welcome to 2012. we're looking at the let's look back at the year's past and the latest themes and see what's coming so we'll look for you to give us insightful commentary on the religious scene. i'm glad you're wearing your new years finery in the spirit of the new year. >> trying to. >> let's talk about religious themes of the year's past. start us off?

>> well, i think that this past year, probably "time" hit the nail. they said that the protestor was the persons of the year. i think that, you know, the protests in different countries, all of that was going on and then the occupy movement to seattle and oakland and throughout the country, america, asia, africa, we were also impacted in the church community. that was because of the great inequality that exists in the world. we tried to address it as others have. i don't think it was necessarily the leaders. some may have, you know, in the civil right's movements, you had the clear leaders. you had the dr. kings.

the relationship wasn't as clear, but the goals of dealing with the injustice and the concern was very much present. >> you're making a little bit of a link as if there were a wave from the arab spring. when it jumped to the ocean, it was the occupy movement. you were a part of that. i haven't been down in the occupy movement. >> i think that san francisco and oakland had active clergy involved. again, i don't know if the goals were as clear as it was in civil right's movement. a poll was taken and 44% of people in the country were for the movement and 46% against. and 59% were in favor of the message. that's can we deal with the gap between the rich and the poor.

it's getting greater. that's what the clergy are concerned about. when you talk about justice, it meant economic justice. let my people go, the promised land, the milk and honey. that meant something here in the present. that's part of the message. whether we're, well, muslim, christian or jewish, or whatever, i think we're concerned about the hear and now -- here and now. that's why we were in the movement, we supported with prayer, well, with, you know, meeting with people and just being there. i think that's part of what we tried to do. i don't think we were the leaders. some were. some were arrested. some particularly in seattle. a number of clergy were arrested. >> and you were a participant. right ( --

>> we're glad you're there. stay with us, we're talking to reverend swisher.

we just talked about the occupy movement. we're talking with reverend swisher. a second big point? >> i think gay marriage. >> i thought we were done with that. >> well, a lot of the

denominations haven't been inclusive. they've tried to stay split on the issue. the methodist church, my denomination is not inclusive. karl sandburg was asked what was the ugliest word in the english language and he said, exclusive, religion and race and gent -- gender and sexual identity. >> within the main line protestant churches, at least. this idea keeps coming back. not only gay marriage, but the ordination of transgender people. in the church, they decided the local option. that's the san francisco county -- they wish to ordain someone, on their terms, regardless ofth licks or whatever, that doesn't

mean that a presbyterian would need to admit that person. i thought that was huge. >> it was. >> hundreds and hundreds of churches took the opportunity. hundreds say, you're not christian enough and we want to leave. it gets down to property and it fractures the sense of it. do you have predictions as to which way this is going to play out? >> everyone hopes and thinks that everyone will be welcomed at the table and to be able to come as they are. it doesn't seem like it's clear. in 2007 -- in 2011, it didn't seem to be. you mentioned the presbyterian church. some wanted to leave and split because of it.

the others went through the battle. sometime, you have to be willing to take the risk and dial the line. those of us who are involved in a justice movement, whatever it's for, always believe that we'll eventually prevail. if you're concerned about justice, you want everyone welcome at the table. >> right, and to be there. >> another theme? >> well, inter faith. will we work together with the muslims. with christians? with jews? mormons and christian scientists and muslims and catholics and rabbis. i think that's extremely important.

again, we, i think we sometimes approach religion with, this is my way and the only way. if we can break down the barriers, there's a possibility of doing a lot of things in the world around us. we have, in our church, we talk about making disciples of jesus christ for the transformation for the world. whatever position you're in, the transformation of the world that people may have access to resources that people may have opportunities, whether it's an education or housing, these kind of doors. religion has it also. >> if you have an active group where mormons and jews and christians are there, where do you talk about this? how do you broach all of this?

>> it's very interesting. i think that a key is that we respect one another. that's where it begins. you have to feel that everyone has a voice. you're not there to argue and prove that one is more severe than the other. >> each religion has truth claims, our way is the way and your way may be a way, but not the way. how do you deal with that reality at the table? >> it's not always easy. i think that at the premise is that you respect and that the premise is that you love one another. that's a take off point.

i think that's, well, those are universal truths. sometimes, it's referred to as the golden rule. i think that's a way of trying to relate without insisting on, look, i got it all. i have the truth. >> and so, are you able to work on social programs or is this theological or food pantries? >> how inner faith -- this community in the bay area -- where do you start? >> you the it through an out reach effort. for those who are the least, the last, the -- lost, the left out. particularly around the past season of christmas, there are ways to reach the homeless and those without.

you can be united on those points. that's one way of coming together. everyone's hungry. there's always hungry people and homeless people and people who need help. you know, so, i think that's one of the ways we try to work together. theologically, i don't think there's much discussion. sometimes, i think we do talk about our differences. i think we want to be united more. we'll emphasize the differences. sometimes, it would be good to talk about the theological differences more. i haven't found it as much in the two years i've been in this community and. i found it in the other bay area parts. >> the theological part is where they're trying to find the footpaths. if you're a member of a congregation somewhere of a

different faith, you'll probably start with a social program or something in common you can do on a community base. >> i think so. >> where we are is coming after break. we'll be back.

we're here in honor of the new year. we asked him the major themes of 2011. he shared what it was like to be on the ground in the occupy movement in the religious perspective on that and then, we got pluralism. religion isn't the coming thing? >> well, i think that it's a major concern. do we survive in this coming year? not only survive, but thrive, as congregations, as churches, as communities of faith. because, i mentioned to you earlier. 4000 churches close every year and a thousand new churches come around. that's the great loss in

numbers. we all know we're aging. we don't speak to the larger communities for various reasons. i think harve cox coined the phrase, the secular city. i think it started with the enlightenment and progress and technology. a lot of that has been great. we don't want to go back to the dark ages. the reference point went to the sacred, the devine. how do we reach people when we seem like we're talking to a foreign language to folks. >> if we throw out the science and talk about the avenues of dialogue within all of the merging technology and in all of this. i would come back and say, what's, why have a worshiping congregation.

why be part of a worshiping congregation. hasn't this all passed by and left the old ideas and myths holding the bag? >> i think that's a challenge. i think, what i feel that congregations offer is a place of community and a place of what it's been described as home and help, and healing. out reach. also, small groups in which you can cultivate some of the things we still do believe in. that's prayer and bible studies. other sacred sects of that denomination and religion. we have a lot of morality from that and ethics and beliefs from the religious community. spiritual. some say we're spiritual and

we're not religious. the religion part of it is the part that can support the spirit. a lot of people say, i'm spiritual, but not religious. they don't have a community to cultivate that spiritual. we talked about the disciplines of the spirit. that means commitment and prayer and having a place where you can focus and learn about what it is to believe and what it is to be, as we used to say, faith without works is dead. you need the faith and you need the works. a community faith challenges you and brings those checks and balances. it helps cultivate a spirit. >> well, i think that it was that different denominations were carriers. i remember when we had the father parrish at the greek

orthodox church in oakland. the greek festivals had an identity of the world view. i think that was also true of berkeley on the flats. there's an old blue and white norwegian church. they only spoke norwegian. it carried that. now, those streams are sort of running into a more secular diverse thing. i'm wondering, religion and faith as a cultural identity that tells you where you are. when you leave a church, where do you get that? more, where do you meet people at different walks of life. do you have profound thoughts on where this is going to go? >> well, thomas freeman, the new york columnist, they have a

book out called "that used to be us." they talk about the things we used to be good at, education and we used to be good at opening our doors to immigrants and having diversity. we used to be in the infrastructure and all of that. it's all in jeopardy. then, they mentioned the things we needed to face in the future. that is, it's about globalization and technology. it's about the deficits that we run in terms of government and state and city. when we look at the church, we look at what do we used to do and what will we do in the future. those are pillars we're strong at. you mentioned the cultural identity. you mentioned the community of

sharing, fellowship of out reach. how do we adjust to the change of where the reference is no longer to the sacred, that's where the major challenges are that we face. can we get people interested in the devine dimension? some say they will. there's no, sometimes, community that does that. that's what the church can still offer. >> yeah, the community of the sacred. and culturally. i asked kids in sunday school, they say heaven is up and hell is down. i say, yeah, it's a round globe and you're in china, which way is up? we're bound by these medieval ideas of up and down. they're 16th century daunting ideas. you're raising, it's retaining retaining the ache -- sacred in

a group that says, i don't need this group to tell me what's right. >> part of that is true. the effectiveness is when you can do things lab rattily. >> we have a number of people working back in the booth for us on this time. we'll give it back to them and see you in a few minutes. map

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we have a few themes we want to talk about. one is the mayan calendar and the end of time.

what do you think? >> well, i've never been too much into it. i do believe when you look at that, we always think of doom and gloom, the hope from the christian perspective is that it's joy. the bridegroom is coming. i think we never look at the end of time as something as a time of rejoicing and there's going to be a party. i think that's a good way to look at it. there's joy instead of the end of time. >> i can't get there. i kind of like it here. i think that the mayans, they finished one wheel and didn't get a chance to do the other. time, i don't think that time is linear and is going to end in 2012. >> well, i agree. i have the others who come with

the other message, the "left behind" kind of thing. >> that's a realization that it's not sustainable, that we can't consume everything in all of this. human anxiety. talk about your parrish a little bit. >> i'm at st. marks united methodist church and i've been there two years. this is my 39th year in ministry. this is the first year to go to a large congregation and even being an associate pastor at gly, we had thousands. and then, my first church is the same one i've had. we have 40 to 50 members. great at out reach and fellowship and hospitality. i think we still need to grow in terms of numbers and in

terms of spiritual dropment. --development. we have a great bible study. people come and i want more of that to happen. 86% of the people in the country have a bible in their homes. how many read it and know what's in it? >> it's important that everyone who is part of the community at my church have understanding of the bible and the scripture. st. marks united methodist. >> sunday, 10:30 every sunday morning. i had someone show up this past sunday at 10:00 from south africa. i don't know how they got there, they just came by the church. there's four churches along the road. they happened to take us and asked what time is service and they stayed and seemed to be engaged. >> so, if you're going to hear

reverend ron preach, you may have to go by a few other churches. how about the roman catholic's come home campaign. >> they're reaching 250,000 people. attendance has gone up. they're running the campaign through the month of january. so, i'll see how they do. i think that we protestants need something. >> and some longing and an invitation to come home. >> go out and find a religious community and give it a chance. in 2012, you'll be more blessed. happy new year to you, brother. good to work with you. 11 years, we've been here doing this. blessed new year, we'll see you again for mosaic.