captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: today on "face the nation," auditions for key roles in the trump administration and democrats look for a new way forward. president-elect trump and vice president-elect pence hunkered down this weekend to interview cab dates for top positions in their new administration. >> we're seeing tremendous talent, people that, as i we will make america great again. >> dickerson: but will they? not everyone is so sure. friday night mr. pence received an unexpected message while attending a performance of the music hamilton. >> we, sir, we are a diverse america who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us. >> dickerson: we'll talk to vice president-elect pence about that and get an update on mr. trump's cabinet pick. kentucky senator rand paul is

ask him why. we'll also hear from democratic congressman keith ellison, one democrat trying to reshape his party. and what are the policy challenges ahead for mr. trump and a republican congress? we've assembled a panel of experts to explore. plus we'll honor our friend, the legendary journalist gwen ifill. it's all ahead on "face the nation." good morning and welcome to "face the nation." i'm john dickerson. president-elect trum presidential candidate mitt romney, a possible candidate for the job of secretary of state. the two appear to have moved past romney's tough criticism during the campaign. mr. trump also met with former centcom commander james madis. >> all i can say is he is the real deal. he is the real deal. >> dickerson: we're joined now by the head of the transition team and vice president-elect

to start, are there going to be any announcements today on staffing? >> i think that's yet to be seen, john. good to be with you this morning. we're here at trump national after a brisk day yesterday. but i have to tell you, to be able to have the opportunity to help lead this transition effort , to be sitting shoulder to shoulder with our president-elect as he's talking to men and women of extraordinary backgrounds and capabilities, putting this administration together, building the agenda, being there when he's talking to leaders around the world has been deeply inspiring. i think every american would be inspired by the leadership our president-elect has shown from literally hours after this election was called. >> dickerson: and romney as a possible secretary of state, is that right? >> that's absolutely right, john. i know the president-elect was very grateful that governor mitt

yesterday. we spent the better part of an hour together with him, and then i know that the two of them actually had some private time together. i would tell you that it was not only a cordial meeting, but also a very substantive meeting. i can say that governor romney is under active and serious consideration to serve as secretary of state of the united states. >> dickerson: let me ask you acted some work you've done in the transition since taking it over. yod and in keeping with with that, donald trump told me a couple months ago that he would have no problem with having no lobbyists and no major donors in his administration at all. do you think he'll be able to keep that promise? >> well, i think the american people want to see change in washington, d.c. there's been heartbreak and disappointment over recent years

an inability for washington, dc, to get anything done. and the president-elect is absolutely determined to build an administration with women and men who bring that fresh perspective and a determination on doing the people's business and not the business of special interests. so as you know, we made changes as soon as i took over the transition effort. we made changes. we moved lobbyists out of the transition team, and that's going to continue to be a loadst viewers that the president-elect is determined to move ethics reform in the next year in the congress of the united states. a lot of people around the country want to see us drain the swamp. they want to see fundamental ethics reform. that's going to happen starting january 20th. >> dickerson: just to button that up, so no lobbyists or donors in the administration as he promised. that's right? >> well, i think what the president-elect has made clear is that we're going to have

are 100% focused on serving the american people and moving the trump agenda forward. and to sit with him in these interviews that have been taking place over the last week, to sit with him with congressional leaders, as the two of us did a week ago, is to see someone who is completely focused on keeping the promises that he made to the american people. i got the tell you, it's really been inspiring to be standing shoulder to shoulder with our president-elect, even in these few short days since that historic election. >> dickerson: but that doesn't quite sound like a yes to me. so it seems like there's some wiggle room on the no lobbyists and donors, so we'll look for some clarity on that to come, but let me ask you about this question: the "wall street journal" has asked that mr. trump liquidate his holdings with his business. will he? >> i saw that editorial. what i can tell you is that i'm

president-elect and his extraordinarily talented family will work with the best legal minds in this country and create the proper separation from their business enterprise during his duties as president of the united states. to be around him is to be around man who is completely focused on the people's business, and to get to know his children is to get to know men and women of extraordinary capability who i know he's confident they can lead thein energies, all of his focus on the people's business. >> dickerson: should employees of the trump businesses be involved at all in the people's business, if government business, meetings? >> well, i think during this transition, it is very helpful. >> dickerson: how about during the presidency? >> well, i think during the presidency there will be the proper separation.

viewers that to be around president-elect donald trump now is to be around someone who, while he has built literally one of the most prosperous businesses in the country, he's man who is spending all of his energies and all of his focus on that agenda that he campaigned on. it's about bringing personnel together. we'll have more extraordinary men and women here in new jersey today who are under consideration for positions of enormous import, but it's also that we're going to start on day one in this congress to implement. the president-elect has already made the decision in conversations with republican leaders in the house and senate that we're going to lift the extraordinary burden of obamacare off the backs of the american people and off the backs of american businesses. repealing obamacare will be the first priority in a session that will be characterized by tax reform, rebuilding the military, infrastructure, ending illegal

>> dickerson: here's the question for a candidate that worked so hard and made such a strong point about draining the swamp, about the the washington culture of self-dealing. you'd expect brighter lines in terms of the private business and a presidency. if a foreign country, for example, does business with the trump industries, would we expect to see that notified... a notification of that? because you could imagine somebody trying to do business with the trump family as a way of getting in g trump president. >> john, what i can assure you and all of your viewers is that all of the laws pertaining to his business dealings and his service as president of the united states will be strictly adhered to. and he's set that tone from the very beginning. but the other part is just, you know, i'm very confident that we will operate an administration that is above reproach with regard to all of those issues.

leadership is because he wasn't a career politician. he spent an entire lifetime as a builder, creating jobs, building a business enterprise, and the american people said yes to bringing a builder and a business leader into the white house. we'll create the proper legal separation, above reproach, as he goes forward. i promise you, president-elect donald trump is today and president donald trump, after january 20th, is going to be completely focused on the leave his business life in the pass. >> dickerson: let me ask you a policy question. senator john mccain is worried about waterboarding. the kansas congressman mike pompeo who is going to be going to the c.i.a. supports mr. trump's position that perhaps waterboarding should come back. let's listen to what senator mccain said. >> i don't give a damn what the president of the united states wants to do or what anybody else wants to do, we will not

my god, what does it say about america if we're going to inflict torture on people? >> dickerson: what's your response to that? >> well, i have great respect for senator senator mccain. what i can tell you is going forward, as he outlined in that famous speech in ohio, that a president donald trump is going to focus on confronting and defeating radical islamic terrorism as a threat to this country. president again who will never say what we'll never do. i think in president-elect donald trump, you have someone who believes that we shouldn't be telling the enemy what our tactics or our strategies are, and i know that in conversations with some leading americans about playing roles in our administration, we're very excited about congressman pompeo's role at the c.i.a. we're very excited to see general mike flynn stepping into his leadership position.

president-elect assembles at the department of defense will all advise him, but the american people should know this is a president who on day one, january 20th, is going to focus on defeating and destroying isis at its source and confronting radical islamic terrorism so it can no longer threaten our people or inspire violence here in the homeland. >> dickerson: at the moment, though, water boring is something the united states government does not do, so we... the enemy already knows that the united states does. is it going to be reassessed by the trump administration? >> well, i think the president-elect made his views on that quite clear during the course of the campaign, but as we go forward, what i can tell you is it's not going to be about a specific tactic. what i see in these meetings with the president-elect and candidates for our national security and our national defense is someone who is

extraordinary background and capability. we have real challenges around the world today, john, and the american people should know that president-elect donald trump is going to surround himself with men and women who are going to ensure our national defense. we're going to rebuild our military. but this is going to be a president that is going to be determined to destroy isis and to confront radical islamic terrorism, so it can no longer threaten our people here at home >> dickerson: finally, mr. vice president-elect, you went to see "hamilton." the actors sent a message to you. part of it was, "we are the diverse america that are alarm and anxious that our new administration will not protect us." why do you think they're alarmed and anxious? >> well, first off, i took my daughter and her cousins to the show friday night, and john, if you haven't seen it yet, it's a great show.

off to the cast and to the extraordinary team that brought "hamilton" to the public. we really enjoyed being there. i heard the remarks that were made at the end. and, you know, what i can tell you is i wasn't offended by what was said. i'll leave to others whether it was the appropriate venue the say it, but i want to assure people who were disappointed in the election result, people who are feeling anxious about this time in the life of our nation that president-elect donald on election night, that he is going to be the president of all the people of the united states of america. and to see this man who is bringing this energy and this leadership to the process of assembling this team and laying out an agenda to revive our country and strengthen america at home and abroad is to see someone who is not only a great mind but a great heart. he's got heart for the american

actor who spoke that night, that president-elect donald trump is going to be president of all the people. and i couldn't be more honored to stand with him. >> dickerson: vice president-elect mike pence, we'll leave it there, and we'll be back in a moment. hey there, hi. why do people have eyebrows? why do people put milk on cereal? oh, are you reading why people put milk on cereal? why does your tummy go "grumbily, grumbily, grumbily"? why is it all (mimics a stomach grumble) no more questions for you! ooph, that milk in your cereal was messing with you, wasn't it?

try lactaid, it's real milk, without that annoying lactose. good, right? mmm, yeah. i got your back. lactaid. it's the milk that doesn't mess with you. >> dickerson: we turn now to kentucky senator rand paul. senator, welcome back. let's start with the trump cabinet or possible trump cabinet picks. you said you would block maybe rudy giuliani they were put forward for positions in the trump administration. why? >> i supported donald trump. one of the reasons i did is that i liked what he had to say about the iraq war was a mistake. i think that's an important historical lesson. it's not a matter of when he said it or who he said it to. it's matter of he understands that the iraq war was a mistake and regime change was a mistake. i think it would be inconsistent with his campaign theme. i want people who run the state

i'm trying to be helpful here. the problem with both bolton and giuliani is they're unrepentened in their support of the iraq war, and that means they're liable to commit it again. hillary clinton said she thought she was wrong to vote for the iraq war, but she did the same thing in syria. i think it's important the head of the state department understands what donald trump said over and over aga iraq war was a mistake. >> dickerson: would you include mitt romney, who vice president-elect mike pence said is under consideration in that state basket? >> i'm not sure i would call him unrepentant, he is somebody who has supportedded the iraq war. i would want to hear more. i think we should ask, no matter what the stature of the person, we should ask, what are your beliefs? was the iraq war a mistake? are you for regime change? do you think toppling assad in syria will lead the a better world or safer world?

libya did, toppling mubarak? they're important questions. as far as reasonability, if i were to rank romney up there with someone i think is a reasonable, even-keel versus a giuliani or a bolton, i think giuliani and bolton are out there on the extreme. i don't think they're very diplomatic, and i think you want the chief diplomat to be diplomatic. bolton might be better as a secretary of war, but he's certainly not a diplomat or someone who acts in a way or thinks that diplomacy might be an alternative to war. >> dickerson: you have any of your own candidates you would put forward? >> i'm afraid i don't get to pick. i wish i got to pick. but they have said in the mix, bob corker was in the mix. i find him to be very reasonable, very knowledgeable with foreign affairs as head of the foreign relations committee. i think he's interacted with many of our foreign leaders. i think that's what you want as a reasonable, calming hand at the state department. you don't want someone throwing bombs or advocating regime

advocated for regime change in iran, and that doesn't sound like diplomacy. that sounds like war. >> dickerson: right. have you been contacted by anybody in the trump orbit to say, to address your concerns? >> well, we have, we've had conversations with them, nothing public or nothing i care to make public, but we we have had conversations. it's a very close vote. there's 52 republicans. some of the people that have been put forward i think are not guaranteed to get any support, so they lose my support and a couple other republicans. many republicans have come up to me and said, you know what, bolton is a bomb-thrower. he's not this even keel with a world view that we want over there. we want someone a little more rational or reasonable. so i think that there are several potential republican votes against someone like a bolton, possibly giuliani. the other thing giuliani will stir up is it will be a hornet's fles on all the financial stuff. >> dickerson: what did you make of vice president-elect pence's remarks about

it seems like that's now open for discussion again. >> well, you know, the bush administration said we weren't going to do it. the obama administration said we weren't going to do it. the international community condemns it. i think it is torture. and while john mccain and i don't always agree on everything, we have our disagreements, a few time, but on this i absolutely think john mccain is right. instead of holding this to owrlses and being ambiguous about it, we should telegraph to the world that we're better than this and we don't torture and this is why we are exceptional aspl >> drew: you have also been a vocal critic of what the government does to looking into its citizens' business, whether it's vote collection of data or wiretapping. given that mindset, what is your view about the elevation of jeff sessions to attorney general and mike pompeo to the c.i.a.? >> you know, i am a fierce advocate of privacy and think you do have a right to privacy and that your records, whether they're in the possession of the phone company or not, that you

in those records. we all sign privacy agreements every time. we do a come pewter search with a computer search company or with a telephone company. i think we have a right the privacy. i'm hope. , but i also know that this president doesn't necessarily agree with me on this next president. so we'll see. i'll continue to be an equal opportunity defender of the bill of rights, whether it's a republican or democrat. >> dickerson: do you have any specific concerns with respect to sessions and pompeo? >> right. it does concern me, yes. but i would say that with pompeo, he's going to have to also answer to my liking whether or not he's still for or the chun. whether or not he's for waterboarding. he's also been for expanding n.s.a. powers. many of the n.s.a. powers were done i think in secret without the knowledge of most members of congress. even some members who were authors or coauthors of the patriot act said we never intended for them to collect all that data in utah, and they didn't tell us.

pompeo will be are there secret programs that even congress doesn't know about? i think there still are programs ongoing that the bulk of congress is not aware of. >> dickerson: what do you think the senate's oversight role is with respect to donald trump and then the trump businesses? >> you know, i think that he probably will have every legal right to not put things in a blind trust, but it may continue to come up if there is an appearance that a certain country has a trump hotel and that there's more visits to hotel, will that be a problem? yeah, i think he'll get dogged about it. so probably it's legal for him not to completely separate, but my advice, if i were asked, would be try to do the best you can to separate so you don't have this. it will deter you from things you want to get done if everybody keeps asking you about what about the trump hotel you visited. >> we just had a big campaign which the fuzzy line between the clinton foundation and hillary

crucial sign of her weakness as president, so why would a president wanting to drain the swamp not have a problem? >> this would be the same with giuliani and his dealings around the world. if you just spent a year and a half for criticizing clinton from taking money from foreign countries, you better be careful about appointing someone who has taken a lot of money from foreign countries, as well. >> dickerson: donald trump talked about a ford plant in kentucky this week. did he do anything to help keep >> maybe. i think people misconstrue this. the jobs were never leaving, well, an assembly line was leaving, so maybe the potential of jobs was leaving. something was going. i think there is some value to the bully pulpit. people say, well, how is he going to do this? well, maybe talking a tough line on trade and that, you know, there will be repercussions if you leave the country, maybe it did change their mind. i don't know. but i'm willing to give him a little credit for it simply

vehicle is not going to mexico, whether the jobs are going or not, something was going to mexico, and now it's not. sounds good to me. >> dickerson: all right. senator rand paul, we appreciate having you here. we'll look forward to having you back, and we'll be back in a moment with a tribute to our moment with a tribute to our friend, gwen ifill. r more than d of energy-related carbon emissions. the challenge is to capture the emissions before they're released into the atmosphere. is working to make this technology better, more affordable so it can reduce emissions around the world. that's what we're working on right now. ?

impressive linda. it seems age isn't slowing you down. but your immune system weakens as you get older increasing the risk for me, the shingles virus. i've been lurking inside you since you had chickenpox. i could surface anytime as a painful, blistering rash. one in three people get me in their lifetime, linda. will it be you? and that's why linda got me zostavax, a single shot vaccine. i'm working to boost linda's immune system to help protect her against you, shingles. zostavax is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults fifty years of age and older. zostavax does not protect everyone and cannot be used to treat shingles or the nerve pain that may follow it. you should not get zostavax if you are allergic to gelatin or neomycin, have a weakened immune system or take high doses of steroids are pregnant or plan to become pregnant. the most common side effects include redness, pain, itching, swelling, hard lump warmth or bruising at the injection site and headache. it's important to talk to your doctor

ckenpox virus. remember one in three people get shingles in their lifetime, will it be you? talk you to your doctor or pharmacist about me, single shot zostavax. you've got a shot against shingles. >> dickerson: the nation lost a great journalist when pbs "newshour" co-anchor and "washington week" host gwen here at "face the nation" we lost a dear friend. >> this is not a debate about ideology. >> dickerson: over the years gwen brought her insight, her love of reporting and her ability to puncture to the roundtable. >> it must make her crazy to have david axelrod as her defender. >> dickerson: she also joined in questioning from time to time. >> last i checked, they have not swayed in their decision to have this kind of enquiry. what is the point in continuing

>> dickerson: quakers say let your light shine, and gwen's inner light beamed with her smile. the tributes to her used so many words to describe that smile, the the sauce was empty. he chose joy, her friend said at her funeral yesterday, it was a conscious project. she sent notes to see how you were doing, checked in on journalists she had mentored, and devoted herself to her church, her family and her friends. garment and you felt it. the effect was visible to others. a colleague wrote me this week, "you always looked happy and inspired on her show. when you were around gwen, you couldn't help it."

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>> dickerson: welcome back the "face the nation." i'm john dickerson. while republicans are busy preparing for a trump administration, democrats are doing some soul-searching. >> when you lose the white house to the least-popular candidate in the history of america, when you lose the senate, when you lose the house, and when two-thirds of governors in this country are republicans, it is time for a new direction for the democratic party. >> dickerson: one of those auditioning for the job as the new head of the democratic party is minnesota congressman keith ellison. he joins us from minneapolis. congressman, what should the new direction for the democratic party be? >> well, we've got to strengthen the grassroots. you know, we got 3,141 counties in many, many cities across this

the power needs to be in their hands. we need the make sure the resources are with them and everything else. we need the prioritize voter turnout. that doesn't mean get out the vote at the end of the election. that means 365 day a year engagement relationship building with voters around what their priorities are. we got to make sure that the democratic party is not just democratic but seen to be democratic. that means we got to have systems in place that make sure that everybody who participates in a primary iser else. and we have to make sure that... yes? >> dickerson: continue your list. >> well, i mean, we've got to also create more collaboration. we have democrats who hold office with secretaries of state. those folks run the levels we need the stand up for them. city officials, college dems, organized labor needs to have a whole lot more say so and a lot

we've got to make sure our veteran, democratic veterans are strengthened and feel like they are fully included. we have got to just make sure that the democratic rank and file really owns the party and feels that it is theirs, that it is fair, and that's what we've got to do. >> dickerson: the reason i wanted you to finish your list is i noticed donald trump wasn't in it. there are a lot of democrats organizing, planning, and setting themselves up as an opposition party to donald trump and using that as an oan that wasn't in your list. how should democrats think about donald trump? 100% opposed, work with him? >> well, donald trump is already proven where he's going with the thing. there was a political article entitled "why wall street is suddenly in love with donald trump" he's not derange the swamp. he's filling it up more. and there's going to be more swamp creatures than ever before. i mean, he is... lobbyists and big-time investment bankers, he's not doing what he said he

average, working americans. we have to be there to work with all those folks who may have not voted or even voted for him. they are our natural constituents. but we have to show them that we really care about them, that we respected their voice, and that we are going to be fighting for them tooth and nail. but i would say the democrats, we should not make donald trump the pick to l point of all of our energy. we need to make the people, the average work-a-day american who we are fighting for and make that crystal clear every single >> dickerson: let me ask you, congressman. one argument some democrats say is democrats should not normalize, a buzz word you hear constantly, donald trump, not treat him as a normal president. what's your advice to democrats about that? >> well, we should be authentic, and he's clearly not normal. he ran on... he talked about jobs, and yet he has hurt workers all over this country; in las vegas, atlantic city, even in florida. he has undermined workers.

and not paid contractors. his level of abuse of working people is extraordinary. and not to mention his racism, misogany extraordinary, as well. it's hard to normalize that. we can never do it. but i would just say that it's not about donald trump. we're going to fight him because he stands against our value system. but if we make the average american's needs, our priority, people who want to retire, people who want to see their kids go to college, people who want to eaa people anxious about the plant closing down, moving to another country and selling them back the products they used to make. if we make those people the priority, we will win and donald trump will be relegated to be a footnote in the dustbin of history. that is what we have to cork focus on our people. >> dickerson: congressmen, thanks so much for being with us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. >> any time.

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[laughter] >> i'm sorry. keep it? >> yeah, keep it. all of it. no change. >> okay. let's just hold that for later. all right. >> dickerson: "saturday night live" made light of the policy changes ahead for the new seriousness, whether thell president-elect will stick with his campaign promises and can they be enacted? we have assembled a panel of experts, mos leanings. lanhee chen is a cnn political commentator and fellow at the hoover institution at stanford youth. grover norquist is president of the conservative group americans for tax reform. maya macguineas is president of the non-partisan committee for responsible federal budget. and david frum is a senior editor atlantic and a former speechwriter for george w. bush.

potential conflicts and trump business, what do you make about initial responses how that will be handled? >> not good. i think the very first order of businesses for publics who want to ensure a successful administration is to corruption >> proof the administration. that's going to be a big problem. the surest way to do is that is to passes a law formalizing a law that the president must publish his tax returns: it may or may not be possible. the president may or may not be willing to divest himself, but the way for the public to be what the president has, whether he receives any benefit, because of the particular nature of donald trump's businesses, everything that happens at the trump organization flows into his tax return. so if we can see the tax return, we can know, is anyone trying to bribe him? has anyone succeeded? >> dickerson: grover, donald trump campaigned on draining the swamp. he campaigned on getting rid of self-dealing in washington. it was not a small issue some when mike pence was kind of vague, he said, trust me, it

be you expect brighter lines from a candidate who spent so much time talking about changing washington? >> yeah. look, you want to change all of washington. the focus on trump is interesting, but there's a house, there's a senate, there are governors, an entire bureaucracy. we need to reduce the amount of money the federal government spends if you don't want people stealing it, the best way to do that is to have less of it spent. very important that the republicans maintain their ban on earmarks. earmarks have been the currency of corruption in washington, d.c., for years and years and years. some people want to bring it back. we should make sure, one, we stop that, and, two, instead of having money for roads come to washington, dc, where we then send it back out with a series of regulations and strings on it, including the davis-bacon act, a racist act passed in the 1930s to keep african americans competing in those jobs, it should be repealed because it's racist, and it also raises the cost of anything the federal

33%. one, get rid of the davis-bacon act. west virginia just got rid of their version. wisconsin did. a number of states have abolished that. we should at the federal level, and we should let states raise their own money and build their own roads and bring trillions into washington, dc, to spend. real corrupting. >> dickerson: lanhee, grover had a nice list of things to be done, but back to the president, who is no small actor in what could he do, other than what david suggested, which is publishing those tax returns, what else might you expect from a president who ran so forcefully on the idea of changing the way washington works in terms of his own relationships? >> i think certainly he should hold himself to a higher standard. if there are concerns particularly about what's happening within the dealings in his family business, he should think about ways to put up more vigorous fire walls frankly between what his family is doing with the business and what he might be doing with the people's

think about that. i think this issue of lobbyists is important. i think the administration or the president-elect's administration kind of turning around and saying, we are going to make a serious effort to ensure that there is not the kind of revolving door we may have seen in previous administrations by putting in place, for example, this five-year ban. i think that's a great idea. the essence of the trump candidacy is as the outsider. it's crucially important for his credibility but also the credibility of republicans who were elected with him for him to completely above reproach. >> dickerson: let me ask you now, switching and going back to grover's point, the budget. so we have promises that were made on the campaign trail, and then we have the reality of the budget. where should peopleing to figure out where the rubber meets the road, what should they look to? >> for starters, president-elect trump is going to be inheriting the worst fiscal situation of any president as judged by the debt relative to the economy. other than president truman when he's walking into office.

he spent a lot of time on the campaign talking about the portion of getting that $20 trillion debt back down. and yet we looked at the proposal, but he put forth during the campaign. they would, in fact, add over $5 thril to national debt, and that's on top of borrowing $9 trillion that we are poised to do if we this nothing. so he has a huge challenge ahead of him. he's also going to be working with the republican congress that for years has said it's very important to balance the budget over a ten-year period. have the house, the senate and the white house, are they suddenly going to pull back from those fiscal goals because he has these unpaid-for-tax cuts, infrastructure spending, increases in defense, lots of things that are going to balloon the debt, or are they going to hold those fiscal goals which are very important for helping to grow the economy. >> the flip side is donald trump during the campaign did not say much about medicare or social security. remember, the three biggest

debt going forward are health care spending, social security and net interest on the debt. so unless we do something about those quickly, this is a problem like compounding interest is a good thing when you invest, this is the opposite of that. so it's crucially important. i'm glad to see that republicans have begun to focus on medicare reform. that's the more intractable of the two problems between medicare and social security. i think it's important for him to revisit what he said during the campaign, which is he didn't want to touch social security. >> that's right. >> i think it's we look at things like the retirement age and the growth of benefits. >> there is something surreal. we're in a city that's had a two-party system. there's a republican party, the democratic party and the trump party. the republican party has priorities, and lanhee is the expert on what those are and should be. they're right and important. but the president has his own priorities, and they are summed up with that photograph of him with those dubious inyen businessmen giving the thumbs-up sign that was tweeted out. what is going to be very

it must prevent the trump party from accomplishing its goals, which are of a very different and much dirtier order. >> you can start where there's tremendous agreement. the tax proposal that trump has put forward is very similar to the one that's been put forward by the house republicans, brady and the ways and means committee. and ryan, paul ryan. taking the corporate rate from 35% to 20% or 15%, i prefer that. would be tremendous. going to full expensing, which both plans have would shoot up growth. you'd look at growth from 2% to 4%. the most important thing the president and the house and senate can do is get economic growth back on path. we've had anemic growth and recovery. we've been in recovery for seven and a half years, but it's been the losest recover i in a long time. we need to be growing at 4%. you grow for a decade at 4% instead of 2%, the federal

in addition to revenue. >> dickerson: have we ever had that? >> under reagan. until bush decided to raise taxes. >> as a big proponent of tax reform, there are some important difference, which is a donald trump tax plan would lose trillions where the members of the republican party are saying, tax reform should be revenue neutral. i think that's a really important objective. >> dynamic scoring. >> because to add up with spending proposals, taking en which i think is a very unwise idea and really stands in the way of getting this done, and dealing with the debt, you can't have a big loss from your tax reform. in terms of growing the economy, there's a big difference now than when we saw growth before. right now our economy is projected to grow at about 2%. and donald trump talked about growth rates of twice or three times that much. but we have a big challenge, which is changing demographics. as the baby boomers move into retirement, in order to get those higher growth rates, you

we've never seen in this country. so i think one thing that's important here is let's aspire to grow the economy, you do that through tax reform, through public investment, but you also do that for paying for your proposals and controlling the debt, but let's not wish for it and assume sort of magical numbers that are unlikely to materialize. >> if you want to do those things grover is talking about, if you want to do them, you have to prevent this administration from being devoured and consumed by scandal. donald trump has made it clear his plan so the run the le if least ethical administration in a long, long time. if that is not... if any of this is to happen, this administration must be trump-proof. the president is up to no good. he's made that very clear. he's got... he's indicating to the japanese, this is... if you have business with me, this is the person to talk. to he's indicating to the indians, if you have business, these are the people to talk. to if he does, that i guarantee 18 months from now when you convene the show, you will not be talking about taxes or debt, you will be talking about the

system and the republican party from the things this president seems to have in mind. >> dickerson: let me ask you another question, lanhee, about other ways capital can be spent, which is we've talked about budget and tax reform, but there are other things trump has on the priority list,immigration is one of them. how hard do you think that will be and do you think that will expend some capital that then can't be used on these very hard other things, tax reform, medicare and so forth? >> i think it's a very dangerous thing that distort with. it's a campaign priority. it's important to the president-elect. we recognize that that's going to be a priority for this administration. but you think about all of the other important issues. we've talked about them. certainly tax reform. what's going to happen with obamacare? this is something that's been a signature issue for republicans since the last six year since the law was passed and signed into law. what's going to be done in terms of the repeal, and more importantly is the question about what you're going to replace it with. i'm a little alarmed that we seem to be thinking we can kick

care act. there are some very important policy goals that republicans have been working to accomplish for some time, for example, parity in the tax treatment of health care between those who get it from employers and those who why it on their own. that should be a focus of the discussion. we need to focus on that first rather than some of these other issues, which frankly i don't think have as much potential to grow the economy, certainly not in a way that mr. trump has talked about. >> dickerson: grover? >> i think on health care, and trump has spoken to this, allowing people from new jersey companies in iowa, allowing them to cross borders, even the government said that would drop the cost about 15%. that's an important reform that makes all the other reforms easier. we need to get spending down, as well as regulations. we've been talking about taxes, but the reduce act of ken calvert has put forward to reduce the number of civilian employees at the pentagon by 15%. they've grown 15% in the bush-obama years. >> dickerson: but they're going to grow more under donald

>> he wants to talk about more troops. i'm talking about sismian employees. troops have gone down 4%. the civilian population has gone up 15%. what reduce act does is takes it back down 15%, back to where it had been, compared to the number of troops you have. that saves $80 billion in five years. that's an important reform and if we're going to do more on the military in some areas, we need to get rid of the wasteful spending that we don't need to do. calvert's got a very important bill add to whatever your answer was going to be in the last 40 seconds. donald trump trillion dollar infrastructure bill. how does that fit in the coming budget? >> right. so infrastructure is one of the few areas where both democrats and republicans tend to agree that we need to do more spending there. but if you look at what the congressional budget office found, we know that infrastructure can be a very important component of an economic growth strategy. but they also found that if you were row to do that, it will actually shrink the economy.

if you were row to do a big tax cut, it could shrink the economy. i think the problem we have, the big challenge, gofer is focusing on the spending that's the smaller part of the budget. we need the look at the big parts of the budget back the entitlements. that's 50% of the budget. 75% of the growth. and two, if you want to grow the economy, you can't were row your way the growth. we have to get control of the national debt. so they're going to have to make choices. that's what budgets. are it's about choices. we are moving from campaigning to governing. now we have to look at real choices. >> drew: we have to stop. >> there we look forward to coming back and talking about the choices later. thanks to all of you. just stay with us.

>> dickerson: we're joined now by max stier, an expert in presidential transitions. max, i want to start, give us a sense of the scope of a transition. >> transitions are huge when you think about this. it's the largest, most important takeover of any organization, not just on the planet, but in history. you have a four trillion dollar organization, four million people when you count the military, you have 4,000 political appointees, and i

the spoil system, so talk about drain the swamp, another conversation. it's an 1,100 of those 4,000 have to go through the senate confirmation process. you have to put together a budget. you have to deal with not only all the things that are coming at you, but things you cannot expect, the asteroids that inevitably take place in a world as dangerous as this one. >> dickerson: so that's why both campaigns, although now it only matters that the trump campaign started their transition work a while ago, but if they started months ago, how much of this work c ahead of time in >> well, you're exactly right. if you only focus on the period between the election and inauguration, there is no possible way you can be ready. you have to start earlier. both campaigns did. clinton and trump did very, very strong work. the hard part comes now, because you're right, there's only so much you can do preelection. then you have to merge your campaign and your transition apparatus, but you have to move over real fast. most folks are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

appointments. the reality is what are the goals that the transition teams are actually taking on? they ought to be taking on the proposition that they need to make sure that they have a team on the field, a quick team from day one, from the second they actually run the government. transitions are also the point of maximum vulnerability for us in a post-9/11 world. we have to make sure that the new president has the team in place, that they have a game plan and they're ready to go from second one after they swear on that bible. >> dickerson: how possible that realistically, though, or if not, give us some number of months that it might take to get a team fully in place? >> i think it is more than anybody can ever fully get done, but they have to move the ball fur -- further down the field. people are looking the wrong way when they look in the rer -- rear-view mirror and say, how much did obama do, how much did bush do? you have to make sure your white house is fully staffed by right

confirmed people in place. that means you have to move with dispatch and you have to be thinking about this as teams, not as single individuals, because you'll never get there if you add one, one, one. you have to do it in bigger groups. >> drew: where is the trump team on your got to move fast time line? >> well, too early to tell. i think more important point is not how many have they named but have they embraced the objective of being ready t they'll have a team in place, a game plan designed and they've built relationships they need with critical steak holders, congress, the federal workforce and others? >> dickerson: last 30 second, we talked about quantity. talk about quality. some people you will be picked. you will never hear about them but they have real power. >> drew: you're 100% right. we've been producing job descriptions of those 4,000 jobs. they don't exist otherwise. we need people who are not just outsiders or people with with the policy alignment that the

who can actually manage real large organizations. you look in the past, whether it was hurricane katrina, healthcare.gov, these are manage. problems. the government has to be top at the very top leadership positions with the very best experienced people we can possibly get. >> dickerson: max stier, thank you for that description. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> dickerson: we'll be back in a moment. bp gives its offshore teams 24/7 support from onshore experts, so we have extra sets of eyes on our wells every day.

and always working to be better. [burke] hot dog. seen it. covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.

>> dickerson: that's it for us today. thanks for watching. until next week for "face the nation." i'm john dickerson. >> they may be the greatest american sports team of a generation, so why aren't they paid like one? hear from the stars of u.s. women's soccer.

everyone, i'm brooke burke-charvet and this is chicken soup for the soul's hidden heroes. on this episode, pups that are trained to give parents peace of mind. i realized what bruno could bring into our lives. brooke: and then, a college student with a clear vision for the future. yash: i did some research and learned that it was really a big problem around the world. brooke: plus a young inventor fueled by a love for her grandfather. lily: i came up with the idea sometime at dinner when my grandpa actually spilled a drink. it's just great knowing that it's helping so many people. brooke: it's time to turn the cameras on the