captioning sponsored by cbs "face the nation" with cbs news chief washington correspondent bob schieffer. and now, from cbs news in washington, bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning again. governor christie is in the studio with us this morning. governor, thank you for being here. but before we get to this big news of home, we want to go to libya where moammar qaddafi continues to cling to power. yesterday, the president called on qaddafi to step down. the united nations imposed a new set of stiff sanctions, and the death toll there now stands at over 1,000. in addition, a u.n. refugee agency says as many as 100,000 people have fled the country.

kelly cobiella has a report from the capital city of tripoli. alan pizzey is on the western border in tunisia. first to kelly. >> bob, it's the start of the workweek here in tripoli. instead of flocking to jobs people are going to banks. they've been getting messages from the government saying there's a $400 gift waiting for them. they've been very quick and very happy to collect. the government says this is part of their effort to show that they're listening to their people and answering some of their demands. they also say that they're giving some raises to state employees. now, we've seen a very heavy police and security presence throughout tripoli every time we pulled out our camera to film. within seconds, there was a police car next to us, a car with soldiers next to us, all asking us if we had permission. we also saw men in plain clothes working alongside some of these police and soldiers and carrying automatic weapons. it's not clear if they're civilians or just police officers in plainclothes, at this point. qaddafi did make a promise or a threat, as you may see it, on friday night that he would begin

to arm civilian supporters. we hear that that actual did happen yesterday. some residents in some of the neighborhoods have said that these armed civilian militias are going through the streets, patrolling the streets keeping order. most of tripoli is under qaddafi's control. we've heard sporadic gunfire at night, but nothing sustained and seen no sign of widespread violence or clashes. >> schieffer: kelly, is there any sign that the opposition to qaddafi is backing off? >> there is no sign at all that the opposition is backing off. and no sign that there they are marching on the city, either. we've heard many reports from outside of the city that something to that effect would happen, that these enemies of qaddafi were closing in. aside from a couple of neighborhoods within this city where people are openly defiant of qaddafi, we've seen really no sign of the opposition making

inroads into tripoli. >> schieffer: kelly, thank you so much. cbs news correspondent alan pizzey is on the western border with tunisia. alan, what's the latest there? >> bob, the refugees continue to stream across here. most of them are egyptians. the u.n. high commissioner for refugees says at least 50,000 people have come into tunisia since the trouble broke out in libya about eight days ago. nearly 45,000 of them came across this particular border crossing. many of them are egyptians. they tell you stories of being robbed. others one say they have no trouble. they have no idea who is at the check points. one guy said "everybody has got a uniform. everybody has a gun. i don't know who they are. i'm just glad to be out." the problem here is that the tunisians want them to keep moving. they don't want to get a refugee camp built up here. but there are so many coming, the pipeline is beginning to jam up. yesterday, there was a lot of almost violence here at the

border as these people got across, you know, tired, scared, desperate to keep moving on. that's calmed down now. but the problem is that they're stuck in tunisia. the egyptians aren't able to get them out. there is a refuse refugee crisis building here, bob. >> schieffer: thank you so much, alan. senators john mccain and joe lieberman, who are in the region, called today for the united states to arm the rebels in that fight going on in tripoli. now to the protests. back home, protests of a very different kind. these are peaceful protests in madison, wisconsin, by union members. that demonstration is moving into its 13th day. yesterday's turnout of 70,000 was the largest yet. yesterday, union workers across the country turned out to support them. these demonstrations over the wisconsin governor's plan to reduce spending by ending the collective bargaining rights of teachers and many other public service employees. governor christie, you took on the public service unions in new jersey.

but you didn't talk about ending collective bargaining rights. do you think governor walker out there in wisconsin has gone too far? >> let me tell you what went on in new jersey. my predecessor, governor corzine, stood on the front steps of the capital at a public sector union rally and said, "i'll fight to get you a good contract." i thought to myself last night, who is he fighting with? once he says that the fight is over. what i believe in is true adversarial collective bargaining. every state is different. i'm not going to micromanage wisconsin from trenton, new jersey. i know scott walker. i like him. i trust him. i think he's doing what's in the best interest of wisconsin the same way i'll do what's best for new jersey, which is to reform the pension system and roll back health benefits to put them more in line with the rest of the population in new jersey, to put us on a long-term path to fiscal stability. >> schieffer: what about this idea? do they have a right to collective bargaining? >> listen, all these rights are legislatively created. they didn't come down from

tablets at the top of a mountain. so political things change and go back and forth. every state is going to make their own determination on that. wisconsin is in the middle of making that determination. as you know, bob, there are plenty of states in america where that right doesn't exist. so, each state has to make their own determination on that. >> schieffer: is that good or bad for new jersey? do you think they ought to have the right in new jersey for collective bargaining. >> what i've said in new jersey is as long as it's fair and reasonable collective bargaining. we can't have what we've had before. state workers in new jersey, this past year, they were working under a contract from my predecessor, john corzine, 7% salary increases in a 0%- inflation world. i don't think the people who are paying the bills think that's the result of fair adversarial collective bargaining. they want someone in the room representing the taxpayers. that's what i'll be this june when that contract expires. >> schieffer: do you see a danger here that this is turning into some kind of-- maybe not a danger, maybe it's something you would encourage-- turning into some kind of national political war where you have democrats and the unions on one side and

republicans on the other? >> i don't think it is. i think, again, there are so many states that don't have collective bargaining. a lot of states are not having this conflict right now. so i think this is really a state-by-state issue. there's a lot of interest in this right now because of the emotion that's going on in wisconsin. a strong stand by governor walker; a strong standby the people on the other side. it will be resolved politically in the state legislature in wisconsin. i don't see it that way. obviously, it has national interest in the story, bob, but we've been taking on the unions in new jersey for the last year. that's gotten a lot of attention, too. everybody is doing it their own way. >> schieffer: let me ask you this. you really came on hard against the teachers' union. i think everybody in this country on all sides of all this thinks we need education reform. that we've got to do something to make our educational system better. do you worry that the stance you have taken has somehow demonized teachers, and will raise questions in young people's minds as to whether they want to go into the profession? >> no, i don't.

in fact, i think quite the opposite. listen, i think that the teachers in new jersey-- and there's thousands and thousands of great ones-- deserve a union as good as they are. they don't have it. and i disagree with the premise of your question which is that everybody agrees there should be education reform. everybody but the teachers union who believes that everything is fine. if you listen to them in new jersey, they'll tell you everything is fine. it's great. it's great except for the 104,000 kids in new jersey that are stuck in 200 chronicling... chronically failing schools. just because their zip code is in a poor urban center doesn't mean we should be fighting to change the system that's failing them. no, what i'm trying to do is have a merit-based system for teachers, so that great ones get rewarded and paid more and the really great ones want to stay in the profession not only because they love it but because they're rewarded financially for it. the union protect the worse of the worst. they make it impossible to fire bad teachers. it's ruining our education system. >> schieffer: what do you think of president obama's plans to

reform education at the federal level? his let's reward good teachers, his, you know, the things that secretary duncan has outlined. are you generally think he's on the right track? >> i do. and i've said that publicly. i think the president has shown real courage, especially for a democrat who has been dependent upon the teachers union nationally for political support to come out for merit pay and race to the top, and some of the things he's done to push reform. i think the president has been on the right track. i'm concerned about comments i heard yesterday from secretary duncan that seemed to be blowing the horn of retreat on that a little bit. i hope that's not an election year ploy to cozy back up to the unions as the president prepares for re-election. in general, i think the president has been very strong on this. that's why you see republicans agreeing with him on it. >> schieffer: you have a reputation as a straight talker, i think. do you believe that the budgetary problems across this country can be resolved without raising taxes? >> let's take new jersey, for instance, bob. we raised taxes and fees 115 times in the last eight years. and we still have one of the

worst budget problems in america. and so i think unless you deal with the underlying structural expense problems-- and we've been dealing with them in new jersey-- there's no amount of taxation will keep up with the amount of spending increase that we have. so my view is we've already done things on the tax side in new jersey. we have one of the highest top marginal income tax rights, one of the highest sales tax rates, and one of the highest corporate business tax rates. now we need to cut back the size and scope of government and have those two things meet. this year in my budget, while we still reduce spending, i added $250 million to k-12 education. we're going to do things that make sense, but we're not going to continue the spending spree. we're not going back to raising more and more taxes. the people in new jersey have had enough of that. 115 times in eight years. i think they've given at the office, bob. >> schieffer: you know, there are some groups, anti-tax groups, that ask people especially people who are running for the republican nomination for president, to take a pledge not to raise taxes.

i know you're not running. i know what you've said about running. but would you do that? would you ever take a pledge not to raise taxes? >> if i were running, i guess i'd have to make that decision. but at the end of the day, i think what matters much more is what you do and not anything that you sign or that you say. you have to prove and do it. i think the reason why people in new jersey are responding to what we're doing is i'm actually doing the job what i said i would do. i said if there were income tax increases, i would veto them. i did. my veto was sustained. i said i would cut spending. we cut spending two years in a row-- not projected spending, real spending. we're taking on the things that they're not taking on at the federal level-- pension benefits and health care. we're doing those two things to cut back the cost of that. >> schieffer: one of the things that you have spoken out on is something that a lot of people in politics have not. here's what you said at the american enterprise institute this week in washington. >> you're going to have to raise the retirement age for social security. i just said it, and i'm still standing here.

i did not vaporize into the carpeting. and i said it. >> schieffer: all right. you said it. >> i did. >> schieffer: should other people be saying that? >> of course. i mean, listen, you know and i know that the overall majority has a problem on the federal level comes down to three programs: social security, medicare and medicaid. unless we go about tackling those three issues, all the rest of the things that the president is talking about and others on capitol hill are talking about are minor league issues. not saying they're not important; not saying they're not, you know, interesting. and i might like some of them. if you don't deal with those three, those three are going to eat up everything else. we have to start dealing with it. i think the people of the united states are ready for a frank, adult conversation about it. i've seen that in new jersey. i've done a lot of things that people say i don't like, but i'm glad you're taking it on because you have to, because we know we're in trouble. so my view on it and the reason i came down and gave that speech was to say to people stop being afraid and stop tell... selling

the people of america short. they're smart. they know we have to do this. >> schieffer: all right. governor, let's take a break here. we'll come back and talk about this and some other things including the government shutdown that may be coming in this country, in washington. back in a minute.

>> schieffer: and we're back now with governor christie. governor, congress is back this week and the first thing they've got to tackle is some sort of emergency stopgap legislation to keep the government from shutting down. but i know there are a lot of people in your party, especially

on the tea party side, who say maybe just let the government shut down. let's do not compromise on spending. do you think it would be a good idea to shut the government down? >> i don't, unless that's the only way to forward your principles. i think they're going to be able to find a way to find compromise to protect the principles that, you know, the folks in my party got elected on and the ones that are important to democrats. i mean their job is to solve these problems, not just to stand in a corner and hold your breath. i say that about both sides. so, let's get together. they've got a week to figure it out. let's get in the room and figure it out. i was a little surprised they took the last week off, to tell you the truth, given this was looming. most americans wanted to know why they didn't go to work. let's get it solved. >> schieffer: what do you say to the tea party folks who say, "look, it's our way or no way. we have simply got to stop this, and if it takes shutting down the government, shut it down." >> well, those are two different things. i think that you can accomplish the goals of downsizing government, of cutting spending, and you can do it in a way that i think democrats will go along with you on. i mean, you have to have some fights. that's fine. as you know, i'm not averse to a

fight. but i think also you just have to get in a room and start working it out with people. that's what we've done in new jersey, bob. i have a democratic legislature. the things that i've accomplished with cutting spending and putting a cap on property taxes, cap on interest arbitration awards, reforming initially for new employees pension and benefits-- i've done that with a democratic legislature. it means i don't get every ounce of what i want, but we get in a room and we work it out. that's what they should do down here. the president should lead on that. >> schieffer: once they get this stopgap measure to keep the government running, they have to take a vote on whether to raise the debt ceiling. what's your view on that? >> my view on it is that it better be in line also with some real long-term commitments to cutting spending. you've got to do both. i think it's a good moment to force that conversation. they should. i just believe that if the president shows leadership on this, he can bring the parties together. that's what a president is for.

>> schieffer: let's talk about... president obama. what do you think of the job he's doing? >> there are some things i like and some things i don't like. the spending has been out of control, and not as advertised when he ran for president. and that's very disappointing to me. i'm not a fan of the health care reform. i think it's unnecessarily hamstrung states. i doubt that it's constitutional. on the other side, as i said before, i like what he's done on education reform. i think it's a nixon-to-china kind of moment. we need a democratic president to make these reforms in education to lead the way. i like some of the things he's had to say in renewable energy, because i think we need to find a path to lower our dependence on foreign oil. and we can see what's going on in the middle east this week. it can turn things upside-down for us. i like some of the things he's been doing on that as well. overall, i didn't vote for him. and i doubt i'll vote for him next time. >> schieffer: a lot of republicans are giving hints, indications and so forth that they may or may not seek the republican nomination to run against barack obama.

you have said in one of the... one of your memorable quotes, "i'd have to commit suicide to convince people i'm not running." well, you may or may not walk back from the ledge on that. but you haven't been all that kind, i guess is what i would say, to some of the people that do seem to be suggesting they're going to run. what do you like about the field so far, and what don't you like? >> we don't have a field yet. first of all, no one has declared. what i've said is let's judge the complete field once they all get in. lots of people can flirt with it, bob. you know it's an enormous decision to make the decision to run for president of the united states. enormous personal commitment. when the team that we're going to field gets in there, then i'll make my evaluation of them. i don't think i've said anything uncharitable about any of them. i've said very nice things about governor daniels, because i really believe that governor daniels is speaking about the issues that need to be spoken about and has a track record in indiana that proves he can actually do it. that doesn't mean i'd endorse him if he ran.

other people who are considering running should be looking at and talking about, having an honest conversation with the american people. >> schieffer: what you have said is they've got to get out here and talk about these things that are going to be the issues, that you can't finesse it. >> you can't finesse it. you have to have unscripted moments. you cannot be blow-dried and, you know, poll-tested and come out here. that's not what the american people want. they want somebody who is going to speak straight to them. they want to ask you questions. they want unguarded moments. that's when they can really judge your character. >> schieffer: is that aimed at, say, sarah palin, who seems to talk to people mostly on her web site and not... and she doesn't do many interviews? >> i think it's aimed at all of them. certainly, when i first made that comment, it was in response to a question about governor palin. i think if she wants to prove that she's ready for this, you have to have some unscripted moments. she may very well be up to it. if she is, good for her. but i think people want to see that. they're very much interested in her. they want to see that about her to make a judgment as to can you trust somebody in the oval

office who can do that? unless you do those unscripted moments, i think it's hard to get the person to pull the lever for you. >> schieffer: do you think she's ready? >> she's got to make that judgment herself. bob, i'll make my vote in the voting booth privately like every other american. >> schieffer: all right. let me ask you this. some of the people on the right have sort of poked fun and made fun of michelle obama, because she's been trying to get people to eat better. i know that you have done dieting. you have worked on your weight and so forth. you described yourself as "portly." do you think... what do you think about this criticism coming from the right of michelle obama because she's trying to get people to eat better. >> i think it's unnecessary. it's a really good goal to encourage kids to eat better. i've struggled with my weight for 30 years. and it's a struggle. if a kid can avoid that in his adult years or her adult years, more power to them. i think the first lady is speaking out well. i don't want the government deciding what you can and what

you can't eat. i still think that's your choice. but i think mrs. obama being out there encouraging people in a positive way to eat well and to exercise and to be healthy, i don't have a problem with that. >> schieffer: governor christie, thank you so much. i hope you'll come back to see us. enjoyed having you. >> i certainly will. thank you, bob. >> schieffer: we'll be back with some final thoughts in just a moment.

>> schieffer: and finally today, well, we are two months into the new year. i hear congress and the white house are finally-- finally-- getting close to an agreement on spending that will keep the government running for another two weeks or so. which means that, in two weeks, they can have the same argument again. or i guess they can. frankly, i tuned out and went to houston to see something more interesting last week than the

washington back and forth. people in houston were raising money for the texas children's hospital, which leads the fight against children's cancer. they don't mess around in houston. they put on a dinner and raise just over $4.5 million. one dinner, one night-- $4.5 million. and there was even more. a man named lester smith and his wife sue said they would match whatever the dinner brought in, so he wrote a check for another $4.5 million, which brought the take for one night to $9.1 million to fight children's cancer. even better was the afternoon i spent at the cancer hospital where dr. dryer gave me some even more astounding numbers. she told me in 1965, the survival rate for children with leukemia, the leading cancer among children, was just 5%. today, it is 85% that survive. now, that makes you proud.

but when she told me why it is so important to keep private contributions flowing into cancer research-- that is, because government funding continues to shrink, especially for children's cancer-- yes, i said especially for children's cancer-- i didn't find much to be proud of there. but it did remind me it was time to get back to washington, where the priorities may get out of whack but the argument never ends. back in a minute.

>> schieffer: that's it for today. thank you for watching "face the nation." stay up to the second on all the news by tuning in to cbsnews.com on your computer. we'll see you next week. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ,,,,

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