this sunday, russia widens the war. >> russian vehicles just -- >> russia closing in on kyiv and expanding its onslaught to the west where refugees have fled amid fears it may be planning chemical or biological attacks. >> what's next? ammonia? what have they started? >> and russians also turned their guns on civilians. >> there are sounds every night.

>> flattening neighborhoods, even targeting a maternity hospital. >> i don't understand why it's necessary for russian took place to destroy us. >> i'll talk to jake sullivan and we'll bring together others to talk about ukraine. and bill barr. >> i was at donald trump's bidding, and people ran with that story. >> joining me are correspondent helene cooper, rich lowry, kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for "the boston

street, struck down. then there's this. babies and pregnant women being evacuated from a maternity hospital after it was targeted. hitting western cities, including an attack overnight at a military training center near lviv that was just 15 miles from the border of poland. they are hitting back, striking that convoy outside the capitol. in the besieged city of mariupol where mass graves are being dug, there is no food or water right

now. and they are targeting insurgents hiding in basement, even as it accuses ukraine of making such an attack. look what russia accuses others of. is vladimir putin really looking for an offramp? if so, what kind of deal can you make to end a war with a country that won't even admit there is a war. in a moment i'm going to bring in national security adviser, jake sullivan. but first we're going to go to richard engel in kyiv. this is described as a new stage of terror. what is he saying? >> reporter: it feels like we are at a new phase of this war, that initially the attacks by russia were in the east and in the south. there was some speculation that russia might try and do a lightning campaign and then sue for some sort of peace deal. the negotiations, however, have gone nowhere and now russia is

adopting much more long war tactics, besieging towns and cities in the south and in other places, and then carrying out these attacks in the west overnight and also yesterday. the west of this country is still open. it is still open to eastern europe and that has been an active supply line, bringing in weapons from eastern europe into this country, particularly american weapons, those javelins that have been so effective against russian armored vehicles. now with this strike overnight on the training base that killed at least 35 people, according to the local governor and injured more than 100, it seems that russia is saying nothing is off limits and it is trying to limit the supply of shoulder-fired stingers, javelins and other kinds of weapons that have been flowing into this country. also watch what's going on in the south, another indication that russia is going for a long war. the russians are now trying to set up their occupation in a

more permanent way, even though there have been protests against the russian president in the city of mariupol which russia controls. russia replaced the mayor and appointed a russian agent, and local officials are worried that russia is going to hold some sham referendum to make its political occupation more permanent. >> richard, i'm concerned about the strike in the west. i know you had an interview over the weekend with a u.s. military veteran, not active duty. we don't have any active duty u.s. military in the country. but he's of ukranian descent. he was an american citizen and was training in the fight to help ukranians against russia. we could have a number of american citizens in country fighting the russians right now. perhaps they were targeted in that strike, correct? >> reporter: it's possible. and i've met several ukranian americans who are here, who volunteered who are heading toward the front lines or here in the city.

as this war continues and continues to escalate, it is very possible you're going to have dual nationals, americans. that was some sort of explosion, and it sounded like it was pretty far away but close to kyiv just now. so, yes, it is possible that you could have foreign nationals, including americans, caught up in the violence. likely, i would say. >> richard engel with the reminder in the background there that this is an active war zone. richard, thank you. and joining me now is president biden's national security adviser jake sullivan. jake, welcome back to "meet the pres." >> thanks for having me, chuck. >> i want to see your reaction overnight to what has happened with shelling now in the west, that military training facility that was hit. a missile may have struck 15 miles from the polish border. has any of this escalation into trying to destroy supply lines,

indiscriminate bombing in the west, has this changed the president's calculus at all about things like a no-fly zone or things like that? >> well, chuck, the american president has been clear for some time now that there are no u.s. troops currently operating in ukraine, in eastern ukraine or in western ukraine, and that we will defend every inch of nato territory, but u.s. forces will not engage russian forces inside ukraine. that remains true today. it remains true on the ground and in the sky. but what we will do is increase and intensify our efforts to supply the ukranian defenders with the weapons and security assistance they need to defend themselves. just yesterday the president approved an additional $200 million of military assistance to flow rapidly into+z ukraine d we're coordinating the efforts of our allies and partners to do the same thing. >> is there going to be any sort of necessity to have a military

escort for that aid? i mean, if they're now going to bomb supply lines, and russia said any of this is fair game in their mind, how are you going to protect the aid that we're sending in to make sure the aid gets in the hands of the ukranians and, say, doesn't end up accidentally in the hands of the russians? >> well, i want to be very careful on your program or on television at all in terms of talking about the operational details of those supply lines and the means by which those weapons are getting to the front lines and into the hands of ukranian defenders. i will just say this, that yesterday, today and tomorrow, we are determined, and the ukranians are determined to ensure that anti-tank, anti-armor, anti-air capabilities, ammunition and other forms of assistance actually do make it to the front to blunt the russian advance. and we've seen real success in that over the course of the past two weeks. it's no surprise that the russians are trying to expand

the number of targets in this war, because they're frustrated by their lack of ability to take some of the major cities, by the fact that they are well behind the objectives they set for themselves, and by the incredibly stiff and brave resistance that the people of ukraine, the military of ukraine, and ordinary citizens of ukraine are putting up, and we're going to continue to support those fighters as they fight. >> the other major development of the week was this warning from western intelligence that russia was preparing perhaps to use chemical or biological weapons. the president used the phrase "severe price" in reaction to what would happen if russia did this. he said, they pay a severe price. i assume these economic sanctions are a severe price. can you define what that phrase means? >> i'm not going to, in public, lay out the specifics of the severe consequences that russia would face were it to actually

use chemical or biological weapons inside ukraine. i would just say the united states, in coordination with our allies and partners, is prepared to impose such severe consequences, and we have communicated that directly to the russians, we have consulted with our allies and partners about it, and we are prepared for that eventuality. the reason we're so concerned this could happen is when russia accuses other countries of doing something, it's a good tell that they may be on the cusp of doing it themselves. what we're here to do is to deny having a false flag operation, to take away their pretext and to make the world understand if chemical weapons are used in ukraine, it's the russians who will have used them, and the response will be, as the president said, severe. >> so you want putin to think that consequence could be anything?

>> we want to be able to communicate directly to russia alongside our allies what those consequences could be, but i do not want to sit in public and lay out every possible option available to the president, available to our allies to respond. we would prefer to do this directly through channels, and we think that puts us in the best position to deter it and the best position to respond should they actually move forward with a chemical attack. >> is there a severe economic consequence that we've not leveled against him yet? >> well, you just saw on friday the president alongside of his fellow g-7 leaders announce a further round of economic sanctions to include cutting russia off from large elements of the international training system, denying the import of key russian products to the united states, imposing a ban on luxury goods going to those oligarchs and cronies around putin. that was the next step and

ongoing effort to continue to squeeze the russian economy, and it's having enormous impact. and there are additional steps that we will continue to take, additional targets of oligarchs that we were developing, additional measures to tighten the economic vise that we have put around the russian economy. we will continue to do that on our allied partners. the russian stocks haven't opened for two weeks, and it just announced it will not open, because if it were to open, you would see an immediate cratering to the stock market, showing just how much damage to the russian economy has already occurred. >> does china or any of the chinese businesses or the government, will they be targeted with sanctions if they are seen helping russia get around ours? >> we have made it clear to not just beijing but every country in the world that if they think they can basically bail russia

out, they can give russia a workaround to the sanctions that we've imposed, they should have another think coming. because we will ensure that china nor anyone else can compensate russia for these losses. in terms of thed■ specific mean of doing that, again, i'm not going to lay all of that out in public, but we will communicate that privately to china as we have already done and will continue to do. >> i got one more question for you about the issue of venezuelan oil. i want to quote from debbie wasserman schultz. critically, neither this hostage reniece, nor russia's invasion of ukraine warrant allowing the murder russ maduro to profit under the autocratic rule. is the administration still pursuing some democratic answer

that will take oil off the market? >> the release of two american citizens are now home reunited with their families. there are more american citizens still in venezuela, heartbreakingly, who we are working around the clock to try to get out. what i will tell you is this, chuck. any sanctions relief we will provide in the last administration and what's true in this administration have to be tied to concrete steps on what maduro will take. >> do you seize defensive weapons? >> they seized the fighter jets and weapons, but the key here is president biden looked at the assessment of our intelligence community, took the advice of his military commanders, talked with his allies and determined that it did not justify flying

fighter planes from a u.s. base in germany to a contested air space in eastern europe. but he also directed us to double down on our efforts to get the ukranians advanced capabilities that could achieve a similar purpose. >> jake sullivan, national security adviser -- i know you're busy -- i appreciate you spending a few minutes with us. >> thanks for having me. once again we've brought together experts to discuss the war in ukraine and what options the u.s. has to help in the fight against russia. admiral james stavridis, michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia, and also joining us is marie yovanovitch, former ambassador to ukraine. she is also author of the new book "lessons from the edge." welcome back to the two of you, and welcome. >> thank you. >> i want to start with something you wrote in your book. we have failed to call out russia's behavior in a way that russia finds persuasive or taken

steps to stop it that russia finds compelling. if we stumble around it, maybe we will find ourselves in a conflict not of our choosing and not to our advantage. you wrote this sometime in the fall of 2021. >> the summer. >> here we are. >> here we are, and i think that's what the history shows. chechnya, syria, ukraine won in 2014, now ukraine in 2022. we say this fight is our fight, that this is a confrontation between freedom and tyranny, and so i think our -- we've done a lot, but i think our actions need to better match the rhetoric. >> i had a democratic congressman from chicago, mike quigley, say to me, you know, ukranians have earned it, the way they fought these first two weeks. he said, they've earned our support at this point because they are fighting our fight. and he was basically leaning into the idea of a no-fly zone like this. is that where you are?

>> i think it deserves serious consideration. i think we need to look at the gamut that's out there for us. we need to calculate the risk and be smart about it. but i think there is also a risk when you're dealing with somebody like putin of not responding boldly enough, because he will take advantage of that. he senses fear. >> admiral stavridis, let's talk about what you heard from jake sullivan. severe consequences. clearly they want to create the ambiguity out there. what's realistic if they use this? what can or should we do? >> i think you have to, at that point, consider aksñ no-fly zoni think is a pretty logical next step. but i'll give you a halfway house. that would be going back to the idea of getting fighters in the hands of the ukrainians. and i get all the puts and takes of that -- >> you want ukraine to do the no-fly zone. they would basically be the ones to do that, not nato? is that the goal here? >> it is.

what you would want to do is put fighters in their hands, and the way to do that, chuck, is to have ukranian pilots come to nato, train briefly and then fly those fighters back. >> why wasn't that the plan in the first place? it seems to be the most logical way to do this. >> it's unclear, but i have full respect with the way the administration has to navigate between our allies and the risks the ambassador just pointed out. i think to your question, what do we do if we see chemical weapons, which by the way i agree with jake sullivan when they say it's a tell, watch for it to come from them. but what should we do? i think you go back to the idea of giving the ukrainians the tools to implement a very serious no-fly zone. chuck, sometimes plan b is work harder on plan a, and i think this is one of those cases. >> hey, mike, the fact that the russians are having to bring in foreign fighters, to me, talk about a tell and a show of

weakness. what message should that send to our folks? like what should we be reading into this? >> well, obviously putin is frustrated. he would need these people otherwise, and he's striking new cities because he's frustrated and he looks frustrated on tv when he talks. this is not going the way he wanted to, and that says to our side, if you mean our side, the american side, get into the fight to win. the consequences here, as we were just talking about. this is not just about ukranian freedom. if we lose in ukraine, we, the liberal democratic world, that sends a powerful message to our competitors, autocratic competitors in the middle east and asia, and it makes our allies and partners in all of those regions nervous. so when i talk to the administration, i say, hey, guys, a-plus for what you've done so far in terms of military assistance, sanctions and fortifying our nato allies, but this is just a midterm. you got homework to do.

>> not midterm as in a political show. midterm like an exam, i got you. >> i think it affects their plan, not mine. i don't think a no-fly zone is an appropriate thing. i think that is a declaration of war and we should call it that, have the u.s. congress vote on it, that's their job. anything short of that we have no excuses but to provide the ukrainians what they need to fight this war. i just talked to zelenskyy two days ago and that's exactly what he said. he said, you guys are standing on the sidelines, we got it, but give us the tools to win this war on the ground. >> ambassador, i saw that you and president zelenskyy didn't really see eye to eye at first, or perhaps he had bought into some of the caricatures and some of the stuff that was being said about you. are you surprised by his resilience? >> yeah, i think that the man has really met the moment.

he is a hero for all ukrainians uniting the country, inspiring them, and, moreover, inspiring the rest of the world. it's remarkable. >> while i have you here, i have to ask. with threatening to withhold military aid, which is what got the first impeachment, what made a household name for a bit and why you had to testify before congress, how much did that impact what's happening today? >> i think it certainly plays a part. i think putin saw how trump viewed ukraine, and -- >> he viewed it as a chip. >> yeah, as a pawn. >> a chip to negotiate. >> i think the release of that transcript showed the world that we had an administration that was ready to trade our national security for personal and political gain when the president of the united states, of all people, should be working for all of us and our national security. >> i appreciate you coming in. i appreciate that you wrote the book.

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and where the physicians doing the world-changing research are the ones providing care. there's only one mass general brigham. welcome back. the panel is with us, correspondent helene cooper, rich lowry, and kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for "the boston globe." welcome to all of you. kimberly, let me start with your beat. this week seems consequential in

terms of the moves we make. what do you see? >> i think each week has been consequential and this week will be as much so. the pentagon and the biden administration at this point in time are still being extremely cautious, really, really deliberate, and they're still very focused on not escalating, because at the end of the day, we need to -- when we talk about things like getting involved, when we talk about things like putting in place a no-fly zone, it's clear, and ambassador mcfaul said this earlier. we should be clear about what exactly we're saying. when we say put in place a no-fly zone, what we're saying is be willing to go to war with a nuclear-armed russia, a country with more than 4,000 nuclear weapons over ukraine. and be very clear. maybe we make that decision that that's what we want to do, but the american people and politicians and everybody who are talking about this should be

clear -- should be very, very crystal clear about exactly what we're saying, and if russia did not have more than 4,000 nukes, we would have long since been in this war. but at the end of the day, this is what has sort of tied the administration's hands while at the same time they're trying to be as forceful as they can on sanctions and on the economic side. >> peter, you were stationed in moscow as a stint, as a reporter. he has, right now, the control of the information system. but he's not going to be able to keep this idea that ukraine is not going well away from his people for long. is there a -- could -- he could declare victory and go home if he wanted to right now, and his people would believe it. how much longer will his people believe this? >> he controls the information space. at some point if the russians have lost six, seven thousand

troops, six or seven thousand body bags are coming home, six or seven thousand funerals. >> he can't hide those. >> when my wife and i were in moscow, we saw the power of the mothers, the soldiers' mothers, and they had autocratic power in every state. >> they have huge power here, they have it there. >> and they're killing not only chechens, they're killing enemies as they see it. that makes it more volatile in the political context. >> what's interesting here is congress seems to be ahead of biden. the public seems to like what biden has done, not necessarily like biden himself. president biden's decisions on ukraine, this is a navigator research polling, 60% think he's made the right decisions.

president biden's handling of ukraine, 60% upside down. the russian banks from s.w.i.f.t., increasing aid to ukraine, they said, come on, biden, let's do more. they may drag him into a no-fly zone. >> they may, but remember the action on the ground is changing every day. ukraine may be pushing the president to make other determinations. they're talking to each other, they're come ing to a conclusi this is ho government is sued to wor this way,d that may be why we're seeing his approval rating go up and looking at the actions right now. right now politics is usually

about who we see as the enemy. right now we're united, we see putin as the enemy and congress is reacting. that's important for america to see. >> for those of us who seem to think congress should be more forceful, when there is a bipartisan majority, you can push a president. i think that distinction in a poll that seems odd -- poor decisions, but you're not approving his handling, it just goes back to the thought that this threat is not enough for americans to rally around the flag effect, but things are out of he's been dragged down by that since the start fortunate administration. >> i think that blew back on them more than they thought. >> the problem with energy politics is there is not the kind of actors throughout producing the energy supplies at

the time you need them. who are the people out there, saudi arabia, venezuela, iran. the people who have the capacity to do it are not the people we like. that's a fact of life. you pick russia as your worst case at the moment because you're mad at them, and it makes you have to rethink your friendships elsewhere in the world. >> and kimberly, it seems that the nation is divided about how to treat china. treat china as a part of russia and see if they're embarrassed and pull back. >> it's interesting to see how russia is trying to pull china into this. they are very much threatening china, watch how far you go -- >> he didn't threaten sanctions, though? >> no, he didn't, but there is no doubt that a lot of chinese businesses will be dragged into this. i don't know how they get out of it. you also have, on the diplomatic front, you have to look at who

can help to bring about some sort of exit ramp. when you start talking about that, you have to look at israel, you have to look at china. china could well be the best chance that there is, so, you know, it's a push-pull right now. >> when it's good versus evil, you sometimes have to have some ambiguity about discerning the real evil from the somewhat evil, i guess. when we come back, a change of subject. of subject. i'm going to this is ma tya titan. she's smiling because her small culinary supply store, titans pans, is up and running. and this, is nfl star derrick henry, accidentally tagging “titans pans,” instead of his loyal fans. which, very unexpectedly, has her business trending. and trending. and trending. and oh my. das internet auf dem telefon. and there goes the internet. good thing maya uses fedex to help prepare for unexpected demand. because you never know what's next.

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welcome back. bill barr is no stranger to controversy in his two years as trump's attorney general. critics say he was more of an advocate for president trump than a justice leader. but he also defied mr. trump by insisting publicly there was no evidence of voter fraud in the 2020 election, and the former president, not surprisingly, has turned on him. he wrote a book "one damn thing after another." thank you for joining us. >> thank you, chuck. thank you for having me. >> i want to start with something you said in an

interview in 2020 a couple months before the election. >> the liberals project the president is going to stay in office and seize power and all that. i've never heard of that crap. i'm the attorney general, i would think i would have heard about it, okay? they're projecting. >> september of 2020 you didn't buy it. >> no. >> obviously, hindsight shows you they weren't projecting and they weren't wrong. do you admit that now? >> i'm not sure what the basis was for saying at that time that he had some plan to stay in office. i think he actually, at the time of the election, thought he won the election. if there was a plan to stay in office, it's something that materialized after the election. i saw no sign of a plan before the election to stay in office regardless of the outcome. >> i hear you there, but president trump himself, there was a reason why people drew these conclusions. i'm just going to play you the greatest hits, if you will, over

the 16th and the 20th. he's simply not accepting the election results. >> the only way we can lose, in my opinion, in pennsylvania is if cheating goes on. i will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election if i win! >> it's going to be fraud all over the place. >> the only way they can win pennsylvania, frankly, is to cheat on the ballot. >> he was sowing the seeds for four years. he accused ted cruz of cheating in the caucuses the first time he appeared on any sort of ballot here. is this a pattern to practice? >> it was the same thing in 2016 on both sides. i felt for a long time he was going to lose the election. i went in in april and told him i thought he was going to lose the election. his personal behavior, obnoxious

behavior, was turning voters away and i felt he was going to lose. i was actually surprised it was as close as it was. >> you seemed to think he was always getting bad advice. you talked about rudy giuliani in particular who i think you credit him in the book. rudy giuliani led him not to one impeachment but two. you seem to not put the blame on the president. don't you think he looks for people to give him this bad advice? he didn't want to take your advice, he didn't want to take john bolton's advice on certain things. he did want to take giuliani's advice. isn't that on him and not giuliani? >> oh, yes. and i say he seems to surround himself with people who tell him what he wants to hear. before the election, he cast his net broadly and talked to a lot of people and cabinet secretaries, all of us, frequently had to wrestle with him to accomplish things that we thought would keep him on track, and we were successful,

generally, but it was frequently like wrestling an alligator, as i said in the book. but after the election, he would just listen to this group of people who had no government position but were telling him exactly what he wanted to hear. he's ultimately to blame for that. there is something about him that he, you know, wants to be surrounded by yes men. on the outside of government. >> that is the mark of a lot of authoritarian leaders. they want to be surrounded by people who tell him what he wanted to hear. we're dealing with this with putin now. does that not give you pause about his ability to ever become commander in chief again? >> i don't support him to be renominated in '24 and i'm going to support somebody else. >> i understand that, but you sort of shocked a lot of people because you spent a lot of time in your books as painting this person unfit for office, and making it clear that he himself

has temperamental issues, he's got character issues, and yet you would risk that again over joe biden? >> well, i think there are a lot of american people right now that might prefer being -- having him back in office than biden. >> you have a firsthand account. you saw it up close. >> i think elections are a binary choice. unfortunately sometimes it's choosing the lesser of two evils. i believe that the progressive wing of the democratic party is dangerous for the united states. >> you've said this quite a bit. it's an uncomfortable thing to hear from somebody who was needing to provide equal justice under the law as attorney. you said it while you're attorney general. you really think the left in this country is somehow more dangerous than some issues around the world.

you feel like -- >> i just said in terms of the leadership of the country, i think they would be a dangerous choice for the united states. and, you know, our system, the person who is in charge of the administration of the criminal law, is a politically accountable official. an official has to be politically accountable but at the same time based on law and facts with no favoritism or partnership, which i did. >> the account i read in your resignation or the accepted resignation, it seemed like you were anxious for him to accept your resignation, that you didn't want to be there, perhaps, for whatever shenanigans he might pull in the last 20 days in office. am i reading that correctly? >> no, because actually i thought he was history on december 14, the day i tendered my resignation. >> is that why you wrote such flowery language, which is a lot different than this book? >> in the book i give him a lot

of credit for identifying the key issues and having the gumption to press forward and accomplish a lot of good things for the american people. his combativeness worked good for him in 2016 and partly while he was in office, breaking the smothering ability of the media. i tried to be balanced. i pointed out what i thought were his failings and the fact that he went off the rails at the end. but on december 14, the states certified their votes. >> you felt there was no fear he was going to mess around after that? >> i thought that was history, that there was no way, and there is no way, really, to turn that around. >> what did you think about the reports he was trying to install jeffrey clark as attorney general and fire the person who had been the acting attorney general? >> i was surprised he was taking things so star. >> did you know mr. clark? >> yes. >> did you know the proclivity

of doing something like this? >> i was surprised. >> would you fire someone for doing that? >> of course. >> i want to play the infamous -- there are so many phone calls with him, but let me play this phone call because i actually have a recording of this one, with georgia officials on january 2nd. >> you just need to find 11,780 vets, which is one more than we have, because -- >> it's being investigated. there is a grand jury in atlanta looking into this. how damning do you believe that statement alone is, perhaps, when it comes to him being found guilty of breaking a law? >> i listened to the whole call, and in my opinion, what i heard was he was listing all the votes that he felt were questionable or fraudulent. and there was a big total, and i

interpreted that statement as saying, look, somewhere among all of these things that we think are fraudulent, surely you can find 11,700 because i have many more votes that are fraudulent that i need. i thought that was the thrust of the conversation. but, you know -- >> you also seemed to hint at potential -- an investigation intimidation?nt into mr. >> i thought that was very heavy-handed, but let the process in georgia work. they're going to get all the facts. i disapproved of his behavior after the election and made it clear from the very beginning that i did. >> you would be surprised if a grand jury indicted him? >> personally i would be. >> all right. elaine -- the book is called

"one damn thing after another." thank you for coming on. >> thank you. we heard so much about president putin. coming up, where they park their money. mac schindler worked here for over 40 years. he produced "meet the press." he was at the democratic national convention. national convention. his grandson sai he hdad ♪ ♪ hey, i get it, commitment can be scary. but not when you're saving up to 15% with subscribe and save at amazon. you get free repeat delivery on your favorite items and if things don't work out, you can always cancel. seriously, no one will judge you if you call it off. ok!

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welcome back. the panel is back here. before i get to president putin trying to fix his problem, the interesting comment i had from mr. barr was his comment with georgia and that phone call.

it really follows the pattern of his entire book. he outlines something bad and then gets to a generous, it's not as bad as you think. >> he looks at him as an animal that has to be wrestled and then he was like, what's going on here, and the fact he gave the exact number he needed to change the vote is just coincidental. this is the line that people try to walk, anyway, when they're on their quest for post-redemption. the question i have is that if he was so keen, if he was so sure that the election interference was nothing, why did he allow u.s. attorneys have an investigation? why was he right there at the very end until it was clear he was leaving and it was time for him to exit out the door? he's still threading the needle

but it seems wrong to me. >> there seems to be a form of what-aboutism. yeah, but, look at this. it's so hard to defend. >> it is hard to defend, but there are people who are influential at the end of the day said no to trump. bill barr, i think pence the most influential. the story hasn't ended. for me you look at ron desantis, senator tom cotton, and you have thighs republicans really thoughtfully trying to come up with a synthesis, how do we do a pre-trump republican party, a post-trump republican party, without any of the baggage of trump, without any of the insanity of 2020, and for me my them going back to trump. >> he tries to make trump

mystifying. >> he said this guy will get us into a war. actually, my personality is what kept us out of war. putin is going to get worse and worse, he's not going to accept it. we have no one to talk to him. he had someone to talk to him when it was me. >> he was so crazy and volatile he wouldn't do what he's doing now because he didn't know what i would do in response. okay. he's still, of course, not criticizing anything putin. he's rather criticizing americans, and especially joe biden, than he is vladimir putin. he refuses, to this day -- and we don't know why. this has always been a central mystery of donald trump. what is it he thinks is happening between him and vladimir putin that he won't say one negative word about him? >> i would love to just game out where we would be right now if

donald trump was still president and vladimir putin had invaded ukraine. first of all, trump would already have pulled us out of nato because that's what he wanted to do. he already started pulling american troops out of europe. the pentagon kind of stalled out until biden came into office. the first thing he would have said is, it's not our problem, ukraine is not our problem, that's it, go off and do -- this is not our business, and nato, at this point, would have been completely divided. you would see disunity, you would see other nato countries peeling off, the alliance would be broken. let's make sure when trump is saying this stuff about how much differently -- if donald trump was president right now, we would be on a very different course. >> he's using putin as an attack on a trump-endorsed candidate.

if it proves to be effective, that should be a signal, no? >> well, look, there are some republicans on the wrong side of this, because the isolationist impulse in the party and the belief that if there is something everyone believes, it must be wrong, right? it's true that something everyone believes are wrong or distorted, but not all the time. it should have been obvious all along that putin was a cynical thug, and now it's been unmistakably demonstrated. i do think on the madman theory, i think putin would have hesitated or would have been wary. things have happened that trump was calling for. end of nord stream 2. end of defense spending. if you want to look at one of the biggest strategic things that happened against putin's interest is the feckless power. germany is now going to get serious about its defense. >> kimberly? >> i think one thing that's happening besides the

isolationism of these republicans is they know donald trump likes putin, and they want to be as trumpy as possible, and i think that is one of the problems here. i agree with helene, i think we would be in an extraordinarily different position. i don't think the unity in favor of the ukranian people would be what it is now if trump were still in office, and i think that's something the party is still wrestling with individually all the way down the ballot. >> what trump said about ukraine, they're all bad people there and they're trying to take me down. he was never sympathetic to the ukranian cause and even when he was president, he had to be bullied into it by the republicans. >> thank you, guys. thank you all for being with us. we'll be back next week and we won't have any time changes, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

good morning >>on they? three u.s. officialsa has asked military equipment and other support. we are live in beijing with the latest ukrainians staying behind amid increased russian military strikes. we'll hear directly from the people trying to survive hour to hour the goat is back