this sunday, russian reset. president trump refuses to blame russia for the war in ukraine,

seemingly embracing moscow's views as he negotiates a deal to end the war. >> you've been there for three years. you should have ended it. you should have never started it. you could have made a deal. >> while republicans put the blame on putin. >> this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime. >> how is president trump changing america's relationship to allies and adversaries? plus, deep cuts. >> i wanted to find somebody smarter than him. i searched all over. i just couldn't do it. >> with thousands of federal workers fired and billions of dollars in funding frozen, how far is president trump willing to go in allowing elon musk to reshape the government? this is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. and pentagon purge. president trump fires the country's top uniformed officer. what will it mean for the military? my guests this morning, democratic senator cory booker of new jersey, and republican

senator markwayne mullin of oklahoma. plus, steve kornacki breaks down mr. trump's first month in office. joining me, nbc capitol hill correspondent melanie squa know na, jonathan martin, former homeland security secretary jay jansen and lanhee chen, a fellow at the hoover institution. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with kristen welker. >> good sunday morning. as the president marks his first month in office, there is growing fallout over the mass firings across the federal government. on friday night, president trump removing a number of senior military officers, including four star general brown, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. and overnight, federal employees received an email asking them to summarize their work for the past week.

elon musk adding failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. it comes as his operatives are now working inside at least 18 departments and agencies. musk punctuating the moment by brandishing a chainsaw at a conservative conference in washington. >> this is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. chainsaw! >> we've escorted the radical left bureaucrats out of the building and locked the doors. we've gotten rid of thousands. >> back in their districts, republican lawmakers have been forced to defend the cuts to voters at town halls from georgia to oregon, wisconsin and beyond. >> i understand trying to do more with less, that's reasonable. what's not reasonable is taking this chainsaw approach which they obviously admit when they fire these people and then decide, oh, we fired the wrong people, we've got to bring them back in. why is this being jammed down the pipes so rushed? >> even one of president trump's

allies, fox news host jesse watters urging the president to rethink the firings after learning a friend, a veteran, would be cut at the pentagon. >> we just need to be a little less callous with the way we talk about doge-ing people. i want that to sink in. >> now, president trump this week also upending decades of u.s. foreign policy toward russia, suggesting ukraine is to blame for being invaded by russia three years ago. >> today i heard, oh, we weren't invited. well, you've been there for three years. you should have ended it. you should have never started it. you could have made a deal. >> russian troops currently occupy about 20% of ukraine's territory in the east and south. president trump also falsely calling ukrainian president zelenskyy a dictator. >> a dictator without elections, zelenskyy better move fast or he's not going to have a country

left. >> you called president zelenskyy of ukraine a dictator. do you think that president putin of russia is also a dictator? >> i think that president putin and president zelenskyy are going to have to get together, because, you know what, we want to stop killing millions of people. >> the "new york post" unleashing on mr. trump, showing russian president putin on its cover with the headline, this is a dictator. we are now getting our first snapshot of how americans are reacting to president trump's first month in office. i'm joined now by nbc's steve kornacki. break down these numbers for us. >> kristen, you weren't kidding. just in the last couple of days, five new polls out measuring the reaction from the public. you see them right here. the headline, polarizing a month into the second trump presidency. you see his approval rating in four of these five polls is under 50%, in four of these five polls his disapproval number is higher than his approval number.

so by just about any historical standard this is a low political position for a president to be in a month into his presidency. though, it is worth noting that the one exception to that would be trump himself in his first term. in a way,nothing new for trump. you're looking at the average of the nbc polls the first trump presidency, , 2017 to 2021. if you averaged, trump was under water approval rating 44/53. his absolute best marks still never got that approval number over the disapproval number. you see as low as it got. average everything that's out there right now, you can see how his current standings stack up. kind of in that same range. so maybe another way of looking at this, another way this was asked, quinnipiac asked, there's a lot going on, are you surprised by any of it. about a quarter of voters say trump is exceeding their expectations. about a quarter say he is failing to meet their

expectations. most say for all of the swirl of activity here, this is pretty much what they expected. let's look at some specific issues here, some actions, proposals from trump here. again, from all of these different polls, what's the most unpopular, setting off alarm bells. you can see the call to end birthright citizenship, only 39% support there. firing federal workers, this question asked about potentially firing hundreds of thousands, 51% opposition. this is the single least popular thing trump has done in the second term, pardoning january 6th offenders, including violent offenders, more than 80% opposed. on the flip side, he's proposed some things that are popular, that executive order to expand oil and gas production, the executive order recognizing two sexes, and also when you look at immigration, there's all sorts of different ways to ask about it, but the cbs poll had asked the general trump administration program to deport immigrants who are here illegally. you see broad support there when

it's asked at the broad level like that. look at the personalities. the public faces of this administration, not just the president, the vice president and, of course, you were just talking about elon musk. what you're measuring is just basic popularity, do you have a favorable, unfavorable view of these people. again, t trump number looks like his approval number. vance, it's about evenly split. with musk, it is 50% unfavorable. when you ask folks just about the job that musk has taken inside the government trying to make cuts here, again, you can see 49% disapproval, only a third approving. we see a lot of similarities politically to trump's first term. the difference, remember, trump's political strength in his first term was the economy. again, averaging our polls from the first trump presidenency, nearly 50% across those four years were saying they approved of how trump handled the economy. we know how politically potent that issue is. he campaigned on it last year.

attitudes toward the economy have not improved so far and now it's nearly 50% who disapprove of how trump is handling the economy. this is early in his presidency, but we know the potency of the economy and these numbers may loom right now, kristen, as the biggest single immediate political challenge for donald trump and for the republican party. >> just a fascinating look at what americans think right now, as we prepare to enter the second month of the trump administration. steve kornacki, thank you so much. >> thank you, kristen. joining me is republican senator mike wayne mullen of oklahoma. welcome back to "meet the press." >> thanks for having me on, kristen. >> thank you so much for being here. let's start with the effort to end the war in ukraine, that war now about to stretch into its fourth year, incredibly hard to believe. senator mullen, do you acknowledge that vladimir putin is responsible for starting the war in ukraine?

>> you know, i didn't think what president trump -- i know what he was meaning, we gave zelenskyy multiple warnings that there needed to be negotiations before the war even started. and president trump has absolutely corrected it, if he was in office, this war would have never taken place. what we're trying to do and president trump is trying to do is end the killing. it's been going on for three years. the biden administration turned a blind eye to it and president trump is a president that can end the war, fact and simple. >> i guess -- i didn't hear an answer to the question of, did vladimir putin start the war? you said when the war started, i strongly condemn the unjustified and unprovoked attack on ukraine. just to be clear, senator, do you still believe this was an unjustified and unprovoked attack on ukraine by russia? >> you know, what we believe is this war should never have taken

place. what we're trying to do is put president trump in a good position to negotiate the end of the war. it's the same way that reagan worked with gorbachev by trying to end the cold war. trump is a president that's going to be able to end the killings that should have never taken place and would have never taken place if he had been in office instead of joe biden. the reason why is because president trump leads peace through strength. what biden led through is appeasement and that doesn't work on the world stage. and i do believe 100% that we don't want to back the president or this administration into a corner on saying things that might damage the ability for president trump to negotiate an end to this war. and president trump is a deal maker, he will end this war. >> well, and, of course, there's no way to go back in history and know what may or may not have happened under a different president. let me ask you this. >> well, i don't know if you can say that, because if you look at the -- >> senator -- >> -- look at the history of

this, just look at the history. crimea was invaded underneath obama. he did not invade any of ukraine when trump was in office. he invaded ukraine when biden went into office. so i think there's a history to say that there's a pretty about 99.9% chance it wouldn't have happened if trump had been in office or if biden would have simply used the same peace through strength foreign policy that trump had. >> senator, i think the question is, can president trump be critical and tough on putin right now? let me play you some of what your senate republican colleagues had to say this week. take a listen. >> putin is a war criminal and should be in jail for the rest of his life. if not executed. >> he's a gangster with a black heart. i don't -- he makes jeffrey dahmer look like mother teresa. >> this man is a cancer and the

greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime. >> senator, is it important for the president of the united states, who speaks for all of the country, to be honest and critical of vladimir putin? >> i think the president has been very critical of putin, and i'm not sitting here defending putin. putin is not a good guy. at the same time, that's up to the rugssian people. that's not up to us to make that decision. what president trump is trying to do is end the war, and he's trying to end the war from a place of strength. you don't end a war from a place of weakness, which is why biden could never end the war. trump is going to end the war. he said he was going to do it when he was on the campaign trail and he's kept his promises and he's going to continue to deliver on those promises. >> let me zoom out and ask you big picture, do you think the united states should stay in nato, senator? >> you know, if it's in our interest, i absolutely do. but right now nato has not always been playing in our best interest. and when it's not in americans'

best interest anymore, then we should relook at things. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. we see nato and u.n. sometimes weaponizing against the united states. and we're the biggest funder of it. if it's not in the taxpayers' best interest and not in americans' foreign policy best interest, then we need to look at a diffent approach. >> the united states has historically determined that it is in the united states' best security interest. >> historically. >> president zelenskyy himself has said he believes that russian troops are amassing potentially in belarus, could be eyeing the potential of going into other nato nations. can european members and the nato count on the united states and president trump to help defend them if they're attacked by russia, senator? >> well, first of all, i don't believe for a second russia is going to advance a war in any other country right now. it would be extremely dangerous and he will call president trump's hand. president trump does not just

simply say words, he delivers. we saw what happened in syria. keep in mind, in syria he told russia to stay out of it in 2017. they went ahead and helped assad and they delivered chemical weapons on their own people. what did president trump do within 30 minutes? he kicked russia out of the airspace and completely destroyed the air field they were operating underneath. russia and putin fears president trump. >> senator, let me ask you about the breaking news that happened late friday night when president trump fired joint chief of staff brown, who president trump picks force.ears ago to lead the air i want to play you some of what congressman james clyburn had to say in reaction. take a look. >> is that why you think the president has let him go? because he's black? >> that's what i think. when they say dei, we know what it means. i heard somebody say earlier

today they are substituting these acronyms for the "n" word. so why would you apply the term "woke" to general brown? what does that mean. >> senator, what is your reaction to congressman clyburn? do you think that c.q. brown was fired because he's black? >> unfortunately, congressman clyburn constantly pulls the race card out. this has nothing to do with this. we're a civilian force and the president gets to choose his closest advisers. and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff are the closest advisers. obviously he said very positive things about general brown, even when he was dismissing him. but the president has a right to pick people around him that he trusts. and at some point he chose to go a different direction. this had zero, absolutely zero to do with race. kekeep in mind, the reason why was promoted the first time was because president trump did that in his last administration. so it's dangerous every time the

left wants to pull out the race card. it's dangerous and reckless and ridiculous. >> let's turn to these steep government cuts we're seeing. they're starting to be felt across the country. here are some recent headlines in your home state of oklahoma. quote, federal layoffs dealt across indigenous communities in oklahoma. oklahoma university president says the national institutes of health funding cut would severely impact university research. thousands of oklahoma veterans and caregivers struggle amid ts to va as there have been town halls across the country, including in oklahoma, protesting these cuts. what is your message to the people of oklahoma who say they are being hurt by these cuts by president trump and elon musk? >> well, let's go back and talk about their protests. the chair of the dnc, ken martin, openly admitted on msnbc just yesterday that they were manufacturing these protests, they were busing in armies to

manufacture these protests. >> but what about the headlines in your state? hold on, senator. >> i'll get to that. i will get to that. let's talk about the nih. the funding has been abused all across the universrsities. we have ivy league from harvard to yale that's using 68%, 69% of the nih funding for moneys other than research, meaning overhead. you have the university of oklahoma, 55% of the dollars that are going in for research are being used for overhead funding. those dollars should be around 15% to 25% tops to be used for overhead instead of nih actual research and development. there has to be a reset. it has been abused. what the president is saying, if that number can be anywhere from 15% to 25%, but it should be a max. if you start looking at donors that donate to universities, they immediately put in 15% to 25% tops on their donation can be used for that.

so if you want to start talking about actual cuts, what oklahoma wants is to make sure we get rid of the waste and fraud inside the federal government. that's exactly what the president has done. they've identified billions of dollars of waste and fraud for the taxpayers. >> senator, first of all, they haven't provided proof of fraud. talk to the people in oklahoma who have lost their jobs, who say they are hurting, they don't foe how they're going to pay their mortgage, make ends meet. talk to those people. what's your message to them? they say enough of these cuts. >> well, i would tell you that the majority of the american people want to make sure their tax dollars are being used correctly. i don't want anybody to lose their job. that's the last thing we want. but at the same time, any time you're trying to secure this country, which a national security risk we have right now is our national debt. we have to make changes and we have to make it quickly. unfortunately, when we have brur

-- dsh bureaucrats that have wasted our dollars, cuts had to take place and every business owner understands this. every business owner understands that youave to get your house in order before you can advance. that's exactly what doge is doing. think about this, every successful business owner out there and every successful business has hired consultants to take a look and make changes, because sometimes when you're so close to it, you can't see what changes need to take place. elon musk is the united states consultant right now, he is literally the best entrepreneur we've had in our lifetime and he's doing it for free and taking an unbiased look saying these programs make no sense. let's save the taxpayer dollars and get our house in order. >> before i let you go, the national debt is $36 trillion. doge is only dealing right now with the federal workers, which

is only 8% of federal spending, a small fraction of the federal budget. so how do doge's layoffs actually deal with the debt problem? >> take care of your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. every business owner knows that. within only four short weeks we've identified over $55 billion of waste and fraud. we're only four weeks into a four-year administration. that is taking care of the pennies and going to get to the dollars. we will get our house back in order. >> senator, very quickly, because i am almost out of town. president trump again this week joked about running for a third term. would you support changing the constitution to allow donald trump to seek a third term in office? >> first of all, he joked. so i think we need to take that as a joke, not being literal. >> some of his allies say they are deadly serious, senator. would you support that? >> i'm not changing the

constitution, first of all, unless the american people chose to do that. i will say, just as you said at the beginning, it was a joke and people need to take it as a joke. the president is a very interesting guy that you can find extreme humor when you sit down to visit with him. at the same time, he can be deadly serious. that's why i call him my friend. >> senator, thank you so much for joining us. really appreciate it. hope you'll come back again soon. thank you. when we come back, democratic senator cory booker of new jersey joins me next. [ car engine revving ]

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take action for your loved one. talk to their doctor today about rexulti. talk to theheydoctor today we're going big tonight let's go safety whoa! should i call mom? no, no don't tell your mother anything welcome back. joining me now is democratic senator cory booker of new jersey. senator booker, welcome back to "meet the press." >> it's good to be here. good to be here in person. >> it is good to have you here in person. thank you so much. let's start out big picture, we are one month into president

trump's second term. his approval rating stands at 45, 46% more popular now than he was at this point in his first term and as you well know, he was in striking distance in your blue state of new jersey about six points away from winning the state. do you believe you have a responsibility to the your constituents to try to find a way to work with president trump. >> first of all, new jersey is our main priority and doing anything they can, and what donald trump is doing right now is hurting our ate. he's increased taxes on basically all of my state and what you should be reminded of is he didn't win the majority of the popular vote. he won the popular vote, but didn't get over 50%. historically, he's the least popular president of my life time except for in his first term. he had a very narrow mandate which was to lower prices which was to help people with the inflation is up, the price of is

eggs is up and new jerseyians are still hurting. >> will you work with him to lower prices? is that an area where you can find common ground? >> this is what a strong president does. they get elected without a mandate and say i want to work with democrats, what reagan did, what clinton did, and i want to accomplish big things and he didn't do it the strong president way. he started issuing these executive orders. none of them had to do with lowering prices. all of them had to do with petty personal stuff, attacks on people that attacked him from pardoning the 9/11 -- excuse me, from pardoning the january 6th people who viciously beat police officers all of the way to renaming the gulf of mexico. this is not what people wanted him to do and ultimately he's going to be paying for it and that's why his approval rating is going down right now. >> let me ask you about the firing of the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, cq brown.

you heard me play that sound from congressman clyburn. he said point-blank he believes he was fired because of the color of his skin. senator mullin pushed back against that the characterization forcefully. how do you see the firing of cq brown? >> the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff is someone who should give advice and independent of politics. that's why their terms are set, but just like the fbi director which again was a republican supportive person, general brown was supported overwhelmingly by democrats and republicans, donald trump is throwing that out the window and sending a message to the military. it's not about your expertise or years of service, it's about your personal, political loyalty to me and that is a dangerous message to send to our military at a time when we really need independent credible advice for

the president because we live in a difficult, complex world. >> i do want to talk about the economy, as you're saying one of the critical issues. the country is facing a $36 trillion debt as i was just discussing. the debt went up about $7 trillion under president trump during his first term. more than $4 trillion under president biden. should democrats, senator, have done more to address the debt when they were in power, when you had a chance to do that? it's not just that it went up 7 trillion in my life time. he increased national debt while bill clinton and barack obama closed the deficit and president trump created the -- and he is a spender and gives tax cuts to the wealthiest. if you look at his biggest economic piece of legislation that he passed it created a massive deficit in order to give tax cuts to the wealthiest of the wealthiest of america and

corporations that are doing well and don't need that kind of tax cut. now, i think the stunning thing for americans is he's going after critical jobs from the faa to our nuclear regulators. he's going after critical jobs to save pennies in order to give himself more room to give big tax cuts to the wealthiest americans and the wealthiest corporations. >> let me move on now because i want to talk about the rhetoric in talking about president trump's aggressiive usof power. some of your colleagues are saying that america is in a, quote, constitutional crisis. i want to play you that sound. >> this is a constitutional crisis. it's the most serious assault in the constitution in the history of this country. >> i think this is the most serious crisis the country has faced certainly since watergate. we are basically on the cusp of a constitutional crisis. >> senator, as you know, democrats just lost an election largely with the closing argument accusing trump of being

a threat to democracy. is that the most effective messaging right now? >> think most effective messaging is talking about the crisis that's happening to americans. >> they shouldn't be talking about the constitution. >> i'm talking they should be talking about americans. i had one of the biggest hospital leaders in my state and talking about the cancer research now in crisis, literally ruining years of research and having to take cancer treatments away from people, cutting-edge, breakthrough treatments. you have crisis when you have planes falling from the sky and you're cutting faa folks. it is a crisis when nuclear regulators are being cut. i have farmers cutting me up, who are putting tens of thousands of dollars and the understanding that they'll get resources from the if federal government and starting to lose their farm. elon musk was a billionaire that never has think about where his

next meal is coming from and his medical treatment and how that will be paid for and they're feeling pain that is unimagine because they put their trust in, and all of this talk about usaid, i have visited people on the front lines stopping infectious diseases from coming here. to have scientists in dangerous areas like kampala suddenly not get access to their cell phone, their emails and be cut off by a president and elon musk who are in a ham handed, incompetent way cutting funding that makes no sense and ultimately won't make a difference in our deficit because the president wants to rack it up to give tax cuts to the wealthiest and create bigger deficits in the country. >> let me ask you about this broader divide in the democratic party. some saying let's sit back a little bit. you have other democrats taking a more aggressive approach and we saw this in a statement by

hakeem jeffreys in illinois and governor j.b. pritzker. take a look. >> they control the house, the senate and the presidency. it's their government. what leverage do we have? my oath is to the constitution of our state and of our country. we don't have kings in america, and i don't intend to bend the knee on one. >> who has the right message, senator? >> i sit with 46 other senate democrats and they are united in this fight working with state attorneys general, working with governors and working with the greater american population to stop donald trump from violating the constitution being violating separation of powers, violating civil service laws and many other things they're doing. the reason we're winning case after case in front of republican judges is because donald trump is illegal and it has to be stopped and i am proud it see a movement growing to

stop donald trump from doing destructive things hurting americans. >> some of your democrats support shutting down the government to protest his policies. >> they control the house, the senate and the white house. they are showing they want to shut down the government. they're trying to shut down the department of education and usaid. they have the power and they won the election. they have to keep the government going. >> you won't keep it open? >> when government shuts down people get hurt. i have to protect and defend americans. they're reckless, really, truly incompetent way they're functioning government right now is hurting so many people. i will do everything i can to stop them. >> senator cory booker, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> so great to have you here. when we come back, president trump is praising elon musk and pushing him to be more pushing him to be more aggressive known for building special bonds.

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i bet you can buy the whole team new cleats with all that money you saved. nancy dawson is passive progressive. you know, nancy, that's actually really inappr-- oh! nancy doesn't have progressive so she takes it out on those who do. you should get luca private coaching with that. maybe he'll score a goal. i figured you'd want the whole roll since you saved hundreds with progressive. how many tickets? two, please. don't be passive progressive. two for becky. drivers who switch could save hundreds. welcome back. the panel is here. jonathan martin, politics bureau chief and senior political columnist at politico. nbc news capitol hill

correspondent melanie zaona. former secretary of homeland security, jeh johnson and lahnee chen a fellow at the hoover institution at stanford university. thank you all of you for being here. jonathan, we are one month in to the trump presidency, we have the pushback seeing at these town halls across the country. what do you make of this first month? >> if the president had taken his mandate as cracking down on the border and trying to reduce the cost of goods, i think he'd be in a lot better shape right now, but like a lot of presidents who misread the results of the polls and their election, he's overreaching and doing so in ways that are invariably going to promptly lash back. the american people love the idea of the federal government and it's a very different story. when you start talking about actual people and their lives

are at stake you've seen the clips at these town halls. people don't like it. they like the idea of it and not the application of it, and that's e old axiom in american politics and that will put it on thin ice. >> welcome to nbc. welcome to the panel. we are thrilled to have you. he is not waiting for congress to give him the green light. he is slashing and burning these agencies with elon musk. there's been a little bit of speaking out on capitol hill, but very little real pushback. what are you hearing from your sources? >> yes, you're right. republicans are certainly in the backseat here. they're letting donald trump and elon musk call the shots, but i will say that behind the scenes we have started to see some cracks grow. i've been hearing from multiple republicans including and really safe, conservative seats telling me privately behind the seats they're very uncomfortable with the scope and speed of some of these cut says as they have hit

home and impacted some of their own con stch wents and it stitu usaid and they are frustrated that they have not received any guidance and communication from the white house and their own leadership about how they should be messaging this and they're the ones who are being confronted by angry constituents in these town halls and they don't know what to say. they want to still be supportive of the doge mission and this is creating real headaches for republicans. >> that's a very difficult place to be, jeh johnson, let me turn to you on this because we've seen some stumbling blocks with the administration, firing a whole bunch of people and then saying oh, wait. we have to rehire some of the people that we fired. you've received some calls about the overnight firings this weekend. we should remind people you were not only in the department of homeland security, you were in the general counsel for the department of defense. what are you hearing? >> first of all, the chain saw

imagery is apt. the chainsaw is indiscriminate and if you were serious about going about reducing the size of government, you do so in a methodical way. you work with omb, you develop who is essential, who is not which takes time. you work with congress. you don't try to do it all in a month. so that's number one. in terms of what's happening at the pentagon right now, the people i speak to in the community are very, very upset because they believe that this is chilling, being able to speak truth to power and general brown, 3,000 hours' flight time in a fighter jet and 130 hours combat mission, the cno, admiral franchetti was general of the 6th fleet and she commanded two aircraft carrier groups and on paper those two individuals who

the president fired are far more qualified to be chairman of the joint chiefs than the one he wants to fire and put in this role. this is sending a message to the entire community. shut up, fall in line. don't speak truth to power, just wait out the time until you retire or you could be fired with three hours' notice to get out of your government house. >> just stunning to hear that and lahnee, this comes against the backdrop as lahnee was talking about with these townhauls and town halls and what do you make of this moment? >> we have to question who thee people are in these town halls and these are activiss when never liked donald trump and never in avor of donald trump. let's see how this all plays out. every president wants to expand the scope of the executive action. george w. bush after 9/11 tried to expand the surveillance state. barack obama tried to use executive action to legalize a

number of undocumented immigrants. every president wants to push the boundaries. >> yeah. >> when it comes to reducing the scope and size of government, what we've tried is an incremental apoach that hasn't worked. so this president's saying, let's go further. let's cut deeper and it is going to result in people saying is this the right thing to do, but fundamentally, what president's trying to do is to move the needle in a non-incremental way and that is going to result in people asking questions. that's where we're at, but in my view, the response we're seeing from the american people, it's got to play out over some period of time. >> a particularly sympathetic group for most americans. >> right, the challenge is they're not, theoretically, in d.c. when they're in tell us a oklahoma city or norman or markwayne mullin it's a very different story. the most interesting thing i thought he said was i don't want to see folks losing their jobs. that's precisely what's going to happen if they have the chain-style cuts and people don't like it when it starts

hitting them when they have skin in the game, which is why it's been so hard over the years, lahnee to make any real change in the government because people do not want to see profound change when it affects them. >> at airports, for example. >> the impact of cutting. you know what it's like to run it. >> yeah. how did that go? >> it wasn't just president obama. it was me, too. [ laughter ] no, you know, trey of ohio makes the point, hey, this is congress' job and yet it doesn't seem like anyone in congress is standing up to say we're the ones who should have oversight because tech nically, we decide what gets cut. >> i've spoken to those who said they're okay with elon musk and donald trump usurping some of their own power and their own purpose. i do think this is going to come to head in the weeks and months ahead particularly if they're debating government funding. this is going to be a huge question because democrats want a commitment that if they're

going to agree to fund the government that trump and elon musk will just ignore it and republicans have refused to give them a commitment. >> and republicans can't criticize trump and elon will start catching that fire from them. >> we will watch it closely, guys. stand by. we do have a lot more to discuss. we do want to note that gretchen whitmer had appeared on the broadcast. her staff called on friday to cancel her appearance citing changes to her schedule. we do hope to have her back soon. president trump is targeting initiatives in the federal government. we look back at how they were once ♪ are you having any fun? ♪ ♪ what you getting out of living? ♪ ♪ who cares for what you've got ♪ ♪ if you're not having any fun? ♪ ♪ are you having any laughs? ♪ ♪ are you getting any loving? ♪ ♪ if other people do, why can't you? ♪ ♪ have a little fun ♪

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welcome back. president trump has stepped up his pushback against programs promoting diversity, equity and inclusion, but this effort began well before his return to office a month ago in in 2023 his supreme court appointees helped form the conservative majority that struck down affirmative action in college admissions,

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>> welcome back. the panel is still here. secretary johnson, let's start with you. part of what i was discussing with senator booker which is this idea that some democrats are really leaning into the idea

that they are arguing this a constitutional crisis already. what do you mike of that? senator booker didn't necessarily lean into that. he said let's talk about issues like the economy. what's youtake? >> the reality is that voters, most voters care about the price of eggs, the price of gas, wait times at airports, tsa. the -- i worry that the phrase constitutional crisis is becoming an overused phrase, crying wolf too often. i believe that when it comes to the matter of the constitution, that is something that rises above politics. when we -- when a president says i am not going to abide by a court order. that is a true constitutional crisis because then the system of checks and balances collapses. i know many republicans, i know many heritage foundation republicans who would agree that

that is a constitutional crisis. that transcends politics, so we need to keep talking about it in those terms in my view. >> lahnee, what are you hearing when you talk to people? what has the reaction been inside republican circles to this type of talk and as president trump is facing a number of legal challenges across the country? >> i agree completely. the notion that we have a constitutional crisis belied by the fact that you have the courts that are still doing the work that they do. you have congress and ultimately the voters are going to cast judgment in the mid-term elections in less than two years. so what i'm hearing from republicans is let's hope democrats continue to use this argument as opposed to the one that you and senator booker have been using around the economy. that ultimately is going to be the more effective argument. republicans are, like, great. continue that because that's the shortest way you ensure to lose the mid-term election in 2026. >> before the commercial you showed the picture, kristen of the senator standing in front of the fbi withhe kash patel

logo. that is cutting no lie ice, it isn't as important. what's materiel to their lives and the cost of goods at the grocery store and they're losing the because of the indiscriminate cuts. that's what matters and that's where democrats have got to go. they cannot get suckered into talking about norms for the umpteenth time. >> they are under so much pressure from their base right now. >> sure. >> to go against donald trump. >> in some way. >> in some way, right? maybe it's not calling it a constitutional crisis, but there are other pressure points and who is the base is the other thing? >> secretary johnson, presidene trump seems to enjoy stirring the pot. he posted this week, he who saves this country does not violate any law. clearly trying to debate that argument.

>> it's just wrong. that's wrong. if a court of law tells you, you have violated the law and you've violated the constitution, the other political branches of government have to abide by that. otherwise the system collapses. >> there was a really striking moment this week with president trump. he was having lunch with the governors who were here for the governors association meeting and this was with maine governor janet mills related to state leaders on compliance to executive orders. take a look. >> is maine here, the governor of maine? >> i'm here. >> are you not going to comply with that? >> i'm complying with state and federal laws. >> we are the federal law. you better do it. you better do it. so you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any federal funding. >> see you in court. >> good, i'll see you in court. that should be a real easy one, and enjoy your life after, governor, because i don't think

you'll be in elected politics. >> what an unbelievable moment, jay martin. >> yeah. >> the other governor sitting there with eyes wide open and it kind of encapsulates the debate within the democratic party that i was discussing with senator booker. do you take the gloves off? do you try to work with trump? do you sit back? what do you make of that moment? >> the fact that the governors are there in the first place tell us the governors recognize they have to work with him to some degree. here here's the challenge. you have a dispute in public and he threatens your whole state and lobs a political threat and therein lies the challenge. your state needs federal dollars, but if you don't work with him he'll threat tone cut you off. >> there's the question that they haven't figured out how to navigate this yet. there might be different camps and it would have been

interesting to have heard governor witmer come on to justify the way in which they haven't been dealing with the president, for example, but the democrats can't figure out the right way forward, and as a result right now, you have all sorts of different approaches and i don't think governor mills' approach is the one democrats want to take in the long run. clearly in my mind, we had an election and they lost on that. >> full employment for lawyers. >> what really matters. >> the legal profession will be very busy. ultimately, if you're an elected governor you have to do and say what is in the best interest of your own state. >> yeah. >> and some governors will choose one path and others will choose a more confrontational path. >> we ve 30 seconds left, what are you hearing from democrats about this debate? >> they haven't figured it out yet. >> this is the debate that is going on right now. i think the leadership is much more cautious than what we saw from the governor, for example, but this is something that is going to play out in the weeks and months ahead.

>> all right, guys. great conversation. thank you so much for being here. that is all for today. thank you so much for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the ♪ ♪ ♪

pope francis still in