we have a decon, sandovol. he works at the cathedral. we'll'll talk about his other job in a little bit, too. welcome, both of you. i would like to start by, by saying, i'm so glad that barbara, you're wearing bright, wonderful holiday clothes. thank you! >> you're welcome. >> that changes the atmosphere in here immensely. >> how did you get to be involved in this kind of ministry? how did you do that, barbara? >> i kind of fell into it. it evolved here in the late

80s. it was at a time when i was finishing up with a master's program in mental health, as well as a little far enough from my own experience with cancer and i wanted to move into the field. it was very personal to me. i was a teacher before that. it seemed kind of a fit that i would take my teaching skills and learning skills and use them in a different field. >> now, did you have to get a special degree or use your mental health degree? >> i used that with a track connected to grief care. >> how did you get involved in this? how did you become a deacon. a lot of people don't know what they do. they're the third order of

ministry in the roman catholic church. my inspiration was about ministering to the community and being a bridge back to the church. my background is eclectic. my grandmother was a deaf midwife. some worked with birthing children and others helped hospice, like rebirthing people across the way. and in the course of my life -- >> so, explain that more. so, a midwife would be someone that brings a child in the world. >> a death midwife. oh, i see. >> it's helping people through the life/death transition experience. she would work with the local perish priest. she cleaned, fed, prayed with

people actively dying. she would take her oldest grandson, this man here alongside. it was my first impression of doing this kind of work. >> how old were you? >> i was about 6. >> very impactful at that age. >> yes, very much some >> later on, i was active with aids. i worked with shawntie projects. i was a eucharist minister here in the city. of course, i was called to hospital ministry. i eventually became a chaplain. i feel like i've been called to do this kind of work. it's been remarkable. barbara has been a mentor for me and others. really, it struck at us and provided a container for consolation ministry.

i'm inspired to work with her side by side for the grief support group. >> and you look so good together. bright red and nice black. wonderful. >> that's an interesting background for both of you. i'm just, i guess i'm not surprised, but, i, well, i'm impressed by the fact that it's so personal. it's not something you say, i want to be this. it's a personal connection. >> yes. >> so, we're, we're here talking with barbara and deacon sanduval. y is a special day. today, we gather as a nation and as an international community

to recognize the selfless decision of one of the most influential women of our time. she's been recognized by religious figures, and politicians around the world. to us, she's just rachael, but to the rest of the world she's the woman who, after having one too many drinks, chose not to drive home buzzed. here today to honor rachael is the family whose lives she spared.

i'm thinking, of course of a death of a loved one, of course. some other kind of loss. >> i'm not sure that the word important is something i would use, but the reason that it comes up for many people is as you say, for one of two reasons.

either they're pushing it off and their bodice can't stand pushing it off any more, they'll search out something, like a grief group. what happens then, is that, people search it out because of the fact that they want to understand it. it's one of two somethings that go on. >> is it normal for people to get angry? >> yes. >> what do they go through in the process? >> usually, people deal with four feelings. understanding a process or what happens in grief normalizes thing. anger is something that people feel. and some don't have a lot of anger. it depends on the situation and their personality. >> and i could imagine, if it's someone that's quite elderly, anger may not be a part of it. if someone dies unexpectedly,

that could be extremely traumatic for people. >> yes, we have a little bit of guilt. often times, we're there with the person and we may go to the next room for water and when we come back, they've chosen that moment and we think, we weren't there. we've been so present and we weren't there. >> you say, they've chosen that moment to die. most think that death happens to them. why are you saying that? >> i really do feel that, well, and i've listened to people say, they've been right there and another person will say, i was right there and i was not there. they use the word chosen, too. my mom chose to die at this point. yes, it's been predetermined when our time of death will be. i think that people that are

dying, they actually have an interior say. it has a lot to do with their personalities, probably. a lot of people die in early morning. interestingly enough, when people aren't around. >> is that part of your experience, too? >> yes, and i also think that underneath the core emotions, there's the reality that there's suffering -- from pain and suffering. when you separate -- when you're separated from what appears to be permanently and the emotional bruise on the soul, it's difficult. it's traumatic. it's hard for people to cope, they manifest the emotional language of anger and denial and all of these emotional

expressions. the bottom line is, it's painful to be separated. i resonate with what barbara's saying. >> in terms of choosing the time? >> i think that the time that people choose to let go is critical in times of the interior life. some would prefer to do that in private. de-- depending on the personality of the person. also, i think it's a moment of preparation that many of us think about over the life span. >> and a lot of us don't want to think about it. i think there's a lot of pushing away of the idea of death. i remember when i was young, i thought i was immortal. >> but may i say something about that? i think that the mainstream

cultures push back. some of the group, i would say, in my own latino community, there's something we call remote preparation. i'm recalling that my grandmother had her dress and her clothes selected for her funeral many years before the actual event. >> that's amazing. >> i run into the clients that come from the groups where they've integrated the idea of transition. >> we'll talk more about that. we'll take a short break. we'll be right back.

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welcome back, we're heroon mosaic with -- we're here with mosaic with barbara and deacon sandovul. we're talking about grief. grief and mourning and kind of remembering, and depression, they're perhaps more common during -- common during the holidays. is that true? >> yes, there are so many memories connected to the holidays. for so many, they're filled with wonderful events around the holidays and even to the point of food they had together. holidays have so many memories. . once you pull those things out of the closet and putting them up, each holds their own

memory. for some, they weren't happy. the thought still holds the fact this person has gone and died and holidays are hard for them. we have one or two things going on, either way, it affects people's emotions. >> and deacon, do you find that to be true? >> yes, i refer people to san francisco's suicide prevention. some suffer. they get about 60,000 calls a year. >> just in san francisco? >> yes alone. and a good amount of them happen during the holidays because the pain of the separation is so great. the coping isn't present and the substance of support groups haven't been made viable -- available. >> how does a support group work? >> one of the things that a support group does.

it's critical. it breaks the solitude of it's only happening to me. >> and in a parrish, you may have a support group and people who have suffered loss in the parrish and the area. >> and the most of the members in the groups are catholic, but others come, too. >> we even have a knewly train -- newly trained jewish leader. it works just fine. >> that's great. how would people connect with a group if they needed something? >> the group is on the website of the archdiocese under grief care. >> okay. so you just keep clicking down

to grief ministry? >> yes, and all of the services that are there are offered. during the holidays, well, the workshops are over. we had a lot of people attending. we always do. people find a sense that they can talk about, for instance, what they'll do this holiday. you know, that's going to make it different. when everyone's hurting so much and the things they want to keep and the things that are too difficult. they have a place to talk about it. sometimes, the very people you should be talking about it, nay're all suffering so much that it's hard to talk to them. be in a grief support group and say, okay, this is how this person's going to do it this year. and someone may say, well, i'll tell my family how they'll have -- well, this family has this

going on. they'll change it a little bit this year. >> as a parent or four daughters, one of my fears and my terrors is if i lose one of them. i know people who have lost children. i can't imagine if -- the pain of that and how to get through something like christmas. do people come to the groups that have that kind of trouble? >> yes, the answer is yes to that. one of the things for people in your place who have a fear of a loss, i'm often asked this question, how much will i suffer. that's interesting. this is an observation. people suffer in direct proportion to the love they have to the person, the connection to the person. that's insurmountable to us.

>> the more you love, the more you suffer? >> that's the depth of it. >> i kind of think that's why a lot of people are afraid to love, they're afraid of the separation at the end. that's another issue. >> but the reality is, we're taught that if you're going to have love, you have to let go. they work hand in hand. >> you can't escape the other. >> and you want love. it's important. i think that culturally, in our society, we don't get that. we think of the good part of love. >> connected with the love, there's hope. the hope is embedded in the fact that love doesn't die. that's a critical message in the church tradition. god is love and love really does live, for ever. >> that is important. when we come back after the short break, i would like to go

in more about the christian faith dimension of grieving and our sense of immortality and kind of how that imfacts what you -- impacts what that does in the ministry.

welcome back, we're talking with barbara and deacon sanduval about grief and consolation ministry. that's very, very important for

our parrishs and for the people in them this afternoon i want -- in them. i wanted to ask, what's the faith dimension of this. i mean, people go through a lot of emotional kinds of things. i'm presuming that faith helps some and others, it doesn't? i think that it does. >> there's an aspect of spiritual care that should be attached to physical air. for many years, we talked about the holistic model. the commonality is the human person. the human person has all of the names. they need to know, is there a god, is this a loving god. is there a destination once my loved one left me. will i be reunited with my loved one. these are questions that several people have.

these are questions embedded in the spirit of who they are. they'll process the issues with me, in my role as a deacon at the cathedral and my consolation ministry work and also in the crisis care work. i do a lot of intervention work. >> and i'm not sure all people were prepared as your grandmother who had her dress picked out. for others, the time of death is terrifying. very much. >> in terms of bringing them something -- well, some kind of hope, is that part of the ministry? >> yes, it's part of the ministry. people talk about the funeral and when they come to the group, it's interesting. it's almost 50/50. some have a hard time going into the church where the funeral was after wards. even though they went there for many, many years. they do sense that it's a

special place because it's where their loved one died. it's a very -- >> and i think that this concept of your relationship with god growing, your relationship with god is not like when you were a child. i think when you go through grief, people get a sense that -- >> they grow up fast. >> this is what i thought about god when i was little. >> yeah, like a figure in the sky. >> now, it's different. i see now, through my marriage, through my kids being borned, it's a continual relationship with god and my church and. this is another piece of that. >> i really appreciate your ministries. it's a very important ministry for us and our church. i wish you great blessings as you do that. we're going to be ending in a

few minutes. could you, very briefly look at the camera and tell some people out there who maybe are going through something like this, some words of hope. >> i would say, in san francisco, in particular, we have the 25 weekly losses due to traumatic separation due to homicide, suicide, infant death and car accidents and more deaths. love really is the question and love is the answer. >> how would you address someone? >> as you're beginning this new year and if you have had a loss recently, it's going to be difficult to begin 2012, you know, realizing you're leaving your loved one behind that died last year or years before that.

there's hope, you know, because the reality is, your loved one is still with you and you're carrying them with you in a new way. >> those are wonderful words of hope. >> if you want more information on the ministries, go to their website. we're very happy to have you two with us. thank you, very much. ,,,,

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