this sunday, outrage. the brutal police beating video of tyre nichols shocks the nation and raises more questions about policing in america. >> he was a human pinata for those police officers. >> no mother should go through what i'm going through right now. >> five fired memphis police officers have been charged with murder. >> struggling to find a stronger word. i would just tell you i was appalled. >> will congress try again to push for more police reform. i'll talk to republican

congressman jim jordan of ohio the chairman of the judiciary committee. plus, subpoena power. house republicans create a new committee to investigate so-called bias in the fbi and justice department. >> the fbi has been weaponized against president trump and, clearly, covered up for sitting president joe biden. >> democrats warn it is all about settling political scores. >> let's call it what it really is, the republican committee to obstruct justice. and giving tanks. the u.s. and germany agree to send battle tanks to ukraine. a move many once feared would risk escalating the war with putin. >> to enhance ukraine's capacity to achieve objectives. >> is time running out? our new poll shows support for arming ukraine is starting to fade. i'll talk to the former defense secretary and former cia director robert gates.

joining me are the moderator of "washington week" and the co-anchor of pbs news hour, former democratic senator claire mccaskill and stephen hayes, editor of "the dispatch." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longes running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. after the murder of george floyd, there seemed to be a bipartisan consensus that something had to be done on the national level. but nothing happened. now we're watching this brutal beating of tyre nichols in memphis, tennessee and asking, how can this be happening again? will this be the moment that sparks real action nationally? look, it's not a secret americans are losing confidence in their institutions including the police. and their political leaders in general. in fact, our new nbc news poll out this morning paints a picture of a deeply pessimistic country, distrustful of

government in general, with an overall outlook that is historically bleak. asked to describe where america is headed in the next year more than two-thirds use negative words and phrases, downhill, wrong track, disaster, hard times, and uncertainty. both sides of the aisle, folks. this isn't just one sided. a full 71% of americans say the nation is on the wrong track. we are in the longest sustained period of a wrong track number that high in the history of our poll. it's nearly been two and a half years of this sustained pessimism. that is longer than the 2008 financial crisis. and now the country is reeling after the release of this graphic video. we're here to warn you again, this video is very disturbing. in an assault caught on police surveillance and body cameras, memphis police officers punched, kicked, tased, pepper sprayed, and swung a baton at 29-year-old tyre nichols who was unarmed. nichols was pulled over in a traffic stop, which the police department initially said was due to, quote, reckless driving.

but memphis police chief davis who has called the killing of nichols heinous, reckless, and inhumane says investigators have been unable to substantiate that claim. again, this video is disturbing. here is a portion. >> get out of that car. >> i didn't do anything! >> hey, i didn't do -- >> turn your ass around. >> all right. all right. >> on the ground. >> all right. all right. all right. >> hey, no. >> you don't do that. okay? >> get on the -- ground! get on the ground! >> okay. >> stay there. >> all right. i'm on the ground. >> lay down. >> lay down. >> on the ground! >> okay! >> i will tase you if you don't get on the ground. one -- now. >> all right. okay. all right. >> after an officer pepper sprayed nichols' face and used a taser on him even though he was not resisting, nichols then

twisted himself away from officers and started to run away. minutes later officers caught up with him. he was less than 100 yards from his home. >> hey. >> give me your hand. >> you want to get sprayed again? >> hey, watch out. >> mom! mom! mom! mom! >> hey. give me your hands. >> all right. all right. >> give me your -- hands. >> all right. okay. all right. >> give me your hands. >> all right. >> give me your hands! >> all right. all right. >> spray. >> all right. >> give me your hands, bro. >> after the officers stopped beating nichols it took 28

minutes for an ambulance to take nichols to the hospital. he would die in the hospital three days later. nichols worked for fedex and had a 4-year-old son. five officers have been fired and charged with second-degree murder, aggravated assault, aggravated kidnapping, official misconduct and official oppression. the justice department is conducting a civil rights investigation into the death. two shelby county sheriff's deputies have been relieved of duty pending internal investigation. as well as two members of the memphis fire department, all of them seen in the longer version of the video. protests erupted across the country from memphis to new york to los angeles. in a statement late on friday president biden called the killing, quote, yet another painful reminder of the profound fear and trauma, the pain and the exhaustion that black and brown americans experience every single day. >> for me to find out that my son was calling my name and i was only feet away, did not even

hear him, you have no clue how i feel right now. no clue. >> i spoke with tyre's mother. and expressed my condolences and told her that i was going to be making a case to the congress to pass the george floyd act. it has a lot to say and do with the image of america. it has a lot to do with whether or not we are the country we say we are. >> joining me now is republican congressman jim jordan of ohio. he chairs the house judiciary committee. in fact, any police reform bill in many ways would begin in his committee. congressman jordan, welcome back to "meet the press." >> good to be with you, chuck. >> let me start with what we saw. senator tim scott said, we've been here too many times before. we cannot continue down this path. america cannot stand silent. let it serve as a call to action for every lawmaker in our nation at every level. what action would you like to see, congressman? >> i don't know that there is any law that can stop that evil

that we saw that is just, i mean, just difficult to watch. what strikes me is a lack of respect for human life, so i don't know that any law, any training, any reform is going to change, you know, this man was handcuffed. they continued to beat him. i was actually reminded, it is hard to watch the whole thing but as i watched i was reminded of when we had a hearing probably two years ago when george floyd's brother came and testified in front of the judiciary committee and it was one of those moments where fact and truth and emotion all came together and he said something at that hearing, actually during the questioning portion of the hearing, he said, life is precious. and it was one of those moments that grabbed everyone in that hearing, both parties, and the fact we saw that these individuals, these five individuals did not have any respect for life, again, i don't think these five guys represent the vast, vast majority of law enforcement, but i don't know there is anything you can do to stop the kind of evil we saw in

that video. >> it sounds like you are not for any new federal regulation. >> there are things we can do. there are all kinds of grant dollars that go out, reform that can happen there. we offered amendments to a bill. tim scott had legislation. that wasn't what the democrats brought forward a few years ago. so i think there are some things we can look at, but it's just a difference in i think a philosophy. the democrats always think it's a new law that is going to fix something that terrible. we kind of think that's, you know, no law is going to get that >> i get the ideological. the tim scott bill had a lot of financial incentives. >> sure did. >> and the george floyd bill was some mandatories. why not a federal ban on chokeholds? that is agreed upon, right? a full federal ban on chokeholds for police officers? >> i am for the best training possible but not what we saw there. i don't know any training, any ban -- there was no chokeholds used there. what they did was just continue to beat mr. nichols until -- i don't know that that is the answer. but we, again, we'll look at what we think makes sense to

help this, to make sure they have the proper training but no amount of training is going to change what we saw in the video >> i understand that, but why not set some minimum standards so that officers are held accountable immediately? in this case it was because the chief acted. the chief sort of acted unilaterally here. we don't always see that kind of leadership. why not enact a federal standard? most people don't want to commit murder but we have a federal standard when it comes to murder. >> if we can incentivize certain things i still think you want to keep this at the state and local level. this is a law enforcement issue. you start getting the federal government involved in data bases and federalizing things it gets -- because the federal government screws it up so many times. we've had i think one of the items in the democrat legislation a couple years ago was some kind of federal registry. then you get concerns is every complaint going to be there, just adjudicated complaints? how do we track this? i know all kinds of federal data bases that get it wrong. we've had federal congress members on the no fly list

because they were categorized in the terrorist category. or the illegal migrants who came across who were on the terrorist watch list. there are all kinds of problems with that. >> we've had the issue of wandering cops for instance where you can go across state lines. you've been adjudicated in one jurisdiction as someone who shouldn't be a cop but you can get a job somewhere else. this is why people want this data base. >> that is a good point. there should be some way. i don't know if you need it to be the federal government. some way if a police officer is moving from indianapolis to columbus there should be some way for them to know if there have been adjudicated complaint against that guy so you know what you're getting. >> don't you have to do this on the federal level? >> i would prefer it be done if we can incentivize, much prefer it to be done at the state and local level >> i hear you but i literally did a special about a wandering cop who was adjudicated >> i saw some of that. >> across state lines. you see what i mean. once you go across state lines it has to be at the federal level.

>> maybe we can look at a federal law that requires that to happen but it is done at the local level so if a cop is coming from one jurisdiction to the other they have to let you know what happened in the previous jurisdiction. the other thing that frankly needs to happen is we're not getting enough good people applying because of the disparagement on police officers. i talked with police officers all the time. i remember flying through the chicago airport, phoenix airport talking with officers there. right now they don't get enough people applying taking the test to enter the academy to be an officer because there's been this defund the police concept out there, this attack on law enforcement, and you're not getting the best of the best. they may have a hundred openings and get ten people to apply. >> aren't you making a case for federal standards then? if you make a case for having strong standards across the board it gives people -- >> we shouldn't have this whole attitude about defunding and disparaging police because the vast majority aren't doing what we saw in that video. >> i get you. i don't think anybody in washington is seriously advocating defunding police. i get there are people arguing

that. >> well, there were. >> i understand that. >> a couple years ago. >> that is not what the george floyd bill is. >> a number of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle were talking about defund police. i have a list of 20 jurisdictions that defund the police to $20 billion over. that is a problem. >> that is not the federal debate. >> it's a big debate across the country the last several years >> i know you have other investigations you want to do. should this now be at the top of your list? should police reform be among the top things the judiciary committee works on? >> this was certainly in many ways abuse, weaponization of government and abuse of the state and authority against the people that they're supposed to serve. but we got a number of things we are going to look at in the judiciary committee and select committee as well. >> explain the difference between the select committee which you're chair of that is focused on what is, what you guys are calling the weaponization of the federal government and law enforcement communities and the judiciary committee. you're also chair of that. what is the distinction here? why are you chair of both?

>> that is what the leader wanted and what speaker mccarthy wanted and the select committee has some non-judiciary committee members on it, members from the intelligence committee, energy and commerce committee, and homeland security are part of that committee. the weaponization is we have that because of what we've seen in various agencies over the last couple years. just take the fbi for example. the fbi spied on the president's campaign, altered evidence in front of the pfizer court, paid a confidential human source even after they knew the confidential human source had lied to them. the fbi has targeted parents. the fbi has done a number of things. the fbi raided the home of a former president 91 days before election, took the phone of a sitting member of congress, and on and on we can go. just last week we learned a former fib agent special agent in charge of counterintelligence in the new york division was taking money from a russian. this wasn't just, this was the special agent in charge of counterintelligence in new york taking money from oleg -- not

just any russian, the russian. >> you know who his american adviser was, the former campaign manager to donald trump's campaign >> i understand. >> so, you know, does this not raise some troubling signs here? >> it sure does. >> paul manafort was the go between for oleg deripaska and gave him polling information on the campaign. >> and also paid christopher steele who was the key guy on the whole steele dossier that launched the trump investigation. mr. mcgonigal the special agent at the fbi. this is where we look at this attack of the weaponization of government. we're focused on the number of things we've seen. i haven't even gotten to the department of homeland security. >> i want to unpack a little bit. you talk about the fbi abusing power when it comes to parents and the school board. school board members were getting death threats. these weren't idle things, parents just yelling and screaming.

these were actual death threats to elected officials and the fbi got a tip. should they not look into a death threat when an elected official gets a death threat? >> the school board writes a letter on september 29. five days later the attorney general of the united states issues a memorandum to 101 attorneys' offices around the country saying set up this line they can report on. 16 days later, chuck, the fbi sends out an e-mail to agents all across the country saying put this designation on parents reported on the snitch line that the attorney general set up. so all that happens, think about it, september 29th, october 4th, october 20th. that all happens in 22 days. when have you ever seen the federal government move that fast? 25 parents. >> they are death threats, congressman. literally -- >> let me finish this. 25 parents get reported on the snitch line. they all get investigated. fbi shows up at their door. guess how many have been charged? zero. >> the fbi did its job. did the fbi not do its job? if they were trumping something up wouldn't they be arrested?

you are trying to create a controversy out of the fbi following up a tip. in loudoun county, virginia, school board member if she doesn't quit or resign before the end of the year we will her but first we will kill you. in dublin, ohio, school board member you have become our enemies. you will be removed one way or the other. shouldn't the fbi investigate these? >> one person they went to investigate is a mom and because she is in the group moms for liberty and has firearms they go and investigate her. you investigate america for that? they show up at your house? you don't think that has a chilling impact on other parents? there is a school board meeting tonight. mr. jones is thinking about going and talking but he says you know maybe i won't because mrs. smith had a visit from the fbi last week. the chilling impact on free speech is what we care about. this committee is about protecting the constitution in particular the first amendment. >> many of the things you want to investigate when i look at them in isolation i think they're fair targets. i think they are fair things for you to be questioning. the problem that, when you look

at this, you want to talk about the weaponization of the justice department but not anything during the trump years. he subpoenaed data on congressman adam schiff and eric swalwell. that is known. he secretly obtained reporters' phone records using the justice department. he pressured the justice department, donald trump did, to go easy on michael flynn and roger ston, pressured by mark meadows to investigate alleged election fraud. he even tried to change the leadership at the justice department. >> chuck. we want to protect the first amendment. >> if you are concerned about the weaponization of the justice department in the biden years why not investigate the trump years? >> we'll look at threats to the first amendment, what elon musk through the twitter files has displayed is unbelievable. the idea that the fbi was paying twitter $3.4 million to help them suppress information -- >> that is not how it worked. to comply with subpoenas. that is a federal law congress passed. >> do you think it is okay for the fbi to be meeting every week and suppressing information

about a conservative, suppressing the hunter biden story which we know is true? do you think that is all right? most americans say no that is probably information -- >> this is a private organization that made this decision. >> with pressure from the government. that is the point. i understand the private organization can do it. i don't think it is right. there shouldn't be pressure from the government. when is the fbi just going to stay out of the election process? just let we the people decide, let the american people decide. in 2016 they spied on trump's campaign. 2018 was the mueller investigation. 2020 they helped suppress the hunter biden story. 2022 they raid the home of a former president 91 days before election. maybe let the american people decide. >> you keep talking about this raid on donald trump. the amount of time, there was nine months between the initial action of the archives for the request of documents before they even turned it over to the justice department. the subpoena was issued 60 days before they actually executed the subpoena. and more importantly the only time the public found out about it is because donald trump told the public. this was not some sort of -- you

paint it as a picture of the fbi did this, this, and this within hours of each other when it was actually a year and a half of donald trump not complying with any of the requests from national archives. a year and a half. this is not some sort of proof that somehow they've weaponized and are playing politics over here. >> they raided trump's home. they haven't raided biden's home. >> because biden didn't defy a subpoena, congressman. he defied a subpoena. by the time he had 60 days to comply with the subpoena before they actually executed the search warrant. >> president trump had documents locked in a room with secret service protecting them. president biden had documents in his garage and in a think tank that was funded by the chinese. i think there is a difference. president trump was the only guy actually president. >> you talk about you're worried about the chinese and hunter biden. are you worried about the chinese and donald trump? >> they took pictures. >> are you at all worried about that? >> no i'm not. they took pictures of the documents at trump's house and took no pictures -- in fact it is not just me who would like to know what went on here.

senator warner said it last week. he would like to get a briefing and see the documents. the fbi is saying no. but they took pictures of the folders in trump's home. >> the issue is not whether, what joe biden did of concern. the issue is why -- >> is it under the law, equal treatment under the law. >> you do not seem tofr see the same conspiratorial problems when it is a republican. >> those were all investigated for four years and continue to do it. >> their durham investigation investigated everything you are trying to and came up with nothing. do you not trust bill barr and mr. durham? >> the mueller investigation, we had two and a half years of this. they were going to find russian collusion and guess what adam schiff told us. >> they investigated all these concerns that you had about the fbi, made up snitches, all of these things. they didn't find anything. why is you want to reinvestigate it? >> they found kevin kleinsmith altered documents and pled guilty to it. when you have someone with the fbi altering documents in front of the pfizer court that is not

finding anything? that is pretty important. >> they did not find what you are claiming is out there. why couldn't durham find it? >> the durham investigation is not done. the mueller investigation is done. what he concludes, no collusion, no conspiracy. we spent $40 million on that and it consumed the country for two and a half years and there was nothing. >> let me ask you about subpoena compliance. you didn't comply with the subpoena from congress. why should you expect the biden white house to comply with your subpoena? >> first of all i never told the january 6 committee i wouldn't come testify. what i raised is concerns. they first asked me. i sent a letter back. i never said no. they never responded. the next thing i know they issue a subpoena. i sent another letter. i never said i wouldn't comply but i was very reluctant dealing with these guys because we caught them lying. they played a video clip when i was doing an interview between election day and inauguration day. they played a video clip where i

said, january 6th is the ultimate date of significance in a presidential contest insinuating one thing. what they left off is what i said the front end. they cut the clip. what i said is the late justice ruth bader ginsburg said january 6 is the ultimate day of significance in a presidential content. when you catch a group lying as many times as we did and we weren't allowed to be part of it. >> how about telling us what you talked with donald trump about on january 6. >> be happy to talk to you about the concerns i had. >> no, no. what were your conversations? >> i don't divulge conversations with my colleagues or with the president of the united states. i mean, i talked with him all the time and my colleagues all the time but i don't divulge those conversations. >> as the current special counsel looking into january 6th, have they subpoenaed you for anything? >> no. >> if they do will you comply? >> of course. >> when should we expect the first hearing? >> our first hearing of judiciary committee is going to be tuesday or wednesday depending on what the minority leader does with, there is a rule they have to deal with when we get their members and all. we are planning on the first

committee hearing of the full committee on the border -- >> do you support kevin mccarthy? >> he's done a great job and i support him for speaker. he'll be a great speaker. >> you will support his speakership all the way through? >> yeah. of course. he is the speaker of the house. i think you'll see our team come together and kevin has kept us together better than any leader we had. >> we had a lot we could have gotten to but didn't. i hope you'll come back. >> thank you. i will. when we come back, will arming ukraine with western tanks mark a turning point in the conflict? former dense secr (vo) red lobster's finer points of fun dining: at lobsterfest, whether you're a sea-foodie or a lobster newbie, there's something for everyone. try one of six dishes, like new lobster and shrimp tacos for $17.99. and leave completely lobsessed. welcome to fun dining. ♪ ♪

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unless the u.s. gave them cover and did the same. what is interesting is in our new nbc news poll 50% of americans disapprove of president biden's handling of the ukraine war right now. just 49% support providing ukraine more weapons and funding going forward, numbers that suggest biden may have a timeline when it comes for political support for u.s. involvement. it is not just a partisan divide but a generational one. americans who lived through the cold war have a memory of the berlin wall are more likely to support funding. if you don't have a memory of it you are less likely to support it. just hours after the u.s. and european allies announced the new tanks russia unleashed air strikes targeting the power grid and killing 11 people. ukraine's president zelenskyy called on allies to toughen sanctions and ukrainian officials now asked for f-16 fighter jets. how does it end? joining me now is former secretary and head of the cia robert gates who served under eight u.s. presidents of both parties. good to see you. >> thank you.

>> we will lower the temperature here a little bit. i want to start with something you wrote with secretary condoleezza rice about two weeks ago. about the war right now. we are convinced that putin believes time is on his side. that he can wear down the ukrainians and that the u.s. and european unity and support for ukraine will eventually erode and fracture. to be sure the russian economy and people will suffer as the war continues but russians have endured far worse. you just saw what i was leading in with. we have public support there. but it is fading. it looked like this week nato support is there but it could fracture. how much time does the west and ukraine have here? >> i think we still have quite a bit of time, chuck. i think there is still broad bipartisan support in the congress for helping ukraine. when it comes to public opinion and so on this is basically the responsibility of the president to educate people about why this is necessary, why must we

confront putin in ukraine so we don't end up confronting him somewhere where our own forces are directly involved. >> do you think he has not done that? i feel like he has done that. i don't know if the public is listening. part of me wonders does the memory of afghanistan and iraq cloud the trust the american public may or may not have with these things? >> well, it is one of those messages that has to be repeated over and over and over again. you can't make one speech or give a press conference or something like that. you just have to keep pounding away. you also, i think it is also incumbent on the members of congress who are supportive of this when they go back into their districts to help the president in terms of helping people understand why we need to help ukraine. i think the alliance is holding together really well. i think there's -- if you had said a year ago that europe will go from more than 40% dependency on russia for oil and gas and they're now less than a year

later zero to 15% dependent, that is extraordinary. >> i was going to say, look, our current politics make it impossible for anybody to give credit to the other side anymore but this has been so far one of the few times it seems like where this policy of essentially let's arm somebody else, where it's working without putting our own boots on the ground and seems to be working. what is the pitfall here where it could suddenly stop working? >> i think if we falter or if our continuing support were to begin to flag, if the europeans were to begin to fray, i don't really see that happening right now. i think the europeans are being very tough and i think that as i said there's a lot of bipartisan support. >> russia was your portfolio back in the day at the cia and then some. what you know about putin, what do you think the real red line is with him? he has had a lot of bluster and

so far we've crossed all the supposed red lines that he was drawing about us supporting ukraine or this or that, nato doing this or that. he has had a lot of bluster. is there any red line he is serious about that we should be concerned about? >> i think potentially crimea could be because their big naval base in crimea basically gives them control of the black sea. i think it has strategic importance. putin believes it is his destiny to recreate the russian empire as my old mentor used to say without ukraine there can be no russian empire so he is obsessed with retaking ukraine. he will hang in there. i think that he does believe that time is on his side, supporting the u.s., supporting europe and so on, will fray -- support in europe and so on will fray and he is doing what russian armies have always done and that is sending large numbers of relatively poorly

equipped, poorly trained conscripts to the front lines and in the belief that mass will overcome. >> anything you would have advised president biden to do differently in this case? >> i think the only thing i would have said is that a lot of this could have been done sooner. you know, they're talking about it potentially being six months, a year, or more before the abrams tanks get there. i think the key thing about the abrams tank decision was that it unlocked the germans. >> abrams' tanks are probably not going to make that much difference when we're talking 37 versus how many leopard tanks we want to get over there now. >> our allies, poland, germany, and others have hundreds of these leopard tanks which are a very good tank. >> you have a legacy in washington of being a guy who sort of fixes dumb problems meaning like stuff like why isn't this fixed? >> it is a target rich environment. >> it is. how would you -- this classified document situation our politics

finds itself in is this something the bureaucracy should fix or is there something more nefarious? >> i think it's about people being more responsible. i think there's an element of carelessness in some cases there may be intent to take the documents. i think maybe we ought to look at the way transitions take place. >> right. >> so there is a more orderly process. >> the pentagon is very orderly. it is my understanding the pentagon has it pretty orderly when it comes to classified documents. >> basically don't take anything. >> right. like that is the point. is that what we ought to clamp down on here? >> certainly in terms of what people have in their own residences and so on, yes. >> very quickly, you've spent a lot of time on the ncaa speaking of problem organizations. does congress need to intervene on college sports? >> i am always hesitant with congress involved because you usually end up with a solution you don't want but the problem that the conference, the athletic conferences are facing

now they are all multi state conferences and every state is passing a different law with different rules and so there is no consistency for any of the conferences and so i think there is a need for a federal law that standardizes this so it is a level playing field. >> the issue of multi-state problems has come up in two different interviews today on two different topics. secretary gates, always good to see you. >> thanks. up next president biden said he was outraged and deeply pained after watching the police beating of tyre nichols.

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welcome back, panelists here, moderator of "washington week" and the co-anchor of "newshour" on pbs and steven hayes and former democratic senator claire mccaskill. welcome to all of you. i'll start with the lawmaker because you have been there when they tried to do police reform a few times now. the most recent time it didn't happen. should we have any hope this time is different? >> i'm always optimistic and i do think this is brutal.

people who think that body cams on police officers are not doing what they should, i get that this young man died. we now know exactly what happened. it does make a difference. we are to the point that if you do this, a camera is going to catch it. i got to applaud memphis and that police chief how quickly they brought this out to the public and how quickly they charged them with murder >> i want to play something the chief said about why she was so quick and forthcoming. here is what she said to tom llamas. >> what i wanted to deliver for this family at least was that first step of justice for them, to quickly deal with these officers within the scope of my power and to help facilitate this moment to the da's office as well. it was obvious to me that what i saw was beyond the scope of what

is condoned in this police department and any department i have ever worked in before. >> a different police chief might have gone to internal affairs. a different police chief might have waited a longer period of time. she -- this was a case where her leadership mattered in how this was handled. she didn't follow a new protocol. she created her own. >> she did make sure to try to deliver and act very quickly. the issue is that a different police chief can do something different today. >> right. >> if there is a tyre nichols today, a rowvaughn wells' son today who for 67 minutes is beaten and drag, a different police chief can do that because we don't have the -- when the police kill you it is the government killing you but he says he doesn't know what law would change that. so many civil rights leaders i have talked to, families who would vehemently disagree

because we don't know how many tyre nichols are there because we don't have that. also i want to say this was such a horrific and terrible video. it is so problematic that we see these officers tying their shoes not rendering medical aid. it seems to me that this is ordinary. it is terrible but also very familiar. so to me as i'm struggling to cover this, i really see this and think to myself how many other people have been in this situation and we have video, it doesn't mean they'll get justice. by the way justice is tyre nichols being here for his 4-year-old child and seeing him grow up but to see this video and say video is changing things, rodney king was on video. eric gaern was on video. i've talked to those families. they don't believe seeing this is enough. you have to have change and so this doesn't happen again. >> that is what this video situation, it does feel like without the video there wouldn't have been any justice. >> sure. >> we are getting it too late but she brings up a point. it was interesting to hear the congressman agree that, yeah.

interstate, the wandering cop issue, i guess we gotta -- you know, i understand he has an ideological point of view about not doing that but also admitted the flaw i think. >> sure. you can pick apart any single factor, the wandering cop issue, you know, body cameras, banning chokeholds, all of this stuff. these are all little pieces of what is clearly a larger problem. i think when we treat these incidents like isolated incidents we fail to see the forest for the trees which is to say, there's a larger problem here. we've all been having this conversation. certainly many people for generations. but really as a nation for the last three years since the killing of george floyd. what changed since then? 2022 we actually had the highest number of police killings on record. nearly 1200. that was two years after the killing of george -- >> and incomplete records. >> correct. you can look at the combination, unique combination of factors on the ground in memphis where they did have a number of reforms after the killing of george floyd as well. but you needed multiple body

camera angles and security camera. you needed a chief who was willing to act. you needed labor union laws on the ground that allowed for a quick investigation in a way a lot of other cities wouldn't. all of this had to come together for there to be swift justice. that is not the case in most places in this country. >> steve, how would we break through the ideological belief from some that congressman jordan expressed which is, no, when the federal government gets involved you won't like it? >> i think he made a valid point at the beginning of his answer to you which is to say, sometimes it is not possible to pass laws to solve problems like this. i mean, i take your point. one time seeing something like this is far too many. i don't think this has become ordinary. i think one of the things you can take some comfort from as horrific as this has been is there has been this universal condemnation of what happened. i mean, the fraternal order of police put out a statement condemning this. you had conservative republicans jim dorton putting out a statement.

nobody believes this is acceptable. i do think that to the senator's point the fact that it was captured on video allowed the police chief to take these steps as quickly as she has. we've seen this stuff on video before and it hasn't led to quick solutions but the fact that this led to the kind of immediate, swift action is a step in the right direction. >> i just want to add, though, i think when we talk about the fact that we see this and there is talk about this and statements released black families are waking up traumatized and worried about sending children out in the streets. black men are driving cars and hoping they don't get pulled over. people pregnant with black boys are worried right now they could ever see their child, that they made for nine months be killed in a minute in a matter of minutes because of this. i don't know that people see that, the people that are most impacted by this, which frankly are black people are looking and saying this is enough. i think for me when i cover this stuff and i cover all of this black, this death, we have to

have this conversation about the fact that also the officers are black. that is not surprising. i think maybe it is not ordinary. not every single officer is doing this. but i think it is ordinary enough that african americans are scared and this happens far too often and we don't know how often. i think that is the sort of issue i take with this and the conversation. >> i am going to pause the conversation here and we'll come back with a little more raw politics after the break. but first, not the best of news. mass shootings in america, guess what? we've had more already in 2023 we've had more already in 2023 than the what if you were a major transit system with billions of passengers taking millions of trips every year? you aren't about to let any cyberattacks slow you down. so you partner with ibm to build a security architecture to keep your data, network, and applications protected. now you can tackle threats so they don't bring you to a grinding halt. and everyone's going places, including you.

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schedule your appointment today. welcome back. data down load time. it's a grim one i'm warning you. america woke up last sunday to news of a mass shooting in monterey park, california. killed 11 people. in the week since, there have actually been 11 more mass shootings across the country. the data doesn't show any signs of a coming slowdown or likely action. by the way the definition of mass shooting that we're using is when four or more people are killed or wounded in one

incident. so 29 days of the year, 44 mass shootings and already accounted for 79 people killed. we're just on our 29th day of this year. if you look this is a trend that has been sadly growing. the last four years we've averaged more mass shootings than days of the year. it is obviously a graphic that keeps ticking up. if you're wondering, washington must be ready to do something about it. right? guess what? the voters don't necessarily say it's a priority. this is before the midterms. most important issue, deciding your vote, look where guns is. just 3%. literally almost last on the list that we included here. so that is one reason why you don't see anything. support for stricter gun control is a majority but it's not a super majority. you know it takes a super majority to get anything done in washington. we've had various upticks right after sandy hook as high as 58%. currently the end of calendar year 2022, 57% according to

gallup supported stricter gun laws. we do see spikes in this after parkland the number as high as 67%. after uvalde the number got up to 66%. but normally, if something doesn't happen right after one of those incidents, washington doesn't pay any more attention. this endless cycle of carnage and inaction has been repeated for decades but the conversation has changed, barely a blip. back in 1968. democratic senator joseph tidings appeared on this program and called for congress to take up gun reform. he did so just a few days after his close friend bobby kennedy was shot and killed. >> additional gun control measures reaching to long guns are to be introduced in the congress this week but how could any of these proposed gun limits have helped to avoid the shooting of senator kennedy? >> well, the specific legislation which would be a mail order ban on long guns which the president has proposed which we tried to amend to title

4 in the senate, wouldn't go far enough in my judgment. i think we need a responsible, sane gun policy in this country which would require the registration of all guns just as automobiles and would require a license to purchase a it's just tragic that in all of the western civilization the united states is the one country with an insane gun policy. >> when we come back, donald trump hits the campaign trail for the first time in his 2024 campaign strategies tofor their long-termts' pogoals.os (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions for you, right? (fisher investments) no, we don't sell commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money, only when your clients make more money? (fisher investments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different.

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welcome back the panel is here. we did have a new nbc news poll. we talked about the pessimism. we asked about the classified documents. what is interesting here is there was almost no distinction between americans' concerns about biden and the classified document situation and trump and what is oddly heartening here, i told this to steve, i said i guess this is what qualifies as good news in our poll partisans didn't act lik partisans. democrats were concerned about, a majority were concerned about biden and a majority of republicans were concerned about what trump did but this does seem to muddy -- the voters see wrongdoing everywhere what say you >> first of all, i can't tell you how many times i have given up my watch, given up my phone, gone in the skiff, looked at classified documents and read

things that were in the paper three days ago there is an over classification problem. i was surprised secretary gates didn't mention it. there is also a problem of declassifying. for example, let's say, for example, one of the classified documents that might have been at pence's house was his schedule on an overseas trip that's classified because you don't want everybody to know where you're going before you go, but after the trip is over, that should not be classified anymore. >> right. >> so until the american people know what was in these documents, they have no way of telling whether this is serious or not serious, although i did think your point was important one, all of the people who found these documents that were sloppy and handled them carelessly, they all said, please take them. we found them. we want you to have them, except one. and he did everything he could to lie and obfuscate about the fact that he took them intentionally and kept them intentionally. >> steve, all of this classified documents -- does it -- politics is not supposed to enter into

the justice department's thinking, but it does seem to be it is harder to make a case against trump. >> yeah. i mean, just in terms of public perception i think they have to be realistic about this the distinction that you made in your interview with jim jordan was appropriate. we know what donald trump did. he defied the subpoenas. he defied requests to return the documents. but in terms of public perception, it will matter and republicans will say i think somewhat justifibly if you go back and look at hillary clinton and some of the previous episodes republicans are prosecuted and democrats aren't. that makes a huge perception problem for the justice department >> it is interesting because i remember the "meet the press" headline from this week that said the pence documents were good for biden and great for trump. i thought it was brilliant because what you see is a muddying of the waters it is hard for americans to see classified documents floating out there and think maybe the issue is not just the individuals. but the issue is how we handle classified documents

there is the issue of over classification but the big question when i talk to people is how are we actually handling classified documents and who is in charge of tracking them >> the bigger issue i felt like in our poll, if you were the biden white house, is just you don't ever want to be sort of on the same level as trump. you don't ever want that that feeling and this poll, for whatever it is, on a lot of things, we tested some qualities, i mean, he is seeing the public has lost confidence in the president's ability to handle a crisis, to be competent, whether he's got the physical and mental health, all of this stuff has deteriorated some of this may be, this is the world we live in but this is not a good place to start. >> i think it is also important to point out you are asking in the poll about one person at this moment in time relatively in a vacuum, we're not comparing to other people, right americans are in a pretty pessimistic point of view. and i think it's fair. coming off the last three years of what this country has been through, where the economy is right now, gas prices are down, egg prices are up. you know, there's probably another interest rate hike coming i think americans are feeling

very pessimistic about the direction this country is going in but when you look on balance, the president's numbers have remained largely steady over the last years. >> over the last year, they haven't really budged. >> his numbers on i believe things like foreign policy, handling of overseas issues actually ticked up a little bit when it comes to one of the biggest crises we are facing as a planet right now, but also when you look at who people want in charge president biden and democrats in congress still have a little bit of an edge. >> who has the edge today in kansas city? >> i think that is pretty obvious! >> yeah? >> i think, well of course we are the underdog, chuck. remember they are coming to burrow head to play. >> she said it >> go chiefs chiefs >> she was here last year for the same matchup and was that confident. before we go sign up for our free daily newsletter first read and get the best analysis and polling every morning. scan the qr code now that is all we have for today. thanks for watching. we're back next week we'll see what the super bowl is because if it is sunday, it's "meet the press."

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