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expert rodrigo aramburu, the head of rocket lawyer takes a look at how the legal profession is adapting to ai, and a mac and cheese millionaire on her comfort food fortune. that's this week on press here. good morning everyone. i'm scott mcgrew. i was reading a bloomberg article recently about ai and electrical power, and that article said open. i was looking for five gigawatts of power to run a server farm, and i had no idea how much five gigawatts actually was. so i looked it up and it turns out a city like miami uses about five gigawatts of power. miami. that is a huge amount of electricity. and that's just one proposed server farm. openai reportedly wants to open dozens of them. the washington post reporting, trying at least to get us an idea as to what ai power usage is like reporting a single ai

generated email uses as much electricity as 14 light bulbs do in an hour. i asked data expert rodrigo aramburu to join us this morning. he is the co-founder of voltron data. rodrigo. good morning. can i start with the basics on this? why does i need so much electricity? yeah, no, of course. and thank you for having me, scott. it's really basically what are computers doing and how are they processing data and how are they doing the things that they do for us. and really it's just electricity, right? we have electrons flowing through a computer. and that requires electricity to run. that ends up writing your email for you, that ends up writing new docs or anything that you're asking chatgpt to do for you, help you plan a vacation, and so on and so forth. so it's that and i would imagine cooling as well, but mostly it's just these electrons going through chips. and we just have so many of them that this is what somebody

needs, a city's worth of electricity to do. it's that big. yeah. it it really is. so when you think about there's two sides basically of what's happening with regards to openai or any of these large scale, what we call foundational models, the gpt and so one of it is we're training it, training it. you can think about the way you send or you yourself, like as a child went to school. and it takes a lot of time. we're condensing that time pretty aggressively, and we're doing it on on lots of computers. they're actually hundreds of thousands of these gpus out of nvidia that are running. and each one of those gpus is particularly power hungry. so when you have hundreds of thousands of them working in unison, right, you are training this system to learn how to write emails or whatever it is that you necessarily are asking your your gpt to do. and that's just a lot of energy, right? i think you were mentioning, right. the city of miami. i've heard the city of new york multiple times being what these what these training models are. it's a ton of

energy. so it's not just i even in before ai, we were dealing with data sets and data bases that take a huge amount of electricity to run. i was reading somewhere nasa's got a new ocean observing satellite in development. they're talking about something like 100tb a day, sorting through that kind of data requires just a staggering amount of power. yeah, that's that's entirely right. we're producing really, really large scale data sets. we're utilizing a lot of energy to be pushing and managing processing and prepping that data. a lot of that data now is being pushed and prepped specifically for ai systems. and i'm really glad that we're finally talking about energy. this is a problem i've cared about for over ten years. and why i started working on this, which is how is it that you can perform tasks? that's what we're doing, right? everything's just trying to do some sort of job for the lowest amount of energy. the fewest watts possible, to be able to perform that task. and so we were actually working with a retailer, not that long ago where by adopting these gpus for

example, for large scale data processing, they were able to reduce their footprint from 1400 servers. that's 1400 servers down to 14 servers and schaar a gpu servers, which is what they were utilizing. those 14 servers per server requires more energy, but in aggregate it's dramatically less right. you get an energy saving, you get land savings, you get all sorts of reduced footprints, and you're doing that through software, right? if i'm the hardware engineer, i'm trying to think of how can i make my, you know, my gpu run cooler, run with less current, that kind of thing on the software end, you're trying to beat that problem even before it hits my hardware. yeah, that's totally correct. so basically, what's been happening for the longest time, let's think about computer science. our chips were getting two times faster every two years. we called this moore's law. right and back to the matter is, we can't necessarily expect our software to get two times faster every two years because of just

reaching limitations of physics. and so what happens is i'm not getting two times more energy efficient as my problem gets bigger, i'm actually becoming less energy efficient. and that's just ballooning out of proportions to the point where we have some customers that fundamentally can't acquire energy for their data centers in the northeast. now they're just out. there's no energy budget to go around. well, that's going to be my last question is, you know, rodrigo is predict forward five years. are we as we continue to grow, are we going to be able to build power fast enough to feed all the other things we're building? yeah, i think that it's basically going to be a multi-pronged approach. there's no other way to do this. and so we're going to probably have to figure out how do we generate more energy capacity through a variety of different initiatives? i've heard things as interesting, if you will, as modular fission reactors, which are small scale fission reactors to be able to support data centers. but i really think it's about how can software engineers

understand hardware better so that we can do more with less, because we're just in a reality where if we don't understand how to become more efficient with our usage and the writing of code to be able to require less energy, we'll just never keep up. rodrigo aramburu is with voltron data. i appreciate your data. rather, i appreciate you joining us this morning. i also spoke about this issue, by the way, with venture capitalist mike schroepfer from giga scale capital as part of our sand hill road podcast. and you can find that wherever you find your podcast, press here. we'll be back in just a minute. californians, if you've been diagnosed with mesothelioma or asbestos lung cancer, choose the right law firm by asking, what are your highest verdicts? what experience do you have? how many lawyers are on staff? how many clients have you represented? speak to whites and luxembourg at 800 cancers to get unmatched answers. it's the biggest

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neighborhood grocery outlet today, because this offer is available only while supplies last. grocery outlet bargain market. welcome back to press here. my next guest is charlie moore, head of san francisco's rocket lawyer, which has been offering online legal help for many years now. the legal advice doesn't change much, but with the rise of ai, the way it's doled out probably has. charlie, good morning. let's start with your ai that you're using. is this something you developed, or is this something a wrapper that's been put on top of, like google, gemini or chatgpt? good. good morning scott. great to see you again. our ai is in partnership with google cloud. however, we actually ground the ai. it's a technical term with our own data. and rocket lawyer has been making legal services affordable for people. for as you said, many years now, this is actually our 16th year. so we

have tons of data. and i think, as you know, really good ai and useful ai really starts with data and you insulate that away from google in some way. right? because what i discussed with my lawyer, whether it's my ai lawyer or my actual human lawyer, i want to keep it just between me and the machine or me and the person. yeah, absolutely. and especially in legal, it's very important. data privacy is something we take extremely seriously at rocket lawyer. and so we don't share any personally identifiable data with any partner as a matter of fact, what's your approach to ai? what are you thinking about? yeah. great question. so we're really thinking about and a lot of ways it's back to our core mission, scott, which is to make law more affordable and simpler for people. and what better way to do that than to make it conversational? so i really think that apps for the next ten years, you know, going backward, ten years, it was really making

your apps mobile, being able to use them on any device. now it's really about making apps conversational, in our opinion, especially in something as personal as legal services. and so we really think that if your app and your user experience isn't conversational over the next decade, it's going to be obsolete. everything that can be conversational will be conversational, and that's really where gen ai is an enormous breakthrough. i would imagine that most, you know, historically, most of your business has been reasonably routine. it might be exotic to those of us who are not lawyers, but a simple will or, you know, a i want to apply for a business license, that sort of thing. i can handle pretty easily because, yeah, it's done that before. yeah. and i'll say something about routine and legal. it's sort of like which which party you are. the ham and egg breakfast, if you know that one, you know, for the pig. it's not it's not routine. right. and

so when amber anybody gets involved in a legal situation, the personalization of it really getting to know the person and their unique situation is everything. and that's really the data. and so now we can use ai and use a conversation. for example, our rocket copilot. if you're starting a business, it asks you simple questions about yourself, your situation, and then it takes that information and delivers a very personalized experience for you. does ai allow you to expand into places you haven't been, or offer more services that you haven't offered? because i can understand, you know, i'm just making this up. japanese law better than than someone trying to crack a book on it. i certainly think that gen ai is already helping us to expand. one of the unique things about rocket lawyer scott is that it's difficult to expand outside your home market. law is local. it's based on language. yeah, exactly. able to successfully do

that over decades. now we operate. i just got back from from europe. as a matter of fact, we operate in europe. we operate in french and dutch in spanish. we operate all over the united states and also in latin america, in brazil, in portuguese. and so this is a next sort of accelerator to our platform that certainly you're absolutely right with gen ai, it can understand parse out the language, it can provide local knowledge and the local jurisdiction. but i want to make something really, really clear. i can't practice law. law is a regulated industry. and so our approach to ai is not to replace lawyers and to replace you anticipated my next question. yeah, yeah. not to replace lawyers or replace human pros, but rather to empower them and so every step of the way rocket copilot what's really, i think, really cool about it is the customer is using the same tool that the pro that we can connect them with is using. and the last thing i'll say before your next

question is we've actually gotten regulatory reform. and so regulation is a big part of what's going on. and so now rocket lawyer is licensed to actually practice law as a software company in the state of arizona, which is a massive change in the way that legal is regulated in the united states. and we're very excited about that. i'm glad to hear that, that lawmakers are coming along with this, because it's often they're they're the tail end of this. now, i understand, you know, that we're not trying to replace lawyers here and that a lot of what is happening is routine stuff that would have been maybe handled by a paralegal, i suppose. but what about the future? i mean, i've talked to radiologists who understand that, you know, the day is coming where maybe the machine does a better job than they do. they'll still be some role for some of them. truck drivers is another great example. bus drivers that kind of thing. would you recommend somebody go to law school right now? well, i have that conversation with my son. okay. so who who is planning to go to law school. so the answer is

yes. i'm a i'm an optimist. and so when you rewind back when i graduated from law school many, many moons ago up at cal there there were there was talk about, you know, computers being the end of lawyers. et cetera. even back then, what's happened is there's just been a growth in the economy, a growth in the number of transactions and with scale. so i'm optimistic and i think really when you look at it more, most people who use rocket law have never hired a lawyer before. why? because they couldn't afford one. so the economy keeps growing, the population keeps growing, the scale of human endeavor keeps growing. and so the technology is actually, in my opinion, struggling to keep up with all the stuff that humans are doing. and we need these new technologies in order to handle the scale and handle the complexity. and there will continue to be a role for humans to play, especially in regulated industries. and one more quick point. you know, i think it's important to have oversight. and so i think our politicians and our and people in government

really need to look at ai and be thinking about what is the role of human oversight over the machines. and we really do need human oversight. and so those those roles will start to be identified. and i think will be what lots of people do in the future is serve as sort of human guardrails and oversight of the technology, which i think is very important. well, charlie, it's always a pleasure to talk to you about law and technology. et cetera. charlie moore, thanks ever so much this morning, charlie moore is the ceo of rocket lawyer and press here. we'll be back in a minute. car accident. berg wins. you've been hurt in a car wreck. you need a law firm that can give you the help you need right now. berg wins. one that stands up to the insurance company for all the money you deserve. berg wins one that takes low insurance offers and turns them into big settlements. berg wins. i'm

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two carat fancy lab bands, 1491 carat classic natural bands, 990 half carat natural 499 unlimited choices guaranteed to appraise for double the jewelry exchange. redwood city. and finally this morning, a sunday morning breakfast of mac and cheese. former lawyer turned entrepreneur aaron wade is the founder of the restaurant home room, famous in the san francisco bay area's east bay for macaroni and cheese with all kinds of toppings. she's also the author of a new book, mac and cheese millionaire building a better business by thinking outside the box. so, aaron, i'm assuming this box is the familiar blue kraft and macaroni and cheese box, right? that's what you're thinking outside of. yeah. i mean, for sure, a little bit of that and a little bit of outside the proverbial box of how to do. of course, of course. now, i will tell you that i made my kids years ago special, mac and cheese. i had gotten the recipe out of sunset magazine. i think it was for cheese, mac and cheese and they were absolutely bewildered. they they were like,

what? what? dad, can't we get the do we not go to a store and get mac and cheese? so clearly they had not had good mac and cheese. you call yourself the world's leading expert in mac and cheese. so and i realize this is not a cooking show. we don't have any props or anything else, but give me a brief idea as to how one properly makes mac and cheese. well, you know, i think the secret is, like most things, just making it fresh. and it's a really simple food, you know? and so you're just looking for things you can pronounce and understand, you know, pasta a fresh sauce with butter and milk and flour and cheese and, you know, and making it fresh. i mean, that's really the key. and the difference, i mean, to your point, your kids, like, didn't even recognize it. it doesn't even taste like the same food as as something from the box. although i have my own respect for the box, it's just a different thing. oh, no, it's just a different food. so why a mac and cheese restaurant of all things? did people say, wait, what a mac and cheese

restaurant? yeah. you know, i grew up eating my dad's mac and cheese, which was just the best version i had ever had. and i came home one night when i was working as a lawyer, and i was really unhappy, and i was just looking for something comfortin. and i live in oakland, and i realized, hey, why is there no restaurant i can go to with great mac and cheese? that felt just shocking to me. and so i made my dad's recipe, and as i was eating it, i was like, god, you know, there's restaurants dedicated to pizza, to burgers. why is there no restaurant dedicated to mac and cheese? and that was sort of my moment of, oh, there should be this restaurant and i should be the one to start it. yeah. i've never looked for it really on a menu. but now that i think about it, it seems like something that maybe in the kids menu, but it's not something, you know, that you're going to find at your average restaurant. yeah, it's always a side dish. it's never like the main thing. and so, you know, for us at home, it is the main thing like that is just what we do. so you wrote this book and it's more about just mac and cheese. it's more about than just the restaurant

business. these are ideas and business ideas that could be used aren't often used, but could be used in corporate america. right? yeah, absolutely. i mean, the book is really intended for, you know, anyone who, like me is just feeling sort of unhappy in their career and wondering why and looking for a fun and interesting story about how to do something different and more interesting or, you know, on a higher level, how to, you know, start or run a great business. like what is it that makes work more fun? because i think, you know, in addition to wanting to bring this really delicious mac and cheese restaurant to the public, i was really inspired to create a workplace that i really wanted to go to every day in a job i really enjoyed, and i didn't know how to do it. and so i sort of detail all the ridiculous stories of figuring it out in the book. and i wanted to share, you know, ten years of that experience and learning with other people. you say that hiring is like dating. you said they're eerily similar. in what ways? you know, i think they're almost exactly similar. you basically are stuck talking to another person to try to figure out if you would actually enjoy doing something really significant in life with them.

and, you know, i think what you learn by talking to people is, are they a good talker? you know, you don't learn like, what is it like to, you know, create a life with them. what do you you don't learn? what is it like to work with them? so i think, you know, i focus on how do you get at that. and the truth is to get at it, you need to work with them. you need to like have ways of getting at, you know, what are these person's values? do they align? are they actually good at the job that i'm hiring to do, hiring them to do? you got on a lot of people's radar with the washington post op ed about a customer that had been harassing one of your employees. can you briefly walk me through what your solution was? yeah, so we had, you know, our staff complained that they were being, you know, well, one in particular was harassed by a customer and came together because we have a really, really collaborative work culture that i, you know, detail in the book. and we decided, hey, can we solve this? i mean, this is a problem in all restaurants and a lot of businesses and got together and came up with a solution, and i'm happy to detail it. but yeah, it's become

a huge deal. i did write a viral washington post op ed about it, but also testified in front of the eeoc about it and is now used in restaurants and bars around the world. so i think it is really shows you know, the power of what happens when you do create a better workplace, when you do create a collaborative work culture, you can solve all sorts of problems that otherwise feel intractable, and then you have interesting ideas on, on, you know, disciplining. and employees say you somebody who's in late, i was talking with venture capitalist mike schroepfer, the other day. he used to be cto over at facebook, and he was describing this day where facebook just went down. i mean, they, they, they had, you know, they had put out a patch, knocked the entire company and the entire service offline. and one engineer stood up and said, that was mine. i did that, and they didn't punish him. they said, oh, great. okay. what is in there that we need to know about? and they didn't promote him or anything, but, you know, they praised him, you know, for saying, i you know what? i knocked facebook off of the planet earth. that is a much more creative way of dealing as

opposed to, you know, suspensions and things where somebody would say, i they'll never figure it out. yeah, totally. so, you know, we this was something i, you know, took from my lawyer days as i was trying to figure out, you know, what do we do to, like, improve bad behavior, right. because traditional punishment is just not super effective. and so i borrowed this idea of restorative justice from my time as a lawyer, where the idea isn't to punish someone who's done something wrong, but to get them to make it right. so, you know, to your point with that facebook employee, right? like that person, that is what you want. you want someone to own their stuff. you want them to feel like they are going to be part of the solution and making it better. you don't want them to hide. like if they had just punished that guy or just immediately fired them. like he's probably the best person to help solve that problem, right? and so same, that's how we would do it. you know, if someone's late instead of, you know, giving them a write up, we would sit down and be like, who is impacted? how are you going to make it better for them? and it really it changes the whole like, culture of an organization. now you ended up

selling these restaurants to a large, you know, restaurant company and, and my understanding of the restaurant business largely comes from the movie ratatouille. so i think most people there about it. right. you know, selling to big restaurant. oh yeah. you know, i mean, i am grateful. i think the thing that they have been hyper committed to is leaving the, you know, my dad's original recipe intact and making each mac and cheese to order. so i think that's sort of the most, you know, critical piece of the equation. but yes, you know, it is different. selling a company is a bit like putting up your kid for adoption. i say, you know, you raise them for ten years and then you give them to someone else, to you know, so it's a hard thing to do. but yeah, i think like i said, luckily the food is, which is the biggest part is same as it ever was. and you got to put millionaire on the title of your book. yeah. and, you know, it opened up, i mean, for me it was really about i was less excited to scale the number of units of the restaurant. that just wasn't my own personal goal. but i was like, hey, we've come up with

some really cool ways of doing business, and i am excited for those to scale. and i want to talk to people about it, and i want to teach about it, and i want to write this book. so it's what freed me up to do this and be here today. all right. you mentioned kids in your dad's recipe. so i have a recipe for you. and this is from. right? this is from me, ten year old growing up in michigan. yeah. now you you really should use kraft macaroni and cheese, which we establish is not a bad thing. but maybe you can substitute you make that and then you take hot dogs and you cut them like little coins. right into the mac and cheese. and then you put a big squirt of ketchup in the middle. and that is a midwestern delight. and so i, i hope you will give it a try sometime. i absolutely will. and for whatever it's worth, we used to have one at the restaurant, which was hot dogs but topped with potato chips, so a slight variation, but i mean also delicious, right? and then the ketchup adds that, sort of that saltiness and sweetness. excellent. fantastic. well, aaron wade, i appreciate you joining us this morning. thank you ever so much. yeah. thanks for having me. aaron wade is the

founder of homeroom and the author of mac and cheese millionaire. we'll be back in just a minute. we keep seeing every night the big ticker going up of all the money you save, whether it's work, family or finances. kris has your back. that's when i said this is not resolved. i'm going to call kris. you responded so quickly. nbc bay area responds with chris chmura. hey faithful, you're invited to come watch the game with us for sunday night football in the city. december 1st at thrive city in san francisco from 5 to 8:30 p.m. rsvp at nbcbayarea.com. slash football night. new electric trains are coming september 21st, making your travel between san francisco, san mateo and san jose faster than ever. making your journey a first class experience with customer friendly amenities and more frequent trips change the way

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