it's just false. >> growing criticism from democrats and president biden needs to show some fight from abortions. >> we want the president to absolutely get in every corner and say what can we do to help. >> to guns. >> if you're angry today, i'm here to tell you be angry. i'm furious. >> to the economy. mr. biden says his options are limited and republicans are standing in the way. >> that is why my plan is not

finished and why the results aren't finished either. >> i'll talk to the secretary of commerce. the republicans leadership challenge. [ inaudible ] out of here. because he is not a republican. >> how much influence does former president trump still have on the gop? maryland's republican governor larry hogan joins me. pat cipollone will at the before the january 6th committee after cassidy hutchison's explosive appearance. >> make sure we don't go up to the capitol and we will get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that move happen. >> i'll talk to a committee member. elon musk says he wants out of the his deal to buy twitter over a dispute about spam accounts. >> he is just reaching out for something to blame but he has to pay. >> we will hear from kara swisher of a podcast.

join us for the following this morning on "meet the press." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." turn down the volume, if you will. mr. biden has not succeeded in being donald trump but many say he needs to show more passion and bang the table and raise the

volume. take some chances. challenge the boundaries. in other words meet the moment. . despite delivered the presidency he promised. he has been a grown-up. plays by the rules. some think plays by the rules too well. and he does try to work the republicans when he c though some things he shouldn't try so much. the democrats progressive base has always wanted more and mr. biden was never their first choice. white house hopefuls are quietly and not so quietly in some cases to have their moment if the president doesn't meet his. >> what we have is a massive human rights violation in our country and he is not responding to that level. >> many democrats plead for a fighter president biden is pointing out the limits of his power. >> i'm just stating a basic fundamental motion the fastest

way to restore roe is to pass a national law codified roe. >> after signing an executive order on access to abortion medication and contraception. >> biden to me just talking circles. >> biden was elected to restore competency and stability to washington after donald trump. but his job approval trails other recent presidents including trump at this point in the election cycle after a lingering pandemic chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan. failure to stem rising costs and

failure to pass voting rights legislation and a failure to substantially address climate change or immigration challenges. >> has the biden administration done a good job i urge all of you living in florida to join the fight or

join us in california where we still believe in freedom. >> illinois governor took a trip to new hampshire and had a fire response to last week's mass shooting. >> if you're angry today, i'm here to tell you be angry. i'm furious. >> biden who ran promising to be a transitional figure to a new generation. >> look. i view myself as a bridge not as anything else. >> is trying to tamp down speculation -- as voters elected him to be above the fray and he is not well suited for the current fight ahead. >> i think his energy matters. i want to see him out here fighting for these things and if he is, i'll support him. >> joining me is the congress secretary the former governor of rhode island, gina raimondo. what do you attribute to the

fact that three-quarters of the country feel the country is heading in the wrong direction? how much of it is economic in your view? >> i think quite a bit of it is economic and specifically i think it's inflation. i would say we have a strong economy. unemployment is down. we have recovered the jobs since lost in the pandemic. people's household balance sheets are strong. however when you go to the grocery store, prices are high. when you fill up your car at the tank, prices are high. and so consumers, americans are feeling that and i think that is largely the reason folks say, as you said, we are heading in the wrong direction. but i was just talking to a ceo of a big companywa do talking t people, what do you think about the economy? and he said, the economy is strong.

customers are buying. businesses are strong. people are adding jobs. she pointed out three things things and i've heard from others getting rid of the trump tariffs and boosting illegal immigration and energy policies. you would like to see the trump tariffs gotten rid of on household items. you're not the only one in the administration. why is this happening not yet? >> the president is in the process of making that decision. i want to say a couple of things

about this. we should be clear lifting tariffs would antiwouldn't do. lifting tariffs doesn't going to bring down top line inflation in a very significant way. what it will do, potentially, is help consumers on certain, as you say, household goods. so for that reason, given where inflation is, i think it could make sense to do it. but the president is being thoughtful about this, unlike president trump. those tariffs that he imposed made no sense. and so we are briefing him and i expect to make a decision shortly and if he decides to lift certain tariffs, it will be because he knows he has to think about doing everything he possibly can to provide any relief to consumers. but if you're going to do it in a thoughtful ray and strategic and most important to him and all of us is without hurting american workers and that is what we are trying to get done here. with respect to immigration, you

know, that is an issue for congress to take up and i think that, you know, it's a discussion that we should have. everybody knows, any economists -- >> single -- >> right now -- >> right now with our supply chain problems, with the labor pressure and all of this in many ways the inflationary pressure in many ways is the labor shortage at the other end of the scale, right? >> look a lot of ways, absolutely. it's a huge driver and increasing labor supply would certainly help. the other thing we need to do is get women back into the work force. you talk about single biggest issue. >> yeah. >> look at work force participation of women without a college degree. we have to be there for those women to get child care, to, you know, reproductive health is on everybody's mind. that is going to hurt the economy. child care, health care, skills,

train these women so that they are able to get jobs that are available today and be productive members of the work force. if you're serious about the labor shortage, lean in to making sure women can fully participate. >> the president posed a gas tax holiday. there are cricket in congress. what other ideas do you have to lower the price of gas? >> so that is one, and hopefully congress takes action. the other thing the president is working on is just increasing supply. you know, fundamentally, this inflation we are experiencing, whether it's gas or goods is being driven by a lack of supply. now some good news. right? you saw wholesale gas prices drop significantly recently. i think that is due to the increased supply. now we have to make sure consumers feel that at the pump. but the president is pushing producers, domestically and globally, to increase supply so

that consumers start to feel it at the pump. >> you brought up abortion rights. it's interesting. whether it's inflation, whether it's in abortion rights, or whether it's yet another gun massacre in illinois, there is a growing group of democrats that are frustrated, believe that the president isn't showing enough energy, isn't showing enough fight on any of these issues. is any of this criticism in your view justified? >> no, no. look. it's not about who is the best performer. this isn't about, you know, performative. this is about who is going to go to work every day and get the job done and deliver for women. i have to say on a personal level, i first fell in love with president biden when he was with the intern act and this is a guy who was devoted decades to work

to help women and he signed an executive order to -- >> what does that do other than tell everybody to follow the law? it looks like it's a glorified press release. >> well, you know, you put your finger on an issue. a lot of the things are coming the president's way, he doesn't have a silver bullet to solve. these issues have to be solved by congress or, in this case, the supreme court and congress, so he is doing what a good executive does, which is go to his team and say, give me every option, every tool in my tool box, and that is what this executive order does. he is pushing the limits of his authority to stand up for women who have had a right taken away. and that is what i -- look. i know people are frustrated. you know? folks are cranky with a lot of good reason, but we have to focus on who is going to work every day and solving these problems. not who uses the most fiery

language. it's who is going to stick up for women and deliver for them whether it's health care, reproductive rights or jobs or training or child care and that is president biden. >> secretary of state gina raimondo, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thanks, chuck. >> you got it. from one party's leadership challenge to another. the republican party is also facing one former president trump wields huge influence on republicans in congress and some have maintained independence from him and you're starting to see that spread. joining me is the republican governor of maryland, larry hogan. welcome back. >> good morning. >> you've been sort of alone on this for years saying the governors are pushing back and you're starting to see more evidence of that. what i want to start is overseas. is there anything to be learned by the party from what the conservatives did with their unpopular and controversial leader? >> i think maybe not getting away from what, you know, the

basic tenets of your party are and changing direction. i think he did some crazy things that didn't make the public very happy and he lost his position. >> why isn't the america's conservative party doing the same thing with their leader? >> well, i would argue that we are. it's just taking longer than it should. as you pointed out, i've been talking about this for years now. and i felt like i was on a life boat, you know, all by myself and but now we need a bigger boat because more people are speaking out. i was chairman of the national governors association and we were pushing back throughout covid. i've said that president trump's influence on the party was going to diminish overtime. it hasn't happened rapidly but it has diminished dramatically and only 34% of republican primary voters who want to see the president run again. >> you work with a lot of governors races around the country. governor kemp was able to push back a trump influence. but you look at what is

happening in arizona. there is a fight there. you look what is happening in maryland. you have a fight there. in michigan, there is no anti-trump candidate because of some really bad campaign tactics, if you will. >> right. >> you win some, you lose some. arizona and michigan are pretty tough ones to lose. no? >> i agree but it's an example of the fact that trump's influence is diminishing so i'm on the rga executive commit. five different governors where trump was attacking them -- i did events for brian kemp, a couple of my staffers were down working his campaign. kemp won. all of the incumbent governors that trump went after have won their primaries. yeah. national democrats are kind of colluding with trump -- >> i'm playing an ad now and ask you about. this is one running in maryland. >> dan cox, donald trump's hand-picked candidate for maryland governor. cox worked with trump trying to

prove the last election was a fraud. dan cox. too close to trump. too conservative for maryland. >> obviously, we know they are trying to say, look who is the more conservative guy and they are not pretending they like the candidate here. sometimes you see that in these subtle ads. but is this a donald trump problem or a democratic party aggressiveness? >> well, it's both. but i think this is a perfect example -- you know, the democratic party is talking about, you know, defending democracy but they are spending tens of millions of dollars to promote, you know, conspiracy theory believing, you know, this guy they are promoting with that ad took two bus loads of people to the capitol on january 6th and called mike pence a traitor. >> do you blame the democratic party pointing that out? >> the democratic party shouldn't try to promote conspiracy theorists. >> i agree but -- >> nobody is standsing up more

to donald trump than me. i'm going around the country and helping people trump is attacking and we are winning most of them. >> based on what you gleaned from the january 6th committee and what you've taken away, is this -- do you think he should be charged with a crime? >> i think that is for the justice department to decide because i think one thing the american people do want is to take the politics out of it and get to the facts of what happened. i think the committee has done us a service and bringing a lot of people forward that are finally talking and we have a lot more information than we did but something the justice department has to decide. look. a lot of people are now -- >> do you think the country can handle prosecuting a former president? >> yeah, i'm not sure they can but i think no man is above the law so if that is where the facts lead that is what has to happened. you know, a lot of people are talking about january 6th but i was actually taking action on january 6th. i sent the maryland state police, you know, riot police and the maryland national guard and the first to arrive to defend the leaders of congress and the vice president. >> i want to change subjects slightly on the issue of guns. your state, the supreme court

ruling on the new york law meant maryland's permit law, you were going to have to essentially allow it to happen. do you feel as if the supreme court has constrained your ability to fight guns? >> well, look. it doesn't do a whole lot. in maryland we have some of the toughest gun laws in the country but hasn't stopped the shootings. 99% of the gun crimes that take place are illegal guns and -- >> people -- they don't have the maryland laws, xrecket? >> well, they are ghost guns and people stealing -- trafficking in stolen guns. the violent crime problem is real and it doesn't have much to do with how you go with registration on concealed carry but the shooters, the repeat violent offenders they don't follow gun laws. >> i hear you. look at all of these mass shootings. >> yep. >> too of them. the gun was purchased legally, by the way. >> yeah. >> here you have states with red flag laws that can't be

implemented. is that the really the elixir? >> i signed a red flag law that works in m.d. so we aren't having some of those issues. i'm for universal background checks and reasonable restrictions but i've always supported the right of law asiding citizens to go through a process and bear arms but to do everything we can to take guns away from the mentally ill and criminals. and that is the problem in our state. our legislature keeps voting against penalties for people who shoot people with guns. >> do you the supreme court is too conservative, about right, or maybe too activist? >> i'm not sure whether they was activist or not and i'm not a constitutional scholar but i think they made decisions based on their interpretation of the law. i know people with inflate how this came about but i think the issues that haven't been heard before they found a legal reason for taking action. >> are you worried it's become politicized with the court? >> i'm worried the country is so

dramatically divided the and that some of these issues will continue to help us be divided but i think the vast majority of people are frustrated with the angry rhetoric on both sides. >> i know you're thinking about running for president. what would make you not run? >> i'll do the best job i can being governor until next january and i don't know what the future holds. i think an awful lot of people i would call exhaustive amount of americans are frustrated with the frar left and right and want us go in a different direction and i see something -- i think there is a growing demand for exactly what we have done in maryland the last eight years. >> do you think if donald trump runs would ever concede losing over a primary? >> i'm hopeful that donald trump won't be running and won't be the nominee if he does run. >> larry hogan, republican for maryland, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the white house counsel pat cipollone sat down with the january 6th committee last

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welcome back. the january 6th committee is planning two more hearings. pat cipollone testified before the committee for seven hours on president trump's efforts to overturn the election. this week's first hearing will focus on mr. trump's connections to various extremist groups involved in the attack. it is being led by democrats raskin and murphy. let me start with pat cipollone's testimony. was it as critical as you thought it would be? >> of course it was. he had relevant information about what was happening in the white house. and we are really grateful he was willing to come before the committee and share that with us. there were areas he claimed privilege, but it was important for us to understand what the president's top legal adviser

thought about the activities that were happening post-election and in the run-up to january 6th. >>n u give me a run-up of what he would not touch? >> he claimed privilege on conversations that related to the advice he provided directly to the president or conversations with the president. but i think we still got a lot of relevant information from him. and it provides us another perspective on what was happening in the white house in those weeks running up to january 6th that were so critically important. >> i have seen some reports. other fellow committee members said mr. cipollone did not contradict witnesses. did he confirm information that hushenson gave? >> we have different voices telling about the same meeting and, more or less, telling the same narrative. of course you have to understand these are all folks who have had a year plus since the events, so

everybody has a different level of memory or recall on specific details. but the overall message that we have been gathering out of all of these witnesses is that the president knew he had lost the election or that his avisors had told him he lost the election and he was casting a ballot more ways in which he could remain the president despite the fact that the democratic will of the american people was to have president biden be the next elected president. >> was it clear that the president was told his actions that he wanted to take were illegal? >> i think he was given the best possible advice by very talented legal folks, both from barr at the department of justice as well as within the white house in legal counsel. and they gave him very strong advice. what we were able to ascertain from those folks is what their activities were, what they said.

as you have seen in some of the hearings, they said in no unclear terms that these were things that -- these were lines that could not be crossed for the sake of democracy. >> can you confirm if he said we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable? that was a big, important moment in her testimony. were you able to have him confirm that that is a concern he had? >> we were able to get him to confirm the concerns that he did have. his reservations about some of the things that were happening. his desire not to be affiliated with, you know, some of the things. his desire to be on the record, have the -- >> with what? >> well, the speech. he didn't attend the speech. >> did he try to get language struck out of it? >> you know, not to get too much into details, i think for legal counsel, they participated and perform the role they have when speeches do come to them. >> the jeffrey clark scheme, it

was referred to that he called that a murder-suicide pact. were you able to get that? >> he made it clear that the eastman theory which was this idea that the vice president could somehow unilaterally declare the president the president-elect or that the pressure on the department of justice, he sided with the department of justice on their findings of no fraud in the election. he made very clear that he took the side of many folks you have already seen come before the there wasn't enough evidence to assume the electionfor democracy is to have a peaceful transfer of powe especially after december 14th when the states have certified their electors. >> one of the more striking responses to supposedly things

that mr. cipollone said was from jared kushner. i want to play it. >> i know that, you know, he was always -- him and the team were always saying, we're going to resign. we're not going to be here if this happens, if that happens. so i just took it up to just be whining, to be honest with you. >> number one, did mr. cipollone have any reaction that his threats to resignation were chalked up to whining? >> i think when you look at legal advice that's given -- because you have to understand. mr. cipollone wanted to see president trump succeed, so he was giving him the best legal advice he could to ensure his success. if he got to a place where he felt like he couldn't morally standby some sort of action, resigning isn't an act of whining. it is a ultimate protest that what -- that his advice was being ignored and what the president moved forward with was something he didn't want to be associated with.

i'm not sure i would have characterized it as whining. >> let's go to your hearing on tuesday. are we going to see much of mr. cipollone's testimony? >> we are always receiving new information from a lot of different sources, and we are trying to pull the information that the american people most need to hear. and i imagine you will be hearing things from mr. cipollone but also from others that were in the white house. the focus of this next hearing will be on the domestic violent extremists, as well as members of congress, people that the president called in to assist him in this pressure campaign. and this pressure campaign is a follow on to the previous hearings where we talked about how the president pressured the vice president, pressured the department of justice, pressured state election and electors to just call the race in his favor. and he, in the waning days leading up to the january 6th called in additional support. >> congressman raskin called it

convergence, these groups and what they were doing here. they wouldn't be here without the president wanting them here. but are you going to be able to provide evidence that's more than convergence, that there was an absolute understanding as to why the president invited them to washington. >> without spoiling anything that comes this week and encouraging folks to tune in to the specifics, what i will say is we will lay out the body of evidence that we have that talks about how the president's tweet on the wee hours of december 19th of be there, be wild was a siren call to these folks. and we'll talk in detail about what caused them to do, how that caused them to organize, as well as who else was amplifying that message. >> and you have evidence of specific members of congress were somehow involved in amplifying and encouraging these groups to come? >> yes. i think all of that is quite public. they were public about their efforts to amplify the

president's call to use january 6th as a last stand in this effort to remain as president. >> congresswoman murphy, appreciate you coming in. >> so great to be with you. >> all right. we'll be watching this week. thanks. when come back, [whistling] with technology that can scale across all your clouds... it's easier to do more innovative things. [whistling] what are you recommending

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welcome back. hallie jackson, mark leibovich and author. and danielle gibbs. since the first half of our show was about sort of the hand wringing going on inside the democratic party, danielle, i'll let you get first crack here which is what is the issue at the white house? are they not meeting the moment? are expectations too high on the left? what say you? >> maybe it is a little bit of both. look, it is a national past time here in d.c. to talk about democrats infighting, you know. i was using an apology last week. >> dems in disarray. >> that is totally a hashtag

thing in this town to say. we went out and bought a house and they're sitting outside arguing what color to paint it. meanwhile, the republican party is outside burning it down. what you need to be doing is focussed in laser beam on november. that is what is most important and maybe let the american people know there is a big choice. >> what are you hearing out of the white house? >> a couple things. there is -- i think there is a frustration, obviously. there is also a sense of like, listen, we are doing stuff. people just don't see it necessarily or people don't see how engaged the president is. it is not a shock to you, chuck, that that is what the president is saying. on the flip side, i was speaking with a democratic member of congress who said there is frustration. first you have front liners, the more moderate folks who feel like he has to be doing more on the economy. there is a sense that there is

an objectively good jobs report out on friday. he talked about it, yes. on the other side, you have the progressives saying abortions, guns, where are you on that. yes, he did that event this past week. but there is a sense i heard from people saying where was this the day the supreme court made the decision. why aren't you doing x, y and z? the white house said, listen, we're working on it. we have our legal team doing it. it is not like we're hearing these suggestions and ignoring it. >> guess who has seen this vacuum? it is gavin newsom. i want to play this ad he's running in florida. >> freedom is under attack in your state. i urge all of you living in florida to join the fight or join us in california where we still believe in freedom, freedom of speech, freedom from hate and the freedom to love. don't let them take your freedom. >> now, look, we can carve this up two ways, mark. he's trying to pick fights with

trump. he's trying to pick a fight with desantis. but the messaging in there was fascinating. i think that's what you hear from democrats. why isn't the white house -- this is what he says. where is the party? this is him saying, hey, guys, look, try this message. >> exactly. i don't think he cares about whether ten people in florida move to california. his message is to go national with these ads, get the attention of the white house. and, look, it is a compelling message. with all due respect to president biden, gavin newsom delivers it more compelling that the current president. look, i think it is very effective. i think it's a vacuum that is being filled and i think this is probably a product of its own weakness from the white house. >> rich, we will get to the republican leadership problems in the next block, but it does feel as if republicans only will have themselves to blame if they can't counter this. >> uh-huh. well, i think the newsom thing

is just to promote himself and to get us shouting about him, which is working. >> the freedom is a fascinating thing to reclaim that word. >> he will have to work hard to reclaim that given the policy in california. there was this period with people puffing him up into something he wasn't. now there is a period of existential despair when people realize what he is. he won the president by by defall. it is not as though he hasn't said from my perspective incredit my over the top things about guns and abortion and voting and everything people want him to rise to the moment on. he's not compelling or vigorous. that's just who he is and it's not going to get better. >> somebody said this to me. i think there is validity to it. that the single biggest thing that will stop this chatter about president biden in 2024 is if donald trump announces he's running in 2024 because there is nothing like that in the eyes of some folks that will solidify

the party around joe biden. >> all right. but i want to play this ad that's in north carolina. making it clear she doesn't want to be associated with either party. take a listen. >> we all know washington doesn't make a lot of sense. so why send the same politicians and expit it to change. special interests have too much party and neither political party is getting it right. >> clearly, look, that's the only way she's going to get to 50% in those state. we know those last 5% of voters in north carolina. can democrats succeed and distance themselves from washington at the same time? >> yes, they can because politics are local. this is a local election about what's happening in north carolina. she needs to state clearly what she is going to do to deliver for the people in her state, how she will differentiate herself and what's happening in d.c. this is a tale as old as time, people running away from the current occupant of the white house and people saying how they

will be different. >> which never works. it never works. if the president is at 38%, it never matter. >> they never had the attention around gun violence happening. i think this is different than other mid-term elections. >> the face of the opposition party remains donald trump. you can go to the middle of the charlotte airport and say, hey, there will be a rematch between donald trump and joe biden. 7 out of 10 of them will say kill me now. this is not an appeal of message from the defining parties. >> i guess the other thing is is there any way they change this narrative? you said it has to be trump that has to announce. >> i think gina is struck she acknowledged to you pretty clear that inflation is the reason why so many people are unhappy with the state of the country right

now. what's that face? >> i don't get why they haven't done some of these small things. they proposed a gas tax holiday, right? >> you asked her about that, right? i think, to me, when i have conversations with folks here who are lawmakers say it is so much about the economy and inflation. it is about the supreme court decision, but i think there is still a question at least for now. you heard that in the opening piece. >> last week 5% of people it is a top issue, abortion, 5%. we will find out there. i don't understand some ideas to tackle inflation are too small to have an impact. others are small but let's see if it has an impact. they don't seem to have the same story for every idea out there. when we come back, a story that when we come back, a story that takes more than 280 chara what if you were a gigantic snack food maker? and you had to wrestle a massively complex supply chain

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twitter. what happened and why? kara, welcome back to the show. this feels like the most predictable potential next thing that was going to happen the day he decided to buy it. >> yeah. >> so you are probably not surprised. >> yeah. >> but is he still going to own twitter anyway? >> well, if a court makes him buy it right now. i mean, i think that's what it's going to go to. it is all a legal proceeding now. it will besoething and it is a unprecedented. of course they havet. he will fight with the dell care courts, with twitter, he will fight publically. it could be a big mess and everyone might want to have him pay the billion dollar breakup fee and go. if twitter presses it, he may have to pay more. >> what does this mean for twitter? this is a public square that

there is political debate that sparked from it. it matters to a small group of people, but it matters a lot. what happens to the company? >> nothing good comes out of this elon musk is bored routine. he's interested in the company because he likes the product but a lot of this has become a ridiculous circus. i think it's not good for twitter. it puts them in a bad position to have to do this lawsuit, especially with someone that doesn't care and attacks them on their own platform. it is not good for them. they never had a strong business, which is one of the reasons someone like elon musk or another buyer could do something for it. it is a small, small business. for years it's underperformed, whether it is the stock or the revenues and this and that. there was a lot of promise here of possibility but nothing good is going to come of this for them and being in court against someone like that is not good

for the business, not good for employee retention, not good for branding, advertisers, not good. >> bad for twitter, good for who? is this a boom for tiktok, instagram? who? >> i guess. i guess. they're just watching quietly from the sidelines while this goes on. they weren't much of a competitor to facebook and tiktok. tiktok has been growing like crazy. even snapchat was doing well until the recent downtown. everyone has been hit hard in the recent stock sell-off. it's not really going to affect them. >> all right. all i know is it is elon musk which we will all be paying a lot of attention to this drama. >> maybe not now, chuck. >> all right. fair enough. kara, you always make us smarter. thank you. when we come back, a conservative party dumps its leader after a (vo) while you may not be a pediatric surgeon volunteering

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welcome back. now to the republicans. so, rich, there was a scandal plague and embarrassing leader of the conservative party in the u.k. and there was finally the enough is enough moment and they got rid of boris. you know, arguably mitch

mcconnell had a moment where he could have done the same thing, essentially the vote of no confidence. we're dumping our leader. this american conservative party hasn't done it, why? >> one, it is a different system. two, the british torrys have an culture of stabbing their leaders in the back and the front. that's not the way it works in our system. at the end of the day, the issue is trump has significant hold on republican voters. and critics of trump, enemies of trump want him to go away. they need to remind themselves the people they need to convince, fence sitting republicans. they like him. they're entertained by him. they hate the media, and they think trump is often attacked unfairly. from my perspective, the person most likely to win those voters is someone trump could hate as

well, someone like ron desantis rather than liz cheney. >> i think that's right. you talked about that gavin newsom ad. you talked about the way that desantis has become the -- and this is -- think of a way to put it, but if donald trump doesn't run, does ron desantis take that mantle? it's a different system he's got. it is not like donald trump where it is a sprawling group of advisers. tons of people talking about his plans. if you look at 2024, i think mike pence will clearly run. i do not think as much as mike pence wants to have a hold on the maga members of the republican party, he does not. that's a question mark. even evangelical republicans he can make a case to. >> let's get to your book because in many ways you get the explanation for why what happened in the u.k. isn't yet happening here. i want to start with this

excerpt because i think it gets at the core of republicans not understanding what's happening. if you are a republican in washington, the idea is basically to make yourself as much of a d-head as possible in order to get attention and impress the biggest d-head of all, the guy sitting in the white house. finish the anecdote for me. >> i'm not going to finish the d-head. >> he would not put his name on the quote. >> because he said he might have to lobby some day. that made the point for me in this book. conversations like that happen again and again in this book. you see the gap between, one, what republicans will say publically and privacy play out again and again and again. it is not like there is not a tradition of republicans pushing back on the leadership of their party in america. i mean, the person -- the

private view of republicans towards this president is extremely harsh. it is extremely mocking. and, look, politicians will always say different things in public and private before different audiences. i have never seen a gap wider than this. >> okay. but did this outgoing member of congress understand the fact that he saw his service in congress as a bridge to lobbying, does he not understand that's why trump was able to get these to hold? did he understand that part of the joke? >> apparently not. that literally is the problem. i think you're right. like republicans have to figure out what's more important to them. is it the immediacy of the power or do they care about their legacy? do they care about what history books write about them? i'm like of course they don't care. it is more important for them to win the election than to, i don't know, stand up for democracy. >> linda gram told you i have never been called so much by

this president in my life. he was addicted. >> they're all addicted. there are any number of psychological reasons why people do certain things, you know, and make decisions like this. it is funny. rich and i were in the green room before when governor hogan said well, republicans need to figure out what they need to do. it's like, it's been seven years. i mean, based on the precedence of recent history, the republican m.o. in dealing with donald trump fecklessness. i don't think the revolution will be led by lindsey graham or kevin mccarthy or mitch mcconnell. look, they have had the chance to do it over and over and over again. if he can survive january 6th and for a few days it looked like he wasn't and look where he is today. >> if he runs will somebody explain to me how he accepts losing? >> you know the answer to that question. >> that's a big conundrum. i think there is maybe 15%

chance he doesn't run. but -- but very likely he's in. >> that was the only answer is death. how many times did you get that. >> the only plan we have is a former republican congressman. we have no plan for this except sitting around hoping he dies. again, these conversations -- it's depressing but it is a fun book and has a great feature. but, no, these conversations happen over and over again. and what cast sharp relief over the last few months is you see what's happening on the january 6th commission, the courage that actually does happen in conservative circles is cast in relief with the leadership of the republican party. >> it is both a fun read, as you said and absolutely infuriating. congratulations. that's all we have for today. thank you for watching. remember, if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

it's monday, july 11th this morning, the january 6th investigation is about to go in another direction with former white house strategist steve bannon saying he is willing to testify now that donald trump has waived executive privilege the racegainst time is on to save the sequoias some 2,000 years old in yo yosemite's national park where the fire is uncontained. president biden says he's considering declaring a public health emergency for abortion access, but would such a move be