good morning i am hugh bureaus this august sunday. thank you for joining us on mosaic. this is a summer conversation with reverend ron swisher. i get to turn the tables and welcome him as a guest. >> yeah, we do this usually in the summer. there have been some big news in your life professionally, a church change. tell us about it. >> this stud owe is new, and i am in a new community. i was at tate memorial. it was my home church. my mother has been a member there 67 years. i have associated other places. easter hill richmond, superintendent sacramento and i

started off in east oakland where i met you. >> hillside. >> yeah, hillside. so going to my home church after 25 years of ministry and that was new and i was well received even though some times you are not welcome back at your home. i was there for 12 years then three weeks ago the bishop called and said we would like to see you move on to another church . that was new for me but i said let's go with it and it was st. marks united methodist in orinda, 25 minutes away, through the tunnel, right before you get to go to walnut creek and other places, lafayette and so forth. so that was a change. i have been there a month or so and i have gotten to know the people and they have been very warm and receptive and it has been good to have some of my members from other churches to come, glide and taylor and easter hill to visit me. it has been just great they

have been well received, radical hospitality there. >> so tell us about the emotional part of pastor leaving congregation. how does it really work in the methodist church, united methodist which is probably mainline and typical. what are emotional, spiritual, what are the rules that go on? >> yeah, that's right. but it is done primarily january to june we always make the change in july 1st. ideally we would like to make that known february or march so you have some months. i was not notified until mid- june to change july. that was quite a change also for the pastor leaving, who had been there at st. marks, so we all had to go into rapid change plus the pastor following me, so there was a lot of change

for all of us plus the congregation they were not ready for it, it was new for them, and so we've had to go through a lot of i think change you know like for instance when we leave a church we have to go away for a year. we can't come back to do funerals, wedding, all the baptisms and different connections we have had for people with all those years we have to place that in suspension for awhile. >> this is emotional. >> it is difficult for a congregation there are rules in place to give the new person a chance. >> it is a rule across the board. we had one pastor kept the keys to the church and would come and have meetings to the church. we said we have to make that -- some people would understand the boundaries and some people don't. we make the rule not to come

back. >> st. marks united methodist church, what exit do you take to get to the church? you might as well give us some directions. >> right go right through the tunnel. the second tunnel. orinda you see the exit and follow it to maraga way. about 2 miles after that on your left-hand side, and very nice, wonderful sanctuary. everyone who visits there. 50 years old. not an old church. 50 years old this year they celebrated 50th anniversary celebrations. just very warm, a frame, and it looks out on to nature. windows all around it so you have deer come up some times and people you thing are not being attentive to your message they are watching the deer. >> what time on sunday morning in. >> 10:30 a.m. every sunday. >> a change ron swisher's parish news. stay with us when we come back

we will talk more about some matters in the which are. in the summer time mmmm. you don't love me anymore do you billy? what? i didn't buy this cereal to sweet talk your taste buds it's for my heart health. so i can't have any? if you can deprive me of what can help lower my cholesterol... and live with yourself. right. mmm, i worry about your mother. cry herself to sleep every night over my arteries, but have yourself a bowl. good speech dad. [ whimper ] [ male announcer ] honey nut cheerios tastes great and its whole grain oats can help lower cholesterol. bee happy. bee healthy. [ female announcer ] yoplait's real fruit and the goodness of dairy... gives you a little slice of happy. and happiness comes in 25 delicious flavors. explore them all. yoplait. it is so good.

the yoplait you can't get enough of. now in a four pack. >> >> hugh bower hugh burrows, with ron swisher. church things let's talk about congregations and the time we live in and how you think they are doing and then we want to get to the role of the preacher and some conferences you have been there. do you get some sense from congregations over the past few years that have rules changed any? do people want something different from a church? >> that is a good question. i think as you know churches from all denominations, particularly mainline churches, are struggling, losing

membership, dying, we i don't know how many churches we closed this past june, just close churches when you have only a handful of people in worship and this huge facility it is not viable or effective. that is across the board. i just took a course in preaching from the great james forbes, retired minister at river side church and we had denominations every person in there was a different denomination, presbyterians, episcopalians, catholics, lutherans, methodist, baptist, meant coastals. a great -- pentecost talls. a great class but all talks about where are the numbers. how effective can you be. all churches want youth and young adults where do you get them when you don't have youth and young adults there. they come and do ministry, put

them in some type of ministry. i think some youth and young adults interested in social justice ministries and old tribal you probably found that to be true. >> what is the role of the congregation then right now, what -- why attend a church? why bother to be involved when obviously maybe it is not fashionable or required. >> well, i think that the spiritual side of touching the soul and spirit, finding meaning and purpose has always been the message i think recently the text was martha and mary and where jesus is, anxious and distracted about so many things and mary chose the thing that is most needed. religious faith is about that which is ultimate. ultimate concern that which is primary, conservative.

people are still looking for meaning and purpose and that is where the church hopefully brings but also as i mentioned earlier i think the social justice, get people to turn the faith into works is still very, you know, important, and vital to ministry. >> i guess i would add only one thing, there is a sense of community too. >> right. >> and i remember, a young couple in the church i pastored saying the church keeps me from getting too high or too low. they were in the.com thing right then and they were worth millions and millions of dollars and then all of a sudden they weren't. so the role of the church as a community that proceeds all the way through in your life when things are looking aces and not and times particularly i think of the death and illness, critical life changing things you have a group of people i sort of see it as a metaphor of the ship, sailing through time

with a collection of people, to me that is a strong value more so than the insistence upon faith. a lot of the more evangelical churches insist you have a certain faith to come in. i sense that you grow in faith you enter the door in search of the eternal thing but some times it is the cookie and coffees afterward. >> right that is true. that is true. one of the effective practices of churches i have heard for five years now is radical hospitality. so i think that is part of it having a community where people feel a part of each other and this course on preaching the gospel of holistic health. he pointed out not only is the spirit important but the mind, body and soul but also what you are saying community, relationships, and then the environment you know, paul said

romans, creation years and groans for completion, and wholeness and healing just like we do. we are all connected not just individuals. >> that connection i think some body -- one of my parishioners who since passed away i said why do you come to church he said well, it makes me feel good. i pursued that a little bit. he wasn't -- he was a profound thinker but not articulate theologically he says i come into the church it is a safe space for me i know that i can go there and i can think about whatever has happened in the past week and there is a certain sameness in the liturgy and church service, hymns and all that and it is that good habit of going into a place dedicated to god that fills you. i think that too is a value of

going to church so met a couple preachers, should be talking about that and we should probably get back and talk about some preaching and sermons we want to hear about -- remind us who dr. forbes is. so we will go out a little early here and give you a little bit more time in the next segment i am hugh burrows. stay with us we are talking with ron swisher field trips to the zoo! more basketballs. soccer balls. and a museum! [ growls ] more basketballs. soccer balls! more books. yeah. like just a ton of books. [ girl ] and books about soft things. soft and slimy. [ female announcer ] now clip double box tops for education. from totino's pizza rolls and party pizzas.

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yeah. you must really care about him. what? no, no. you gave him fiber. no she didn't. this tastes way too good to be fiber. they're delicious crunchy clusters with sweet honey and half a day's worth of fiber. you care about my fiber? not really. i care about your fiber too. i have for a while. ok, carl. why don't you care about her fiber? hey carl. [ male announcer ] fiber one. cardboard no. delicious yes. we're back on this august sunday talking with reverend hugh swisher. beginning to talk about his move from a new church to a new church in orinda he has just been to a preaching conference. here is an opportunity to let a preacher talk about preaching in a role. >> again, dr. forbes was at river side church 18 years followed the great --

>> famous because? >> well, rockefeller built it in the 1930s for one person in mind that was harry emmer son fosting that voice of progressive christianity the dominant note was fundamentalism. if you didn't believe certain tenants, you were not a believer. he was just a great person who dominated preaching for decades you have that tradition. 1967 river side church dr. king gave a speech against the vietnam war. he was the first to come out against the war. everyone turned out against him at that time. 19 2, nelson mandela, when he was released from prison he came tariffer side. great ed bradly on 60 minutes had his funeral there. journalists came from all over and luther van dross had his

funeral there. all these celebrities came. forbes talks about all these celebrities rush upfront in the gospel it says don't come in take the front seat but take the backseat. well, when the family came in all these celebrities upfront they had to go to the balcony. but any way that is some examples of the church and as a great history of hundreds of ministries, forbes is great i heard him back in the 80s in a lecture and heard him all over the country and difference conferences he combines intellect with spirit. he is pentecost tall so he puts a lot of emphasis on the spirit but has a dock trait in theology. -- doctorate in theology. as jesus says loves god with all your heart, mind, soul, strength and neighbor as

yourself. preaching must appeal to your intellect and our will and sense of who we are s hopefully motivate us to act. >> so you -- but you are a master preacher, why are you going to a class on preaching. >> well, i think you never arrive. you never feel like wow, i have it all. so since i can remember i had to go to a class on preaching every year, somewhere, or a conference every year in my ministry, and look for the great preachers around the country, and i've heard some great ones. i think i could preach until i hear these folks, men and women. they are dynamic. i am inspired, challenged stretched i want the grow. i am 64 this month i have been 37 years in ministry, and so i still feel i am learning. i want to be that learner. >> what is a sermon supposed to

do? if you go in, what are you looking for? what makes it good or bad? what is the whole purpose of it? >> paul said faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god so i think hopefully people have ears to hear jesus often said you have ears to hear but you can't hear and eyes to see but you don't see. hopefully it opens up the ears and eyes and heart that we see. preaching, if it can do that, transforms people's lives through hearing and seeing and then actually being able to put it into action is where preaching i think its value comes. you can't always determine that. john wesley says, preaching is cumulative. you don't know what drop in the cup will over flow someone's heart but you keep on preaching. >> another good reason to go to church. a drop a week. >> right. >> okay okay okay. >> but it is important, it takes two to see the truth.

one to speak it one to hear it. with out the hearer. you can speak all you want. being able to be critical thinkers and yet living the faith, faith delivers as someone said. and that takes the part of the people who are hearing. you know, preacher as you know, we are only part of it. do all the preparation and it is flat for some people because it is not receptive to it. >> and the -- to add on to that, i think there is an importance in knowing the biblical stories and preaching does that, i think it is best it teaches the story and if you learn the stories, which are i think allegorical in many respects, particularly old testament, if you have those stories you can come back to them and say oh, this is what that is about. if you take the earliest, cane and able. what is that about.

okay well, or adam and eve, what is adam's and a lot of times spent -- well, with adam a real person and eve a real person was there 7 day's creation. this stuff that you read is well, adam's sin may have been wanting to please his wife but turning away from god. you take away from the story the human being has a will that goes over this way that is not always the best way for living and if you know these stories you can always get back to them. >> that's true. >> what i worry about is the loss of biblical knowledge, it is that shared base, ethical moral base. we can argue and disagree and reflect on which stories are important but if we lose generations of people who know those stories that bond is going to be different so i guess that is my sermon for the program there. >> recently we were saying in the song i love to tell the

story. and by the time we got through everyone was tired i said you are tired already telling the story. we all laughed. but i agree with you. the song, the stories really compels people. it is just jesus never quoted scripture as much he told stories, parables,ant dotes, images and those references. >> well, i think that as we talk about worship, worship is -- it is about song, in many cases it is about color and light and a ritual where you go in and you know this prayer and that prayer and as a pastor -- we are aware for those that go to church we each have favorite hymns and people say to me why don't we sing the old hymns we grew up with. we didn't grow up with the same

hymns all the timement worship attaches all the senses. thank you for letting the preacher talk about our own craft there. when we come back we will wrap up with ron swisher. stay with us mmmm. you don't love me anymore do you billy? what? i didn't buy this cereal to sweet talk your taste buds it's for my heart health. so i can't have any? if you can deprive me of what can help lower my cholesterol... and live with yourself. right. mmm, i worry about your mother. cry herself to sleep every night over my arteries, but have yourself a bowl. good speech dad. [ whimper ] [ male announcer ] honey nut cheerios tastes great and its whole grain oats can help lower cholesterol. bee happy. bee healthy. ♪ ♪

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swisher at break quoted karen armstrong, simply wonderful sentence if he can recall it again. >> religion is at its best when it asks questions and at its worst when it tries to answer them. i think you also mentioned saint augustine during the break he had a lot of questions. >> i think, as we talked, church over the past two or three years for those who attend, i have seen a shift and i talked with you and other pastors, two or three years ago people were coming together and there was a lot of energy before the great bubble of the derivatives crash and all of that. they would send out sparks like sparklers and the church was a place to generate energy, social justice, care groups whatever but as the tensions of the economics have worsened and lengthened i see the role of churches, people come for care and comfort to support there are a lot of scary things and

people being impacted particularly small business people, living on the edge, it is dangerous and so the role of the church as comfortable, lead us into a care of the soul. the nature of the soul which we didn't talk about, this spring and early summer i did studies in buddhism and hinduism and leading up to and so the congregation in the small group was saying when are we going to talk about the nature of the soul and christianity and i said well, azione as i learn about it. it is a -- as soon as i learn about it. it is a little more complicated. augustine was one of the great thinkers and reconnects with armstrong saying his favorite poem was the inid in that great greek poem, he is sailing the ocean but the sea shore always recedes from him he never quite gets there. augustine said faith is asking of questionso that always kept

a dynamic so he wasn't having to value dade something he believed or understood from perspective last year that he was free to keep exploring and looking for what is important in the faith where i am right now. >> such a prolific thinker. >> yeah. >> 500 books he wrote along with their confessions and city of god and all of this. amazing writer. >> 2,000 years of history it takes a lifetime plus in my case to learn about it. >> right. >> so i was reading a guy named origin. his background, 200 so he was thinking that well, you know the soul takes a lot of learning, it turned away from god like adam turned away in the garden of eden and he said some times maybe it doesn't learn enough in one lifetime and wait a minute so he said he is talking about trance migration so same thing, exploring ideas, and so -- but

the soul and they said there is no health. that is dante 16th century invention because eventually everyone will want to return to the right place which is the love of god. you will not be punished but i read the buddhist -- you don't move from a one body to another body you have to under go a certain thing in the middle which is several levels of hell. regardless of faith -- >> the hindu i believe it takes about a thousand. >> a thousand lifetimes. >> reincarnation. >> all the more better for being christian you might not want to go through this again. in closing, on a new church for you what are you looking to? what are you excited about? >> i think building as you said earlier community and seeing where they are in terms of their needdesires, of course we all want youth and young adults, we will see if that is possible there is a few there, dynamic youth but i'm sure they

want to build on that, i think they have a social conscience, and commitments to issues that concern our world whether it is in haiti, with that earthquake or aids in africa, some support of an awareness of that that they have. so if i can build on that, and i think numbers are important yet i think what is more important is commitment, a commitment to the faith, commitment to the christ, to our spiritual growth and development, but also hopefully, that takes care of itself in terms of numbers, but we are declining as most churches are >> >> i am hugh bower rows, conversation with reverend ron

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