twizzlers this sunday, putin's warning. as the war moves to the east -- >> they are in a dire situation. save them. we need more weapons. >> and ukraine sinks a key russian warship. the u.s. announces a new $8 million weapons package. but president zelenskyy says he still needs more. >> we need it sooner. we need it now. is it enough? we don't think so. >> russia warns the u.s. of dire

consequences. >> nobody can predict putin's reactions. >> my guest this morning, austrian chancellor karl nehammer, the first to sit down with putin since the war began. with cases up but hospitalizations still low, what about omicron's variants mean for the mandate? >> you want the mandate to be over. >> i'll speak with the coordinator, dr. ashish jha. >> we first have to defeat the rhinos and grandstanders in the primary. >> trump announces he's leaving congress. >> so many are beholden to trump

that they won't hear about -- >> my panel, matthew continetti, eugene daniels, ruth marcus and amna nawaz. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. happy easter and happy passover. in kyiv and across the country between air raid sirens and emergency curfews, ukranian jews gathered with their families for passover, relatives in europe having to say next year in ukraine. the world is marking a war with ukraine dragged into a cruel and senseless conflict. there were processions through kyiv as ukrainians marked palm

sunday. orthodox easter is next week. missile strikes and retaliation after ukranian missiles sunk the flagship of the russians in the black sea. really humiliating for the russians, and now the russians are staging helicopters at the eastern border and sending ar -- artillery for a long campaign. russia is warning of unpredictable consequences directly to the united states through diplomatic channels if the united states and nato continue to arm ukraine. what is that a pretext for? all of this after the united states denounced a new $800 million aid package that includes helicopters, javelin missiles, and for the first time, much heavier artillery. but president zelenskyy is still asking for more. in fact, he said this. when some leaders ask me what weapons i need, i need a moment

to calm myself because i already told them the week before. it's groundhog day. nbc news correspondent matt bradley is in bucha this morning, and, matt, we thought this region was somewhat safe and then overnight cruise missiles hit kyiv. what have you seen, what have you heard? >> reporter: yeah, i mean, we're talking about cruise missiles landing outside the capitol city. this city is still kind of lurching back to life despite some glimpses of the fighting still going on. the mayor of kyiv just sort of shortened the curfew that had been in place for several weeks by a couple of hours, just as an indicator that things were kind of getting back to normal despite constantly hearing air raid sirens and the continued shelling outside the city. i'm outside of kyiv right now, and as you can see, they're cleaning things up. i'm in something of a graveyard myself, but this one is for vehicles. if you can see just over my

right shoulder, chuck, these are some of the russian tanks that were recovered from bucha, totally burned out. over here are civilian vehicles. a lot of this, you're seeing signs of, you know, surrender. this is a white flag, and we're seeing this over and over and over again, chuck. white flags tied to cars that have been riddled with bullet holes, and in this case it looks like shrapnel holes, something a large munition blew up right here and clearly sprayed this car with shrapnel. this handwritten sign right here, it says, dieti. that means children. and we're seeing the same thing on this car here. a lot of these vehicles are going to be figuring into investigations into war crimes in the coming weeks and months. chuck? >> an important crime scene that matt bradley is at right now. matt, thank you. this week austrian chancellor karl nehammer became the first world leader to sit

down with vladamir putin since the russian invasion began. austria is one of six countries that are not in nato and the country is facing questions about the official neutrality it has maintained since the second world war. earlier i spoke with the chancellor and asked him about that putin visit. you decided to visit bucha before you went to the kremlin. and you had said you wanted to be a firsthand witness and confront mr. putin by what you saw. tell me what you told him. >> well, you know, i took the decision to visit first ukraine and to meet president zelenskyy, the prime minister, the defense minister and west prime minister, and they showed us bucha. we saw the war crimes there. an orthodox priest told us russian soldiers shot the civilians. and after the trip to ukraine, i

did a trip to moscow to confront president putin with what i saw. you know it was not a friendly conversation, it was a frank and tough conversation, and i told him what i saw. i saw the war crimes, i saw the massive loss of the russian army, and i told him there is a need for humanitarian coordinators for food and water, and we have to take care of the wounded there. >> what was his reaction? you accused his soldiers of committing war crimes. what was his reaction? >> he told me that he will cooperate with some international investigation on the one hand, and on the other hand, he told me that he doesn't trust the western world, so this will be the problem now in the future. i think international trust is

the united nations and an international investigation is necessary, so it was a tough discussion between each other, but i tried to convince him that, for example, it was the latvian war that showed us an international investigation is useful to prosecute the war criminals. >> you came away pretty pessimistic. why? >> you know, we all can see that there is the preparation of a messy battle in the donbas region. the ukranian side is prepared for that, the russians are prepared for that, and we will see many losses of human lives there. so this is the reason why i'm pessimistic on the one hand. on the other hand, both sides, president zelenskyy, i talked with president zelenskyy about the trip to moscow, and both

sides, president zelenskyy and president putin, managed their istanbul peace talks. maybe we have a little chance there for peace.so informed the president of turkey. >> do you get the sense that vladamir putin is viewing reality in what's happening in ukraine, or is he getting a dressed-up picture of the war? >> no, i think he is now in his own world. he thinks the war is necessary for russian guarantees for the federation. he doesn't trust the western world. he blames ukrainians for genocide in the donbas region.

he is now in his world, but i think he knows now what is going on in ukraine. >> when you heard our cia director talk publicly about the concerns that when putin is cornered, he might do something like use a tactical nuclear weapon, the person you sat down with, do you think that's a person that might use a nuclear weapon? >> it's a tough question. i think he knows that he has this weapon, and he knows the threat of this weapon. i don't know if he'll really use it, but he knows that he can threaten the world with these weapons. >> does he believe he's winning the war or losing the war? >> i think he believes he's winning the war. >> did he give it a rationale? did he say why he thinks it's

going better than the rest of us? >> i couldn't say that. he sent me clear messages about his concerns. what i think is necessary to confront him all the time with what is going on in ukraine. i think this is necessary. at the end of our talks, he told me in german, it's better that the war ends earlier than later. so i think he knows exactly what's going on now. >> i want to talk about additional punishment by the european union of which austria is a member of. you say you want sanctions that punish russia and don't punish europeans. obviously this has to do with the oil and gas issue. you're very reliant on russian gas. how quickly could austria cut itself off from russia without having an economic catastrophe? >> i mean, we do it already, but

it will take time because our dependency on russian gas is 80%. it's a similar situation to the republic of germany, and our industry and our private households need the gas. so now we try everything to get independent, but it is not possible today, tomorrow, but maybe in a few years we are independent from russian gas. >> austria's neutrality, it's written into your constitution. obviously as a member of the eu, you have some protections of nato nations if something were to happen to you. given what you've seen the russians do in ukraine, i'm guessing it's hard for you to be neutral in this war. you're against this war. do you feel the need to want to help ukraine more? >> well, you know, first of all, the austrian neutrality is deeply rooted in austrian

history. so in austria, there is no discussion about neutrality. but we are neutral in a military way. we are not neutral if we see that we have to help to show solidarity, to help, and that we do. >> would you like to see ukraine become a member of the eu? would you support that? >> i said also to president zelenskyy and the prime minister. i think ukraine needs fast and tough help like a new plan on how to rebuild ukraine with the united states, with the united kingdom, with the european union. and after this is finished, there are questions about the european union. first things are first and first we have to help to rebuild ukraine. >> karl nehammer, the chancellor of austria, i appreciate you taking a few minutes to talk to us. thank you, sir.

>> thank you. >> we're going to discuss the ukraine situation more a bit later in this show. but now we turn to the covid-19 pandemic. it's entering a new phase driven by fear and apathy. in the united states, it is reaching a new high and the msk mandate will still be required for traveling. but the hospitalizations dropped to 21,000 in america. cases have ticked up in the past week. take a look at where they were in january. we were at 80,000. but differences in how states test. just this week california tested

140 people out of 100,000. germany tested just 87 out of 100,000. joining me now is dr. ashish jha. dr. jha, welcome to "meet the press," sir. >> thank you for having me. >> i'm no longer asking you about opinions, i'm asking you about policy. let me start with the current state of the pandemic. are we in the middle of a new surge? >> first of all, as you pointed out, chuck, really important to take that bigger picture perspective. we are in a much better place than we have been for the last two years, certainly way better than we were in january, and that's really good. cases are ticking up, and we're going to want to watch this carefully. it's being driven primarily by b.a.2, this highly contagious variant of omicron. so far, as you said, hospitalizations are largely flat, maybe inching up a little in a few places. we're going to have to pay very close attention to this and see where it goes. >> are you safe from these

subvariants? have you been vaccinated? >> yeah, the good news is our vaccinations are holding up really well, even with the b.a.2. you have to have the two shots and a booster. that's what's protecting people at this moment. >> i know you believe local officials should make local decisions. i get all that. but are they using the right metric? is the case count t right metric? right across the way from philadelphia to new jersey, we don't have an accurate picture of the case count in new jersey. does philadelphia, and do they have an accurate enough one to make a decision like this? >> it's a great question. if you look at the cdc guidance -- and by the way, something i've been well supportive of way before i came into my current call. the cdc says case call should come into it, hospitalizations is another, and hospital capacity is a third. you should be using all of those. that said, that's a good framework for local officials.

that said, local officials do have a lot of local knowledge of where is it spreading, in which communities. they're looking at other types of data. so i have been supportive of local leaders making local decisions, mayors and governors, and i continue to be supportive. i think that's the right way to go. >> are you concerned, though, if you do something based on a case count and not hospitalizations, dr. wen, she said you risk a crying wolf situation. >> how you communicate these kinds of decisions to your community is an enormous challenge that all local and federal leaders face. that is always important. and the question is, are the leaders in philadelphia and other cities making decisions based on what they think is in the best interests of people there? i think they are. i think in general that's what most of our political leaders are doing. they're trying to get this

right. and they've got to figure out a way to communicate that so people understand. when cases go up, they're going to look at their own local communities, figure out where it's spreading and make those decisions. i don't think it's useful for those of us sitting in washington to second-guess those decisions. >> speaking of washington, a federal protection mandate is something that is a washington decision, whether on airplanes or other federally funded transportation. what metric are you looking at for this decision on may 3rd? >> so, first and foremost, is the cdc decision, right? and the cdc scientists, what they laid out, they said, look, we need 15 more days. the reason we need 15 more days is cases are rising. we want to see is this going to translate into more disease, more hospitalizations, more deaths? i think in 15 days we'll have a lot more information, and then they are going to make a decision, they're going to make a recommendation based on their assessment of the signs. >> so you were an advocate of a vaccine mandate when you were on the other side of this in your

private capacity here. is that something that can be implemented, a vaccine mandate for air travel? >> that's a really good question. i think, you know, when i was -- i have always believed, and certainly in the early days of the pandemic, once vaccines became available, i thought it was very important to get as many americans vaccinated as quickly as possible, and man dates worked. mandates do work. we are in a different position now with so many people vaccinated and boosted, and we need to ask ourselves what do we do moving forward and look at the different situations individually. >> would it be easier for the airlines to mandate a vaccine mandate rather than a mask mandate? >> that's a good question. i think ultimately for the airlines, the decision that the cdc is facing right now is do we extend that mask mandate moving forward. that really has to be driven by

the broader decision, what's happening with the state of the pandemic. >> a couple vaccine questions. we still don't have a vaccine for, essentially, birth to 5. are we basically not out of the mask mandate world or even voluntary masks, if you will, until we figure out how to get folks under five vaccinated. >> great question. first of all, i think we should let science and evidence drive when we're ready to get kids under five vaccinated. moderna has put out its press release. they're going to be submitting the whole set of data to the fda, hopefully reasonably soon. i know pfizer is working on this. we'll have a lot more information. i don't think we need to tie that to broader mask mandates. these are two separate issues, and i think we should keep them separate. >> the boosters. i'll admit, my own doctor seems to have some confusion. is the cdc recommending it for everybody 50-plus, or just

approving it for 50-plus, consult your physician? >> first of all, on boosters, let's be very clear on one thing, chuck, which is everybody needs that third shot, that first booster. every adult needs one. there is overwhelming evidence that that's the best way to protect yourself both against infection but, more importantly, against severe disease. on the second booster, the data out of israel is pretty compelling that people over 60 who got a second booster four months after their first booster saw not just a reduction in infections but a reduction in deaths. i think that's what prompted the cdc -- >> why not 60? if 60 is where the science is, why did we lower it to 50? >> the data is 60 and above. there are a lot of people in the 50s, especially if you have chronic disease, that are high

risk. in my mind, as i read the evidence, people over 60 should be getting that booster. that evidence is pretty compelling. 50 to 59 you're certainly eligible. it depends on your risk profile. that's where it's important to talk to your doctor. >> dr. ashish jha, welcome to the government, as they say. i appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective on this. when we come back, the republican party is coming back to take over the majority party (vo) verizon is going ultra! to take over the majority party and now, you can too with the offer you just can't miss. for a limited time, get a 5g phone on us! (mom) delightful. (vo) with no trade-in required. (dad) i love it. (vo) what's not to love! verizon is going ultra, so you can get more. ♪♪ (vo) what's not to love! ♪♪

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but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for this... yourself. get allstate and be better protected from mayhem for a whole lot less. . welcome back. last week representative fred upton became the fourth to announce he is going to retire. five on the right have been challenged by trump's endorsement. after upton announced his retirement, trump released this statement writing, upton quits. four down, six to go.

congressman fred upton joins me now. fred, good to see you. >> nice to see you, always. >> let me start with what you told my colleague vaughn hillyard. this is on march 30, not that long ago. you said the conception of giving trump a chance to win was to retire, although i don't want to give trump a win. >> i was ready to go -- >> you wanted him revoted? >> my primary area was lake tahoe, about 350 more than i had before.

>> did you travel this new district? >> absolutely, yep. i did, and we would have been welcomed in a lot of different places, but we had have had to raise, i don't know, five to six million bucks. in a couple months, i could have done that, but in the end it's time for family. i've got three grandkids now, one is actually saying, there's papa. he's two years old. he's watching right now. >> i'm curious what you think is going to happen to a republican-controlled congress next year. don bacon, a republican from omaha, he said this. we can't have this mindset of burning the house down. we have to be a governing party when we're in the majority. we need folks like upton so other people have to step up. you regularly vote to keep the government open, and you're usually in the minority. i think the last time the debt ceiling was raised, there was only going to be 33 members left. >> maybe even less. >> do you fear that this next house republican majority could lead us to default? >> a lot depends on what happens

in november. i do believe that the house is going to flip. in fact, i talked to charlie cook earlier in morning. he believes that as well. what is going to be the marginal? i think it will be better than pelosi, better than it is today for her, but i don't think it will be this wild swing knowing we picked up a lot of seats in the last election despite biden winning. what's the over/under? that will be a big determination. >> a small majority, does that make it more likely? is that more trouble? >> more trouble. that's why one of the vice chairs there is so important as we try to have some glue on the fabric to deal with issues we have to deal with, be it immigration, be it energy, be it inflation. the debt ceiling also is going to be an early, early test in the next congress. >> you got death threats for

infrastructure spending. >> i did. >> it made it easier to say, i'm out. >> well, death threats, they never were like we had this last year, but it was pretty crazy. and remember, that was a republican bill. literally a year ago this week, governor hogan brought a bunch of us up to his place in annapolis. republicans, democrats, senators, governors, house members, both sides of the aisle. we defined what infrastructure ought to be and we decided how to pay for it, and it passed 69-30 in the senate. it was the issue all last summer. lindsey graham, trump's best friend, voted for it. >> if you're getting death threats, what is the likelihood of someone watching you and saying, forget it, i'm not going to vote. >> it will be a detriment getting good people to run, it really will. i have a school board member who was getting death threats, too, over the mandate.

it puts you at risk, particularly when they threaten not only you, and i like to think i'm pretty fast, but when they threaten your spouse or your kids or whatever, that's what really makes it frightening. >> let me ask about if the republicans are going to run on anything, and i'm curious what you would have done. kevin mccarthy says the republicans run on an agenda. >> i think they should. >> here's what mcconnell said. >> if republicans took over control at the midterms, what would be your agenda? >> that's a good question, and i'll let you know if we take it back. >> it's a lot easier to run an election against somebody than being for anything. isn't this what's wrong with our politics? >> you have to be for something. i think what kevin mccarthy has done a different subjects, be it high tech or deficit or energy,

is a good thing. i was one of his deputy whips back in '94. that's when we came up with the contract for america. that was a huge effort. we didn't say we were necessarily going to pass them, but it was going to be an agenda item for the next 100 days. i didn't actually vote for all of them, but i signed the contract that we should have a debate and some of them became law. >> can kevin mccarthy represent both you and marjorie green? >> if it's under 240, it will be very hard to govern for republicans if we're under 230, knowing we have the mtg element that's really not a part of a governing majority. >> we've had wild types of members of congress since the history of this republican party. >> always have.

remember jim trafficen? >> look, beam me up. but marjorie taylor green and paul bosart, is that a different than we've seen before? what does that tell you about the republican party? >> troubled waters. pelosi has the votes, particularly with the use of the proxy vote. she's not going to lose a vote, and i don't think she really has in the last year and a half. we're not going to have proxy votes. kevin has made that very clear. none of us want that to happen, and it was put in place, really, because of the covid issue. a lot determines what that level is going to be, and i'll be watching you in november. >> i don't mean to throw it very quickly at you. you were just in the region of ukraine. just a simple question.

is the united states doing enough to help ukraine? >> we have to do everything we can. let me just tell you, ukraine folks are so brave, they are fighting for us. it was a bipartisan trip that i went on. we have to make sure they have every tool to make sure they can survive. >> it sounds like you think we can do a little bit more. >> we can. >> fred upton, thanks for coming on. i may bug you more. when we come back, with the cost of living climbing and cost of living climbing and keeping in part ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. that's why we build technology that helps everyone come to the table and do more incredible things. ♪ ♪ (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ and do more incredible things. ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪

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panelists here, matthew continetti, eugene daniels, ruth marcus and amna nawaz, author. it is a fascinating book. eugene, i want to start with you because you had an interesting interview with the president's pollster. i want to put up a couple poll numbers here. his overall job rating in our

cdc poll and the economic job rating, and the reason i seek these two out is they're converging. they're basically the same. his overall job rating i think is being seen through the lens of the economy, pure and simple. no other issue is popping through. and then you had this interview. what did he have to say? >> he had some interesting things to say, but this is the worst environment he's seen. democrats say things behind closed doors, they won't say it on the record or in front of cameras, but they do worry with the economy, they think about what they'll do in the midterms. when you think about the administration being able to pass the build back better, or call it what you want at this point, he said if they're able to do that, they'll be able on break through. if you touch health care, if you

do something with the care economy, if you do something with climate change, he thinks that might be a work-through, but that's hard to see happening at this point. >> there's one demographic i want to point out, which is voters under 35. they're used to life when, oh, there is a new gadget out? in six months it will be cheaper, not more expensexpensi. this is a whole different world. 82% of the public thinks the economy is only fair. you want to buy a house for the first time? you're paying a higher interest rate than your parents ever paid, never mind food and gas. this is a huge part of the dem coalition. >> it's not great. you're talking about one of the key groups that not only help democrats win back control of congress, propel biden in the white house, but also will be in play more than ever before. when we talk about the economy, we're talking about inflation,

we're talking about cost of living. because the white house will, again, point to things like unemployment being at record lows, under 3% in 20 states, wage growths at the rate it's been. but also the fact that wage growth is not keeping up with the cost of living. so this generation stepped out into the world, and we're immediately hit with two back-to-back financial crises. you have the global financial crisis, then you have this crisis from the pandemic, and things are not getting better. even if you go back just a year, vaccines were coming out, everything was going to be back to normal. wages have been suppressed, they are facing unemployment and they are not optimistic about the future. >> i want to show these nevada numbers, because incumbent senator katherine cortez mato,

there is still work to do there, but when you look at the nevada ticket, voters starting to peel away a little bit, working class, non-college-educated whites. this is a problem and in nevada it is acute. >> nevada is a very acute problem, and it is indicative that democrats are facing a very dire situation in november. just to put some numbers on that, more than 7 in 10, 72% of nevadans rated economic conditions fair or poor. this is a state that has gone for the democratic candidate four times in a row, democratic presidential candidate. it's a state that biden won. now his approval rating there is below the overall poll. it's at 35%. and most scary and perhaps most ominous is the peeling off of hispanic voters in nevada.

slump of approval rating from 73% a year ago to 52% now. you just read that if you're a democratic candidate or pollster, you read it and gulp. but it's going on here. >> one of the bigger issues for democrats is they are talking about things they've done, right, they talk about the arp, covid money, child tax credit, talk about the infrastructure bill, but voters are thinking, what are you doing now, what have you done for me lately, and the white house knows that. >> there is a myth that hispanic voters don't care about the same things. that's not true. how is the economy, how are the

schools? >> hispanic voters, republicans have always said, and with good reason, that they are naturally republican voters. there is a lot of social conservativism among the hispanic voting block to the extent that hispanic voters are not supporting that, they're just hurting themselves. >> you can make an argument that successfully getting an end to this war sooner rather than later can actually help the economy. >> sure. the two issues are almost at odds. the longer that war goes on, the longer there's going to be food shortages, the longer there will be fuel prices going up. and we know, we've seen in the data, yes, inflation had been going up for four months before the ukraine war began, but we know a lot of that fuel increase was because of the fuel increase, because of the war.

most americans do look at the pandemic and they say, okay, 6% of americans say, i get it, that's where the economy is the way it is. 6% blame putin, but 45% or so blame president biden. they're not going to vote against putin, they're going to have to decide about that. >> the cost of living was number one. the second which was striking was government and poor leadership. republicans have been able to recover from these kinds of setbacks, but i think the public has judged biden and judged him negatively, and it's going to be hard for him to change that perception no matter what happens. >> the one thing to hang their hat on is clinton had a bad midterm, and biden may have a bad midterm. two more coaches have added

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nfl first instituted what's known as the rooney rule. it requires teams to interview at least one candidate of color for a head coaching job. there were three black head coaches, just three then, and today there's still just three. three of the league's 32 head coaches are black. head coach brian flores filed a class action lawsuit alleging racial discrimination after being fired. two other coaches have signed on since. matt bradley takes a look at the nfl. >> among coaches, currently there are only three black head coaches in the entire league, and throughout the league's nearly 102-year history, only 25 black men have ever held that position. among dungee.

i think the question is, does the nfl have a race problem? >> we do have a problem. when you have an organization that is 65%, 75% american on the field, but then you look at the office, the support staff, it's not that. you have to question, what's going on here? >> in the nfl, they are evaluating hiring practices, but in the end, it's the owners that have to make these changes. have to make these changes. when we come back, you're probably thinking that these two are in some sort of lover's quarrel. no, no, no. they're both invested... in green energy. and also each other. digital tools so impressive, you just can't stop. what would you like the power to do?

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welcome back. we've had quite a few changes in abortion law, pretty much since the start of this year, both on the restrictive side in the states and on the legal side as well. look at this, we had some 40-plus states had seen more restrictive abortion laws introduced, and i believe we've had nine of them enacted, eight of them had republican governors, just one didn't, and that's andy beshear.

on the democratic side, you had about 30 states who introduced bills to protect or expand abortion rights. you'll be shocked to know, ruth, that all of those states had democratic governors, except for one, larry hogan, and guess what? larry hogan, his veto was overridden by a democratic legislature, andy beshear. on the other side his veto done on that. but we're all doing this waiting on what happens by june in the supreme court. >> what's going to happen in june? >> you tell me. >> june is not good news for abortion rights, but what's remarkable, i think, is the energy, the jump the gun urge among conservative states and republican state legislatures. guys, you're going to win. it's only a question of how much you're going to win and how quickly. you can't even wait for the court? apparently not. we've had a situation in texas where what is now a constitutional right has been allowed not to take effect for

almost all pregnant women since september. we now see in kentucky, for the first time, effectively abortion is outlawed there because they have passed a law that is impossible to comply with. it requires abortion clinics to have mechanisms to dispose of feet fetal remains, but that is not possible. so abortions are outlaud by state legislatures and so far allowed by the courts even before the courts react. that's pretty remarkable. >> i want to play on both sides of this debate how governors are messaging their decisions. take a look. >> this will represent the most significant protections for life that have been enacted in this state in a generation. >> the assault on women's privacy rights and bodily autonomy is no longer a theoretical risk. >> we want oklahoma to be the most pro-life state in the country. we want to outlaw abortion in

the state of oklahoma. >> no matter what the supreme court does in the future, women in colorado will be able to choose. >> matthew, i think a lot depends on how the supreme court rules on abortion, right? because i think -- if this is a debate about legal or not legal, republicans might have a bigger problem than if this is a debate about 15 weeks or 24 weeks. >> a couple things, chuck, on this important issue. the pro-life movement has had two major goals since roe v. wade. one is to reverse roe v. wade. that seems like it could happen or come close to happening with a huge space for states to regulate abortion in june. the second goal is to ban ofhe that have been used. that's a hard one. people preparing for reintroduction of the abortion

law in the democratic state, and i think that means you'll get extreme laws on both sides. one -- >> when it's about legality, it's a clear majority in favor of staying legal. it's when you start getting into the details that things change here. when you spoke to manzanoni, are they counting on a ruling that energizes them. >> yes, and democrats talked about this a little bit. they expect this to be something that sends people to the polls. the problem is, depending on how the supreme court rules, roe looks like it will be rolled back a little bit. that's already going to happen and there's no change they are going to do, other than to say if you give me more senate seats, you give me more house seats, we can pass a federal law so we don't have to go through this route. what that map showed, both of

these maps, what we have is a world in which there are two countries where you can go in one state and get an abortion and literally a mile away cannot get an abortion. >> missouri is trying to figure out how to even prevent that, for what it's worth. >> in texas it's a perfect example. we saw at the end of last year, there was a six-week ban in texas that private citizens were allowed to enforce, and that's how they avoided court intervention. thousands of women left the state to be able to go to other places to have those same kind of abortion care services. you don't need to pass an outright ban to essentially limit and completely remove a woman's right to a legal or safe abortion, you just have to pass enough rules that clinics can no longer be in compliance to do it. >> i'm going to get out of the specifics and get to the cultural issue left and right. is a cultural war midterm election to the benefit of the democrats or the republicans? >> it depends which battle of the culture war you're going to

fight. if you're going to fight about gay rights, about schools and things, i think it may end up being a pro-republican issue in certain states. if you're going to fight about abortion, it's going to end up being in those perhaps same states, pro-democratic issue. however, it is really hard to see a culture war outcome determinative battle when you have inflation in the state. >> inflation will overcome everything. >> i said this might have been a lifeline to democrats in the off-year election. that didn't happen. democrats did very well in the off-year election, and right now abbott is leading his bid for reelection. that backlash has not happened. >> i think we all wait for what the supremes tell us in june. i need to pause for a

moment. before we go on, the passing for a lot of us, a friend and colleague here in washington, ellen rieger. we shared a bureau together for decades with her. she was diagnosed with brain cancer almost a year ago. wendy wrote this. as you know, i lived my life big and loud. it's my nature. i've had a blast. but a stillness has come over me that is profound and potent. i didn't know i could be this quiet. life is not a test, it's a teaching. i must learn this lesson with grace, and i will. wendy rieger was 65. that's all we have for today. thanks for watching. have a happy easter and happy passover. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

refusing to surrender. ukrainian troops defy russian demands to turn over mariupol as new missile strikes batter the country, one hitting a world central kitchen in kharkiv a chaotic end to holy week in jerusalem more than 100 injured in clashes across the city, raising new fers of an even greater conflict shots ring out at a packed house party in pittsburgh. two killed and nearly a dozen injured as hundreds race to escape the violence. bracing for a spring surge th