♪♪ ♪♪ this sunday, trump indicted. >> it's been a long time coming. >> a manhattan grand jury votes to indict donald trump making

him the first former president ever charged with a crime. >> there is no crime. it's a bad act. >> i'll speak to stay vance. >> this is legal voodoo. >> the gop, rallies to his defense before knowing the specifics of the actual criminal charges he's facing. >> this is nothing short of a -- of a political prosecution. >> will the twice-impeached former president continue to be seen as a positive force inside the gop? >> politically it's a -- it's going to be damaging, i think, to the republican party. >> and what will this indictment do to our already divided politics? >> i'll talk to leading centrists, joe manchin of west virginia and pay to play. as the march madness tournament comes to a close i'll talk to ncaa president of former republican governor of massachusetts charlie baker on

the challenge of how to pay college athletes and joining us for insight and analysis is kristen welker. washington post senior political correspondent ashley parker. former republican governor, pat mccrory and former senior adviser stephanie cutter, welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press". >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history. this is "meet the press with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. for the first time in american history, a former history of the united states has been indicted on criminal charges. mr. trump plans to travel to new york on monday, stay overnight at trump tower before being arraigned on tuesday in manhattan criminal court on charges related to hush money payments made to buy the silence of adult film star stormy daniels just before the 2016 presidential election. the exact charges remain under seal, but according to our

reporting, trump faces about 30 charges of document-related fraud, the associated press is reporting that at least one of those charges is a felony charge. trump's 2024 rivals have jumped to his defense calling the indictment un-american, a travesty, an outrage. more about revenge than it is about justice, and saying it should not happen in america and and the party with exceptions you can literally count on one hand has followed suit. here's a sampling. >> the unprecedented indictment of a former president of the united states on a campaign finance issue is outrageous. >> it's the arc archetypal abuse to engage in a political hit job. >> they want a picture of donald trump in handcuffs. they want a mug shot. >> now he turns around, purely for political purposes and

indicts a former president on misdemeanor offenses that they're straining to try to convert into felonies. >> this is going to destroy america. >> it's notable that governor desantis concededed that trump may have committed misdemeanors. trump's indictment and subsequent trial will be a test for the rule of law. will it further divide the nation or signal that no one is truly above the law? >> we call that mitch mcconnell has not commented on the indictment since it was reported on thursday, but we should remind you what he said after voting to impeach trump at his second impeachment trial. >> we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation, and former presidents are not immune from being accountable from either one. >> by the way, it's worth noting, being charged with or even convicted of a crimed not disqualify trump from running for president or even from serving as president.

so what is the political impact? the trump campaign is trying very hard to act as if this is helping him. they've even circulated internal polling to the press this weekend showing that they are somehow increasing their lead over ron desantis in the primary and according to the campaign he's raised $24 million in the first 24 hours, after the indictment it was thanks to this flood of fund-raising solicitations. it is likely to freeze the presidential race on the gop side for quite some time because it will make it difficult for trump's opponents to seize the spotlight and break through and part of the reason for that a whopping 2% of political voters still believe that the twice impeached donald trump has had a positive role on the gop. huge questions remain whether this will be a political problem may depend on whether he faces a second indictment in dietment in georgia, or third indictment or

fourth indictment here in washington. let's dig into the case. cyrus vance, who preceded alvin bragg and it was vance's office that began this investigation. cy vance, welcome to "meet the press". >> good morning, chuck. >> you began this campaign in 2018. i know you haven't read the indictment, but if you could perhaps help us sort out what does it look like the charges are going to be on tuesday morning? well, chuck, the truth is as you've already commented i haven't head the indictment and we've read a lot about what the indictment may be about, but i think we all have to sort of take a pause here and wait until the charges are released in court on tuesday, if the charges are exclusive he along the lines of the reporting before i came

on, it will be a class e felony and there is an upward range and a downward range as you noted that involved no prison whatsoever. so that's what we have to wait and see, really only district attorney bragg knows what the evidence is and it's another thing we all have to be mindful of that we can speculate on what evidence we think they may or may not have, but even with the indictment published, we really will not know what the district attorney's evidence is and what they will create at trial. >> the associated press is one felony charge. do you expect this to be more than that or is there probably only one charge that will be, as you described it, the class e felony? >> that, i don't know, chuck, but even cumulative numbers of class e felonies won't necessarily increase any exposure. >> do you expect this to be a speaking indictment, essentially

laying out the facts in some testimony when we finally get it unsealed? >> i would anticipate, although i obviously don't know that it would be a speaking indictment. our office, when i was district attorney used speaking indictments in order to have the background facts that led to the indictment. it's a way the public official can explain to the public in a legitimate way why the case is being brought and what evidence generally speaking, can be anticipated during the trial. >> let me read an editorial from "the washington post" just after the indictment was made public. here's what they wrote. this prosecution is now bound to be the test case for any future former president as well as, of course, proceedings against this former president, a failed prosecution over the hush money payment could put them all in jeopardy as well as provide mr.

trump ammunition for his acquisitions of, quote, witch hunt. this prosecution needs to be airtight otherwise it's not worth continuing. is there any doubt in your mind that this case is airtight? >> i do not if this is airtight or not. i know that the d.a.'s office has experienced seasoned lawyers and this is the charges that might be involved here are not -- are certainly well within their experience level and their trial experience level, and the quality of the evidence we must relate to, but when you look back on the investigation, chuck, one has to remember that we went to the supreme court twice in our office in order to get the financial documents which were finally released to us by the supreme court and that resulted in the indictment of the trump organization as well as the cfo. the trump organization being an alter ego of the president. life continued after that event.

the case was tried and it was a very strong case, and the court imposed a fine, but the world didn't stop because the trump organization was indicted by our office. >> why didn't you charge the hush money case? why didn't you ever charge it in 2018, 2019 and 2020? >> chuck, i don't want to get into the deliberations that might be covered by grand jury material, but as i believe you know, i was asked by the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district to stand down on our investigation which had commenced involving the trump organization as someone who expects that office a great deal and believing that they may have perhaps, the best laws to investigate, i did so, and i was somewhat surprised after mr. cohen pleaded guilty that the federal government did not proceed on the areas in which it asked me to stand down. by that time, we were well on

our way in the financial investigation that ultimately led to subpoenas which the president himself published in a lawsuit he filed against me in the office and ultimately that long, but successful journey to the supreme court and for those who think this is about politics, i think it's important to remind folks that the review of the president's objections to our seeking his tax and other financial records were reviewed by two separate district courts, and twice by the united states supreme court all of whom found no evidence that politics was motivating our actions. >> did your office conclude that a stand alone felony charge for the hush money payments wasn't worth it because of so many uncertainties around the legal theory is that is why you were pursuing this larger issue that this is just one part of sort of how the trump organization either lied or -- or on their --

on their business records? >> well, i think, chuck, again, i don't want to get into our deliberations, but we have historically filed cases of false documentation elevating them to felonies when federal statutes were involved with regard to federal election law which was quite a specific area of law, but i think the question is not so much why didn't i do it or we did it, but why this district attorney is doing it, and that really requires us to be patient and to wait. this process isn't going to be accelerated by us talking about it and it's going to be moved by the court and i guarantee you the court will want this to move quickly. would this case be stronger? would you have brought this case yourself before you left office

had the alan weisselberg, the former financial officer for the trump organization cooperated? >> ultimately, mr. weisselberg, you know, did testify at trial and provided, i'm sure, relevant evidence. i think his cooperation perhaps was not what the district attorney's office hoped, but nonetheless, he was a key witness at trial and the jury beyond a reasonable doubt found the trump organization guilty of 17 counts, 17 felony counts. so i think his testimony was -- was very helpful, is my belief, but i think although i was not in the room, i think he did not provide full cooperation in testifying against the president himself. >> mark pomerantz who you brought in to help with this trump case, a former federal prosecutor, he was in private practice, you brought him in and i had him on the show in

february and he had a sweeping financial fraud case to -- to do that. had you? >> i don't want to get, chuck, into my deliberations and internal communications, but i can say this, where i, too, have green lit the continuation of the investigation toward indictment, i also understood, for reasons that were just specifically about the time that we had, the delays going to the supreme court, the delays occasioned by the southern district's request for us to stand down, covid was in the city during this investigative time period and had a materiel impact on our ability to get the grand juries to sit and entertain evidence. so from a time perspective, we had some unfortunate coincidences that kept us back not going as fast as we could go because we were trying to move as fast as we could, and

ultimately i knew, however, that because i was not able to be the district attorney at a time when all of the evidence was in that this was going to be district attorney bragg's call. i may have made a different call than the district attorney did on the case that we had or i had, but when one is out of office really it's the district attorney's prerogative to look at the case afresh. he did and then you see where he has pointed his team resulting in the indictment today. >> look, again, with all of the stipulations and caveats that we haven't read with the indictment, we know that the legal team will get this case thrown out for a couple of reasons. one will be claiming that the novel, legal theory that alvin bragg will be using to make a felony in state law, whether that is applicable here. there's the issue of michael cohen's testimony and there's the issue of the statute of

limitations whereas if you were the prosecutor which one of those three hurdles would you see to be the highest? >> well, i think this is obviously a case of great consequence and a case that's never happened before. so it's novel in and of itself. i think there's -- i think if i'm guessing about the president's strategy and it's only a guess and he'll have excellent lawyers, is that they will take a run at the law first perhaps on the question of whether or not the misdemeanors can be elevated and that's probably more question of law than a question of fact, and we'll take a run there first. it would not surprise me if the attorneys representing the former president would try to move into federal court on some ancillary action as they did with us, and to have that action somehow be reviewed or try to be reviewed on the federal side and have some impact, therefore on

whether the state court could go forward. for example, asking for a stay because there will be an election in the year and a half and those are avenues that i think that you'll see. of course, cohen will be tacked heavily and cohen worked for mr. trump and they obviously had a working relationship. so we often find in criminal cases that the witnesses who are involved aren't necessarily -- they're not priests or nuns. they are who they are in whatever organization they have. >> final question is this. -- >> i would add something else, chuck. >> go ahead. >> well i -- i -- i've got to say i was disturbed to hear the former president speak in the way he spoke about the district attorney bragg and even the trial court in the past week,

and i think if i were his lawyer and believe me, no one is called up to ask for my device and i would be mindful of not committing another offense which is interfering with or by threat or otherwise the operation of government, and i think that could take what i think is not a strongest case, when you add a count like that and put it in front of the jury and change the jury's mind about the severity of the case that they're looking at. >> likelihood that this trial happens before election day 2024? >> that depends, i think, entirely on the judge. the judge has had one trial with the trump organization. they're tough litigants to control, but he's going to want to set a firm trial date. he's going to want to maintain firm control over all the

parties and that could end up in some flare ups between the party and the court. i don't think the former president does himself any favors as it pertains to the ultimate outcome of this case if he's -- if he's making more enemies in the courthouse than he needs to. >> cy vance, former district attorney of manhattan, i appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise on this. when we come back. when we come back. what's the pololticali i'm yourur overly compmpetitive brbrother. check. psych! and i'm ababout to steal thisis game fromom you just like i i stole kelllly car in high h school. and i'm ababout to steal thisis game fromom you you got t no game dudude, that's a a foul! and i'm ababout to steal thisis game fromom you anand now you'u're ready to s settle the e score. game o over. and ifif you don't't have the riright home i insurance c cov, well, yoyou could enend up paying f for all thihis yours. so g get allstatate, and be e r protecected from m mayhem, well, yoyou could enend up paying f for all thihis yours. yeah, , like me. well, yoyou could enend up paying f for all thihis yours. ththanks, bro.o.

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before we get to that point. >> those motions and a trial will likely stretch well into 2024. this will have major implications, whether we like it or not, for governing in washington throughout this calendar year throughout 2023 and for the campaign year of 2024, west virginia senator joe manchin represents the state that voted for trump by nearly 40 points in 2020 and he has not said whether he plans to run for reelection next year or not or whether he will run for president on an independent ticket if they deep -- if he deems the party's too far to the left or right and the nation's leading centrist these days, senator manchin joins me now. senator, welcome back to "meet the press "qwest. >> hey, chuck. it's always good to be with you. >> there's always a lot to talk to you about, but i want to ask you the first thing, your reaction to the news that the former president, for the first time ever of any president has been indicted on a criminal charge? >> chuck, it's a very sad time

for america, and i feel like other people do, it's very sad for our country to have to go through this, and a segment of society who believes that maybe it's biassed that the system doesn't work for all, i would have to wait and see what comes out next week, but i would hope and pray that whatever comes forth that they've done due diligence and they're very, very accurate on what they're doing and understanding what the rule of law is that basically no one's above the law and no one should be targeted by the law, and we have to make sure that we understand that we have to come together. this country cannot -- we cannot be a house divided. as abraham lincoln said, a house divided cannot stand and we have to come together and the rule of law makes us different than any other place in the world. >> your republican colleagues are attacking this which only serves to go against what you've just been telling me.

john bar asso who is not a bomb thrower called it a political prosecution from a far-left activist and thom tillis said it doesn't pass the smell test. i focus on barrasso and tillis because i know you have a good relationship with both of them. to attack this now, doesn't that do exactly the opposite of what you're advocating? >> well, yeah. they have to understand, we -- again, i say we must come together. the american people want us to do our job. the more you talk about that, the more you make people pick a side. are they right or wrong? you give more credence to basically, is it biassed or not? does the rule of law work for all of us? let's wait until what comes out next week and let's see in which direction this goes and the bottom line it's a very sad time in america. you know, you have geopolitical unrest around the world and just think of the people that don't wish our society of our former democracy to work, whether it's china, russia or whoever.

they're looking and saying oh, my goodness, let's watch this melee unfold. as americans we work together and lead the challenges and we can aid the free world and come to the aid of our allies and have the same thirst that we have for the freedoms of democracy and that's what i keep working on and i talk to people around the country and they can't take it anymore. they're just tired and worn out. enough is enough, please, do your job. get a budget, live within your means and start getting this crippling debt down and get rid of inflation and give me energy that basically gives me security and also be able to invest in a new technology of the future and that's what we've been trying to do, chuck. >> senator, you sound like a presidential candidate and i don't just say that here. in this morning's washington post you openly admit you're thinking about it, you told the post today, if enough americans believe there is an option and the option is a threat to the extreme left or the extreme

right it would be the greatest contribution to democracy, i believe. you were asked if you would participate in a no-labels ticket, and you didn't rule it in or out, but like i said, what you just sounded like there. that sounded like what a presidential candidate says when they're trying to bring the country together. how serious are you about this? >> first of all, chuck, i've been involved in the great state of west virginia, it's always been about being a centrist in the middle and i'm socially row sponsible with most americans and they've been asked to pick a side. what you ask what i am going to do and what my political ambitions will be is to be in the united states and that's what i've seen happen over the period of time and i'm going to do whatever i can to have a voice in that middle that we can basically force both sides and

say wait a minute, you've gone to extremes and you have to find ways to solve problems. you can't solve them from the extreme right and the extreme left. you can't make people pick a side. what side are you on? i'll choose the left or the right or the d or the r because this one is want as bad as that one. neither one is not doing a good job, but one is better than the other side and we can change that dialogue and have a movement, chuck, and then we've done our job. >> 44% of americans this week said that they wanted joe biden not to run again. 25% would like to see him run again and there were 30% in the messy middle. where are you? would you like to see him run again or not? >> i've always said this, no matter who my president is whether it's a democrat or republican or whether it's someone i voted for or not or whether it's the same political party or not. once the people of america speak

and that's our president, then i'm going to do everything i can to help them be successful whether it's donald trump or whether it's joe biden. i've known joe biden for quite some time, and i've tried everything i can and i will continue to try to be a productive senator, and try to help my country move forward, but i've got to speak truth to power when i know that we can do better. what i know a piece of legislation that we wrote was intended to give us energy, security and lower prices and make us much more able to help our allies around the world and it's going in a different direction because they want to interpret it differently. >> do you think joe biden lied to you? >> i'm not saying that the president lied to me. i'm saying basically what we agreed on, what the president and i agreed on what this bill would do, it would bring energy and security and it would bring manufacturing back to america as quickly as possible and we would not be relying on a foreign supply chain such as china to run our transportation mode.

we talked about all of that. we would pay down debt for the first time in 20 years. we talked about all of that and we agreed exactly that's what it should do and now to have different parts of his administration basically administering it and writing rules and regulation and what they did is wrong and i'm going to fight that. you need to speak truth to power and i'm hopeful the administration will step forward and say we will do what the bill intended to do. >> let me ask you this, what will it take to endorse joe biden? you don't seem ready to do it, that's for sure. >> only in america does the next election start the day after the last election ended. i don't do that. i have a lot of work to do this year, and i'm going to work with everybody. let's get our budget under control. let's get our spending under control and let's make sure we bring down inflation and do the things that we're supposed to do

and if you're throwing bombs and attacking everybody for two years i think next year when it starts for january 1, there will be enough to attack and you don't need an extra year. >> bottom line, we don't know if you'll run for president next year in 2024? >> my filing date is january 15, 2024 and i'll make my decision maybe a little bit before that, but not until the end of the year, i can assure you. >> do you know if you'll be running as a democrat or something else? >> you know, the party identification is not going to change me, democrat, republican. having a d and an r should not change you as a person. i'm going to still fight for the things i do. can't i be a moderate centrist with whatever identification or no identification, i would think? i'm not going to be changing as a person. i've been doing this for a long time, and i'll continue to fight for the people of west virginia and the people of this country, and i'm a proud american. >> when people say you might be

a spoiler, what do you say to that? >> i would never intend to be a spoiler of anything. i would like to be a promoter of the united government, and a united government that basically has provided the greatest opportunities in the world. my great-grandparents came to this country for the opportunities it provided. i'm a product of that. i am very, very appreciative of that and i'll try to offer that to countless people in america and around the world. >> senator joe manchin, right now a democrat from west virginia and it is always a pleasure to get your perspective on the program. thank you for being here, sir. >> i enjoyed it. appreciate it. >> up next, donald trump's 2024 republican rivals quickly jumped to his defense even before they learned the (cecily) it's probably gonna take us a while to move this sign. (vo) time to get moving, because this offer won't last. switch to verizon and get welcomome unlimiteted

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democratic strategist stephanie cutter. i just want to put up one thing from one response from a senator they thought was kind of amusing to me about the indictment, brian schultz. you have to express your opinion before reading the indictment. anyway, just wanted to give him a shout-out there. by the way, senator, we'd love to have you on the show. kristen welker, now what? >> well, now what, this is going to be a month's long process that will likely stretch into 2024 legally speaking, at least and there's no doubt that it has hardened support around the former president. look at how his rivals are responding, but that's in the short term, chuck, and i think the big x factor is are there more indictments. this might make him stronger in the primary, but it could make him weaker in the general election. >> the trump campaign wants us

to think that this is helping and they've set up polling this morning, hey, look at our fund-raising. they're acting as if this is a celebratory moment for them. >> they're doing that publicly and they're doing it privately. they raised 4 million in the first 24 hours after the 25% from new donors. they had 16,000 volunteers sign up in the 24 hours after the indictment news. one thing that's important to understand and kristen is exactly right that the short term is very different than a general election calculation is that trump has always been someone who is trying to win the person directly in front of him, the minute, the hour, the day. so the idea that trump and his team are not thinking about what happens if i win this nomination and now we have a lot of voters who don't love voting for someone who has been indicted and that's truly not a calculation you would expect someone like trump to think of in the 48 hours after the news is broken. >> pat mccrory, your party seems to be saying, whatever reservations they may have

privately, they're not acting like it publicly. they're rallying around it. >> being former mayor, i hope they did triage because the d.a.s are out with a the layoff violent crime which is a big issue with the crypto and banking collapses, i hope this d.a. has this case for the sake of our country and did his triage and even vance said it's a novel idea on itself. i mean, that's risky for our country. i am surprised the other republican candidates -- i understand them saying this shouldn't be taken to court. what i don't understand is them going, even with that, is donald trump the person that wants to represent the values of the republican party, the character of the republican party especially when we as republicans are challenging the values of what's being taught in our schools and then we can't go and say donald trump is our leader because he is not representing the values that i think we used to stand for.

>> stephanie, how should the biden campaign -- look, politics, whether you like it or not you have to deal with the politics, if you're the biden campaign, you stay out of the way, and i think that's what the white house strategy is. they don't want to be part of this story, if they are forced to comment on it, the answer is simply the law applies to everybody, and we should trust our institutions, trust our legal system to get this right and not prejudge it and you don't even know what the judges are and the both sides presenting their evidence. this is going to be a long process and we need to set the parameters of how they engage early and we started to do that. >> i want to pivot with the conversation i had with joe manchin because there seems to be a group of folks that believe that trump's the nominee and biden is the nominee there will be a vacuum in the middle that is exploitable to actually win this election. do you buy that?

do you buy that that exists? >> no, i don't buy that, and you know, there -- i've been involved in a lot of presidential elections, if you ask that question at this point in a presidential race, are you in favor of this guy or this woman or the other guy or do you want a third candidate that is not a democrat or a republican, you will always get that third candidate rising above, but once you start to put names on it and actually talk about these people and what they've done that position changes dramatically. >> you're pretty involved with this no-labels situation. what's the likelihood this happens? >> i think there is a fairly good likelihood if the two candidates are biden and trump because the vast majority of people don't think they're the candidates to run this country in the future in the white house. we haven't seen that before. we haven't seen these numbers before. >> we shall see how that plays out. i think there will be a lot more

conversation about this going forward. i have to pause here. when we come back, states across the country are targeting transgender americans and the spike in a new (fisher investments) it's easy to think that all money managers are prpretty much h the same, but at fisisher investstments 'e cleaearly differerent. (othther money m manager) differenent how? you sesell high cocommission investmement productcts, righ? (f(fisher invevestments) nope. fifisher avoidids them. (other money manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investments) never at fisher investments. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in some hidden and layered fees. (fisisher investstments) nono. we strucucture our f feese do betteter when clilients do bebetter. that m might be whwhy most of r clclients come f from other r money manan. at fisher r investmentnts, w'e clearlrly differenent. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. -and i scored a goal on ashley. -that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. it's probably because of that flea and tick medicine you've been ordering from chewy. we are very proud of you. you never stop surprising us, bailey. right? i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report.

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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ welcome back. "data download" time it's no secret that today's gop only has one thing that unites the party around these days and that's the culture wars and they think it's the only way they can motivate their base. just take a look at how state legislatures around the country and the rapid pace that republicans have tried to pass laws that ban or restrict things that they deem different, at least personally and all of it is targeting the lgbtq community. let's start with this issue of banning transgender students from participating in high school books. there was no law in the books before 2020 that dealt with this. we are talking about one-half of 1% of the population identifies as trans and the number of students is even less. idaho is the first state and a burn of them have joined since and most republican legislatures that haven't passed one are

looking about passing a ban to do that on the issue of gender-affirming care, fewer states have done that, but since 2021 you've seen nearly a dozen and more republican legislatures are considering a ban legislation that would ban gender-affirming care in those states from those under 18. overall, the folks at the aclu have noted that there are 435 pieces of legislation introduced in the states that are targeting the lgbtq community and they're targeting in a negative way and when you look at it, even the issue of drag shows are being brought into this. the state of tennessee was the first state to restrict drag shows who could go and where they could be showcased. a federal judge on friday has already put a pause on that law and we'll see if it ever comes to fruition and guess what? 15 other states are already considering legislation targeting drag shows, and when

you look at the polling on this, it's a really one-sided polling and overall the majority of americans oppose these bans on gender-affirming care and they oppose these restrictions and drag shows and this opposition is made up only of democrats and a large majority of republicans oppose these bans and it does unify the republican base, but it may turn off swing voters. before we go to break, baseball is back, and in 1996 tim russert sat down with three-time mvp, ten-time world series champion yogi berra who for many people was more well known off the field for his many yogi-isms? you have eight entries into the bartlett's book of quotations, more than voltaire. let me go through a few of them on the screen and get your understanding, the first, how can you think and hit at the same time? >> i don't think you can. you have too much to worry about with the pitcher out there.

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welcome back. in september of 2019 california became the first state to pass a law that allowed college athletes to be paid for their own name, image and likeness essentially to make money off of that. ail became shorthand for many a college sports fan. the supreme court ruled 9-0 deciding restrictions on education-related benefits,

violated antitrust law and it has transformed college sports ever since. we have a patchwork of state laws creating chaos for 1100 member institutions and 500,000 student athletes and the question is whether congress will intervene and when. and now, perhaps reluctantly, the ncaa is wanting congress to act and this week the house subcommittee held its first congressional hearing on college sports and this issue of compensation. the first hearing that they held in nearly two years. joining me now is the president of the ncaa. they hired a former republican governor of massachusetts charlie baker, he join us from houston where sadly for me uconn defeated the university of miami setting up the huskies to play san diego state which advance to their first ncaa final after a thrilling buzzer beater over florida atlantic. governor baker, welcome to "meet the press."

>> good morning, chuck. how are you? >> i am good. so let me start with that hearing with congress, this issue with name, image and likeness and the patchwork of state laws. what exactly do you want congress to do here? i know normally you wouldn't want intervention, but given world trade center going on what is it you're hoping congress does? >> i think you pointed out the intervention issues associated with state going in a variety of different directions and the pressure that puts on conferences and schools because we do want to have sort of what i would describe as competitive equity here and a level playing field and i think congress has a chance to do whald describe as consumer protections here. one athletic director put it pretty well when they said that the only thing that's true right now about nil is that everybody lies and that puts families and student athletes and schools and athletic departments and anybody else in a play where they don't

know what the market is, and i think we should have a public registry, and i think we should have what i would describe as the uniform standard contract and this is all things we've talked to folks and congress about, and i was thrilled to have them have a hearing on this. >> the professional leagues essentially have players associations which do everything you're describing, a registered agent, there is transparency and there are rules to the road. so would that be a better way to go about this? collectively bargaining with student athletes? >> keep in mind that you have 500, as you point out, you have 520,000 student athletes and the vast majority of them participate in programming at most of the 1100 schools that is what i would describe as the traditional way that people think about college athletics and it's a chance for people to

grow and develop and sort of find their teammates and learn about accountability and discipline. that environment is not the one that would make the most sense for something like that. in fact, the student athlete who spoke at that hearing had, kailey mudge, the softball player of florida state m pretty clear that she didn't think turning them all into employees was a good idea and she also said that this is something that we need to get right. >> let me play something charles bshgly said on "60 minutes." let me play it for the audience. >> it is a travesty and a disgrace. i am so mad now how we can mess up something that is so beautiful. in the next three to five years we'll have 25 schools that's going to dominate the sports because they can afford players and these schools who can't afford or won't pay players are going to be irrelevant. >> governor, i'll make a

confession, i'm a huge of miami fan and i love that football program and i'm sitting that as a fan, ooh, gosh, there will be haves and have notes and then i hope my team is as have. they'll have what barkeley describes, two major conferences and they'll control the sports and everyone else looks like the club sport or d-3, is that where we're headed. hat this is the weekend of the final four in men's and women's basketball. the first-time ever, no number one, number two or number three seed that made it to the final four. i think maybe in some respects people need to sit back a little bit and take a look at what's really going on out there, and i love charles barkeley as much as everybody else does, and i think in some ways the demonstrated competitive equity that we saw in the basketball tournaments on both the men's and women's side was a big statement about the fact that there are a lot of terrific athletes out there and a whole variety of ways that

they can be supportive and nil plays a big role in that. >> ironically, nil and the transfer portal which some people have said has been terrible for college sports isn't the reason why college basketball is so competitive? >> it's a big part of it and the other thing i would say about the transfer portal, we should remember that if we look at the number of kids, i think in some respects because of the covid pandemic who have been transferring and are not athletes those numbers are up dramatically, some going on with the sports and the transfer portal are a reflection of what's going on with kids in college generally coming out of the pandemic, and i think people should keep that in mind. we addressed this earlier sort of on the side, but directly, what do you believe the impact would be if california passes a lot that says student athletes are employees of universities. they're a division 1 programs and what do you believe that would mean to division 1 sports?

>> first of all, we should all be careful about getting too far ahead of ourselves with hypotheticals, but what i would say is i've talked to schools about this and the big message is this is true. everyone pays attention to the big-time sports that they see on tv and the vast majority of college sports don't look like that and at most schools the athletic program actually cost them money. they don't make money on sports and they offer it because it's a big piece of how they provide an experience for the student athletes and i think many people have done the analysis and they basically said it would be very hard for them to maintain the current programming they have, and a lot of the sports that they offer would have to go club or go away, and i don't think these are idle threats based on the conversations i've had with school leaders and administrators. it has been a banner couple of years for women, college sports. we've seen huge ratings in the ncaa women's tournament and caitlin clark is arguably the

most famous basketball player right now in either tournament, men or women and yet the women, you do not put the women's tournament up as a separate media rights deal. is that going to change? the last deal lumped it in with every other ncaa sport, will you separate out the women's tournament? >> i think the women's tournament this year has been sensational both in terms of the viewership and also in terms of the quality of the play. last year's player of the year is boston, and this year's player of the year caitlin clark face off against each other in the most-watched game in the nca assem final which is just terrific. i think this is something that's definitely on our radar. the program is at exactly the right time peaking here because the contract is up. we do have an opportunity to put it out separately and we're going to work really hard to make sure that those student

athletes and those programs get what i describe as what they should get. >> the bottom line is you have this job at perhaps the most consequential time in the history of the ncaa. charlie baker, thank you for coming on. >> thanks, chuck. appreciate it. >> 2700 people have died in the last few days. if you want to help these communities in rebuilding please consider donating to the organizations and we believe they are doing good work. that's all we have for today. thanks for watching. we'll be back next because it's sunday, 's "meet the it

devastation across the south and midwest. at least 30 people killed in those powerful sto