will be 90 minutes until they can clear that. that is what is happening in here today in the bay. >> do not forget coverage of the january 6th coverage that will start at 7:30. good morning, bipartisan senators announce a deal on new gun legislation. the most significant in 30 years. frankly what made the difference this time was just how horrified millions of americans have been. >> a step in the right direction. the intense gauche asians behind the agreement. what is in and what was left out and why democrats and republicans believe they will have the chance to land it on the president's desk. round to of the commission will focus on trumps big lie in

the election that he lost. his role in the capital riots. one of the campaign managers is that you testify. on the move, -- >> they stopped a u-haul full of dudes. >> what they were planning to do. hundred and 30 million people are facing severe weather today from mexico to the carolinas. severe storms farther north. we will have your forecast. to safety concerns, a lifeguard shortage across the country. the impact on your summer fun straight ahead. full house, and emotional word show overnight.

the honor that brought out his family and friends. newly his legacy lives in my life. today, monday, june 13th, 2022. good morning, welcome to mack today. it is monday morning. we are happy to have you along with us. we will start with day two of the january 6 hearings on capitol hill. that is set for this morning. the wind is now includes a former trump campaign manager and a political editor on fox news that came under fire because of the election night coverage. we have the details just ahead.

the heat wave in the west is now on the move. 80 million americans from coast to coast are now under a heat advisory. stocks are tumbling. gas prices are soaring to a new all- time high. over five dollars a gallon. how that is affecting the cost of everything that we need to buy. the top story, signs of hope on gun legislation. a group of senators are announcing a deal on what would be the first significant federal action in decades. it is in response to the mass shootings. it is been following the negotiations. >> reporter: good morning, make no mistake, there is a lot of work to be done before any part of this deal can become a law. some gun safety advocates say that it does not go far enough. this morning, lawmakers in both parties are calling this a

major breakthrough. after decades of deadly mass shootings, this morning the u.s. senate has a deal on gun safety that lawmakers believe could save lives. a bipartisan group of 20 members announcing the framework of a bill that will take on gun violence. >> we will need to make some meaningful commonsense changes. it allows courts to take guns away from people in danger. it makes major investments in mental health, suicide prevention, and school safety. prevents domestic violence offenders from purchasing guns. it sets up a mandatory review of juvenile and mental health records for gun buyers under 21. this may have blocked the 18- year-old shooter from buying his weapon. the agreement does not include banning assault weapons were raising the to buy them from 18 to 21.

>> it is a significant step forward. >> reporter: the president writing the framework would have the most significant gun safety legislation to pass in decades. republican leader mitch mcconnell also issued a statement on sunday. with 10 republicans already signed onto the deal, i finished bill could overcome it without his support. >> i am hopeful that we will get more than 10 of the republican colleagues. >> reporter: in negotiations wrapping up as supporters rally in cities across this weekend hoping to keep pressure on lawmakers to make it different. this pressure comes from an emotional appearance at the white house. recounting how he asked a senator last week to name the best change that he can imagine, the sender said, something. now he says that for the first

time in 33 years, passing. that is fairly fast for congress, especially when they do not have a bill ready yet. one possible complication, the nra. they are not reviewing the framework. they will look very closely at the final bill and they will propose anything that they consider gun control or anything that might chip away at the second amendment. also at capitol hill this morning, the january 6 committee will continue its discussions. christian walker is here to set the stage. good morning. >> reporter: good morning. the pressure is on the january 6 committee as it holds a second hearing this morning. the focus, former president trumps big lie. there will be two panels of witnesses. the most notable was supposed to be the former campaign manager but he canceled this morning for a family emergency. the committee is hoping he will

be another building block for trump. in just a few hours the january 6 committee will hold its second high-stakes hearing. they will focus on the anatomy of former president trumps big lie. he spread claims of fraud and then ignored dozens of court rulings against him. former trump campaign manager was supposed to take the hotseat today under subpoena but pulled out due to a family emergency. in the new york times after the election had been called in favor of president biden, he told mr. trump of the low chance of success. he played a pivotal role in the messaging. >> we will still win it.

>> reporter: another notable witness, a political editor who came under fire from the former president as being part of the fox team that called arizona first for biden. >> i will tell you what i will testify about. >> reporter: they have enough evidence from the justice department to pursue a criminal indictment of mr. trump. to i would like to see the justice department investigate any allegation of criminal activity on the part of donald trump or anybody else. many republicans disagree. >> he is politically and morally responsible for what has happened. in terms of criminal liability, i think the committee has a long way to go before they can establish that. >> reporter: the committee will keep the momentum going after the dramatic opening hearing last week which includes videotape testimony of president trump's daughter.

she accepted bill barr's statement that the election had not been stolen. >> i accepted what he said. >> reporter: we cannot overstate this. the witness who was supposed to make the most headlights has canceled. it is not clear about whether he will be called back in. if he does, it will be under subpoena. do not expect him to throw any bombs. he advises trumps candidate. he is not going to lie under oath. it is serious. he will give a presentation. the committee wants to know exactly when mr. trump was told the numbers were not in his favor. we did reach out, so far, no response. >> we will be watching at 10:00 today. it starts at 10:00 a.m. eastern. so file.

prices are soaring, the average price of gas is climbing over five dollars overnight. blayne alexander is in atlanta this morning. hi, blaine. good morning. >> reporter: good morning to you. in cities across the country we are seeing more signs like this one. gases hitting that dreaded five dollars threshold. in some places it is higher than that. we're not just talking about gas. you're paying for more things across the board. that includes things like grocery, travel, and more. experts say that it could be this way for months. this morning prices are as high as -- as inflation is causing us to pay more. food is up 10%. housing is up 5%. you're paying 37% more for airfare. gasoline is up 44.7%.

the national averages over five dollars per gallon. >> you cannot go anywhere anymore. >> reporter: and many americans are not. according to a recent poll there is lee less grocery store trips. >> does not look like there is any end in sight. >> reporter: when will americans see some relief, not for some months at least. >> the additional demand of summer travelers, -- >> reporter: some gas station owners refused to wait that long. they refused to charge customers for what he calls, overpriced gas. >> it is a ripoff. >> reporter: the frustration is echoed by joe biden. many are pointing fingers at

his administration. while the white house called inflation a top priority. consumers are not buying it. one study is showing that consumer confidence dropped 40% over the last year. it is lower than at the height of the pandemic area and. >> expect to live with inflation for a while. let's turn to the arrest in idaho. they were packed into a u-haul truck to go into a small town's pride parade. gabe gutierrez has the latest. >> reporter: men from across the country were hiding in a u- haul here. the fbi is now helping with the case. the greatest domestic terror

threat is coming from white supremacist groups. the dramatic scene unfolding in a small town in idaho. dozens of suspected white nationalists were arrested after police found the group crammed inside this u-haul truck. it was headed for a local private event. the men were clad in riot gear. one of them wearing a shirt with the words, reclaim america. >> we stop the u-haul. >> reporter: authorities say that they got a 911 call after they saw the men at a hotel and described them as a literal army. >> they had shields, shield guards and other riot gear. >> reporter: they also recovered one smoke grade and it was similar to a military operation. they were headed to a local park where pride festival was

underway. >> a citizen saw something i was concerned them and reported to us. >> reporter: now they are all charged with misdemeanor -- to write. they belong to a network called the patriot friend. it is a white supremacist group. >> look at their language, look at their symbols, look at their ideologies, they are white nationalists to the poor. >> reporter: during pride month, filled with so many celebrations, many in the lgbtq community are now on edge. >> it hurts my heart to know that these people are coming for us. >> reporter: no word on when the group will make their first

court appearances. there have already been online threats towards police officers involved in the arrest. a quarter after the hour. we have the latest from ukraine. >> a troubled situation is playing out in ukraine where russian forces are advancing. civilians are taking shelter in a chemical plant. >> reporter: we are walking -- watching the street by street fighting. in that city in order to take the city back or the next 24 to 48 hours will be critical. >> this morning russian forces are creeping closer.

the fighting is for every meter of that city. it is entirely under russian control with an estimated 10,000 civilians still inside. russian media shows smoke rising from the chemical plant where the governor says that about 500 people including dozens of children are sheltering. in nearby villages as the fighting creeps closer, not everyone wants to evacuate. sweetheart, where can i go? who is waiting for me? let others go. they are young. russia can still be stopped, but with more weapons. they are tweeting out the military wish list overnight. the president is saying that it is longer-range weapon systems for ukraine, we will use -- which you have plenty of. he's entrusted to the bbc, as many as 200 ukrainian soldiers are dying every day. combined with the wounded, they might lose some 700 from the battlefield daily.

in the eastern city for a 12 hour break. >> after it is very intense. you can make a mistake and you can be dead. >> reporter: there is no question that she is going back. >> it is volunteer soldiers that you just met that are fighting on the front line and they are increasingly on the front lines as well. ukraine is lowing time to train up volunteers. we are tracking extreme weather including storms spreading across parts of the country.

>> there is a lot going on. storms across the northern plains. we will get to those in the next half hour. the heat will be a major story. you cannot be outside for too long especially in areas that are not is used to the heat like the northern plains area there is a heat advisory. that includes st. louis, cincinnati is under heat watch right now. we will see temperatures there today tap out at about 20 degrees above average. st. louis, 101. omaha, should tie the record at 105. there will be a record of 98 degrees, 97. he will work its way eastward as we go into the next several days. chicago will be close to record- breaking heat on tuesday. with a high of 97 degrees. charlottesville, 93 degrees close to the record of 96 degrees. as we go into the middle and end of the week, we will see highs close into the 90s and 100 degrees. he will make its way into the

northeast as we get into friday. we will get to your local forecast in the next 30 seconds. u t in the next 30 seconds 123450i678 battling super villains as a magically transformed yellow bunny? hard. getting an online offer from carmax. that's easy. get a real offer on your car in just two minutes. carmax. car buying, reimagined. see “minions: the rise of gru,” only in theaters. rated pg. good monday morning. here's a look in san francisco. it will not be as muggy today. temperatures will be in the mid 60s for san francisco. up first 60s into the interior. it will be in the upper 70s, low 80s.

not as hot as what we saw this weekend. definitely not as muggy. conditions will be dry, with the wind acted to pick up in the next couple of days and in temperatures. >> that is the latest forecast. we will have an interview with amber heard. sitting down to talk about that trial. for the very first time. now we will have an emotional evening from bob saget and friends. first, this is today on nbc.

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beep. beep. what up, nick? again, charles? i need to add to my cart for father's day. i think that's a different type of cart. grab those shoes and get in. coolers? rack 'em and stack 'em. drivers. time to go clubbin'. dad joke? it's father's day. good morning, it is 7:26. here are today's top stories. we are minutes away from these january 6th insurrection hearing. it is getting back underway. >> good morning, news today from the nation's capital. the lead witness investigating the attack has delayed his testimony. there on the left, he was president trump's political director, he was supposed to testify today under oath, under subpoena, his attorneys say that his wife went into labor.

he was expected to testify. he told trump, he lost the election fair and square. trump went ahead with the big lie anyway. the committee will go forward with taped testimony. if you are looking to fill up your tank, expect to pay a lot of money. right now, the national averages $5.01. the state average for a gallon of gas is about $6.43. compare that to a year ago, it was $4.22. experts say that there are many factors that play into how much you pay for a gallon of gas. one of them is the conflict between russia and ukraine. it is not slowing down. demand is up right now. less humidity today. dry conditions with temperatures in the 70s for san francisco. it is dry heading into tuesday and wednesday.

we will cool off by thursday and friday. take a closer look at your inland temperatures. enjoy the 80s today because it will be warmer ahead. it could be the warmest day between the elevated fire danger. today it will not be as humid. that is nice, especially when it is the high 80s. this morning on california live, meet the doctor behind the surprising documentary. that is this morning at 11:30 on california live. illinois is in the middle. and what do you find in the middle?

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back now 7:30 right now it is 7:30, it is june 13th, 2022. we will join our friends on the plaza in a little bit to say hello. we have a lot to get through this half-hour. we have an exclusive interview tomorrow and today. >> we sat down with amber heard. her first since the trial with her husband, johnny depp will talk about the trial by fire against her on social media.

>> i do not care what someone thinks about me or what judgment you want to make about the privacy of my own home and in my own marriage. i do not take it personally. even somebody who is sure that i am deserving of all of this hate and betrayal, even if you think that i am lying. you still cannot look me in the eye and tell me that you think on social media that there is been a fair representation. you cannot tell me that you think this has been fair. >> that is her take on what happened in court and what the jury decided. >> there is no polite way to say it. the jury looked at the evidence , they look to your testimony, they did not believe you. they thought you were lying. >> i will put it this way.

how could they make a judgment not come to that conclusion. they sat in those seats and hurt over three weeks of nonstop relentless testimony from paid employees. towards the end of the trial, rando's. >> you do not blame the jury? >> i do not blame them. i understand that he is a beloved character. people feel like they know him. a fantastic actor. >> the job is to look at the facts and the evidence. they did not believe your testimony or your evidence. >> how could they after listening to 3 1/2 weeks of testimony about how i was not a credible person. not to believe a word that came out of my mouth.

>> we will have more of our exclusive interview tomorrow and wednesday morning. it is a wide range sit down. we will have a conversation on a special day line. 8:00, 7:00 central. now to the emotional tribute to bob saget. >> he was recognized last night, and now kelly is speaking about what it means to their family. >> good morning, the impact award recognizes career excellence and a positive impact on the world of nonfiction content. >> tonight, the impact on her, after everything we know about bob saget.

>> overnight, a touching tribute to bob saget. john stay most presented the actor and comedian with a critics choice real tv impact award. >> he was a family funny guy and an aristocrat of dirty jokes. >> his widow made a rare public appearance to accept the honor on his late husbands behalf. he is calling the award bittersweet. >> he is so thrilled, he is so honored. >> the ceremony recognizes the best in reality tv. >> hello, i am bob saget. >> as the first host of america's home video, he made it a home staple, and it further submitted his role as america's dad. the award comes two days after the premiere of netflix is

dirty daddy, the bob saget tribute which features bob's family a long-term friends. >> he made people laugh. he made people feel loved. he made people money. bob, i love you so much. god gave me the brother that i never had. >> he was found dead in an orlando hotel room. >> now to rewatch it, it brings up all of these emotions. i am laughing even more. to me the show includes never before seen footage of a private memorial held for saget. >> he is a very special individual. the wind is out of my sails. >> attribute and the latest award will help the family

celebrate and share the legacy of lots of laughter. >> he deserves it. he was the greatest man that i ever met in my life. >> kelly says that it carries a special meeting because it acknowledges the awareness that he raised for the auto immune disorder. the proceeds were donated to the research foundation. we know that is what bob saget would've wanted. >> there are a lot of big names there. the summer weather is heating up. a growing concern as more people head to the polls, had to be just be what you need to know this morning about a nationwide lifeguard shortage. plus the well wishes pouring in for toby keith. he resealed his month-long cancer battle.

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although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. we are back, 7:41. >> this year, a shortage of lifeguards. how can you make sure that your family is protected in the water? kerry sanders is at a beach in

florida. >> reporter: here in florida, they have professional year- round lifeguards. they will be on duty here real soon. and most of the country, as you pointed out, there is a shortage. especially in areas where there is seasonal swimming things. like going to the beach, going to the pool. a very ineffective day at the beach, absent of a lifeguard, it can also be dangerous. as summer heats up, some families are cooling down in the water at their own risk. a major lifeguard shortage is leaving many pools unguarded as they are understaffed and it is forcing some to close. the american lifeguard association estimates that one third of the public pools are impacted. >> most locations have it free for kids. that is a risk. >> reporter: swimming unsupervised can be dangerous.

in massachusetts on saturday they saw a man struggling. they performed cpr until first responders arrived. police said, there were no lifeguards in nearby. it is a nationwide problem. in new jersey they are planning to hire lifeguards all the way to austin texas. they're trying to fill the 750 public lifeguard positions. >> outside it is hot, you can just chill out in the pool. >> reporter: the shortages caught by a wave of factors. many people have many other job offers to choose from. training courses were closed during the pandemic. this morning, nbc news reports. an investigation into the

january 6th attack. day two of the unprecedented congressional hearing. the committee is promising more testimony from president trump's inner circle. they try to prove that the former president was responsible for the assault on the capital. >> president trump summoned the mob, assembled the mom. new evidence will be revealed today as the january 6th committee makes its case to the american people. here now is lester holt. >> good morning, everyone. it is day two of the historic hearing. we have been promised new evidence and new never before seen testimony today. as the committee lays out their investigation of and who is to blame in the january 6th attack. this is not a criminal

proceeding. they are building a case against president trump. they claim that his actions in the lead up to the sixth and his inaction on the day himself is responsible for the mob overthrowing capitol police and storming the halls of congress. they will demonstrate how in the days and weeks before it, president trump spread the lie that the election was stolen. it led to the assault on the capital. we will hear from advisers close to the president about what happened between election day in november and that fateful day in january. just a short time ago, we learned that one key adviser will not be there this morning. the 2020 campaign manager pulled out of the hearings because his wife went into labor. he had been subpoenaed to testify today. we will see part of the previously reported testimony instead.

the committee has been investigating the attack on the capital for almost one year right now. they have interviewed 1000 people and issued over 100 subpoenas. we will stress this now and again it is important to know that this is not a legal proceeding. no one is standing trial. if you watched the thursday night hearing, there was no mistaking that one man is the focus of the investigation. donald trump and his part that he remains to this day, without evidence, that the election was stolen. he and his allies also accuse the committee of being a partisan witch hunt. let's start now with senior capitol hill correspondent garrett hill just outside the capital. they are going to rework the program for today. garrett. >> reporter: that is right, lester. he is not able to testify in

person. the committee has to scramble. they will instead make use of the video testimony that he committed with the -- it does not have the same punch as live testimony, the same facts will be -- the fox news political editor on election day. these two witnesses show that donald trump knew, even then that he lost the election. lester. >> let's go inside. >> it is unprecedented in american history. my colleagues and i do not want to run time talking about ourselves during these hearings. as someone who has run for office a few times, i can tell you, that with the campaign it all comes down to numbers. the numbers tell you the winner and a loser. for the most part, the numbers do not lie.

if something does not add up with the numbers you go to court to get resolution. that is the end of the line. we accept those results. that is what it means to respect the rule of law. that is what it means to seek elective office in our democracy. because those numbers are not just numbers. they are votes. they are your votes. they are the will and the voice of the people. at the very least, we we of the people. win ordid have the numbers. he went to court. he still did not have the numbers. he lost. but he betrayed the trust of the american people. he ignored the will of the voters. he lied to his supporters and to the country and he tried to

remain in office after the people voted him out. the courts upheld the will of the people. this morning, we will tell the story of how donald trump lost the election and he knew that he lost the election and as a result of his loss, he decided to rage -- wage and attack by trying to rob you of your voice in our democracy. in doing so, lit the fuse that led to the horrific violence of january 6 when a mob of his supporters stormed the capital, send by donald trump. to stop the transfer of power. today, my colleagues in california and our witnesses will detail the select committee's findings on these matters. first, i will recognize our distingu for any statements that she

offer. >> thank you, last week, our committee outlined a seven part plan overseen by donald trump to change the 2020 election. we will look at the initial part of that plan. president trump's effort to convince millions of americans that the election was stolen by overwhelming fraud. the federal court has already reviewed elements of the committee evidence on this point. they have said this, quote, in the months following the election, numerous credible sources from the president's inner circle and agency leadership and statisticians informed dog -- donald trump that there was no evidence of election fraud. the court's opinion methodically documents each of the principal reasons for that

conclusion. i ordered all of those watching to read it. today we will begin to show the american people some of our evidence. today you will hear much more from the former attorney general's recorded testimony. atothers in the department told president trump. iclaims that there was election fraud. you will hear more from president trump's campaign expert that concluded that the fraud claims could not be supported. let me focus briefly on three points now. first, you will hear first-hand testimony that the president's campaign advisers urged him to await the counting of votes and not to declare victory on election night. the president understood even before the election that many more biting of voters voted by mail. president trump ignored the advice of his campaign experts

and told his supporters to vote in person. he knew before the election that the counting of those mail- in ballot in several states would not begin until later in the day and would not be complete for multiple days. this is expected, recorded, and widely known. you also hear testimony that president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night. and instead followed the courts recommended. to just claim that he won. and insist that the vote counting stops. he told the american people that it was not legitimate. in his words, a major fraud. millions of americans believe him. second, pay attention to what donald trump and his legal team said repeatedly. far-flung conspiracies saying

that venezuelan communists were pulling the strings. this is complete nonsense. president trump's own campaign advisers and his security experts all told him the same thing. here, for example, his white house lawyer -- >> i never saw any evidence whatsoever to support this. >> third, as mike pence is staff got a taste of what he had planned for january 6. he called campaign experts to give them a briefing on election fraud. on january 2nd, the general counsel of the trump campaign,

matthew morgan, the chief lawyer, summarized what the campaign summarized weeks earlier. none of the arguments about fraud could change the outcome of the election. >> it is whether the fraud or abuse or irregularity, if aggravated to the campaign, would that outcome be determined? i think that the assessment in the room was that it was not positioned to have the outcome determined. maybe this was the attack on the capital. they knew that there was no legitimate argument.

president trump went ahead with his plans for january 6th anyways. >> mr. chairman, hundreds of the countrymen have faced criminal charges. many of them are serving criminal sentences because they believed what donald trump said about the election and they acted on it.shington, d.c. at his request. they marched on the capital at his request. hundreds of them invaded the building at the heart of our constitutional republic. one of the editorial boards recently, he betrayed his supporters by conning them on january 6. he is still doing it. another editorial board that has long supported president trump said last week that donald trump will not stop insisting that the 2020 election was stolen.

even though he has offered no proof that is true. donald trump now clings to more fantastical series such as -- as recounts in arizona and georgia and wisconsin confirmed that trump lost. those are the correct conclusions to draw from the evidence gathered by this committee. we have much more evidence to show the american people on this point then we can reasonably show in one hearing. today we will begin. thank you, mr. chairman. >> without objection. the chair recogniz >> thank you, mr. chairman. we gave an overview of our investigations into the january 6th attack. the plot to overthrow the election was complex and had

many parts which we will explore in the remaining hearing. today, we examine the false narrative that the 2020 election was fraudulent. president trump's plan to overthrow the election relied on a sustained effort to deceive millions of americans with false claims of election fraud. all elements of a plot to convince his supporters about these false claims. today, we will demonstrate the 2020 election was not stolen. the american people elected joe biden. we will present evidence that mr. trump claims that there is election fraud or false. he knew those claims were false. they continue to claim them anyways. right up until the moment that a mob of trump supporters attacked the capital. we will also show that the trump campaign used these false claims of election fraud to raise hundreds of millions of

dollars from supporters who were told that their donations were for the legal fight in the courts for the trump campaign did not use the money for that. the big lie was also a big ripoff. the former president laid the groundwork for these false claims well in advance to the election. he claims that the only way he could lose an election would be as a result of fraud. >> all of the things that are happening with votes by mail where thousands of votes are gathered and i am not going to say which party does it. thousands of votes are gathered. they are dumped in a location and then all of the sudden you lose elections i you think you can win. the only way we can lose this election is if the election is red. the only way we will lose this election. it will be fraud like you have

never seen. take a look at west virginia. they are being sold and dumped in rivers. this is a horrible thing for our country. this is not going to end well. >> mr. trump decided before the election that regardless of the facts or the truth, if you lost the election, he would claim that it was rigged. mr. trump was right about one thing, it did not end well. claimed even before the votes were counted that his loss was a result of fraud. now thursday, we had testimony from attorney general barr thursday we had testimony from attorney general barr. about the investigation of mr. trump's claims. barr told trump directly that his claims were the yes. after hearing the truth and that warning from the ag, mr. trump continue to peddle the false claim of fraud. you will hear detailed

testimony from attorney general barr describing the fraud claims that the department of justice investigated. he will tell you how he told mr. trump repeatedly that there is no merit to those claims. mr. barr will tell us that mr. trump's election night claims of fraud are made without regard to the truth and before it was possible to look for evidence of fraud. attorney general barr was not alone. you will see and hear other department of justice officials and senior advisers to mr. trump that they told him the claims that he was making were not supported by evidence. the election fraud claims were false. mr. trump's closest advisors knew it. mr. trump knew it. that did not stop him from pushing the false claim and urging his supporters to quote, fight like to take back their country. after he lost the election,

serious legal challenges were made. we will hear testimony today of republican election litigation lawyer who explains the normal process by which candidates challenge an election. rather than accept the results of the election and the decision of the court, mr. trump pursued a different strategy. he tried to convince the american people that the election had been stolen. many of his supporters believed him and many still believe him today. the attacks on january 6th were an attack and predictable result of mr. trump's decision to use false claims of election fraud to overturn the election and to claim the power. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you very much. i welcome our first witness. we are joined today by former fox news political editor.

bill stepped in, president trump's former campaign manager was subpoenaed to be here and was in washington this morning prepared to testify. chairman marino, his attorney, is here with us today. thank you mr. marino for coming. he has advised us that mr. step ian's wife went into labor this morning. he unexpectedly had to travel to be with his wife and we wish him the best. >> due to the depth and rigor of our investigation with several hours of testimony from when we interviewed him in february, we will be presenting that testimony today. i will now swear in our witness. the witness will you please stand and raise his right hand. >> do you swear and affirm

under the of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god thank you. you may be seated. let the record reflect that the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself or questions. i want to start by showing a video that tells the story of what was going on in the trump white house on election night in november 2020. >> do you remember where you were the night of the election on november 3rd? >> i was at the white house. >> where specifically over the course of the night did you spend your time? >> there was an event that was organized and i moved between the residence room off of the

residence where family members were -- >> -- was upstairs? >> he was upstairs. we were on the first floor mostly with -- >> can you describe the atmosphere? what were people expecting that night? >> i think that there was, at least for people that showed up on election night there was a self select more positive environment. i think people were nervous not knowing what was going to happen as the debate was being carried out. >> the decision desk is calling arizona for joe biden. that is a big gap for the biden campaign. >> arizona was called. do remember that? what do remember happening when

arizona was called? >> there was surprise. >> who was surprised? >> most everyone in the room . >> you being one of them? >> yes. >> did that shift the atmosphere and the attitude in the white house? >> yes . >> how so? >> fox news was the first one to go out and say that. >> was their anger directed towards fox news for making that call more so than disappointed that the campaign lost arizona? >> all of the above. >> -- and disappointment. >> -- and concern that maybe our data and our numbers were not accurate. >> were you in the white house

residence past midnight into the early morning hours of november 4th? >> yes. it went well beyond midnight. >> you remember rudy giuliani being at the white house on election night and into the early morning hours the next morning? >> i do . >> what you remember about when he came? >> he was -- i had heard that he was upstairs in a aforementioned reception area. he was looking to talk to the president. it was suggested that he come talk to several of us . >> you said that you heard mr. giuliani wanted to talk to the

president and he was directed your way. did you talk to mr. giuliani? >> i did. >> what was that conversation? >> a lot of conversations were direct my way. a few of us, myself, jason miller, justin clark, mark meadows gathered in a room to listen to whatever rudy presumably wanted to say to the president . >> was there anyone and that conversation who in your observation had too much to drink? >> rudy giuliani. >> tell me more about that. what was your observation about his potential intoxication during that discussion about what the president should say when he addresses the nation on election night. >> he was definitely intoxicated, but i do not know if his level of toxic asian when he spoke with the

president, for example . >> did you have any discussion with the people that i mentioned about whether the president should make any sort of speech tonight? >> i spoke to the president. they may have been present, i spoke to the president several times that night. >> there is a suggestion by, i believe it was mayor giuliani to declare victory. >> it was far too early to make any call like that. ballots were still being counted, ballots were still going to be counted for days. it was far too early to make any -- >> i remember saying that we should not declare victory

until we have a better sense of the numbers . >> can you be more specific about that conversation, in particular what mayor giuliani said and your response and anyone else in the room's response . >> i think mayor giuliani was saying we want it, they are stealing it from us, we need to say that we won and potentially anyone who did not agree with that position is weak . >> what was your view at the time? >> i don't know if i had a firm view as to what he should say in that circumstance. the results were still being counted. it was becoming clear that the race would not be called on

election night. >> my belief, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted. it is too early to tell, too early to call the race. we are proud of the race that we ran and we think we are in good position. we will have more to say about this the next day or whatever. >> did anybody who was a part of the conversation did not agree with your methods? >> yes . >> who was that? >> the president disagreed. i do not recall the particular words. he thought i was wrong and he told me so. they were going to -- go in a

different direction. >> this is a fraud on the american public. this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election, frankly, we did win this election. >> did president trump had have any basis to declare victory on november 420 20? thank you. mr. stepien also testified that president trump had no basis for declaring victory at that point in time. >> my belief, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted, it was too early to tell, too early to

call the race. we are proud of the race that we ran. we think we are in a good position. we will have more to say about this the next day, or the next day whenever we had something to say. >> thank you. >> after the votes were counted, who won the presidential election of 2020? >> joseph biden junior of the great state of delaware. that's the bottom line. we had an election, mr. trump lost and he refused to accept the results of the democratic process. pursuant to section 5c8 of house resolution 503, i

recognize the gentleman from california ms. lafgren for questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i would like you to explain a term that was thrown around a lot during the election that was the so-called red mirage. what does that mean? say, that americans have let's increasingly decided to vote by mail early republicans. basically every election republicans win election day and democrats win the early vote. then you wait and start counting. it is usually the election day votes that get counted first and you see republican shoot ahead and the process of bailing and binding and unbinding all of those votes,

some cases like pennsylvania refused to count the votes first and you have to wait for all of that to come in. and every election and certainly a national election you expect to see a republican with a lead, but it is not a lead. when you put together a jigsaw puzzle it does not matter what piece you put in first it ends up with the same image. for us, who cares? that is because no candidate had ever tried to avail themselves of this work in the election counting system. we have gone to pains, and i am proud of the pains that we went to to make sure that we were informing viewers this would happen. the trump campaign at the president made it clear that they were going to exploit this. we knew it would be bigger because the percentage of early votes was higher. we went about 25% of votes being early because of the pandemic that increased 50%. we knew it would be longer and more. we wanted to tell viewers, the number that you see here is

irrelevant because it is a small percentage of the votes. >> this red mirage is what you expected to happen on election night? >> it happens every time. >> thank you. i would like to play a clip of attorney general bill barr who also explained what was expected to happen on election night. >> right out of the box on election night, the president claimed that there was major fraud under way. this happened, as far as i could tell, before there was any --. it seemed to be based on the dynamic that at the end of the evening a lot of democratic votes came in which changed the vote count and that seem to be the basis for this claim that it was fraud. -- people had been talking for

weeks on what happened on election night. night. >> mr. stepien, obviously, could not be with us today and it's proper for him to be with his wife as they welcome their child. but he also had discussions with the president about the red >> -- about the red mirage, that means it would be a long night and early votes would favor him and a lot more votes would be counted over the course of the night and days after. let's play clip one from our interview with mr. stepien. >> i recounted back to that conversation with him in which i said it is going to be a long night. i told him in 2020 that it was going to be a process, again, as early returns are going to

be -- and we will be watching the returns of ballots as they rode world in. >> is it fair to say that you thought would be a realistic picture of what might happen over the course of election night. >> that night and the days that followed. i always told the president the truth. i think he expected that from me. i told him it was going to be a process. we were going to have to wait and see how it turned out. just like i did in 2016, i did the same thing in 2020. >> let's watch a short clip of president trump speaking after he received that information from his campaign advisors.

>> we all want the voting to stop, we do not want them to find in the ballots at 4:00 in the morning and add them to the list. >> when former president trump said that, he contradicted what his advisers warned would happen. we all know mail-in ballots played an important role in the 2020 elections. however, president trump continuously discouraged mail- in voting. mr. stepien was so concerned about the president position on mail-in voting. in the summer of 2020 he met with president trump, along with house minority leader kevin mccarthy. let's play clip number four. >> -- that was had, in particular, i invited kevin mccarthy to join the meeting. he was of like mind of the

issue with me. we made our case for why we believe mail-in voting is not to be a bad thing for his campaign. the presidents mind was made up. he understands how many times to go to the well on a particular topic. >> tell me more about the argument that you and mr. mccarthy made to the president in that meeting. >> largely two pillars to that argument for both of which i previously mentioned, one, leaving a big deal to chance,

purging your voters to vote only on election day leaves a lot to chance. and b, i also previously mentioned the fact that the trump campaign and the national committee and republican party had the advantage of grassroots workers and volunteers on the ground that would allow an advantage to enhance return rates. those were the two pillars of the argument. >> was there anything that you would call repetitive mccarthy saying during that meeting? >> we were echoing the same argument. his words echoed mine and vice versa on those topics. >> you were asked on the decision desk on fox news on election night and you called

arizona early for president ere do you think the race stood in the eay hours? >> it was controversial to our competitors who we beat so badly by making the correct call first. our decision was to be the best in the business. because we partnered with the associated press and national opinion research center at the university of chicago, thanks to my colleague and friends in michigan, we built a wonderful device for forecasting the outcomes of elections. we had a different set of data. we had more research and a great team. what you are waiting to see is do the actual votes matchup with the expectations in the poll? the real votes are testing the quality of the pool in targeted precincts and places. our poll in arizona was beautiful and it was doing what

we wanted it to do and it was cooking up just right. at some point, i forget exactly who, at some point it became clear that arizona was getting ready to make a call. my boss said we are not making any call until everybody says yes because that was our policy. you have to understand in this room you have the best, people from academia, democrats, republicans, a broad cross- section of people who worked together for a decade and were really serious about this. we knew it would be a consequential call because it was one that mattered. we knew it was going to be significant to call any one of the five. we knew trump's chances were small and getting smaller based on what we had seen. we were able to make the call early. we were able to beat the competition. we looked around the room,

everyone said yay and on we go. by the time we find out how much everyone was freaking out, we were trying to call the next date. we were in georgia and north carolina, we were looking at other states. we thought -- we were pleased but not surprised. >> after the election on november 7th, in your judgment, what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> after that point? >> yes. >> not. it is always possible that you could have a truckload of ballots be found somewhere. once you get into this space, ahead of today i thought about what are the largest margins that could ever be overturned by a recount? the kind of stuff we heard mike pence talking about sounding like a normal republican thing we will keep every challenge,

in a recount you're talking about hundreds of votes. when we think about calling a race, one thing that we think about is, is it outside the margin of a recount. when we think about that margin, you're talking about 1000 votes, 1500 votes at the way outside. normally you are talking hundreds of votes, maybe 300 votes that will change. the idea that through any normal process, remember he had to do it thrice. he needed three states to change. in order to do that, you are better off to play powerball than to have that comment. >> on november 7th the other major news outlets called the race for president biden. mr. stepien told the committee he thought the odds were very, very bleak and held a meeting with the president that same day.

let's show video clip eight. >> each day the war on, the trajectory of the race on election night, with trump ahead in many states, as that war on as the third became the fourth and became the fifth and so on and so forth and the vote by mail ballots were tabulated, trump's lead grew more narrow and in some places biden surpassed trump in vote totals. as the week wore on, we paid attention to those numbers multiple times a day, internally, i was feeling less confident. >> what was your view on the state of the election at that point? >> very, very bleak. we told him, the group that

went over there outlined my belief in chance for success at this point and we said five maybe 10% based on recount that were higher and automatically initiated or could be initiated based on realistic legal challenges, not all the legal challenges that eventually were pursued. my belief was 5-10% was not a very good outlook. >> as president trump and others continue to claim that the election was stolen, there were lawyers who were part of the campaign, campaign lawyers, who were responsible for investigating the fraud claims

that includes alice cannon who could not validate the claims that were being made, including those being made by the president. role video 13. >> this is an email, two emails. the first is from alex cannon to you and dave mcpherson. you forwarded that to mark meadows, justin clark and jason miller. if you look at the original email it says the bill will be completed -- i assume that is about arizona. because of the substantial uncertainty surrounding the database, this is a highly unreliable way to identify intelligible voters. can you explain the tasks that you gave for this arizona analysis? >> previously i described some

of my frustration with some of the claims that people would throw at president trump regarding you need to look at this, this happened in the state that happened in that state. those were things for us to look into. this is an example of that. i recall in arizona, someone had thrown out, i believe it was a claim that there were thousands of illegal citizens, people not eligible to vote trying to cast ballots. someone had thrown out that claim to president trump. with the margins being as close as they were, that could

potentially matter. this wild claim is thrown out, which on its face did not seem realistic or possible to me. i asked alan to look at the claim. i have not read the email, but i recall the response to that, the reality of that was not illegal citizens, it was like overseas voters. >> when these findings were passed up the chain to president trump, he became frustrated and he replaced the campaign's legal team. let's play clip 14. >> i think the president, it was during the second week

where the president was growing increasingly unhappy with how his team, me, less so because i was less involved at this point, but still growing increasingly unhappy with justin clark and that paved the way for justin to -- and move in. for all intents and purposes --. >> when mr. stepien became campaign manager, he was the second trump campaign manager for the 2020 race. they were only about 115 days until election day. let's play the video. >> i inherited a campaign, the

day i was hired, i think it was president trump's low point in the 2020 daily efforts pulling against president biden. there was a campaign that was at the low point. it was structurally and physically positioned. there was a great deal wrong with the campaign in both of those areas. most of my day was spent fixing, i think i took over with 115 days left. most of my time was spent fixing the things that could be fixed with 115 days left. >> mr. stepien has been in the campaign field for a long time. he worked for a lot of different candidates.

he testified to this committee about his concerns given the claim that mr. giuliani and ms. powell, and their team were making publicly. let's play clip 15. >> it was important for you, mr. stepien, just to pull back for your own professional education. he did not want to be affiliated with what -- in the wake of your departure >> there were two groups we called them my team and rudy's team. i did not mind being characterized as part of team normal as reporter started to do at that point time. i said hours ago, early on, i had been doing this for a long time, 25 years. i have political ideologies

from trump, mccain, bush, christie, i can work under a lot of circumstances for a lot of varied candidates and politicians. the situation -- i think along the way i built up pretty good reputation for being honest and professional. i just think what was happening was not professional at that point in time. >> the president did get rid of team normal. i would like to show a clip that the president found the people he needed to perpetuate his claims of fraud. >> they saw a big truck bringing in 100,000 ballots in garbage cans and waste paper baskets, in cardboard boxes and

in shopping baskets. every single one was for biden. they would be notified by -- in frankfurt. biden was way behind and they had better come up with a lot more ballots and we can prove everything i just said. >> if you gave me the paper ballots i could probably turn around each one of these states. i am convinced, if you let me examine each pallet i would pull out the ones that are fraudulent and it would shake the out of the country . >> an algorithm that ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from president trump and flip them to president biden, which we might not have uncovered had the votes for president trump not been so overwhelming in so many states that it broke the algorithm. >> i remember one thing that

mark said at some point is you can't show an actual vote has flipped. which i found at the time to be a remarkable assertion. because you do not have to have the gun to see the body lying on the floor bleeding out with five bullet holes in it. >> what they were proposing i thought was nuts. the theory was also completely nuts. it was a combination of italians and germans, different things floating around as to who was involved. an affidavit from somebody said they wrote a software, it was just all over the radar. >> did you ever share your view of mr. giuliani and your perspective of him with the

president? >> i guess yes. >> tell me what you said. >> basically not the approach i would take. >> how did president trump react when you shared that view? >> he said i have confidence in rudy . >> i think i had conversations with -- to assist on election day as they disengaged with the campaign. the general consensus was that law firms were not comfortable making the argument that rudy giuliani was --. i recall i had a similar conversation with most all of them . >> i made it clear that i did

not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out the stuff which i told the president was bullish it. i did not want to be a part of it. that is part of the reasons why i decided to leave when i did. >> even sidney powell, defending herself in a defamation lawsuit brought by dominion voting systems argued that quote, no reasonable can person would conclude that her statements were true statements of fact. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i think the witness for joining us today. the first panel is now dismissed. >> the chair recognizes the

gentleman from california ms. chun -- lafgren. >> last week we presented the testimony of former attorney general bill barr, who testified before this committee. today, we present additional evidence, including his testimony that former president trump started making claims of election fraud immediately after the election and that hour concluded the claims were untrue. due to the length of attorney general barr testimony i'm only going to include relevant portions today. let's play the video. >> the department, in fact, received this credible allegations of fraud and made an effort to look into this to satisfy ourselves that they were without merit. i was in the posture of trying

to figure out >> announcer: it was an avalanche of allegations of fraud that built up over a number of days. it was like playing whack a mole because it is one thing one day and the next day another. -- tackled the early claims that i understood -- >> for the first time since the election, the attorney general spoke personal with the president on november 23rd. this was at the white house. >> on november 23rd, i had not spoken to the president since the election, in fact since the middle of october, roughly.

it was getting awkward because obviously he had lost the election and i had not said anything to him. i said i think it's time you come over here. i came over to meet with the president in the oval office and meadows and -- were there. i guess leading up to this conversation with kushner. the president said there was major fraud and as soon as the facts were out, the results of the reelection -- election would be reversed. he went on about this for quite a while, as he was prone to to do. then he got to something i was expecting which is to say, apparently the department of justice does not think it has the rule of looking into the fraud claims. that has to be raised with the

state. the department cannot take sides in elections. the department is not an extension of your legal team. our role is to investigate fraud. if we look at something and it is credible and affects the outcome of the election and we are doing that, it is just not meritorious, it is not panning out. as i walked out of the oval office, jared was there with -- who ran the president social media and was a reasonable guy. i said, how long is he going to carry on with the stolen election stuff? >> i that time, mark meadows had caught up with me leaving the office and caught up with me and he said that, he said,

look, i think he is becoming more realistic and knows there is a limit to how far he can take this. jared said we are working on this. >> even after his attorney general told him claims of election fraud were false, president trump continue to promote these claims. >> i felt things continue to deteriorate between the 23rd in the week of the 29th. on november 29th he appeared on -- show, sunday futures, i believe it was. he said the department was missing in action. >> we have glitches where they move thousands of votes from my account to biden's account. these are not glitches, they are theft. they are fraud. this election was over. then they did dumps, they call

them dumps, big massive dumps in michigan and pennsylvania. all over. how the fbi and the department of justice, maybe they are involved, how people are allowed to get away with this is unbelievable. >> surrendered spurred by what he saw, barr told the associated press that there was no evidence of election fraud and immediately after attorney general barr statement went public. barr assisted a telling evidence president that there was no evidence supporting fraud claims. >> this got under my skin that i also felt it was time to say something. i set up a lunch with the ap reporter and i told him at

lunch, that to date we have not seen -- on the scale that affected a different outcome in the election. i had a leader meeting scheduled at the white house at 3:00 with meadows. this was previously scheduled. i knew that this was going to come up and i went over there and i told my secretary i would probably be fired and told him not to go home, you may have to pack up for me. i met with the chief of staff. he said the president was angry. he did not get into the issue of fraud. then i went up to -- office and we were talking with each other and word came down that he wanted us both to go to the oval. he was as mad as i had ever seen him and he was trying to

control himself. the president said this is killing me. you didn't have to say this and you must've said this because you hate trump. then he raised the big vote dump as he called it. people saw boxes coming in to the station coming in at all hours of the morning. i explained to him that at that point i knew the exact number it was 630 something. i said, mr. president, there are 630 precincts in detroit and they centralized the counting process so they are not counting in each precinct they are moving to counting stations. the normal process would involve boxes coming in at all different hours. i said to anyone point out to you that you did better in detroit then you did last time? there is no indication of fraud

in detroit. i told him the stuff that his people were shoveling to the public were both shipped -- >> i reiterated that they wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. i specifically raised the dominion voting machines which i account to be the most disturbing allegations. disturbing in the sense that i saw zero basis for the allegations. they were made in a sensational way that they were influencing a lot of people and members of the public that there was this systemic corruption and that their votes did not count and these machines controlled by somebody else was determining

it, which was complete nonsense. i told them it was crazy stuff and they were wasting their time. they were doing a great disservice to the country. >> the very next day him at the president released a video rehashing some of the same claims that his chief law enforcement officer had told him were quote, nonsense. >> here is an example, this is michigan. at 6:31 in the morning, a dump of 149,000, 772 votes came in unexpectedly. we were winning by a lot. that batch was received in horror. we have a company that is very

suspect, it's name is dominion. with the turn of a dial or change of a chip, you could press the button for trump and the vote goes to biden. what kind of a system is this? >> barr then again told the president that there was nothing to these claims on december 14. >> when i walked in and sat down, he went off on a monologue saying that there was definitive evidence involving fraud through the dominion machines and a report had been prepared by very reputable cyber security firm which was identified as -- group. he asked that a copy of it be made for me.

while a copy was being made he said this is absolute proof that the machines were rigged it means that we will have a second term. as he talked more and more about it, i set there flipping through the report and looking through it. to be frank it looked very amateur to me. did not have credentials of the people involved. the statements were made very conclusory like. these are designed in -- i did not see any supporting information for it. i was somewhat demoralized. i thought if he really believes the stuff he has lost contact and he becomes detached from

reality. on the other hand, when i went into this and would tell him how crazy some of these allegations were, it was never indication of interest in what the actual facts were. my opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud. i have not seen anything since that changes my mind including the 2000 -- movie. >> maybe you can assess that people were talking about that. >> just in a nutshell, the gbi was unimpressed and i was similarly unimpressed. i was holding my fire on that to see with the photographic

evidence was. they had a lot of photographs of the same person dumping a lot of ballots in different boxes, that is hard to explain. i wanted to see what the photographic evidence was. the cell phone data is singularly unimpressive. if you take 2 million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like atlanta or whatever, just by definition you're going to find hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes. the premise that if you go get five boxes, it is indefensible. by definition you will have hundreds. one contractor said we figured out our truck alone accounts for six cell phone signals.

i also had a contractor and our room would take us by these things on a regular basis. when the movie came out and i saw the graphic evidence and it was completely -- there was a little bit but it was lacking. it did not establish widespread. the other thing is people don't understand that it is not clear even if you can show harvesting that changes the results of the election. it is not going to throw out votes in the figure out what were harvested. it is a challenging party to show illegal votes were cast. there was no vote for undo influence or bribes.

absent that evidence i just did not see the courts throwing that out. i felt that before the election it was possible to talk sense to the president. while you sometimes have to engage in a wrestling match with him, it is possible to keep things on track. i felt that after the election he did not seem to be listening, i was inclined not to stay around if he wasn't listening to advice from me or has other cabinet secretaries. >> on december 14 barr quits. the attorney general was not the only person who told the president that his claims were false. other officials and close advisors told him the same thing. >> other than -- let me just

say there were instances where the president would say people are telling me this or i heard this or i saw on television -- in pennsylvania. we were in position to say. people have looked at that and it's not correct. >> a month and a half or so after election day, at that meeting there were various allegations of fraud as we discussed and eric and pat did not -- the president included said, none of those obligation

have been substantiated so they could be the basis of any investigation. >> president trump's on vice president and top advisors also knew that there was no evidence to support the claims that the president was making. >> anyone else besides mark meadows who asked about the status of -- and asked the status of what you are finding. >> yes, sir. >> who was that? >> peter navaro . >> when did you talk to him? >> mid november. >> around the same time as mr. meadows? >> yes, sir . >> tell me about that

conversation. >> i recall him asking questions about dominion and maybe some other categories and allegations of voter fraud. i remember telling him that i did not believe the dominion allegations because i thought that hand recount in georgia would resolve any issues with the technology problem and that the dominion or dominion flipping votes. i mentioned at that time that -- released a report saying that the election was secure. i do believe esther navarro accused me of being a agent of the deep state and against the president and i never took another phone call at from mr. navarro. >> anyone else that you had

discussions with inquired about what you are finding in your review of the allegations that were pouring in? >> i believe i had a 15 second conversation with the vice president about it . >> when was that? >> during one of the visits at the white house. i don't know which one. i think it was the first one in november. i had met him briefly at the campaign. he remembered me and saw me. he asked what i was doing on the campaign. i told him that we were looking into some of the issues related to voter fraud. he asked me, i don't remember his exact words, he asked if we were finding anything.

i said i did not believe -- or i was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election. he thanked me. that was our interaction. >> at a later hearing, we will here live testimony from the former acting attorney general --. for now i would like to play a portion of his testimony. >> i tried to, again, put this into perspective and put it in very clear terms for the president. i said something to the effect of, sir, we have done dozens of investigations and hundreds of interviews, the major allegations are not supported. we looked at georgia, pennsylvania, michigan and nevada, we are doing our job. much of the info we are getting is false. then i went into for instance,

this report from michigan has a 68% error rate. reality is only 0.6 error rate. one in 15,000. the president accepted that. he said okay, fine. what about the others? it gets back to the point that there were so many allegations. when you gave him a direct answer on one, he would not fight, he would just move to another. then i talked a little bit about the pennsylvania truck driver, this is another allegation that had come up. this claim was by a truck driver who believed, perhaps honestly, that he had transported an entire tractor- trailer truck full of pallets from new york to pennsylvania. this was, again out there in the public and discussed. i simply said, we looked at

that allegation, we looked at both ends, both the people who load the truck and unload the truck, the allegation was not supported by the evidence. again, he said, okay. mention that one. what about the others? and i said, okay, with regard to georgia. we looked at the tape. we interviewed the witnesses. there is no suitcase the president kept fix st. ing on this suitcase that supposedly had fraudulent ballots and rolled out from under the table. i said, no, sir, there is no suitcase, there is a real thin where they carry the ballots and that's just how they move ballots around that facility. there is nothing suspicious about that at all. i told him there was no multiple skinning of the balance.