>> schieffer: today on face the nation, word has reached us that legendary mike wallace died overnight, we will hear from his friend and colleague morley safer and turn to religion and politics on this passover and easter week. is religion playing a bigger role in this year's campaign than usual? archbishop timothy nolan of new york says no, and speaks out on the president's intentions to cover contraceptive costs in his healthcare plan, even for catholics. are you good with that? >> no. schieffer: and what about the candidate's religions? >> there may be reasons not to vote for mitt romney as president of the united states that he is mormon cannot be one of them. >> schieffer: then we will turn to our panel, richard land of the southern baptist convention.

>> let's stop the hypocrisy of one party, the religion left, religious left of the democratic party -- >> schieffer: andrew still van of newsweek, rabbi david wolpe of sinai temple in los angeles, luis cortez of esperanza, and our new feature, the google plus hangout. this is face the nation. captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning, again, welcome to face the nation, we are beginning this morning with the news that mike wallace died overnight. mike was 93. he had been ill for many years. his colleague and his friend morley safer went -- >> he was what.

>> with you. >> why? >> really, when you brought it down to low-grade. >> you demanded special treatment. >> you needed money. >> it is almost an embarrassment, sir, to hear this from you. >> what did they want you to do why are you so reluctant. >> for half a century he took on corrupt politicians, scam artists and bureaucratic bum blerz. >> come on out. >> you don't want to talk to me? >> his visits preceded by the four dreaded words, mike wallace is here. >> i don't understand. >> they must be ashamed of something. >> what is this? this is 60 minutes. >> you are a crook. >> doggone i wish they didn't say that, though. >> i want to read you some things. >> mike took to heart the old reporter's pledge to comfort the afflicted and inflict the comfortable. >> it is contemptible. >> i would like you get out of here. >> i am nosy and insistent. >> so insistent there were very few 20th century icons who did

not submit to a mike wallace interview. he lectured vladimir putin, the president of russia on corruption. >> to get anything done, money. >> lectured i can't say sar arafat on violence. >> there are palestinians who like to kill you. >> he asked the ayatollah khomeini he was crazy. >> and he calls you, imman, forgive me, his words, not mine a lunatic. >> he traveled with martin luther king. >> a large segment of white society is more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity. >> he remains my hero. >> so what? >> he grappled with luis farrakhan. >> i think you should keep quiet, remain strong. >> and interview malcolm x shortly before his assassination. >> i probabl am a dead man already. >> i came here with a belief -- >> he was no strange tore the white house.

interviewing his friends, the reagans. >> why hasn't this job weighed as heavily on you as it has on some other occupants of this oval office. >> well, mike, i don't know what the answer to that would be. well, maybe none of them had a nancy. >> there he was with john kennedy, with lyndon johnson. >> so you think that next time around -- >> with jimmy carter, even with eleanor roosevelt. >> a good many people hated your husband. they even hated you. >> yes. a great many do still. >> make a noise. >> but all of those remarkable characters. >> come on, mike. >> leonard bernstein. >> johnny carson. luciano paparazzi situate. >> janis joplin, tina turner, salvador dally, barbra streisand. >> you would love to control -- >> absolutely, are you kidding .. >> what are you trying to prove?

>> nothing. >> his take no prisoners style became so famous he even spoofed it with comedian jack benny. >> i am not going! i am not answering anything! >> it is hard to believe, but when mike was born in 1918, there wasn't even a radio in most american homes, much less tv. >> i was a pretty good kid. i was an over achiever and i worked very hard, played a hell of a fiddle. >> the university of michigan where his parents hoped he would become a doctor or lawyer he got hooked instead of radio. and by 1941, mike was the announcer on the greenhorn net. >> ride with another thrilling adventure. the greenhorn net strikes again. >> the family didn't know what to make of it, and, an announcer? >> and soon the hardest working announcer in broadcasting. >> hello, i am mike wallace with

real news. >> hello, everybody, hello. >> when television arrived in the 1950's, mike was everywhere. >> variety shows, game shows, dramas, commercials. >> it is procter & gamble's golden -- >> good evening, i am mike wallace, the show is night beat. >> there was an interview show called night beat, first broadcast in 1956, that mike remembers fit him like custom-made brass knuckles. >> what do you know about that? who in the united states is qualified? what kind of people are your friends? >> we decided let's ask the irreverent, the abrasive, who gives a damn questions. >> some like labor leader mike quill had never been spoken to that way. >> i am ready any time you want to repeat the stupid question. >> neither his mobster mickey cowan. >> you killed at least one man. >> 60 minutes, volume 1, number

one. >> so when 60 minutes was born in 1968 mike wallace brought with him his persona and contributed 40 years worth of knows since, impertinence and, of course, a drama. >> now wait just a moment. >> hold it a minute, goddamn it. >> mike loved to mix it up, with producers, editors, even his fellow correspondent. >> i mean, we were colleagues and competitors at the same time, when i wanted to do a story and you wanted to do a story and it is the same story -- >> and somewhat. >> i would come to the office next day and you are out of town doing the story. >> but beneath the competent, even cocky exterior, mike had his demons. >> three times over the years, he was treated for severe depression, revealed to me a few years back that he once tried to end it all with an overdose of sleeping pills. >> did you try to commit suicide? >> i have never said this before.

>> i tried. >> there are those who think that things to his wife mary, mike mellowed a bit in recent years. >> hello? >> but as the spectre of retirement bore down, mike fought it with customary defines. >> defy answer. >> do you feel it is time to pack it in it a lit bit and -- >> and reflect about what? >> reflect. .. what am i going to reflect about? >> 65 years for mike's first appearance from camera a world war ii film for the navy -- >> what are you waiting for, sailors. >> to his last television appearance. >> do you think people are going to believe you? >> a 60 minutes interview with roger clemens, the baseball star tried to fight off accusations of steroid use. >> and never anabolic steroids? >> never. >> 65 years.

>> it is strange but for such a tough time his all-time favorite interview was the one with another legend, pianist had myrrh horowitz. >> so for the up peent time we dust off the footage of the two of them forces of nature both, sly, manic, egos rampant, for mike, a red, white and blue kind of guy, horowitz played the stars and stripes forever. >> it almost brought tears to the toughest guy on television. >> astonishing what you learn and feel and see along the way. that's why a reporter's job as you know, is such a joy. >> morley safer talking about his friend mike wallace, and there will never be another one

quite like him. he died last night about 8:00 o'clock day-care center in new haven, connecticut, where he has lived in recent years. his family was with him, mike was a great friend and a mentor to me. he even gave me a compliment once and he was one of the real pioneers in television journalism. we are all going to miss him. we will be back with our interview with the archbishop of new york, cardinal anthony dolan.

as we were planning our broadcast this morning on religion and politics in america, one of the first people we went to was the cardinal timothy dolan, the archbishop of new york. as you are going to see, it was a lively conversation. >> happy'se easter and passover.

>> let me start with this. how would you define the state of religion in america today? >> good. i think religion is vibrant. it is growing, the stats show us, as you can imagine, particularly as to what the data shows us about the catholic faith in the united states the numbers are up, the commitment of the people is strong, that doesn't mean, bob, we don't have a lot of problems, we do, and we bishops, as any other pastor have to treat those problems realistically so we do have people leaving, we do have people disenchanted but in general it is good news. >> schieffer: how would you rate the state of the catholic church right now? you have been through some really tough times with some of the -- >> we have, we have. yes, the last ten, 12 years have been very tough for the catholic church, the eyes of faith, though we always know difficulties can purify us and strengthen us and we are seeing that. for instance we have a slight increase in vocations to the priesthood and the young men coming in will say, you know, it is really the tough times and it

is really the scandals that almost inspired my vocation, because i saw the need for virtuous, hardworking priests in a catholic church that is reinvigorated and i want to be part of that renewal, so god can always bring good out of bad and i think that is what we are seeing in the church. >> schieffer: i want to talk a little politics with you, your em negligence. >> i am not surprised. >> schieffer: back in 1960, when john kennedy became the first catholic president, he made a speech during the campaign, because he said flatly, .. he wanted people to know and he wanted to assure them he thought there was a separation between church and state. here is -- here is the way he put it. >> i believe in an america with the separation of church and state is absolute, where no catholic sell lot would tell the president should he be catholic how to act and no property substantial minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote. now, people in both parties have referred back to that over the

years as a good definition of church and state, but during this campaign year, one of the republican candidates, rick santorum, said this about it. >> if i had the opportunity to read the speech, i almost threw up. he should read the speech. in my opinion it was the beginning of the secular movement of politicians to separate their faith from the public square. and he threw faith under the bus in that speech. >> schieffer: your eminence, where do you think the line should be between church and state? is there, should there be a separation? >> you bet there should be. you bet there should be should. that is good, that is separation between church and state is good, not only for the united states it is also good for the church. i try myself and give me a second to explain this, bob, i find myself believe it or not agreeing with both of them, i cheered what john kennedy said, he was right, and i would find myself among those applauding that speech.

that hav having been said i woud say senator santorum had a good point because unfortunately what john kennedy said in september of 1960 to the baptist ministerial alliance in texas has been miss interpreted to mean that separation of church and state .. also means achieve advantage, a wall between one's faith and one's political decisions, between one's moral focus and between the way one might act in the political sphere sphere, i don't think john kennedy meant that and recent scholarship has shown john kennedy was very inspired by vision, by character, by virtue, let's call that faith, let's call that morals. so i don't think john kennedy meant achieve advantage between faith and politics .. he did mean a wall between state and church, and i would applaud that one, but i would agree with senator santorum that unfortunately that has been misrepresented to mean that faith has no place in the public

square. that, i would, with senator santorum would say is a misinterpretation not only of what senator kennedy meant but what the american genius is all about. >> schieffer: do you think there is too much religion in politics today? >> no, i don't think so at all. i think politics, just like business, just like education, just like art, just like culture, only benefits when religion, when morals, when faith has a place there. i think the american -- the public square in the united states is always enriched whenever people approach it, when they are inspired by their deepest held convictions, and on the other hand, bob, i think the public square is impoverished when people might be coerced to put a piece of duct tape over their mouth, keeping them from bringing their deepest held convictions to the conversation. >> schieffer: well, certainly there is no duct tape on your mouth when the president came out and let bit known that his healthcare plan included

catholic institutions having to buy birth control pills for their employees in churches, in schools, and in hospitals. i want to ask you about that, because i interviewed the vice president last week and he told me that it all had been resolved. here is what he said. >> on substance, the president ended up exactly where he intended, where it began. which was that, one, every woman in america should be able to have insurance coverage for birth control if she so chooses and that the catholic church and other churches should not have to pay for it. or provide it. >> schieffer: for the record is that what you advised the president? >> yes. but that is also where the president was in the front end. >> schieffer: so i guess the question i would ask you, your eminence, are you good with that? >> no. although i appreciate very much the vice president. he has been helpful and i have

been benefitted from his counsel and i look forward to talking to him again so i am glad he weighed in on it but i would disagree with him, it hasn't helped us much, bob, because we still have to pay for it, because most of us are self insured and we are still worried not just about our institutions but also the individuals, so we still find ourselves in a very tough spot, and we are still going to continue to express what we believe is just not a religious part of you but a constitutional part of you that america at her best when the government doesn't force a citizen or a group of citizens in a religious creed to violate their deepest held moral convictions. >> do you steam to agree with what the vice president is saying that the president didn't really change his position? >> yes, i think so. although i am a little confused, because the president told me his position, his conviction is that the government would do nothing to impede religion, and he was very gracious, and

especially complimenting the catholic family in the united states in their work for healthcare, charity and education, and he would say, i don't want this administration to do anything to impede that, it is tough for me to see how the strangling hhs regulation dogs anything but that. >> schieffer: let me ask you this. do you ever worry that sometimes -- do you like to be careful about getting too involved in politics? i know this is a new poll out that says 60 percent of catholics say churches and other houses of worship should just totally steer clear of politics. >> yes. i do worry about that, bob. and this is a good place for me to remind everybody, we didn't ask for this fight, i don't enjoy it at all, i wish i was out here on face the nation answering other questions and you probably do too. we didn't ask for the fight, and so we are not going, but we are not going to back away from it. what i say is this, yeah, i don't think religion should be too involved in politics, but i also don't think the government and politics should be overly involved in the church, and that

is our problem here. you have got a dramatic, radical intrusion of a government bureaucracy into the internal life of the church, that bothers me, so hear me say, may i would like to back away from this, i have other things to worry about and bigger fish to pry than this. our problem is the government is intruding into the life of faith and into the church that they shouldn't be doing. that is our read on this. >> schieffer: your eminence this is wound to come up in the campaign, bound to come up in the campaign, do you think catholics would have a problem with a mormon president? because -- >> no. i hope not. we have been through that a couple of months ago, bob, the jewish anti-defamation league was kind enough to invite me to address their annual meeting and i was on in order to and he said, tell us a couple of ways that maybe the jewish community and the catholic community could cooperate better in the united states. and i brought this issue up. i said, listen, everybody, we catholics, and we jews have felt

the sting of the other side, and now one of the ways we can cooperate is to see that religious prejudice, religious bigotry doesn't enter the campaign. i said, there may be reasons not to vote for mitt romney as president of the united states that he is a mormon cannot be one of them. and the jewish community stood up and gave a standing ovation. i think -- i don't think catholics should have any problem voting for a mormon at all. >> schieffer: one final question, what is your greatest challenge now as a catholic leader. >> well, the greatest challenge is to -- in a way, it is the same as it was that first easter sunday morning, to try to show that god, religion, the church is on the side of life and light and freedom and hope. that is what -- that is the biggest challenge, that life giving, liberating ennobling uplifting message of the bible, of morality, of the church, of jesus, that is our challenge,

bob, and in a world -- i mean you are on the front hines, you have to report bad news all the time, most of the time we want to cry when we see the news, because there is so much darkness and tragedy and sadness, so the greatest challenge i got is try to preach the good news and try to show that the light and life and promise of the gospel always trumps the bad news we hear all the time. there is a great religious challenge. >> schieffer: your eminence it is a pleasure to talk to you this morning. >> thank you, bob, happy easter to you and our audience today. >> schieffer: thank you, sir. and we will be back in one minute with more on religion in america, stay with us. >> this portion of face the nation is sponsored by t. rowe price. do something different with this year's ira.

>> schieffer: when john kennedy made that speech to the baptist convention in 1960 that we just talked about with cardinal dolan, that was not the end of it, the topic continued to generate controversy and a week before the election, kennedy came on face the nation and talked about it some more. how even if america was overwhelmingly catholic, he said, he would oppose making catholicism the country's official state religion a as was the case in so many european countries. on this easter sunday, that is our face the nation flashback. >> the queen is healed, is the head of the state of england and some of the scanned nairn countries where the lutheran church is the official state church but here in the united states, episcopalians, jews, catholics, methodists, all of us happen to believe that we do not want an official state church, i

would be opposed to it, if 99 percent of the population were catholic i would still be opposed to it, i do not want civil power combined with religious power and that is my view, some other person holds another view or another catholic in another country holds another view that is fine, i am committed as a part of personal deep conviction, separation. >> schieffer: kennedy went on to win that election, of course but the conversation about the separation of church and state continues, and we will be talking about it some more on this easter sunday, with a panel of people who think about it a lot. richard land, the president of the southern baptist convention ethics and religious ethnic commission, luis cortez, of esperanza, rabbi david wolpe of sinai temple in los angeles and recently voted america's leading pulpit rabbi, sally quinn, founder and head of the

washington post on faith web site, and newsweek magazine's andrew sullivan, who recently wrote that magazine's cover story, christi, christianity in crisis, that is next. stay with us. >> this portion of face the nation is sponsored by ing.

some of you are leaving us now, for those of you stag with us we will come back on page 2 with more on religion in america. ,,,,,,,,,,

>> schieffer: and we are back now with our panel, well let's start with you dr. land of the southern baptist convention. you heard cardinal dolan talk about the separation of church and state. do you think there should be and where is the line? >> well, absolutely. and baptists that is our unique contribution to the reformation is separation of church and state, roger williams said for any, any human being to coerce civil interfere with another human being's relationship with his or her god is soul rape and we believe that, we believe absolutely in the separation of church and state to protect the church from the state, roger williams said that there needed to be a wall of separation between the wilderness of the state and the garden of the church to protect the garden of the church from the intrusion of the state. i think that is the thing that has changed since 1960 is that in 1960, the concern was whether

there was going to be an established church. i don't think anyone is concerned about an established church today, but there are many of us who are concerned about government intrusion on the free exercise of faith by people in -- who have religious convictions, who run contrary to what the government wants them to do. and separation of church and state are separation of two institutions it never was intended to mean the separation of religiously informed morality from public policy, my personal hero martin luther king, jr. was a baptist preacher, and he said he was in that birmingham jail because he refused to obey an unjust law and it was an unjust law that didn't qualify, didn't coincide with the moral law of god. >> schieffer: let me go to rabbi wolpe, what is your idea of the separation, rabbi? >> well, i think that it is true that jews have a certain perspective on this as minority traditions do, because generally, when religion seeps into the public sphere it is not

our own, and so the separation of church and state in part is a protection for minority traditions. having said that, i think that everybody has to understand that if you believe that the creator of the universe or the animating spirit of the universe or however you conceive of god, wants you to do a certain thing, you can't segregate that inside your soul from your public pronouncements and your beliefs. the key separation is when you have to make public policy and then you have to make arguments that are acceptable to all different traditions and no tradition. so the real separation is not when your conscience or your pronounce.s or beliefs, it is in the arguments you have to make that will be acceptable to everyone else, nobody is allowed to say, my faith is the trump card, and, therefore, in public policy you have to do what i say, because this is what i believe. >> schieffer: luis cortez,

reverend cortez, where do you see the line? >> well, i believe the line needs to be in a space that allows people to take their faith and put it into the public sphere, and it doesn't mean you will oppress other people with it or enenforce other people with it, but people will be allowed to share it, so my concern is, in following with richard and rabbi, is that more and more we are being told that don't -- we are being told not to bring our faith into the public sphere, as if it is a disqualifier for public discourse, which it isn't and shouldn't be. so my concern is that every year, as time goes by, the rights of the religious are being eroded under the guise of church and state. >> schieffer: andrew sullivan, you wrote this piece in newsweek, an extraordinary piece, called crisis in christianity. what did you take away from what you just heard the cardinal say? >> well, i -- my view is very

similar to what rabbi wolpe said, which is i think our ability to be reasonable in politics and faithful in religion and to keep those two things separate have atrophied to the great disadvantage of religion, and what has happened since 1960s ask that organized groups like southern baptist council and other religious groups have, in fact, become so consciously political, they have become fused with one political party, the republican party, a party who is now having the majority and defined by a particular religious faith, evangelicalism or far right catholic hierarchy, and that is making many people feel, faith and jesus is about politics and power and partisanship, in ways of turning offer an entire generation. the biggest growth in any belief sector in this country in the last ten years has been atheism and the younger generation can

see these religious people wielding political power, endorsing essentially political candidates and fusing themselves with one political party, and picking fight deliberate delibo prepare on this fight with president obama on a political ground, i think they are mud diagnosis the real radical truth of jesus is that we will gain power by giving it up, that we do not seek in the public sphere to have any power but to be powerless and jesus was absolutely apolitical, anti-political, given the chance to be political, he is only on the cross, because he refused politics. >> schieffer: i am going let dr. land respond to that in a minute but i want to get around the table first. sally, you have been monitoring this with your own faith, blog and a phage in the western post. sum up what we just heard here and what this is all about. >> i think that separation of church and state is in the eye of the beholder. and i think if you look at not

only what is going on in politics, you will get cardinal dolan to say one thing about his view of separation of church and state and we have several different views at this table. we say we have separation of church and state, and yet on our coin it says on god we trust, the pledge of allegiance is one nation under god. we have ministers and pastors and senate chaplains who say prayers in the senate. the academy and military academies are very religious and have prayer groups and sometimes mandatory prayer groups. and so those are all not separation of church and state, and yet everyone accepts them. so i think that what i have seen in the last five years and what i see every single day is that whatever your point of view, you might -- i mean there are plenty of people, i don't know whether you all think that we are a christian nation or not, there are plenty of people who are religious who sa seau this is a christian nation and other

people will say, as obama does, this is a nation for all faiths and no faiths, so i think that when you talk about separation of church and state, you are not talking about one thing, you are talking about a lot of different attitudes and opinions. >> schieffer: and we will continue this discussion when we come back.

.. >> schieffer: and we are back more with of our panel. >> andrew sullivan said a couple of things you may want to respond to. >> yes. first of all i don't think we are a christian nation. to me the idea of a christian nation is odd, as an evangelical christian because a country can't be redeemed, i think we are a country that was founded on judeo christian values in an attempt to meld those with enlightened ideas of self-government and gentleman does. >> it shouldn't be a christian

nation and concerning what andrew said, you know, most of the involvement of evangelicals in the public realm has been defensive, it wasn't offensive, we didn't make a bush on demand abortion and strike down the laws against abortion in all 50 states. we didn't seek to erode the expression of the public square by people of faith, and the republican party is not the only party that tries to claim god for themselves i was at the national prayer breakfast when president obama said god was for universal healthcare, and was for his program, and nancy pelosi said jesus supported her program in the house, and bill clinton mentions god and jesus christ more every year he was president than george w. bush did any year he was president, a and his references to god and jesus went up three times during election years. so, please, let's stop the hypocrisy of one party being

welded to one -- the religious left is the democratic party at prayer. >> oh, please. >> first of all, my piece criticized president obama for precisely that thing. i am as opposed to the religious left using jesus to advance their politics as i am opposed -- >> because, in fact the religious right is infinitely more powerful and controls the republican party in the way that the left has nothing like the power and as you know, religious churches are key parts of political campaigns that you can't win the south carolina primary without churches actually running the republican candidate. the fusion -- >> this is no -- >> the evangelical -- >> republicanism is real. >> any fusion between evangelicalism and republicans pales in compare to the point of amnesia to the black churches. >> where do you weigh in on what

you just heard here, rabbi? >> well, i think it is important to understand that, first of all, you can't, as you hear, you can't bleach religion out of the public discourse, you can't do it on the right or left, and also, obviously, the perspectives are going to be skewed by which side you favor, how you see god's place in it. but without making a political judgment, because i don't want to suggest that clergy or political experts, even though we are often pushed to be that, i would say that it is legitimate for churches, synagogues, mosques to push an issue if not a candidate, that is, there are certain issues that are going to strike at the heart of religious belief. if i get up in my synagogue and i don't speak about israel, part of my task as a rabbi is, i mean, has been shirked, that is something that is critical to my community, it is critical to me, it is close to the jewish heart

and should be spoken about even though it has clear political implications. so there are such fractured and divided lines in this, that i don't think these bright divisions are either helpful or accurate. and no matter what political position you take, you will find that you have some religious allies in the position, part of the key, of course, is to stay away from candidates and encouraging certain positions in elections. > but if you believe, you believe things and if you believe things you want to see them enacted in the world. >> schieffer: reverend cortez is there too much religion or not enough? >> i think the question is not a valid, is not even a valid question, in a democracy everybody has a right to choose for themselves what will lead them, what will be their lead, whether it be religion, atheism, environment, whatever issue you

want to be your lead or whatever issues inform you, whatever you want to organize under, you organize under. now, some folks prefer that one group not organize in certain ways. but that is just their preference. as a citizen, i have a right to do as i choose. and one of the conversations that we are having is, andrew stated that the right,, the religious evangelicals are part of only one denomination, of one of the republican party, and that is not true, not totally true, because we have folks, hispanic people wh who will probably not vote for republican leadership this year over the issue of immigration, if romney gets 40 percent or 30 percent of the hispanic evangelical vote i would be shocked, given what he has been doing and saying on the issue of immigration. hispanic people are starting to look at the issue of the environment in a different way, hispanic equals, so, evangelicals, so what andrew is doing is focuses on a 20 or 30

or 40 year period and saying this is what religion in the public sphere and what it should not be. but you really need to look at the broader range and look at the entire history of this country, where black ministers, were black ministers wrong to lead the civil rights? were black ministers wrong or african-american minister wrong to get on their pulpits and say don't vote for this individual because they are opposed to us? i don't think so. i think they have that right. >> they didn't say that. >> they did what jesus did, which is they put christianity in the public square by their personal example, just by living the life of jesus. they marshaled a moral movement, they sought not to seek power, they wanted to show their powerlessness when they were attacked, they stayed nonviolent and that is how jesus transforms the world, not by getting involved in political parties. >> schieffer: getting registered, registered to vote on the right to vote, the right to vote empowered them so now

the majority of sheriffs in alabama and mississippi are african-american. >> martin luther king was marching for the right to register to vote, the march was a right -- the selma march was to vote. it was the right to register to vote, because they had been disenfranchised -- >> that is not associating with one political party. >> but it is about power and about jesus commanded us to be light and one of the ways you are salt and light is to seek to influence government. the abolitionists -- >> give to stay sar what is caesar's. >> and render to god what is god's. >> roman 13 says god is supposed -- that the government is supposed to -- >> >> schieffer: sally quinn, over the years at dinner parties, at forums like this, this is the first time i can recall that sally couldn't get a

word in. >> i think hearing? >> i think you asked, cardinal dolan the right question and i think that is the question, is there too much religion in politics? and michael gerson wrote a piece about it in the washington post several weeks ago, and i think the answer is, yes, there is too much religion in politics, because it is merged into one thing now, and i agree with everyone, that if you are a person of faith, then you derive your morals and your values and your ethics from that faith. you can't separate that out, but what you can do is not use your religion as a way to influence politics and political issues. i think there is just -- what has happened is there is just an enormous amount of hypocrisy, not just on the right but on the left too, where people see that religion is an issue where they can get votes and so they play on it and that is what i think

is the real problem here. is that i think everybody ought to step back. i mean, you know, i think the expression wwjd, what would jesus do, is very apt here, as andrew was pointing out, i don't think that if jesus were running for office he would be up there, you know, waving the flag and saying i am this and i am that and vote for they because of this -- >> so what i am saying is, i think that this is not -- this is not the way it should be, and that people of faith should not use their faith for cynical reasons. >> schieffer: let me let the rabbi in on this too. rabbi. >> i am not going to weigh in on what jesus would do, but i think -- but i do want to say this, which is there is a certain sort of instant impression test that you can use with preachers, there are some people in the clergy who when you see them their first association is political that is right wing

preacher that left wing preacher, that seems to me to suggest that the person is over identified with political causes. your first reaction should be this is person is preaching christianity, judaism, whatever the religion is and yes, they have certain political tendencies because it is difficult to involve in a world which so communicate much is politicized but if your first association with somebody is where they stand on the political spectrum, then that is a leakage of politics into the pulpit that seems to me unhealthy. >> schieffer: let me ask mr. land this, since we are talking about this, rick santorum form, of course, brought the social issues into this campaign. people are saying now that maybe he ought to get out of this race. i know you talked to him. if he asked you, what would you tell him right now? >> first of all i disagree with you about kennedy's speech. i listened to kennedy's speech ten times and read it 30 times and he doesn't understand what kennedy was saying in the speech. timothy dolan had it right, he was saying that there should be

a role but it shouldn't be an institutional role. rick is a good friend, i like rick a lot, he is, you know, i -- said he is remarkably consistent over the years in his speeches that is because he is coming from a world view. and his speeches come out of that world view. i think he has done a remarkable job on a shoestring budget. he has resurrected a political career that was dormant, and as his friend, i would say to him, you know, you ought to seriously consider leaving the race now, in eight years, he will be three years younger than romney is now, but, you know, running for president is a very personal decision, when to get out is a very personal decision, and he is going to have to make that. >> schieffer: well, you know, i could go on with this all of easter day, but we seem to have run out of time here. thank you all for a very fascinating but also to me a very enlightening discussion. and we will be back in a moment with a look at our google plus hangout. ,,,,,,,,,,,,

cbs news and google have been embarked on a new partnership and we are going to be conducting google hangouts from time to time to connect people

in every corner of the country to talk about topics related to campaign 2012. we held our first one last week, and asked a group of internet savvy people how religion is getting along in this time of a communications revolution. did we find out some interesting stuff. here is -- >> what is going on with religion these days in the age of the internet? >> i would say it is actually thriving. i think that especially evangelicals, christians in general pick up forms of new technology and they run with it. >> part of the thing we are talking about is just not connect ago congregation or a set of like minded individuals one day a week but how do we do that seven days a week? so i think it kind of creates this shift from the mega church to what we call a gig ga church concept of staying connected to these mobile devices .. many jews and christians weren't walking in brick and more tan institutions so this is how we

could bring jesus so where we were. >> not only to when we have services going on but for things that would not be typical, we are basically running ads on people who are searching for naked ladies in a way to connect with someone in the privacy of their home or business when their motives or their thought processes may not be all that pure, we are able to kind of help provide what we feel like is a much better solution and better answer. people who may have sort of dropped out of the jewish community or felt they were pushed out of the jewish community have happened upon us this is the beauty of social net working and the viral nature of it. >> is it having any kind of an impact on our politics? >> we are finding that faith in the christian community does have quite a bit of impact on politics. the next generation, though, is less concerned about republican versus democrat. they are more willing to reach kind of across the aisle and try to say how do we enact change whether that comes through the government, law or how do we

just enact change outside of that? as martin luther king used to say i would rather be governed by a wise turk than a stupid christian. >> i think whether it is religion or politics, technology just allows us to be more democratic with a lower kc, it is much more participatory and allowing for conversations, people who used to not have a microphone now have one. >> schieffer: to watch the whole hangout, go to our face the nation page on google plus, i will be right back with some final thoughts. ♪

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>> schieffer: finely today, although human kind has been haggling over the details for he honest, to me, all religions are basically true, at least the western religions that i know about, and the truth they share is that love is more powerful than hate and that we will be happier if we treat others with fairness. i have no answers to the questions that humans have the debated from the beginning live is a god, why does he let bad things happen to good people and where does evil come from? i have no idea. my answer to most religious assertions is perhaps. yet i am a believer, i have always thought, maybe felt is a better word that there was something out there more powerful than we are, but so powerful it is beyond human comprehension. i think that when i see the

butte of a, beauty sunset or the innocence in a baby smile or recognize the things we can't see, a mother's love or the strength that we can sometimes find deep within us when all seems lost. to me, those are the miracles, maybe they are not. but when i think of them in that way, it always gives me hope and makes me happy. thanks for watching. see you next week. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ,,,,,,,,,,