>> schieffer: today on "face the nation," libya is in chaos. qaddafi is digging in and here at home the battle over the budget and government spending rages on. as the crisis in libya escalates, the question is, should the united states get more involved? and if so, how? that's what we'll ask the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, democrat john kerry. we'll also ask senate republican leader mitch mcconnell about that, and about the impasse over government spending and reforming social security. we'll bring in "new york times" columnist tom friedman for analysis. and i'll have a final thought on the supreme court ruling that gave a church group the right to picket a combat soldier's funeral. it's all ahead on "face the

nation." captioning sponsored by cbs "face the nation" with cbs news chief washington correspondent bob schieffer. and now, from cbs news in washington, bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning again. we begin today with senator kerry. thank you for joining us, senator. but before we talk, here's the latest from libya. there is heavy fighting along the libyan coast. qaddafi's forces retook the town as libyan planes launched air strikes against rebels on the ground. although the rebels captured the key oil port city of ras lanuf yesterday, they are under heavy attack there today as well as in the cities of zawiyah, cities both outside tripoli, the capital. for more, let's go to mark phillips, who is in tripoli this morning. mark, what's the latest?

>> well, bob, the situation here can best be described as murky this morning. both sides are effectively claiming victory. at least the government side is proclaiming a kind of victory, saying that it has recaptured several of the towns which the rebel forces have taken over the past week. and the streets here in tripoli were full this morning of people celebrating and firing guns in celebration in the air. but the situation on the ground appears to be unsettled-- one way of describing it. >> schieffer: where do you see this ending? are we at kind of a stalemate here? >> i think we are in a kind of stalrmate. i think neither of the forces, either the government or the rebels, have either the will or the organization to completely knock the others out. >> schieffer: mark phillips reporting from tripoli. one other note. in an interview with a french newspaper today, moammar qaddafi is calling for a u.n. commission to investigate the unrest in libya. he pledges his government's full cooperation. senator kerry, i trust you'll

want to see some evidence of that before you take that to the bank. >> more than that. moammar qaddafi has lost all legitimacy. the only thing he's fighting for is his and his family's ability to continue to rule. there's no principle. there's no governance principle. there's no democracy. there's no reform. there's nothing else on the table. and the only way that he can stay is by violently taking on the people of his country. that will not be sustained. so i believe that he's cornered. but he obviously remains lethal. yes, there's something of a stand-off. that's the way it could be for some period of time, but i think that too will change. there are a lot of tools still at the disposal of the international community. the opposition is really only collecting itself, beginning to shape, define itself in terms of

who is playing what role, organize itself. so i believe that, yes, we'll probably see days of movement back and forth a little bit. but i think we need to do several things. one, prepare a no-fly zone in conjunction with our allies. not implement it. certainly, first hope would be if it were called on to be done only in the... in the context of international agreement, sanctions. but right now, they don't want that. i think that's good. the last thing we want to think about is any kind of military intervention. and i don't consider the fly zone stepping over that line. we don't want troops on the ground. they don't want troops on the ground. that would be counterproductive. i think there are a number of things we can do in between that. >> schieffer: let's just talk about this whole idea of fly zone, because the secretary of defense, mr. gates, is a little dubious about that. he says basically that's going to war, because he says if you're going to have a fly zone,

you've got to go in there and bomb their anti-aircraft installations there. that you're going to be bombing the country. >> that's actually not the only option for what one could do. one could crater the airports and the runways and leave them incapable of using them for a period of time. i don't think this will be a look-term kind of thing, frankly. that's just my judgment. but i think that if you were to have one, it's not going to be like iraq or bosnia for the long term. that's number one. number two... >> schieffer: i think, senator, what always concerns people, people always say that when we start to get into these things. they say this won't be for the long term. they said that about world war i. >> i said i'm making that judgment about a no fly zone. it's not a very big air force. we're not talking about this gargantuan kind of force that we face. but more importantly, i would only consider its implementation if qaddafi himself were using it as a means of terror, as a means

of massacring large numbers of civilians. i think it is only then that the global community would begin to say, "uh-oh, we've got to do something." >> schieffer: we have to do that under a u.n. sponsorship. >> it is preferable. you don't have to do it under that but it is clearly preferable to have either u.n. or nato sanctions. but leaving that aside, there are many other things that can happen in between. i think the administration has done a terrific job of, number one, the president's statement could not have been more clear. the president has said qaddafi has to go. that's an important message to everybody in libya and around libya. secondly, we have engaged in major humanitarian lift. we have made the presence of the american military felt for that purpose. but there's always lurking in their minds the question of what else might they do? >> third, i think we have the ability in the next... they have frozen and seized over $30 billion of his assets, and made it clear that those assets will

be made available to the opposition in order to begin to develop the new libya and to do what they need to do in the days ahead. that's very significant. and i think that there are other things we can do in the days ahead to bolster the opposition. >> schieffer: what about humanitarian aid? >> we're providing that. there were four aircraft that flew in and took people to egypt, i think to tunisia. there's humanitarian assistance being provided. >> schieffer: what about military aid? >> i think that's a trickier but i assume that a lot of weapons are going to find their way there from one means or another over the course of the next weeks. >> schieffer: do you think it is in the united states of america's national interest that qaddafi has to go? we know it's in the interest of the libyan people, but is it in our national interest? >> yes, it is, because if qaddafi stays there is no question that he will be mischief in the days ahead, as he has been in the past. furthermore, i think what is happening all across the middle

east is in our strategic national interest. if we have emerging democracies, people who come out who say to al qaeda, "look, we didn't have one suicide bomber, we didn't have one violent, you know, sort of explosive act against the west or somebody to make a dramatic statement. we took matters into our own hands with respect to our own government and we have produced change." that just, you know, that's not an iranian moment. it's not an al qaeda moment. it's the people of libya attaching themselves to the very values and principles that we have espoused for so many years in that region. i think if these countries do reform, and they do give greater voice to their people and there is greater opportunity, economic opportunity, and people are enfranchised as a result, bob, that is of enormous consequence to all of us with respect to relationships in the mideast, to the war on terror as we have

known it and as it might be defined in the future. >> schieffer: we're about out of time. before we go i do want to ask you about the situation up on capitol hill. do you see the two sides getting together and finding a way to cobble together... >> i do. i hope it starts soon, because i don't believe what we have from the house is a serious economic plan. i think it's a ideological, extremist, reckless statement. if that were to be in fact put in place, it would contribute to the reversal of our recovery. it might even destroy our recovery. it will certainly deny us the competitiveness that we need to move with china, india and other countries into the future. i think it's a very dangerous plan. it cuts teachers. it cuts education. it cuts research. it cuts energy research. all the things we need to do, bob, to make america number one again and to move into the global marketplace, their budget sets us back.

it's inconvertravertible that it hurts g.d.p.. it sets back g.d.p.. we will lose 700,000, 200,000, 500,000 jobs, whatever we lose. 200 to 700, it moves against the recovery that we've worked so hard to achieve. i think it is not... it's not a real discussion of america's needs. we need to be doing social security, medicare, medicaid. we need to have defense spending on the table. we need a comprehensive approach. but we cannot eat america's seed corn in terms of our competitive capacity for the future. >> schieffer: senator kerry, thank you so much. we'll get a little different take i suspect on that question. >> no doubt. >> schieffer: because now we'll go to the republican leader in the senate, mitch mcconnell, down in his hometown of louisville today. senator, i did want to ask you about what senator kerry just talked about, but first you have to ask you about libya and this whole idea of maybe setting up a no fly zone in libya. what is your take on that? >> well, i think it's worth considering. the other option that john kerry alluded to in passing that i

think we used frequently during the cold war period is simply aiding and arming the insurgents. we're not quite sure who these insurgents are. there was one report that a group of insurgents arrested british soldiers. i think we need to make sure who we're dealing with here. with qaddafi going, everybody in the united states and ultimately everybody in libya will conclude that's the best outcome. >> schieffer: do you believe, then, it is in our vital national interest for him to go? >> i'm not sure if it's in our vital interest for him to go. but i think we certainly ought to look for ways to be helpful to those who are seeking to overthrow dictators-- certainly short of sending in our own military personnel. >> schieffer: let me just ask you, and i'll just ask you to respond to what senator kerry just said. he said that this budget battle that's going on up on the hill up there, that the house bill

that is passed, $61 billion in cuts, i called it dangerous. >> i think i heard him call it "reckless." what's reckless, bob, is the $1.6 trillion deficit we're running this year. what's reckless is the $3 trillion we've added to our national debt. our national debt is now the size of our economy. we begin to look a lot like greece. and this doesn't even deal with our long-term unfunded liabilities in medicare, social security, medicaid. add up to over $50 trillion of promises we've made to future generations that we cannot meet. look, this is the time to get serious. the administration, with regard to this year's negotiation that we're talking about, that senator kerry called reckless, has only come about one sixth of the way to where house

republicans are, and where i and the majority and hopefully all senate republicans are. look, this is a good place to start. but it's just a pebble in the ocean to what we need to do. this is the perfect time to tackle entitlement reform. we have divided government. that is, one party doesn't control the entire government. that's the time, bob, to do big things. remember when reagan and tip o'neill fixed social security. remember when clinton and a republican congress did welfare reform. this is the time to do important and difficult stuff. and i agree with "the washington post." where's the president? where is the leadership? we're prepared to do difficult things, but he must be a part of it because, well, we're not looking at making an issue here. we're looking at making a law. that requires the signature of the president of the united states. >> schieffer: all we know, of course, is about what is being said in public. we hear the back-and-forth that's being... going on in public. but you and the other leaders have been meeting behind closed doors with vice-president biden. i guess i would ask you this question.

what is your take on the administration right now? do you believe that president obama is, in fact, serious about trying to get something done here? >> no, i don't. >> schieffer: really? >> i have now had a number of private conversations with the president and the vice- president. i was hopeful that we would step up to the plate here, if you will, and use this divided government opportunity to do something big about our long- term problem. i don't have any more complaints about the conversations with them. i've had plenty of conversations with them. what i don't see now is any willingness to do anything that's difficult. look, this is the perfect time to do it. we control part of the government. they control part of the government. it could be done in a very, very effective way. for those who are concerned about the 2012 elections survived politically because both sides will have embraced it.

i haven't given up hope, but frankly, i'm not optimistic. >> schieffer: you know, that really is a pretty serious charge at this stage to say that you don't even think the president is serious. what is it that makes you say that? >> well, look, i've a number of conversations with people who count at the white house. and i think that so far i don't see the level of seriousness that we need. for example, they're in denial about social security. they are saying social security is not a problem. the congressional budget office said it's running a $50 billion deficit this very year. medicare, social security are unsustainable. medicare... medicaid is unsustainable. you step back and look at what this administration has done, they've sort of pumped up the government. bob, you would be interested to know that unemployment among government workers is half what it is among private sector workers. most of those unemployed workers are state and local workers who have been laid off. the federal government has in fact added 100,000 jobs in the

course of this administration while the american people have shed millions of jobs. our priorities are out of whack. when my friend john kerry says cutting government spending is reckless, i'm wondering, what planet is he living on? >> schieffer: all right. i asked you for a response and you certainly gave me one. senator mcconnell, it's always good to have you here. i thank you. we'll have some context and analysis on all of this from "new york times" columnist tom friedman, who is just back from the middle east. that's in 60 seconds. thank you, senator.

>> schieffer: back with tom friedman, who is just back the middle east. tom, let's just start with senator kerry talking about this idea of a no fly zone. what do you think about that? >> you have three principles clashing here right now.

one is something that was so important about the uprising in tunisia and egypt was that it was owned by the people who did it. there was no american involvement. there were no foreign troops. by the way, let's remember at least 400 and maybe 700 egyptians died in that struggle for a different kind of government. so i think, first of all, we want... you don't want to take the sense of ownership away from whoever is uprising there in libya. second, you want qaddafi to lose. he's a bad guy. he's driven a country into the ground, used his money badly. was behind pan am 103. but thirdly, we don't really know who the rebels are. i'd like to think that, you know, they're in line with the egyptian and tunisia democracies. really, we don't know who they are. and so i find in this clash of really these three principles, let's support humanitarian relief everywhere possible. but i'd be very wary about jumping into the middle of this right now. >> schieffer: the secretary of defense is certainly making sure

that the government and people on capitol hill understand what's going on. i mean, he basically says this is an act of war. >> two things. one, it would be an act of war. two, you would need u.n. approval if you wanted to do it under that legitimate cover. the russians and the chinese would be unlikely to go along with that. right now, i think we should be looking for a way to squeeze qaddafi and provide humanitarian support, but without putting boots on the ground there and taking ownership. >> schieffer: what about egypt? how does that seem to be going. >> back a couple weeks now. i think egypt's moving along in an amazing way, but they just appointed a new prime minister. the one mubarak appointed-- out the door. american educated engineer, a graduate of purdue university. the democracy movement has been very supportive of it. the army announced it on their facebook page. the egyptian army is an institution that you basically

was against the law to to write about. on their facebook page. i think there is a chance, bob, we have to be very careful and humble about predicting anything there. but we get an outcome in egypt that looks a lot like turkey of ten years ago. we have the army in the background as a guardian of the process, but we will have i think a new constitution shortly and a good chance for presidential elections there by november. >> schieffer: bill daily the white house chief of staff, said on "meet the press' this morning that one of the options now is to consider using oil from the strategic oil reserve in order to bring down the price of gasoline in this country. does that make sense to you? >> that would rank in top five worst ideas of 2011 so far. i think that there's one thing we should finally be doing is using this opportunity to have a credible energy policy that begins to reduce our addiction to oil. gasoline is almost $4 a gallon. we know that's a red line where people really start to change their behavior. at a minimum, i'd be talking about a tax that basically says we're going to keep it at $4.

if it goes below or above we won't touch it. say we won't agreement it until 2012. you signal people it will be coming. you don't change the... you don't harm the economy today, but you get people to change their behavior. bob, if we don't to that, going forward, the difference between the good day and a bad day for america is how the 86-year-old king of saudi arabia basically manages this reform problem. that's where we're putting ourselves. we're putting ourselves in the hands of probably the most frail antiquated regime in the middle east. they will be setting the gas price. >> schieffer: do you see this turmoil, this revolution that's going on across the region, do you see that getting into saudi arabia? >> i do. i'll tell you why, bob. what happened in egypt was authentic. it was based on real principles of wanting to own your own future. and it had a real narrative of sacrifice.

they lost people dying for those principles. you've never seen something that pure or coming from the ground up in that part of the world. that is going to spread. i don't know when. i don't know how. but saudi arabia will not be immune to that process. and for us to be betting everything... really two countries out there if they go south tomorrow like your life and mine and everyone else in america will be turned over, saudi arabia and greece. greece with the debt crisis and saudi arabia goes into turmoil, the world we live in will be very different. i don't want to be vulnerable to that. >> schieffer: tom friedman. always good to have you with us. i'll be back with some final thoughts in just a moment. [ manager ] you know... i've been looking at the numbers, and i think our campus is spending too much money on printing. i'd like to put you in charge of cutting costs.

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have spent most of my life defending the first amendment, and i'll continue to do so, but when the supreme court ruled last week that it gave a church group the right to picket at the dead soldier's funeral with a sign that said "god hates you" and "thank god for dead soldiers", i was appalled. the group believes our soldiers are dying because god is punishing america for tolerating gay people. that anyone would have the audacity to claim knowledge of god's reasoning is ridiculous. but here is the part i don't understand. the courts have long held that free speech can be limited in rare circumstances. we can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater if there is no fire because it would endanger public safety-- people might be trampled in the chaos. the first amendment has done just fine with that limit. but if that is so, why isn't public safety endangered when a mob hurls brutal abuse at an innocent citizen, who could be scarred with severe and lasting emotional damage? we must obey the law because we are a nation of laws.

but whatever the law, what these military families have endured is not right. and every community must now move quickly to establish buffer zones, which are legal, to keep these protestors as far as possible from military funerals. when there are those among so selfish and cruel they're willing to use one of most cherished freedoms to intrude on the grief of parents who have lost a child just to promote their cause, we must do everything legally possible to deter them. the court has ruled, but the effort to protect these families must go on. back in a moment. >> woman: good night, gluttony-- a farewell long awaited. good night, stuffy. >> ( yawning ) >> good night, outdated. >> ( click ) >> good night, old luxury and all of your wares. good night, bygones everywhere. >> ( engine revs )

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