts about the intelligence community, including the fbi. >> the president had reason to

be concerned about the information he was being provided >> what's not yet clear is just how aggressively they plan to target joe biden and his son >> they've gone after me, telling lies about my surviving son, they've gone after my whole family. >> the majority that the senate should call witnesses to testify. it's not clear democrats will get the four republican votes they need. >> i'm afraid that's going to fail on face maybe a couple republican senators will dissent. >> i think the house managers have done a good job of making their arguments. that doesn't mean i will agree with them. >> and some senate republicans are trying to deflect questions about tht all as old news. >> house democrats repeat themselves time and time again. >> there's nothing that i've heard so far that i didn't see before. >> i didn't hear anything new. >> and joining me now is the house's lead impeachment manager, adam schiff chairman schiff, welcome.

>> thank you. >> let me start with getting your reaction. i know you did some reaction to the president's legal team what message do you believe they're trying to send to those jurors in there? do you see their attempt at a defense being mostly about making the case against witnesses? >> i do. i think they're deathly afraid of what witnesses will have to say so their whole strategy has been to deprive the public of a fair trial they don't frame it that way, but that's in essence it they have a very heavy burden back now with end game. with that because the american people understand what a fair it is the week of the iowa trial is a fair trial requires witnesses. caucuses and it's like -- i know, it's hard when we're in the middle of covering that fair trial d other story to feel that energy. agreeing with the judges to you don't see it. let me put those polls back deprive the prosecution from quickly just to reset things being able to make a case so it's hard to argue we don't want here in iowa and new hampshire. bernie sanders ahead in both. to hear the evidence, particularly when they say we joe biden still ahead in most of the national polls with sanders. should hear from more direct amy walter, we were discussing a witnesses who talk to the little bit, it is interesting to president but we're not going to

allow them to be called. see national polls usually lag what was so striking to me really about their case was that behind where iowa and new they basically acknowledged the hampshire is. so is what we're seeing there scheme they don't really contest the with bernie now a consistent -- president's scheme they don't say, no, he didn't narrowly ahead but consistent with some combination of try to get foreign help in the buttigieg, biden and then warren election they don't say that there was no evidence that he was conditioning the aide, they just following behind, is that where this is headed? try to make the case that you or do we just -- we don't know don't need a fair trial here what's going to happen this last you can make this go away. week? >> it is easier to just go let's but, look, if they're successful wait, right? but let's say this, what seems in depriving the country of a fair trial, there is no exx really clear what started off as exonerati exoneration. there is no exoneration. americans will recognize that the two pillars of the the country did not get what the democratic message, go big and founders intended because they put the word try in the bold or be safe, risk averse, constitution for a reason. continue to drive the conversation in this election. >> they -- the other part of the no one has been able to inatorent's defense is to call completely pull biden and bernie whether it's you or the out of those two polls. no one has been able to overtake intelligence committee jay sekulow said the president them in that argument. has every right to question i would argue the bigger challenge for joe biden right now is pete buttigieg. essentially defending the idea warren is slipping among liberal that the president does have voters -- >> that's good news no safor sa.

suspicions about ukraine's role in 2016 going after the >> good news for sanders. intelligence committee were you surprised that the >> but an editorial may have president's counsel did that on weirdly been helpful to bide the floor of the senate? >> i was surprised sglen rigbideen. i think it was a huge mistake. >> but pete buttigieg is a real threat to joe biden. basically what he did, this was in these new hampshire polls, really following the presentation we made the day that marist/nbc did and other before, about the threat the ones in iowa, he's moving into president poisses to the country those moderates and older voters because he refuses to believe that biden used to own. >> i also think, chuck, the people like rudy giuliani, he impeachment might actually be benefiting sanders because here chooses to believe russian propaganda and that makes him he is surging and these poll dangerous to our country numbers may be frozen in time. what do they do, they go and it makes it forttigieg and bide double down on that same crazy aggressively attack him when he conspiracy theory that ukraine is in washington doing his hacked the dnc server. constitutional duty and just -- he was there last night it's astonishing and, you know, certainly, but he's going to be on the first day of the back on the senate floor. president's defense to say the >> on paper this should be a president should disbelieve his own intelligence agencies, he boon for joe biden. has every right to believe joe biden has a new ad up and he's basically playing the vladimir putin, i wouldn't want experience card. here it is. >> we need someone that can beat to be making that argument. trump and immediately start

>> you were a star including an turning things around. exchange you and i had about the and for me, that's joe biden. russian collusion issue as well he's been through the fire. he can be that commander in as your opening statement on the chief that we need. phone call >> playing the experience card, any regrets about either of it's not a new tactic, but i those two moments yourself want to show you the last few >> no. you know, i am glad you asked times. when i see the experience ad being played, that's not always the question about collusion a good sign. let me show you other examples because, again, they may be of people playing the experience perpetuating the president's talking points but they've got card. >> america deserves a real one, it exactly wrong bob mueller did not find that there was no collusion, in fact, not ads from george w. bush. in the first couple page al gore is ready. >> one man knows what's wrong and the courage to stop it. >> the world a president has to we could not confirm criminal conspiracy beyond a reasonable grapple with. doubt. what he did find i sometimes you can't even would love to have it. imagine. that's the job, and she's prepared for it like no other. k, ate the relevance of the >> head versus heart arguments, mueller report to all of this, in primaries, heart usually because we're not trying the trumps heads. mueller report, is that this >> correct. first of all, they all won the isn't the first time that they nomination. invited foreign interference al gore won the nomination, hillary clinton won the nomination. >> and john mccain won his in that is the background of the some ways for the same reason to current effort to get a foreign put him up against obama. nation to help them cheat in an >> right.

i do think that donald trump is election you can't say it's an accident a bit of a game-changer here. when you repeatedly are seeking and i think that he gives a lot of -- he gives a lot more weight foreign help and in this case we proved overwhelmingly that they to the experience and, frankly, the safer choice argument. were leveraging hundreds of >> it's the best joe biden has. millions of dollars that ukraine needed in military aid and a i mean honestly, i think if deeply sought after oval office there was something else he could sell, he would sell it. meeting to coerce ukraine into what he has to sell is helping him cheat. experience. what he has to sell is >> the president's defense team electability. now, the challenge is if either brought up the fisa issue. of those gets challenged, and there was a report that the arguably both of them have been justice department has said that challenged during the course of those renewal applications, two this primary competition, then i think he runs into some trouble. of them to survey carter page but this is the argument, this is the essence of the biden lacked probable cause. they tried t argument all along. >> amy walter, here's something what's your reaction to the i can't figure out. justice department's new why can't joe biden monetize decision >> well, look, for the purposes this impeachment for his of the impeachment trial, it's a campaign in some way? pretty remarkable argument, i say it this way and some on which is because there were the right are going to take that flaws and serious flaws in a word monetize and go crazy with it. but the point is he's the reason fisa application involving a single person, carter page, that they're in impeachment. donald trump apparently is very therefore, the president has afraid of joe biden. every right to disbelieve the yet he's not translating that to gushers of money. unanimous conclusion of the >> right. intelligence agencies that some of it is he doesn't want to

russia interfered in our last talk about it for personal election, they'll likely reasons, getting into the interfere in our next election discussion about hunter biden and therefore the president is right to investigate his and his son beau. >> but you worry about the political rival joe biden. i don't know how one thing campaign infrastructure -- follows from the other, but it >> that they are not using -- shows, i think, the weakness of right. he will say this on the trail. they're coming after me because their argument that there was some justification for the they know that i'm the strongest candidate there, right? president using the power of his that's it. office to investigate his opponent and i just don't think but -- >> and? you can make that case >> and, and. persuasively to the american but it also reminds -- people. >> where are you on witness >> but look at what others have reciprocity? >> look, i think the president done when they have been has the right to call relevant targeted by trump. >> that's true, but for witnesses just as we do in his defense. he doesn't have the right to democratic voters who are still living in 2016 ptsd, what they call irrelevant witnesses or witnesses who aren't fact hear is oh, no, this is hillary witnesses. >> well, if the senate says he all over again. does, why not? >> it's not just democrats too, that's the way the rules work. it's a lot of independents and i understand where you come from, but if the senate says he republicans. but also biden has never been a can, then he can. >> the senate can make whatever great fund-raiser. he doesn't have a lot of decision the senate can make and infrastructure for that and never has. the american people can judge >> coming from a very small that decision, but if we're state. >> but they never put a lot of talking about a fair trial, if effort into it either. the senators are going to give he is, though, i think in this content to their oath to be case -- i mean he gained a bit impartial administrators of over the last couple of months. justice, they can't say, well,

we're going to allow the it certainly hasn't hurt him in president to trade witnesses the polls. but you sort of wonder. that don't shed any light on the >> it goes to the head versus facts but would allow him to heart argument. once again try to smear his he's saying use your head. opponent, we're going to make that the pound of flesh, we're his campaign sending out a memo going to make that the cost of i am the most electable candidate. i think electability will be his calling relevant witnesses. >> if they're irrelevant, what closing argument in the final week before iowa. are you afraid of? won't that be exposed. >> can booiiden survive not >> it's not a question of what i'm afraid of. i'm not afraid of anything finishing first or second in iowa and new hampshire? the question is should the trial >> is it buttigieg who comes in second, he now becomes the el t be used to smear an opponent be? is it to get to the truth? hunter biden can't tell us electable or moderate anything about the withholding alternative. >> what a show! of the military funding. you guys were terrific. thank you. thank you for watching, hunter biden can't tell us why everybody. we'll be back next week from the president wouldn't let the iowa. i will see you tomorrow during president into the oval office the next day of the trial. hunter biden can't tell us and we'll see you next be anything it's a false choice that they say if the house gets to call witnesses, yes, we both get to call witnesses, relevant ones. one other point on this, chuck, which is important we have a very capable justice sitting right behind me who can

make decisions about the material at of witnesses we trust the supreme court justice to make those decisions. one final thing if you will. >> okay. >> the president's team is pushing out the argument we don't have timeto call witnesses. we'd really love to have these people testify, we don't have time it would be too inconvenient that's a dodge we have a justice who can make decisions if there's any legitimate claim of privilege. it can go to the justice -- >> their argument is that it interferes in the presidential election it starts to creep too close to it basically, at what point should the voters have this decision. >> it's a broader argument than that their argument is you cannot impeach a president in his first term because it will either overturn the will of the voters or prevent him from being on the ballot the next time the remedy of impeachment, if it's to be a meaningful remedy, means that you can remove a

president from office. if a president commits serious misconduct in his first term, he doesn't get a pass the danger to the country is particularly acute when the conduct involves threatening the integrity of the next election because that's normally the remedy if he's allowed to cheat, it's not a proper remedy. >> what do you make of the criticism that some republican senators who might want to vote for witnesses didn't like your head on a pike, murkowski, collins, ernst, all three who might be open to witnesses thought you got too personal. >> i don't think it was personal to refer to the cbs story. what may be personal though, and i think i have to be very candid about this, is i made the argument that it's going to require moral courage to stand up to this president and this is a wrathful and vindictive president. i don't think there's any doubt about it if you think there is, look at the president's tweets saying i should pay a price. >> do you take that as a threat?

>> i think it's intended to be but, look, it is going to be very difficult for some of these senators to stand up to this president. it really is there's just no question about it and i want to acknowledge that the shock and realization i don't want to acknowledge it that basketball superstar kobe in a way that is offensive to bryant has died. along with his 13-year-old daughter gigi and seven other them, but i do want to speak people setting in for hundreds candidly about it. of millions of fans around the globe. and if this weren't an issue, this morning we've got the there wouldn't be an issue about global outpouring.h and the calling witnesses. then to the growing concern if we can't even get the over the deadly coronavirus with senators to agree to call witnesses in a trial, it shows more confirmed cases in the united states. an emotional night at the you just how difficult that grammys that included tributes moral courage is >> try to have that conversation for kobe bryant as well as celebrations of some of music's in a second. chairman adam schiff, thank you hottest acts and biggest for coming on. winners. and a potential impeachment >> thank you. >> we'll be watching next week. bombshell involving former senate republicans do seem national security adviser john bolton and a revealing new book. increasingly unlikely to call a busy monday ahead and "early today" starts right now. witnesses. mike braun of indiana suggested democrats do want to hear from witnesses, it would come at a price. >> if you want itnesses, i

can't imagine where anybody would agree unless there was reciprocity. you get a witness, we get a witness. so that means you're talking about bolton, mulvaney, you're talking about hunter biden, maybe joe biden, maybe the whistle-blower, and i think it's disingenuous for them to talk about witnesses like it's in a vacuum. >> and i'm joined now by that senator you just heard from. re indiana. you're technically a freshman senator. >> i am. don't feel like it. >> welcome to the nfl as they say. welcome to "meet the press." let me get on this witness question i want to get at it by you first hearing something, peggy noonan said to me on friday, take a listen >> get them in there show history you did your best avoid the stigma of, yeah, they won, but they didn't let the extra people talk. >> yeah. >> avoid the stigma. respect history.

make the case big, end of story. >> she's basically saying, you've got the votes be magnanimous if you want to essentially heal the country. you want to prove you went above and beyond what do you say to her >> t saw that happen early was when several of us decided that why argue about what to submit into the record everything happened in the house. i was one of them. and then when it was a discussion of how much time did we need to spend, i now know that we did need three days on each side if you're going to take especially most of that 24 hours. but when it comes to this, i think it goes back to where i'm from, and it was ironic, i'll make this quick, i met adam just in the greenroom >> very washington moment we had. >> very washington moment. >> i think born in massachusetts, lives in california, represents the hollywood district i was born in rural southern indiana, moved to boston for two years to go to school and come back i asked him when we're done with

this can we get together on health care where i've led the way. he said yes. that's a moment where i think we can take optimism out of something that looks so divided. but when it comes to witnesses and peggy's point, chuck schumer and speaker pelosi, i think speaker pelosi was more apprehensive about this whole thing playing out to get where it was now they knew the rules. they knew mitch mcconnell was on the other side controlling it. i paid attention to each version of the house inquiry behind closed doors, public version, four constitutional experts. was really looking for what i found that was new it was repackaging i think when it comes to witnesses, each senator will have to ask with the political issues and the fairness factor do we need them? >> it's interesting this new issue. if you didn't hear anything new, don't you want to hear from witnesses like john bolton who you have yet to hear from?

to me this is a contradiction that this talking point hasn't been squared very well, fair >> i think if you want to take that point of view, yes. for many of us, depending on where you're from, this also is not only your own conscience you have to measure here, it is what your constituents talk about. >> i was just going to ask you that do you believe you're casting your vote for the people that elected you or are you casting your vote based on your interpretation of the oath you took >> and it is a tricky combination of both because i came here clearly not to be embroiled in this. broughso things from main street that i thought would make sense and on all of those issues, whether it's this or what i really came here to do, it'll always be based on principle. here the case so far, and i'll give them credit, they put together a broad, comprehensive case, but it was circumstantial in nature. then you say, well, you're

splitting hairs, but this is a political process. begs the question of all of us as jurors. none of us would be there in a trial. >> the case for witnesses that adam schiff made that i thought was an intriguing one was don't you want to get to the bottom of it now why wait until the book comes out? why wait until more recordings from lev parnas show up and suddenly -- you know, why do that why risk that? don't you want to know it now and then decide? >> so 20 years ago, which is our only guideline, we were starting to get politically charged then, it was probably a mistake and it was clearly proven out when that occurred, so here we're now in a more polarized time and place and i think when it comes to seeing all of this information, that is going to be so intertwined with your own political context and that's what each senator is wrestling with i talked to lisa i talked to susan at the tail

end be and they are wrestling with that. it's a pigger deal in some places in my area, the fact that they were talking about impeachment around inauguration, it was a partisan, you know, vote coming over and then it does overturn an election and it prevents another one nine months away that's what -- >> when it comes to though the issue itself, which is this idea that the president used government resources -- >> yeah. >> -- to benefit himself personally, it's clear he made this attempt you can decide whether you've said the call wasn't perfect the question is if you believe impeachment is too strong a penalty, what's the right penalty? >> so that topic from reporters kept coming up censure, and all i can say on this issue, this ought to be instructive to anyone here that if you're pushing the envelope or doing things that may not feel right, let alone be right, you better

be careful because we're in that atmosphere. >> this president as you know, he's going to take acquittal and think, i can keep doing this. >> no, i don't think that -- hopefully it will be instructive to where -- >> when you say hopefully, what's the evidence in his lifetime that he takes any sort of whatever it is, a miss demeanor ticket or whatever and then he accepts that and goes, i'll change my behavior? >> i think he'll put two and two together in this case he was taken to the carpet and it's because -- >> you think he has regret with what he did? >> i think he'll be instructed by what has occurred here and certainly any individual would want to avoid whatever might need to be modified to go through this again because the threat has already been out there that we may find something else to impeach on which i think is a mistake because i think we need to get back to what most americans are interested in, the agenda. >> you got -- you got hit on twitter because there's a photo of you and rudy giuliani and lev parnas. >> yeah. >> we'll put it up because i want to ask you this question about rudy giuliani.

are you at all now questioning the president's judgment based on how much he relies on rudy giuliani i mean, look at -- you took a photo with him you were taking -- you were trusting him that he wasn't going to put somebody who was going to eventually get indicted with you first of all, do you trust rudy giuliani anymore >> first of all, i'd say you have to trust who his cohorts are, igor and lev. >> what about rudy's judgment? >> i had notr an his 15 minute cameo performance and -- >> does it call into question the president's judgment in your mind he surrounds himself with these folks. >> remember i said instructive i think you need to take all of that into consideration because when you get through this, you want to get back on those issues that i came here for the climate discussion we are foot draggers on it, we are on health care if you want to be successful as your vindication with an agenda, let's get focused on that. >> senator mike braun,

republican from indiana, i'm going to have to leave it there. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspectives. >> you're welcome. >> when we come back, there's a campaign going on. we have brand-new polls and i'll talk to a democratic there's a lot of talk about value out there. but at fidelity, value is more than just talk. we offer commission-free online u.s. stock and etf trades. and, when you open a new fidelity brokerage account, your cash is automatically invested at a great rate -- that's 20 times more than schwab's. plus, fidelity's leading price imemars last year. 's w fidelity continuesmore to lead the industry in value plus, fidelity's leading price imemars last year. when we see you enter through our doors. we don't see who you're against, or for. whether tomorrow will be light or dark. all we see in you, is a spark. we see your kindness and humanity. the strength of each community. the more we look the more we find the sparks that make america shine.

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are now available at google.com/grow welcome back. if you needed proof that bernie sanders is surging, look no further than two new polls we have for you this morning. it shows sanders taking the lead ahead of buttigieg, biden and warren. amy klobuchar is at 8%. in new hampshire our brand new nbc news/marist poll has the exact same order with sanders again pulling into the lead. amy klobuchar got good news, double digits there and thestat largest newspaper. and senator klobuchar joins me now from waterloo, iowa. senator klobuchar, welcome back to "meet the press." >> hey, chuck, it's great to be

back. >> well, you get to be in iowa for a day, but you spent yesterday, half of it in iowa and half of it listening to want president's legal team give their first day of defense. what did you make of the tact they're taking here, which is essentially accepting some of the facts, questioning the interpretation. do you think they're making a case against witnesses? >> i think the house manager made the case, chuck. i am simply -- i just keep looking over at my colleagues and thinking you want to get to the truth. you know, you got elected to this job not to serve at the pleasure of the president, but to represent the people. and i don't know how they can cut out facts and evidence and then as i heard my colleague just say on your show, and then he says, well, it's circumstantial. well, come on. let's get to the founding fathers musical "hamilton" and talk about the people who were in the room where it happened.

that would be bolton, that would be mulvaney. they have the facts, they were there. no matter how they vote on impeachment in the end, americans want a fair trial. the polls show overwhelmingly people want to hear from the witnesses, so that's what i keep thinking when i hear the back and forth. let's just get this done and hear the witnesses. that is not what they're doing. they are afraid to hear from those witnesses. >> dick durbin, number two in leadership is sounding a pretty pessimistic note that you're not going to have the votes for witnesses. you have said that you have been running essentially during the breaks, talking to republican colleagues. you're usually involved in whatever bipartisan gangs -- >> yes. >> -- used to exist. do you share his pessimism? >> i still wait until that vote happens. people surprise you. and i think about these moments of courage, which i keep discussing with my republican colleagues. you know, john mccain with that arm of his that was -- because of torture he could hardly move

it and lift it, when he voted no against repealing the affordable care act. i think about lisa murkowski along with heidi heitkamp and claire mccaskill when they didn't have the stomach to vote for judge kavanaugh because of what went on in the hearing and in the past. those are moments that people voted against their immediate political interests but did things for the country. that's what we're asking them to do. not even actually for their vote on impeachment right now, no. the vote just to allow witnesses to come forward because zero witnesses plus equals zero justice. >> you're campaigning to win the democratic nomination. you believe one of the things that makes you aume which impli expect to where it should be the voters instead of the senators that when do we get to the point make this decision in your mind? >> look, right now we're doing two things at once. i'm a mom, i can do that. we've got the impeachment proceeding going on with those

hundred jurors who are there representing the public. as i say when i'm out here in iowa, you know what, you are the jurors. you are ultimately the jurors in the primary and in the election. and to me what you want for a candidate, you want someone that recognizes that, that this is a decency check in addition to an economic check on this president. if we want to win, we have to bring people with us that don't agree with everything that's said on that debate stage. i don't agree with everything that's said on the debate stage but i do know i bring the receipts of bringing in people in the suburbs, in the rural areas in a pbig way. i think that's why you see me surging, going up slowly but surely in these states,tim, thi. >> let me ask you divided party right now, but you're divided for different reasons, there's some eologil divides, there's divides in hand wringing over who's the best candidate to take

on trump, what should the vote be. let me ask this, how quickly do you think that democrats need to unite around the front-runner when there is a front-runner? meaning -- and you'll know it when you see it. how quickly do you think that needs to happen? >> quickly. and i envision that happening not right away. >> let me ask you this. >> let me just say, when it is time, we must unify because what unites us is so much bigger than what divides us. our people, that's what they want to do. i think they are ready to march forward together. but we must have candidates that are willing to do that and lead, and i thinkdy to bernie sanders joe biden or elizabeth warren? obviously you would support yourself. >> yes. obviously. >> are you ready to support any of those folks? >> i'm ready to support the winner, but i make a strong case here if you look at how we won

in louisiana and kentucky and wisconsin where we beat scott walker or in michigan, this is about candidates that reflected their states. i think senator sanders' idea of kicking 149 million americans off their current health insurance in four years is wrong. that's why i don't think he should be leading the ticket. i think i could be leading the ticket because my ideas are much more in sync with bold ways of getting things done, taking on the pharmaceutical companies, nonprofit public option, having annedcation plan that matches our economy, and the experience the getting things done. i'm the only one in the senate running left on that stage that has passed over 100 bills as the lead democrat. that matters to people right now. >> are you okay with the fact that if you're successful with witnesses you cannot be in iowa on caucus night? >> that will be -- that will be what happens. i have always believed that the obstacles on the path are not obstacles, they are the path.

if that happens, i think the people of this state and all the four early states, if it goes on that long, they get that we have a constitutional job to do and that is what i will be doing. >> senator amy klobuchar, democrat from minnesota, be safe on the campaign trail as you guys try to run back and forth. >> thanks, chuck. it was great to be on. when we come ♪ things you can do with schwab: you can earn more when you invest your cash. ♪ you can get a satisfaction guarantee. ♪ you can also wonder why our competitors don't offer that. schwab, a modern approach to wealth management. ♪

♪ ♪ i've been a caregiver for 20 years. no two patients are the same. predicting the next step for them can be challenging.

today we're using the ibm cloud to run new analytics tools that help us better predict and plan a patient's recovery. ♪ ♪ ultimately, it's helping thousands of patients return home. and who doesn't love going home. welcome back. the panel is here. lahnny chen, amy walter, kristen welker and mark leibovich.

kristen welker, this is what republican senators that many of us have identified as potential voters for witnesses and more evidence responded to some issues with the house impeachment manager, joni ernst, it's hard to keep an open mind when there's so much baloney being thrown at you. lisa murkowski, schiff was moving right along then he got a couple of places and that was unnecessary. maybe we'll all overread these things, but it is interesting that here is some folks going out of their way to indicate finding ways to not be for witnesses or not be happy about the house impeachment manager. >> that's right. they were almost given a way out, chuck. what was notable talking to democrats and republicans, they said we just don't have four votes right now. romney might be a yes, collins might be a yes but murkowski indicating she's not going to be a yes, so where do you find those other votes? they're looking potentially at lamar alexander.

one democrat said to me last night we're looking for our john mccain. i thought that was interesting that you heard senator klobuchar invoke his name as well. they said we're going to wrap ourselves in the american flag until this vote to try to hammer home that point that chairman schiff is making that is essentially we need to have all of the facts here before we have a fair trial. >> and this to me is the fascinating part of all of it. chairman schiff makes the case you've got to be politically courageous, take on your president, take on your base. i think if we learned anything in these last few years, if you are a senator in a swing state, it's not that you have to worry that your base is going to abandon you, it's voters that say they're swing voters, voters that want principle over politics, at the end of the day they vote their politics. so at the end of the day if susan collins comes out and said i did the right thing and the principled thing and democrats in maine say that's so great, susan collins. you say to that democrat are you

going to vote for susan collins? of course not. i hate donald trump and i'm going to vote for the democratic. so the incentive structure, there's no reward to be a modera moderate. >> the two arguments advanced by mitch mcconnell and by the trump white house, i think there is some traction there. they don't want to be sitting there forever and i think they think calling witnesses will result in a lot of litigation and will take a lot of time. i think that's an argument that has penetrated. >> is the senate busy? the only issue with that. this is a senate that basically just confirms judges. so it's not like they have a lot to do. >> they're not busy for a few weeks but they are in the next few months. so the argument that it could take a few months. the other piece that you're starting to hear more and more people say, the house job. that argument also is starting to sink in as well. >> i would say this, though, to amy's point.

every person she mentioned as an example of courage in the senate, claire mccaskill, heidi heitkamp, john mccain, none of them are there anymore. and the first two were voted out of office just about a year and a half ago. so, again, like to amy's point, the voters are sort of who decides where or how these -- a lot of the calculus is decided. >> so what's acquittal going to look like? it was really -- mike braun wants to have people believe or maybe he wants to believe that somehow the president is going to have learned something here. that feels like, okay, fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three, at what point do you start counting? >> there are no teachable moments in this process. no one is learning anything. the president is not learning anything. democrats are not learning anything. the notion that somehow we can arise from this and there can be some opportunity, so, no, i don't think -- there's no alternative here. what's going to happen is that the president is going to get acquitted. that's going to be it. so the notion that somehow we're

going to have this process and everyone is going to come out of it somehow having learned some lesson, i don't buy that necessarily.yeh. >> what's he going to do with acquittal. >> i thought it was so notable -- >> he'si'm athure he's g he's g say in that if he gets acquitted. >> the president and his campaign are already gearing up. they're already airways, trying to energize his base. he's going to be in cape may on tuesday, in iowa on thursday. he is going to use this moment to essentially try to energize his base and the campaign is gearing up to do that. a full-court press, i am told. >> is there risk for these republican senators that are in tough races if and when -- i say if, likely more information comes out and stuff looks -- and this looks worse and worse? >> and they're going to have to answer the question over and over again. >> why didn't you get a witness on bolton? bolton said this in his book. >> going back to my earlier argument, if you're one of those swing state senators, no matter what, you're in a terrible

position on this. the other thing to note, though, is that the president's overall approval rating during this moment, we've had a couple of polls, but abc -- >> doesn't move. >> right. he moves a little bit but it's basically -- >> the post-poll always does this. >> it's in the higher range. he's in the 40s, not in the 30s. so you can argue, i think, that this hasn't really moved the needle all that much. but it has put the focus on the things, the issue of the economy, where the president is the strongest. >> i also do think that there's greater risk in acquittal than republicans might be admitting. literally the first thing chairman schiff just said over there, which is they're deathly afraid of what witnesses will say. as chuck just said, witnesses will say something. they will come out. john bolton's book will come out, probably something before, lev parnas. every time that happens -- >> lev parnas may have another video out by the time we leave the show. >> there could be pictures of all of us. >> all of us, i know.

>> so there is -- the drip, drip, drip doesn't end just when they vote for acquittal. >> maureen dowd fascinating little nugget in her column today. i want to put it up here. one democratic senate staffer mourned the apathy, our phones aren't ringing. nobody cares. it's the saddest thing ever. the fact that you don't have even democrats storming the capital protesting, it's not there. >> i was in iowa, no one talked about this. it's not that voters don't care about it or democratsn' i think what it is -- they get the joke. they know what the vote is going to look like. so what they are looking for now -- >> somebody said that to me, i'm not watching because i already know the outcome. >> that's where it puts the issue of who's going to face the president into starker contrast. >> let's pause that and have that conversation about who's going to face this president. what the iowa caucuses may tell us about where the democratic party is headed in november. as we go to break, i want to remember a colleague for all of

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