welcome to mosaic. we are pleased to be joined by judge john of the ninth circuit court of appeals. before that, professor for many years at home school of law in berkeley. he has written a book that is of great interest particularly to those of us who are christian and catholic. university of notre dame press, a church that cannot change. welcome. good to have you back on mosaic. >> thank you. >> told again about the book. a church that can and cannot change. >> obviously, it's a pair docs that i wanted to explore. a lot of people are disturbed

by the idea that moral teaching can change and, in fact, has changed. it has always fascinated me how much change has gone on in the actual teachings of the catholic church. i have a chance at notre dame to give and explore the topic at some length. this book shows substantial change in several important areas of morals along with what cannot change. it's that combination that i think is particularly instructive. what can't change in cap it morals and what has changed. >> why is this book -- what motivated you to take these things on? >> well, i started years ago with a topic that i had read about where change had occurred. that was the rules of the

catholic church on banking and lending. at one time in the middle ages, it was a moral sin to make a profit on a loan. was amazed how that change occurred, and i traced it. and a lot of people said, well, that was just something of economics. so i thought about that. is that true? eventually i plunged into the study over the position of christians on the subject of slavery. and to my surprise, i discovered that for approximately 1800 years, christians fought that slavery was okay. there was no sense for one

person to hold another as a slave. it became something of great interest. how did change occurred -- acre in that field? so i went onto slavery with fundamental human relations running wild, not just economics. then from there i had a good of two marriage. i will go into that, if you'd like, in a minute. >> sure. a church that can and cannot change. it is about book -- it is a book about for subjects that are illustrative of how change happens. >> how change is actually happened. i don't pretend that there is any war of change. i just say, look at these subjects were very substantial change occurs, and think about it.

i don't think that something changes and means it has to change in another. , but i do think that you can't pretend that there is an on off of rules. the rules on london, the rules on property, and the other two of marriage, and the fourth is religious liberty. so when you see the, i'd say it enormous changes in all four areas, you know that change is possible. at the same time, i would like to insist there are some things i can't change. i would say that you can identify those on changing principles as at least the teaching of the lord jesus, but you must love your

neighbor as yourself, and you must love god with your whole mind and heart and soul. >> we are just talking with judge john about his new book. university of nonimpress. privilege to have him with us. stay with us. the next section we will keep going. me naturally, spending free time running through the grass, exploring streams, but times have changed. today's indoor kids spend more than seven hours

in front of electronic media. that's why national wildlife federation created the be out there movement. outdoor play improves kid's health, body, mind and spirit, and helps them stay fit, enhances creativity and could even make them better students. there's a reason they call it the great outdoors. learn more at be out there dot org. [kids shouting] be out there! >> welcome to. -- welcome back. a bay. resident for many years. one of the interesting things, he was appointed by president reagan to the court in 1986. he had a particular interest in his cap with akron. we are discussing his new book by the university of notre dame press, a church that can and cannot

change. when we went to brett, you had cited scripture, but teachings of christ on some things that cannot change. the book is for illustrative things of how things do change. you said at the break you might want to suggest the pickup with marriage and go from there. >> why don't i do that, plunge into marriage. it is an. where there is changes in process. you can see it visibly. it is in the areas, a very curious. , you might say. it's the. of how the church regards the marriages of persons who are not baptized, persons who are therefore outside the christian community, and the church has come to accept, at least in some cases, divorced for the unbaptized. now, that is quite astonishing if you take it that the general teachings is that by natural,

marriage is insoluble. but going back to a teaching of st. paul in corinthians, there has been a development of doctrine that permits the church, not only to accept that to perform for unbaptized persons whose marriages in some way interact with the marriages of questions. and i think that is a very striking development. these marriages that are dissolved by the church is the voice that should be used. they amount to thousands of divorces pronounced not by secular authority but by the church on

behalf of someone in an existing marriage within unbaptized person. that is a phenomenon of the last 80 years. it's something that came into existence with the 1918: law, and it picked up speed in the last 50 cheers. there are thousands of used divorce cases. no possible way of ending a marriage. no, this is administrative action. planning divorce for the unbaptized. >> and this is important because it illustrates in your book, if i understand your premise, that the change really isn't blueprinting. it sort of occurs.

it is just a response based on people who see current problems. sometimes the king -- sometimes the change occurs through the leadership of the church, sometimes it occurs through the membership of the church. it's not necessarily top to bottom. it could work the other way. but in the case of the development of our marriage, it has been the work of people trained in law finding a rather large. in which it is permissible, according to cap with teaching. the dissolved of an existing marriage in order to promote the spiritual welfare of someone who wants to contract a new marriage with a catholic. >> i must say that part of this

in the 2000-year old history of the catholic church and sometimes it gets twisted on me be the industry. once things have been known for so many centuries, someone has to find a way to change that. >> precedence is, in the end, not decisive. >> let's talk then about slavery. one of the four topics of your book, the church that can and cannot change. >> slavery is another type of example. i think the overwhelming fact is that this practice of holding other human beings and treating them as property, selling them as property, was perfectly acceptable to all kinds of people who thought of themselves as good christians, and the first formal and complete condemnation of it within the catholic church occurred in 1965 at the second council.

that's rather late. i think it would be fair to say that most catholics decided it was wrong maybe 100 years earlier but it was only in 1965 at the official magisterium of the church said it was wrong. so that's a good example of change ruling from the bottom to the top. >> usery. >> usually it was a case where the people in the field, the bankers, successfully lobbied and finally persuaded the theologians that their practice was a moderate interest. that could be that you needed some interest to stimulate the comments so that in a long battle that went on for i would say from 1500 to 1700, the people in the field persuaded the theologians that

what they were doing was acceptable and banking in a moderate rate of interest was okay. >> now, we touched lately on three of marriage closely very, and lending. how did you select these three? we have the religious freedom law to go. >> i suppose i went back to lending because i started with that. slavery because it was just boldly over. and then marriage i have written a separate book on that, and i had seen that this development was in the process. it has now become even more obvious that change is occurring here, that this is not a closed. , but i would say it is an active.

of change with people in the field thinking more and more about the publications that the church has power to dissolve marriages for the spiritual welfare of people who want to receive the facts. >> we are talking with john about his new book. examples of what looks to be sort of an unchangeable thing, but, in fact, he is saying change bubbles up from all sorts of ways. stay with us. we will continue our conversation when we come back. ,, ♪

>> we are back with judge john, ninth circuit court of appeals, good friend of mosaic for many years. the location is the new book by the university of notre dame is, the church that can cannot change. we will get back to the topics of the book of viewers are always interested in people as well as

the subject matter. now, from your voice i gather you came from the boston. >> it became the way of notre dame. i taught at notre dame law school for a number of years before coming to teach at berkeley. >> and that's -- many people grow up in religious traditions, and many people go into the law. from my perspective, few people maintain both the high interest in law and high interest in faith. what is it about this faith and this church that has kept you over the decades? >> well, apart from it being brought up in it, yes, i've always been attracted by the paradoxes. before i went to law school, i went so far as to take a degree in philosophy. so that runs into some of these

paradoxes. i maintain that interest over the years. >> what part of your faith speaks to you now or interests you? >> well, it's hard. i guess it's the whole ball of wax. of course, it's been quite striking to have a new pope and actually to have the specialist in san francisco, a friend a pointed to be the head of the congregation. that's the highest position then given. >> i take that as a good sign. >> exciting to know about. you have lived in berkeley for how many gears now? >> since 1967. >> and tell us a little bit about your family, if you would. >> well, i have lived there with my wife, and we have three children who are now in their 30s.

this year two of those children in their 30s are getting married. that's quite an event. i suppose that is very pivotal today for young people. >> and how do you find time? you are now a senior judge with the ninth circuit meaning you for just your workload a lot of it. >> it's a pretty good deal. i can do as much work as i want. >> when do you find time to write? >> well, there's still a lot of times. if you do the case properly, they're still a lot of time. >> do you like to write in the morning or at night? >> a particular time. anytime is good.

>> , e-books have you published? >> 14. >> and you are already at work on another one. >> i'm reflecting on experiences that i've accumulated over 20 years. >> look forward to that. how many tears out do you think? i hear or two from now customer. >> i hope the year from now. >> let's get back. thank you for sharing something of your personal life. let's get back to university at notre dame press. the church you refer it is the roman catholic church. you are looking at for issues the course, i suppose of centuries. we talked some about marriage but i think it's important that perhaps he said we'd go back and understand that backgrounding isn't scripture. >> that's right. all of these developments have some basis and discretion. it's not out of the blue. it's just that the little fragile roots in the development to

emerge the way they have. in the case of the large development now going on as marriage, it's a matter of the first letter of saint paul to the corinthians. the convent has been married and the spouses convert. instead because i don't want to do anything with the christian faith and that person leaves. what is the addition of the abandoned convent? call ken -- paul says in that case, the brother of the sister, referring to a christian, is not bound to keep the marriage. in other words, divorce was perfectly possible for the abandoned convent. that's the root of the larger development. it used to be called the privilege. it's a very special case. that principle, the marriage of the

undead ties has been given this very large expansion that it can dissolve such marriages in many different situations. >> we've been given a glimpse here and how the church as an institution basis, how it bases itself on scripture. these four examples in the book. when we come back, we will talk a little bit about the fourth one on religious liberties. stay with us.

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believe in zero. >> welcome back to mosaic. we are talking with judge john newnan about his new book, the church that can and cannot change. we have outlined that you had four

examples over the centuries of how the church has responded very at not so much change by blueprint or from high and low but kind of moving along. through this change of movement, the fourth. of your book -- >> religious freedom. that has had a long and not always happy history in the church. of course, was the first three centuries the church was a persecuted religion. certainly, jesus and his followers had no force to force people to become christians. the fourth century was established by the roman emperors. anna kirsty kit -- the key theologians came out in favor of coursing those. the church never thought that it was right to go out and, of course, everybody. that continued to be the standard position from about the end of the fourth century into the 20th century.

never officially abandoned. i think they would have abandoned at a long time ago, but this rather noxious doctorate or you could force the backend, intending to be quite a pond on the side of any discussions among christians. the american judge took the lead in saying we ought to get rid of that. he was promptly silenced by rome, but at the second council he was resurrected. he came to the council and led the american bishops who did take the lead on this. the party said it was the issue of the council. the council triumphantly established that every person had a right to religious freedom, and that was the doctrine of cap what church. it was quite a repudiation of that say 1500 years of coercive tactics. >> i think that's an exciting topic in that. your eyes sort of light up.

it reminded us more about that second vatican council and why it was so important. >> well, that was called by john the 23rd. updating of the church. he used that word. he was in favor of change. the success of politics carried on against the intricate opposition by people who couldn't see change. i think god particularly in the roman carrier thought it was just the on imagination, but they were wrong. on a topic like that, change occurred. an example of what is possible. i don't say it should happen everywhere, but once you see the possibility, then you think about what might happen. >> what has been the best part of writing this book for you? >> i think the action.

there are very fine reactions, really both in england and the united states from a number of people involved in parish work. i think someone said, every parish ought to have a copy of it. but that's too much hope, but i just know some pastors have really said that this is a refreshing breeze to know how change has happened in the church. >> certainly i will add it to my library. this is the university of notre dame press publishing a book, the church that can cannot change. as we are doing this interview, it may be more difficult to get ahold of the book, but please stay with it. judge john newnan, a good friend of mosaic. we appreciate you taking time to be here. any final console for our viewers? >> well, the book speaks for itself. >> that's good. a church that can and cannot change.

for examples in religious freedom and matrimony in history and in slavery. illustrating how our faith does change and grow. we are grateful to john newnan. we will see you again next month. thank you, sir. ,,,,