. >> this sunday, finding common ground. >> something i hope we can do no matter who you voted for. to see each other not as adversaries, but as fellow americans. bring down the temperature. >> it's time to put the divisions of the past four years behind us.

it's time to unite. >> in this deeply divided nation, how do we talk to one another and bridge the divide? >> what i really want is all the vitriolicness, the ugliness, the threats, the violence, the pitting us against each other to please stop. >> we're in a time of very divided government and a very partisan atmosphere in washington. i wish it were not. >> what is the path forward? >> a scary time in america right now. >> things are just not going well. >> we are in a moral crisis right now, and it won't get better unless we act. >> my guests this morning, republican senator james lankford of oklahoma and democratic senator raphael warnock of georgia, the only two clergy members serving in the u.s. senate. joining me for insight and analysis are presidential historian doris kearns goodwin, russell moore, the editor-in-chief of christianity today, and nbc news correspondent antonia hylton.

welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press". [ music ] >> from nbc news in washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with kristen welker. >> good sunday morning. we begin with the question, can americans keep talking to each other even when they disagree? with political polarization at an all-time high, is it even possible? a record-high 80% of u.s. adults believe that americans are greatly divided on the most important values. just 18% believe the country is united. americans today dislike and distrust those from opposing political parties more than they did in the past. growing shares in each party describe those in the other party as more close-minded, dishonest, immoral, and unintelligent than other americans. nearly two-thirds of americans say they always or often feel exhausted when thinking about politics. 55% feel angry. just 10% say they always

or often feel hopeful. in his first inaugural address, as civil war threatened to break the country apart, abraham lincoln famously said, "we are not enemies but friends. we must not be enemies. though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection." over the decades, american presidents facing a divided country have returned to lincoln and called for americans to talk to each other. >> we don't have to call each other names anymore. we have honest differences. we don't have to be mad. we don't have to be angry at each other on a human level. but we got honest differences. >> sometimes our differences run so deep, it seems we share a continent but not a country. we do not accept this, and we will not allow it. >> it's one of the few regrets of my presidency that the rancor and suspicion between the parties has gotten worse instead of better.

i have no doubt a president with the gifts of lincoln or roosevelt might have better bridged the divide. and i guarantee i'll keep trying to be better so long as i hold this office. >> to take us through where we stand, i'm joined by my colleague, nbc news political correspondent steve kornacki. steve, break it down for us. >> yeah, kristen, i guess you could say there's consensus, but the consensus is on how fundamentally divided we are as a country. again, you showed this a minute ago. this isn't even about issues. this is just about the basic values we have as americans. do you think we're united or greatly divided on those values? eight out of ten saying we are greatly divided on values. and this cuts across party lines. you can see it right here. democrats, republicans, independents, very few of any of them say we are united on values. and just to put this in some context, it doesn't have to be this way. it wasn't always this way. this right here, you're looking at numbers right after 9-11. obviously, that's an extreme

moment in our history. but again, look at the unity the country was feeling at that moment. and two decades later, look how far those numbers have descended since 9-11. so some context, some perspective there. again, you get to the issue then of how each side of the divide looks at each other. and again, what you see here are numbers that tell you this goes beyond policy differences. this goes beyond just basic disagreements about issues. asking here, you're asking each party about what they think of the other party. so you're asking democrats, do you think that republicans respect democratic institutions? not many democrats say that about republicans. not many republicans say that about democrats. do you think the other party governs honestly? almost no democrats, almost no republicans say that about the other party. you see it here, too, on the question of tolerating different types of people. so the view that each side has of the other, it's deep, deep suspicion, hostility between the two parties, between the two sides of the divide. how does this play out

in our elections? how did it play out in november? we talk about the different demographic divides that have been driving elections. now, gender, one of them, this goes back decades. we've really had a gender gap since 1980. in this election, trump winning men by 12, harris winning women by 8, a gender gap of 20 points. third straight election, the gender gap was at least 20 points. we see it on marriage. married voters, heavily for trump, unmarried, heavily for harris. we see it among white voters, not so much yet with nonwhite voters. we're keeping an eye on that. college degree -- without a degree, trump wins by 34 points, white voters with a degree, harris by 8. an enormous gap right there. and then you could take a look right here as well in terms of how this would look on the map. these are all the counties in the country. this is over 3,100 counties, and you think of those demographic divides, trump cleaning up with blue-collar voters, white voters without college degrees. you see that in a lot of rural areas, a lot of small population counties all over the country.

look at all of that red. meanwhile, democrats doing well with voters with college degrees, suburbanites, city dwellers. so you see the democratic base is much more narrow geographically in sort of population-dense areas. that's what the divide looks like there. and you just see within this, look at this, the number of blowout counties, where there's at least a 50-point margin in the presidential race, a fourfold increase in the last generation. we can reduce this, though, to a very microscopic level, precinct level. these are areas within cities and towns. we might have found the two most polar opposite demographically precincts in the country. i just want to show you them here. one is hyde park, chicago. this is upscale. this is where barack obama's from. high median income. everyone has a high school degree. look at this. more than three-quarters have a postgraduate degree in this precinct. harris wins it overwhelmingly. other side of the divide here. take a look here. this is panther, west virginia, mcdowell colony, one of the poorest in the country. as you can see here, not even half the residents with a high school diploma,

nobody with a college degree here. and donald trump wins this by 92 points. totally, totally far apart. if there's one silver lining maybe we can see when it comes to polarization, though, just quickly, it is this. there is less overall racial polarization coming out of this election. go back to 2016. trump won white voters by 20. clinton back then won nonwhite by 53. that was a 73-point gap. this time, 15-31. the racial gap narrowed this election. donald trump did much better with latino voters, asian-american voters. we do have less racial polarization, but we still overall, kristen, obviously have a ton of polarization. >> yeah, the numbers really tell the tale of just how divided we are. steve kornacki, thank you so much. >> and joining me now are the only two ordained ministers in the senate, democratic senator raphael warnock of georgia and republican senator james lankford of oklahoma. welcome back to "meet the press" to both of you. >> thank you. good to be back again. >> great to be with you. >> thank you both for being here.

it is so great to have you both here for this bipartisan conversation, and we really want to focus on how we can restore bipartisanship in washington and also those conversations across america that just aren't happening. you are two senators who care deeply about bipartisanship, and it comes at a time when we are very fractured here in washington as a nation. i wonder if you can take me behind the scenes, and senator warnock, you can begin. do you all have conversations about how you can restore bipartisanship? are those conversations happening? >> absolutely, and i can tell you that for me, and i'm sure senator lankford would agree, bipartisan work is as basic as the american covenant, e pluribus unum, out of many, one. and so, you know, we have differences of opinion, but the issue is our humanity and trying to build and strengthen the american family. that's the spirit

with which i come to this work. it's informed by my years as a pastor. i still lead my church, and i'm deeply honored to work with senator lankford this week, and in recent days we've been trying to think about ways we can do more work together. >> senator lankford, tell me about some of those conversations. how do you start the conversation of how you can do more work together? >> so what's interesting is i really don't think of this as bipartisan work. this is just american work. most people don't think of themselves first as republican, democrat, independent. they think of them first as just human beings and neighbors and people that work and families. and so really what we're talking about is how do people who disagree sit down and figure it out? that's where we are. unfortunately, washington, d.c. is a mirror to the country that the country doesn't really like. everybody looks at washington, d.c. and says, "those people yell at each other and everything else." and i typically will smile at folks when they say, "those crazy people yell at each other." it's like, "what was thanksgiving like when your whole family got together last year?" what happens is family members get together that aren't

together all the time. they see their differences, and they have arguments. i was like, "well, that's d.c." that's what's happening, people that disagree. but the difference is we're not supposed to just come here and just figure out how to be bipartisan. we're supposed to figure out how to solve problems. and two people that disagree or 100 people that disagree or 435 in the house that disagree have got to be able to sit down and be grownups and say, "let's talk this out. let's figure it out." >> do you feel like you're in a minority of people who care about figuring it out right now in washington? because certainly across the country, as we're saying, relationships, conversations are fractured. >> yeah, conversations are fractured. i don't think i'm in a minority that want to figure it out. i think i'm in a minority that has hope we will figure it out. i think a lot of people just lost hope this gets better. and i think that's the emotion of the country is they want it to be fixed, but they can't figure out how it's going to actually happen. the latest poll i saw was over 70% of the people in the country don't like the direction of the country. that's not a political statement. it's an emotional statement. like what's happening to us as americans? and my basic statement is,

well, americans are all made up of individual americans. when each person decides they're going to do a different, america decides they're going to do a different. >> let me give you some more polls, because you're absolutely right. almost two-thirds of people say they feel exhausted when they think about politics. fifty-five percent say they feel angry. more than 60% say having political conversations with people they disagree with is stressful and frustrating. senator warnock, how did we get here? >> well, you know, as a pastor, i've sat in my study many times with families that are struggling. and i think what's important is to remember that you're family. and i think that that what we're dealing with is the fundamental assault on that basic understanding that we are the american family and all families have a complicated story. you know, we sort of gloss over things, but just beneath the surface at the family reunion, their stories are parts of our family life that, you know, we may not necessarily want to talk about,

but it's all there. and the issue is remembering that you're still family. you have differences, but we sit together, we work it out. now, a lot of these differences are structural. i do agree that washington, in some ways, in many ways, is a reflection of the country. but there are some structural issues like gerrymandering, partisan racial gerrymandering that fracture the country, the ways in which people's voices have been squeezed out of their democracy. i think there are many issues. i'll pick one fraught issue like gun violence. there's a fox news poll that said 86% of americans believe that we ought to have just basic background checks when it comes to gun violence. and yet we can't seem to get legislation that reflects anything near that level of agreement between the left and the right among ordinary citizens. we have to fix that. >> senator lankford, what do you make of an issue like gun violence, where we are seeing over and over again, these school shootings that rip schools, rip communities apart?

do you think there will be a time when some -- and there have been moments of bipartisanship on this issue, but few and far between. do you think there's space for something larger getting done? so let's go back to the most basic issue. gun violence issues really break down family issues. very often when you have someone that ends up being a violent attacker somewhere, you go back and say, what was the family life? what was happening in their schools? what was happening in that environment? and so we want to say just pass a law and that fixes it. but there are many issues in america you don't just pass a law and fix. it's a heart issue. racism is a heart issue before it's a legislative issue. now, there are legislative issues where you say we've got to make sure everything's fair, balanced opportunity for everybody. but it's a heart issue at the core of it. i started several years ago just asking people a simple question. "has your family ever invited a family of another race to your home for dinner?" and most of the people caught me -- of all races -- and say, "well, i have friends of other races." i was like, "that's not what i asked." in your home, has a family of another race ever been in your home and shared a meal?

and most people i talked to of every race of americans have said, "no, that's never happened." well, that's a barrier literally at our front door where our kids aren't growing up, seeing families of other races around the kitchen table and just having normal conversations. that's a heart issue and a family issue to be able to work through. same thing with gun violence and other things to try to figure out what's happening in our culture and our society that we've got to break down to see this kind of anger and hatred. >> well, another issue that you both worked on -- go ahead, senator. >> well, you know, look, it is a heart issue. it's a family issue. but we've got to address the fact that this doesn't happen where there are this, you know, there are family issues, there heart issues. this is kind of bipartisan conversation that happens between two christian brothers who have deep love and respect for one another. but, you know, i think we would agree that there's more work that can be done in this area. >> sure. >> and we need more honest conversations like this for that to happen. >> well, speaking of more work that needs to be done, i want to talk about another big issue certainly that

you've been very involved in, senator lankford, immigration. you were very close to getting a bipartisan immigration deal. and i know you were working hours nonstop to try to get this done. it fell apart in the end. we won't get into all of the reasons why. but you were actually censured by republicans in oklahoma, in your home state. what does that say? and what message does it send to people who say there's no hope for the bipartisan deals? big bipartisan deals. >> and that again, we break down the issue on. it's not necessarily bipartisan. it's how do we solve the problem? >> yeah. >> there's a problem. how do we get together with people we disagree with and figure out how to be able to solve that? that's the ultimate issue. and the focus a lot of times here in washington, d.c., is how to do bipartisan. when you get home, again, the conversation is not that way. it's how do you actually just solve the problem on it? and we talk a lot about bipartisan disagreements on it. but quite frankly, democrats have fights with democrats. republicans have fights with republicans. most of the most heated battles that i face are with other republicans on it. and then we'll sit down and talk

about something and say, where are we going to find common ground on things? but that's just the nature of where our politics are. and i think it still goes back to this core issue. americans feel like things are broken. and when you begin to lose hope and you feel like things are broken, you get angrier. >> well, yeah. speaking of that anger, i mean, senator warnock, do you feel like there's a public anger and almost mistrust of people working together, reaching across the aisle to find that common ground? >> i think the whole country has what i call a low-grade fever. you know, some mornings you wake up and you just don't feel really well. you can't even put your finger on it. we've been through four years of covid and people, you know, the early years of that, the early months of that, having to shelter in, all the trauma around that. 20 years of what felt like an endless war, and then demagogues who exploit this moment through exacerbating the fault lines,

the cultural fault lines of division in our country. and i think people just feel the full weight and the trauma of all of that. and what i would encourage us to do, especially in this season, is to look toward one another rather than to figure out -- you know, rathther than inking about how we can hurt one another, how we can pray with one another rather than prey on one another. and, you know, i still have a great hope for this country, our ideals of unity, of inclusion, of equality. and the american story is about pushing us closer towards the ideals. and there have been moments when the democracy has expanded, there have been moments when it's contracted. but any woman will tell you that even contractions are necessary for birth. and so i remain hopeful even in this moment. but it's going to be hard work. >> senator lankford, talk to members of the republican party. what is your message to them this hiday season as we prepare to begin

a new chapter here in washington and as a country together? what do you think republicans can do better to try to bring about the type of bipartisanship, the work, the spirit that you have been so dedicated to? >> i think the key thing is there, let's identify what the problem is and let's figure out how to be able to solve it. and we find great differences across the country and in different regions. a republican in oklahoma is different than a republican in new york or in maine or in washington state. it's just different. they think differently, though we're all in the same party. so even within parties, there are differences of opinion and there's differences of opinion between republican and democrat. we live next door to each other. we figure out how to be able to work it ouas neighbors. we've got to be able to figure out how to be able to work it asas well. now, that doesn't mean we give away our values. we don't have to give away values. i'm always looking for where do we have common ground. compromise is a word that a lot of people throw arou on us. i understand what you're trying to say, but i think what people hear, though, especially republicans, is compromise means give up your values. i don't think you should give up your values. i don't think i should give my values. but there's a lot of areas

where we may have 80 or 70% that we do agree on. that's a common ground issue as americans. let's do that. and then as americans think and pray about the next big problem, we'll find that area of common ground again and let's keep moving. but the worst thing we can do is do nothing. if i make this simple statement, every single issue that we face, we can either do nothing, something or everything. now, problems are so bad -- debt is so big, we're so out of control. immigration is so out of control. everybody in my party says, "let's do everything. we've got to fix it all. we've got to fix it all right now." but washington's terrible at doing everything. we're terrible at it. trying to get everything done on it, but we can't do just nothing. we have to find the something that can get done so we can at least make progress and americans can feel progress is being made, we're doing something. we're not just sitting there complaining about the problem. we're actually going to try to solve this. >> kristen, i think the problem comes when politicians center themselves rather than the people. if you center the people, you have a shot at getting the policy right. >> what is your messagege to demoats? what do democrats need to do better and differently moving forward?

>> well, look, you've got to listen to the people. we just had an election. and i think we have to take some time to listen to what the folks are saying, what the people are saying, everyday people are saying and continue to build on our values. look, i've had success doing bipartisan work, working with people like ted cruz. he and i did legislation together. i've worked with republican senators in alabama to defend and support farmers. a lot more bipartisan work happens very often than you think. >> right. >> sometimes it's not talked about because it doesn't necessarily fit -- >> that's not news. >> i'm trying to be kind. >> news likes one person doing this and one person doing this. >> we do more work maybe than people see. >> all right. well, wonderful point there. and today, this bipartisan conversation is thnews. thank you so much for being here. but stay with us. when we come back, more of our conversation

with senators lankford and warnock, the only two members of clergy serving in the u.s. senate. we'll talk about how they find common ground as faith leaders. as faith leaders. [ music ] psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. one day, your joints hurt. next, it's on your skin. i got cosentyx. feels good to move. feel less joint pain, swelling and tenderness, back pain, and clearer skin, and help stop further joint damage with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections, and lowered ability to fight them may occur, like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal, or viral infections. some were fatal. tell your doctor if you have anan infecti or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or plan to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur. ♪♪ ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx.

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that affects how i treat my wife, my children, people i disagree with, my staff. it affects how i drive. i say to people a lot on the faith issues, if your faith only affects what you do on sunday mornings, things that you only do on a weekend, that's called a hobby. a faith is something that permeates every part of what you do. and so my faith affects me. i see people as created in the image of god and they have value and worth. we may disagree on an issue, but that person is created the image of god. they have value and worth the same as i do on that. and so i'm going to treat them different. i want to have strong debate on issues because clearly i'm right, clearly you're wrong, clearly. [ laughter ] all those issues. i want to talk about the issues and what i believe in. but i want to do it in a respectful way to say i want to also listen because i'm a person that should learn in humility as well because god has affected me. and i'd love to have that for other people as well. >> senator warnock, how does your faith impact the work that you do every day here in washington? >> well, i often say to folks that i'm not a senator who used to be a pastor.

>> right. >> i'm a pastor in the senate. and, you know, i don't know if you've ever been to a baptist service. you took great risk inviting two baptist preachers. there's a limit to this. >> we were worried about the time cues, yeah. >> 15 minutes to clear his throat. so, you know, look, every sunday at my church after i finish a sermon, i say the doors of the church are open. it is our invitation to discipleship. and it is an openness. and you really mean it when you say, "whosoever will, let them come." i have brought that same spirit to my work in d.c. i literally mean it. like whoever i can work with to get good things done for the people of georgia, i will do that. and my work as a pastor, walking with people, even as you work for the people. very often in d.c., you can't get things done at the rate that you want to get them done. but i think people need leaders that they feel walking beside them in some sense. i've spent years literally in hospital rooms.

i've seen up close what happens when the diabetes, for example, gets out of control. i've been there when families have had to face the terrible news that someone has to get an amputation. and so it was those folks that i had in mind when i wrote my bill to cap the cost of insulin to $35 per month. and so i try to bring that spirit of centering people, the openness to work with anybody to get things done. >> do you worry that politics is impacting people's religious faith, senator? >> well, i think that we shouldn't turn the politics into a god. you know, one central tenet of our faith is that you have no other god before me. and look, i don't want to turn politics into a god. i don't want to practice my faith in such a way that i'm not open to others. you know, i'm a pastor, but i believe firmly in the separation of church and state. it is the values

that come from my faith, that inform my work every day in d.c. and not the doctrine. and so, you know, it's important that the table is broad enough to embrace people of moral courage. >> do you think, senator lankford, that faith can still help bridge the divide in politics? >> absolutely. and us both being baptists, i'll tell you a little baptist history here. baptists were kicked out of all the colonies. and originally, when we were just colonies, every colony had its own religion. there was a time in america where you had to be to be a leader in that area. baptists were kicked out of all the colonies. we all ended up in providence, rhode island, actually. that's how it became this providence, rhode island, because it was open to all faiths and all backgrounds, a unique background on it. this basic tenet of politics affecting your faith or faith affecting politics, i believe the whole bible. i just do. and i just believe that's truth on it. one of those truths that are in there is you should love your neighbor as yourself. and in politics right now, it seems to be most interesting

when you hate your neighbor and when you attack your neighbor and you go online and go on social media and say something snarky about your neighbor. i get that's popoliticallinteresting and it gets you likes on social media. but it violates a basic biblical principle of i'm going to love my neighbor as myself. and i've got to decide as a person of faith, am i going to try to be the most aggressive, angry politician? or am i going to try to be a jesus follower who also serves in this role? >> and that takes me to my next question for both of you. a lot of people are about to be with family for the holidays to celebrate a range of different holidays. and there are a lot of divisions right now in our politics and within people's families, within their friendships. so talk to people. senator lankford, why don't you start us off? all around the country this holiday season, what would your message be about how they canestart some of those conversations that they may have lost? >> well, it's the most basic thing to have a little bit of humility in relationships and to be able to sit down with people and to be able to

get their story, especially with family, to say, "hey, we're family. we got to figure this out on it for the sake of our children and our cousins and our parents. let's sit down and try to figure out ways to be able to solve this." i've never met a person that regretted solving issues in their own family. i've met a lot of people that regretted broken relationships in their family. so if a relationship is broken in your family, that affects your whole family. so do the hard work. sit down with people you disagree with and say, "let's figure this out on it, because it'd be good for us for decades to be able to come on it." and that's just a basic gift to your family and to your kids, quite frankly. >> senator warnock, final thought. >> our faith should not become one more tool in the arsenal of these culture wars. my faith is not a weapon, it's a bridge. and it certainly ought to be able to bridge relationships within one's own family. and so we approach this work with a degree of humility, the recognition that we don't know everything. there are things we can't even see, quite frankly, based on where we were sitting

right now in this room. literally, the things you're seeing because where you're sitting that i don't see and vice versa. so we have to talk to one another. and in this christmas season, i have to tell you, my favorite christmas hymn is a "o, holy night". and in there, this is one great line. it says, "his law is love and his gospel is peace." i would hope that as lawmakers and citizens, that we will be guided by the law of love, the gospel of peace, regardless of our faith tradition and that we will see each other's humanity. >> senators warnock and lankford, such an important and informative conversation. honored to have you both here. merry christmas to you both. >> both: merry christmas. >> thank you for being here. we really appreciate it. and when we come back, we continue with a special panel conversation on how our divided nation can find a path forward. [ music ]

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exploring ways to treat even more types of cancer. it's tru. keytruda from merck. see all the types of cancer keytruda is known for at keytruda.com, and ask your doctor if keytruda could be right for you. . >> welcome back. the panel is here. pulitzer prize-winning presidential historian doris kearns goodwin, author of "an unfinished love story: a personal history of the 1960s". nbc news correspondent antonia hylton, co-hosof the podcast "grapevine" and

"southlake" and author of "madness: race and insanity in a jim crow asylum". and dr. russell moore, editor-in-chief of christianity today and author of "losing our religion: an alter call for evangelical america". thanks to all of you for being here for a very special "meet the press". we appreciate it. doris, i want to start with you. we are talking about how divided we are as a country. what does history tell us about these moments? what can we learn about the moments when we've been most divided in the past? >> i think this is where history can come to the rescue because we've been really divided at other times. i mean, i just think way, way back to the election of 1800 between federalist john adams and republican thomas jefferson. it was so much more vitriolic than the one we just went through. each one said the other one was an enemy to the constituti. each one said the other one was an existential threat. even martha washington bore in on the federalist side, saying that jefferson was despicable, the most despicable mankind of all. they called each other atheists.

they called each other monarchists. and the extraordinary thing was that they actually jailed people who were saying things bad about adams. adams had a 1798 law. and so somebebody had lled him a bad name, he put him in jail. and so this was really, really tough. so what does jefferson do? this is where it's his answer to this. he comes to his inauguration and he starts off saying, "we are all federalists. we are all republicans. we must approach each other with civility and magnanimity. we must unite for the common good." and that somehow set a tone. and then he let that law expire that allowed you to jail journalists. and he brought the journalists who had been put in jail out on a pardon. and he followed through on his idea that he would reach across the aisle and become a president and set a tone for his own presidency. there's answers to these problems, as history shows. >>nd the lesson there that words and actions indeed do matter. dr. moore, let me turn to you because doris is talking about how to emerge from an election cycle that is so divisive

in a stronger way. how do you think people can work on rebuilding their relationships in the wake of this past election that we've all just witnessed? >> well, that's the number one question that i get from people in their families, from people in their churches and they're in their communities. and especially as we're going into the holidays, a lot of people say, "well, what do we do with this tense sort of sitting down at the at the table?" and some people think, "i don't want to avoid the topic because if i do that somehow giving up." i don't think it is. i think we do this all the time. we don't bring up aunt mildred's ex-husband. uncle ronnie can't handle eggnog, don't bring any to the table, or those kinds of things, all kinds of things that we don't talk about because we want to remain connected with one another. so i'll often quote a bible verse that says, "so far as is possible with you, live peaceably with all people." it's not always possible. there are going to be people who are going to insist on being divided and to argue. but i found that most people, if you say, "look, we disagree. i'm not going to convince you

of my views on politics. you're not going to convince me. but i really need you as mom or as brother or as friend. can we just avoid that?" most people are willing to do that. now you slip and you slide and you fall. there's not one linus reciting luke 2 speech that just ends everything and everything is warm again. but it does mean that you're working together toward that point of connection. and i think that's important. >> the importance of putting the relationship, the person and the connection above all else. antonia, i've been struck. you've been traveling all around this country, talking to people in communities, in places of worship, in schools. what have been your biggest takeaways about this moment of division that this country is facing? >> i think the major takeaways for me, they kind of break down into two things. the first is that i think our national political politics, the polarization that we see on the national stage is seeping into

and fraying local relationships. and then i think -- and this one may be the more obvious one. i think we're living in a time right now where people have retreated into silos and they're in very different information and fact ecosystems. but what's interesting is that people are responding to this dysfunction, the fear that they have about cultural or technological changes, often with actually the same strategy, even though it might look a little different because they come from different communities. so i've spent time in texas and oklahoma with evangelical families and they're concerned about what's happening in the public school system, so they pull their kids out. they put them into a christian academy because that's where their faith is affirmed. and that's where they think the books will be the most appropriate for their children. or they're concerned about the story of american history that their children will be exposed to. and d so they treat there. and then i've spent time with, for example, a black family in north carolina ahead of the election. and they felt like the democrats had come back

time and time again and made promises to them that were not fulfilled. and so they were describing basically a lifestyle that was now hyperlocal. "i'm going to depend on my neighbor. i'm going to care about my kids. i'm going to worry about my job and my salary. and i don't think i'm going to participate. i need to retreat." so very different communities and people, but they're actually doing the same thing. >> all retreating. it's so fascinating, antonia, to hear you map it out like that. and doris, you actually participated in a time in history when people, instead of retreating, were coming together. the march on washington in 1963, you were there, really the height of the civil rights movement. here we have some footage of dr. martin luther king, jr. what are the lessons for you of that moment of that time? >> oh, it was an extraordinary moment, really. i mean, it was that feeling for the first time in my life when i was part of something larger than myself. there were 250,000 other people there at that time. and you felt a sense of joyous, complete, peaceful, disciplined march.

and when i was carrying a sign, "catholics and jews and protestants unite for civil rights." it really changed the direction of my life because we ended up singing, "we shall overcome". i felt this sense of fulfillment that many people in the '60s felt, that we were making the country a better place. i went back to college. i was going to be in international relations. i'd gotten a fulbright to go to paris and brussels. i said, "no, i want to live in america. i want to be part of this." and i think if we could only restore -- i think what you said about silos is so important. if i had any one thing i could do as an older person now, i would have a national service program. kids come out of high school. they have a year where the city kid goes to the country. the eastern person goes to the heartlands and they have a service so they feel that sense of fulfillment we felt in the '60s. we can do that. it's a hard thing to do, but it's the only way we're going to break down the silos, by having them work together on a common mission. we do it in the military. let's do it domestically at home. i'm really, really for that. >> all right. what a fantastic ending point for this segment. but stay with us. we have a lot more to get to. when we come back,

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>> welcome back. as we do every year, we want to take a moment to remember some

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>> welcome back. the panel is still here. antonia, i want to start this part of the conversation with you. we are about to start a new admininistration a new chapter really for the entire country. as you talk to folks in your travels, what are they telling you about their hopes, their expectations for this next stage for the country? >> well, i think the one thing everyone can agree on is that they are either hopeful for or bracing for immense change right now. and i come back again to some of the conversations that i had during the election cycle in late october as i was on the road, mostly in north carolina. and i would talk to families that described to me feeling like year after year or cycle after cycle, whether they were in urban parts of the state or rural ones, like their lives were not changing, that they were seeing this dysfunction on our sort of national political stage and they wanted change. and i think one of the reasons

we're in the moment that we're in and that people were fueling a comeback for president-elect trump is that in a way that represented a type of change, a release from a status quo that it seems large numbers of americans, actually no matter what side of the divide they're on, they wanted broken in some sense. and so that's the thing i think we need to recognize. but the pieces that i see on the ground at the local level that seem to respond to or heal from that are local community groups and organizations that are starting to bring people together across those differences and have them spend that quality time. i did the story about a basketball, a pickup basketball league in new york city the other day where investment bankers, artists, people between employment were all on a team together. >> wow. >> never talking about politics, never talking about the difference between staten island and the bronx. but were just talking about their love of caitlin clark and the wnba

and their place in the world. and i think people want more of that. >> yeah. dr. moore, pick up on that point and also just the responsibility that you think as a faith leader, you think leaders should have morally, whether they're in the white house or in the halls of congress or at the community level, as antonia is talking about. >> well, what i worry about right now is cynicism. people who have given up and the assumption that my enemies are as corrupt as they can possibly be, therefore, i need to be just as corrupt in order to fight them. and so i think there's a sense of exhaustion and cynicism that we have to combat. and i think in terms of moral leadership in office, a lot of that has to do with imaginatively giving people a picture of what is possible. growing up in mississippi, when i would see elderly white people who had resisted the pull to jim crow segregation ideology, it was almost always for one reason. they were in the air force. they were in the army. they had seen a different picture of reality

and were able to bring that back home. i think our leaders can't underestimate how many children are watching and saying, "what does this really mean?" and can rhetoric, can language even mean anything at all? or is it simply this constant upping of the stakes? which, as a christian, i think of jesus saying, "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." that kind of cycle of violence, whether rhetorical or actual, leads to nowhere good. >> well, you take me to my question for doris beautifully, which is we are about to, of course, hear from president-elect trump at his inauguration, his inaugural address. and you talk about the importance of language and rhetoric in these moments where everyone is watching, doris. what does history tell us about this moment? >> i mean, i think history would point out exactly what you said about imaginatively giving people a different way of thinking. fdr's first inaugural, i think, was perhaps the most impactful. he was told right before he went there that,

"you know, if your program works, you'll be one of the great presidents in history. if it fails, you'll be one of the worst." he said, "no, i'll be the last american president." that's how hard it was. one out of four people out of work, people feeling paralyzed, no safety net. and he comes on and he says with this contagious optimism, you know, "only a foolish optimist would deny the brutal realities of the moment. but there's nothing to fear but fear itself." but most importantly, he said, "it's not your fault, people. it was the failure of leadership. and i'm here to provide that leadership." and then he promised action. "i'll bring an emergency session of congress. i'll get these laws passed. if they won't, i'll somehow act as if i'm at war." by the end of that talk, people felt changed. they felt they had a leader. there were headlines. "we have a leader! the government still lives!" hundreds of thousands of letters went in. one person wrote, "my roof fell off. my wife is mad at me. i've lost my job. everything's bad except you're there. now everything's all right." it's the mystery of leadership that that can happen. now, it may not happen at the top, but we have to believe, as you say,

we cannot have cynicism. all the big changes that have happened in america come from the ground up. it was when lincoln was told, "you're a liberator," he said, no, "it was the anti-slavery movement that did it all." it was the civil rights movement, the women's movement. we have to believe, if we're not able to think that we can have a leader that can help us out of it, we have to believe in ourselves as citizens. >> we only have about 30 seconds left, antonia, really quickly. will the younger generation be listening? >> i think we have to meet them where they are. they want to learn. they want to listen. i've started asking them on the road when i meet them, "what could i do to better serve you?" and they tell me, "start from the beginning. you need to explain to me the terms of the debate because i feel like it's running away from me. come to the platforms where we live and the neighborhoods where we are." and that's going to be the beginning of change. >> dr. moore, we have about 20 seconds left. your final thought? >> i think politics makes a good way to run a country together. it makes a terrible god. we have to have things more important than our political struggles if we're going to make it together as a country. >> all right. thank you for this really

incredible panel discussion. i appreciate it. that is all for today. thank you for watching. have a merry christmas and a very happy holidays. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press". [ music ]

the christmas travel week is off to a chaotic start. trains coming to a halt in the northeast corridor as amtrak goes dn for