good morning and welcome back. accretive religious thinker and writer and author and a community and in our country so it's great to have him as i guess this morning. dr. matthews. i know some people probably have not read your book 6 people have been over 30 to maybe tell us a little bit of your story or your background i began my adult life as a dominican and a roman catholic church the dominican order and was working there for 34 years and writing theology and so

forth. but the present hope head of the combination of faith came after me and effectively fired me crummy expelled from the quarter after a 34 years but i kept teaching and what from holy names college in oakland where was for 12 years why was the expulsion i called godmother i did know that was a heresy and approved all of the medieval called her mother and then i support woman's organization and i don't condone bay people. it was a list like that that wasn't very impressive. original blessing was the first book that i read of coated it many times why was it so

upsetting for the church and others? i think it starts things over frankly. since the fourth century the church built a lot of edifice on a writ of original sin and side jewish concepts and jesus never heard of it so it's not good theology with its trade empire building if you wanted empire humans will teach a regional 7 in ruins, looted by their here in weather and a fuller not. a result blessing empowers people. so i think it was a basic threat to the institution as it is and gets an think it's absolutely essential to talk about it. now we know universe has been blessed us with the team put 7 billion years without those lessons to wouldn't be here all. an increase in the book got said seven times is good it is

very good. that took blessing means the theological word for goodness. to be are the notion that your blotch on existence to be here. what do you think of adam and eve? it's talking about the fall that he means big make choices that aren't always perfect and not to the jewish to go broke the story will tell you they don't do the original census not in their mind set to but the fall is there and that means to grow into being an adult it's trial and error. it's like learning to walk near two years old. but that doesn't mean you're intrinsically evil. with that theology it sounds sound to me but what happened after the expulsion? i became an episcopal priest because i was writing a

book about a rematch in your work at the time i was fired by the pope and ended it with a chapter on reinventing which will and then i met these young people from england bringing grave in to and i thought it was important to live and writing about making worship more interesting and bring the body back and alcohol up and they said if you're in a visible priest you could run interference and i prayed about it and thought about it and said the pope fired me somewhat to the bishops in san francisco tell them about it and he said go for it there were not doing nearly enough for the young people so for the last 15 years with been doing over 90 of the cosmic masses and ireland lot and it's been very a very

promising to break through. become an episcopal preached there was there a lot of virtual? added to a seminar with a retired professor for about six months have is is home of wrote papers and under the thing about the particular tradition and it took me on board. are going to take a break with been talking to dr. matthew fox please join us a priest prophetess which preacher i think to learn a lot from him.

welcome back been talking to dr. matthew fox and we had done the martin luther king service together for about 12 years in fact your creation spirituality squaws response to a great deal at the beginning of it so tell us about the school and the king celebrations to

have this. the rev. r. vice-president propose the hold idea and it's been a wonderful tradition ever since. and when i left pulling names colleges and my own university of creation spiritual reality of broadway avenue and 22nd street. it flourished for nine years and never the less exciting. oriented to spirituality and practice and social transformation and then made it also experiment in worship called the cosmic mass and then went to your church and together we brought the committee together and honored people in the community to bring them awards for doing good things and it was great. now that i've left my university amity with inner-city high school children trying to reinvent education and the

inner-city. taken the practice we did with the delta was a practical and boiled down to teenagers and it really is working with three programs growing in chicago and with to kids literally who were dropping at a school because they're bored that's where the dropout we have them making tds and movies and learning some basic values that i call the 10 cities like passion committee encourage and integrate these into their films and they get excited about running again. clear commitment to education goes beyond the church into the community and a can of social justice and that's a senior ministry. i've always said that when liberation theology as had a big impact on me and one year earlier that the cardinal sense to me before expelled me i went to latin america and visited

nicaragua during the wars there and visited brazil and this wonderful bishop defending the rain forest. was there for weeks or so and visited the brazilian theologian that was financed that year as well and it also left a priest in the year that i was expelled from the priesthood. because there really has been this strategy from the vatican to get rid of theologians that is interesting to you that i was expelled also the most of the luncheon in germany the catholic priest when he was expelled also. so was the strategy and i read about it in my book.

we've done such broad work award to make sure people have heard some of the great work of the ghetto jew earlier my favorite book sense of the spirit and blessings of the flesh. i think because they've always some times in the body as the evil or wrong her as you said earlier as fallen so badly that we don't see how the body has been blessed but also the spirit sometimes like the in the and agreed it could be sent to the spirit as i interpret it. a " wall street accomplished with a little bit of greed. but nothing comes tumbling down. but rather talk about sins of the flesh like to said from my at the time of the book the great 13th century titian that was silence three the suspect and then three times before u.s. a st. that said sins of the

flesh take your toward god the sins of the spirit taking away from god to their former serious. and i have a number of quotes you have in the future book for a moment christian mystics and what did you read christian myth that mystics. i wrote it because i think the church frankly both process protestant and catholic have done a bad job of keeping us in touch with the mystical tradition for example to my lifetime so many young people i know think that they have to go east to learn the art conditions full of mystics including thurmond and wonderful profound people. and these people get to the essence of religion jesus was domestic and the fact is the

majority of theologians don't know mysticism in the west. mysticism is about our unitive experiences are experiences of god and are tasting that god is good and it's about the heart not just the head to much theology stops with the head and doesn't really hurt. but the mystics bring both together and there's a mystic and all of us recall have is profound experiences but unfortunately i believe most are and as religion in the west is not really articulating this in teaching people how to develop them mystical lives. expect it sits drunk with love explain that. in get high on god in get- duty and you get highlife itself. many say god is life in other

words it's a great joy and a privilege to be here in that arouses of and wonder and gratitude and as you know that's what reverence is all about wrapping of gratitude and wonder and often it takes you to another place. it's a tasting of the spirits. not just information and knowledge but of and reverence. i think all of this program the best cinnamon for mysticism and a taste of the divine and you realize in those moments the life is gratuitous to great gift to be here unthinkable those that aren't here whenever invited in to the senators. with to come back to then the kitchen next book please join us in the next segment.

we've been talking to dr. matthew fox about mysticism and spirituality and what to look again and his other book that has also been on the scene for now called the pope's war and this is probably gone a lot of

press and in fact ecologists the months of expansion of which couldn't be on the show is you're going to roll with the stock at the time for the book. the translated my original question and to italian. quit out the popes or how was it been received what is the actual content? the german translated it into german she wrote me the chance that a repetition cried read the book begins to send my generation was promised that this would never happen again that fascism and never happen again in your proof and it's been coming back and coming back to the church and she said my people have to learn this and let fast. so in many ways it's a sad book about how the catholic church and its hierarchy in the vatican has been taken over the last 40 years of very powerful right wing forces mean liberation and

the legion of christ in the sec's release and the catholic church received complete support from the and it's scary and in the book echoes the that the analysis of the people that they've condemned some wonderful people over 92 theologians in the joint leaders that an imminent but upon the most difficult books and dark and so forth and sad. and many people have written done reviews and say it's a scary book and it is the to of the largest churches in the world to and there is a big shadow there right now but the good news is in the book ends the last quarter of the book is the good news is that i really believe the list. this done this by that i mean a complete reconstruction of the cab of a church as reno it so

that now we can start things all over the third millennium and might not start christianity over not just at the trick with the protestant church to a tinker limping along with all r and i think we need to visions and it's a great thing that the church as large as the catholic church is in such to my is that it's obvious we have to start over is not even worth arguing about so let's go let's return to jesus' teachings that the complex with a mystics are so useful because the summer rise it's so wonderful about justice and compassion and intake. and it's about love in the earth and the future generations. so let's get moving. i'm sure you've been criticized by saying labia the chip under shoulder because you were expelled so what is your response? a number of reviews of printed the book is not

anchorperson molest and how objective it is as they say because i do a lot of foot note sent i worked that hard to the truth is the thing and a better position to tell the truth because and a lot of catholic theologians that are scared frankly everyone's looking over their shoulder. i know one of four catholic priests in the east coast and he tells me fear is everywhere in the clear she even the retired clergy are full of fear these days that's what's happened in the catholic church the last 40 years fear the spread everywhere and it's so sad but i'm not afraid of taking my stand domestic side and i think i'm responsible frankly to blow the whistle it has been costly of scores but as you know we're living through tumultuous times is that just religion that is

failing us that the economics and politics and education-just a big shift of human race from i call the modern to the post modern consciousness and institutions of not caught up so we should critique restitutions with love i talk in the book toward the end toward taking the treasures from the burning building their many treasures in the church as we know it and have known that that should not lost at the same time we don't need the whole building is of traveling with the basilica on tobacco trouble with backpacks honor back the mystics and the profits and the people like gondi that was a question that new christianity so well if he applied it there are some stories < we can carry with us and clearing the wonderful scholarship about who is jesus really was to the words he said unless he did say all that is a

tremendous help and then the movements the women's movement for the women's wisdom back of the civil rights movement and the liberation theology movement which of course was thoroughly condemned police to put so i think it's most christlike movement in the last five years along side of the civil rights movement part of the tragedy. the emphasis on justice the propellant preferential option to the port they're the ones for the running institutions today. greta mentioned a new so prolific you must read a book a year which is tremendous status and the discipline and time to do that? it's about being in love and your love to find the time i get up early women in a book and at that for the morning ticket done but because of the ideas

and and i know the importance of ideas ideas change history in change people and bring people back from the dead. i raised with that passion i have a passion to learn and share with them learning. although ultimately i write for myself by that committee and trying to learn something like i didn't know i knew things are bad and the catholic church and the vatican but i didn't know how bad it was still in wrote the book and that i get depressed and had to stop the the middle of the at this book on the mystics because every generated me and happy again and again and energy to finish the book. passion is the genesis of genius life is about being alive and i think that's what spirituality means. please join us with dr.

matthew fox and spirituality in mysticism also looking at the catholic and protestant churches and issues that we have.

i have hope you've been with us we have learned lot from dr. matthew fox and i want to quote from one of your books. the " they used my side of the book signing at barnes and noble recently. thomas merton the whole world the secretly on fire the stones burning even the stones they burned me. how could a man be still or listened to all things burning and how could a terror to sit with them when all of their silence is on fire. that's could physics today because scientists have said that there are fired light waves

and every atom in the universe to the stones are on fire but of course and agreed that i also think of indians to a luncheon the fire of the stones their sons of the most ancient beings on earth there are elders but there's fire everywhere left in the mirror you're on fire. we have to bring the fire out of one another enlightenment is compassion. and the fire in the belly. the moroccan keeps us with the filing of fire in your belly is the passion again. dr. king's favorite profit was jeremiad i read that because of the fire. the fire that jeremiah had analysis and at times but he still out there proclaiming.

and i think like yourself people sometimes do not hear you in the beginning of your prophetic message german history and then after while people realize there's a real truth there everyone thought dr. king supported was supported a great deal of the '60s but he was not an aim is some people turned against him. good of the same thing happened the rabbi who walked a lot of jewish people and rabbis are really turned him off and said iran enough trouble are you making is visible in this movement to a the next time in their use free prophetic to. and i'm reading some of his books on the profits. and again he learned from king he told his daughter when he came home from marching his daughter was 10 and said was a like daddy and i said i felt my

feet for spring. were coming to an end if you have any final words about other book or your own ministry at this time? did just that it's been a pleasure to serve and i think that that's what's been a theologian and the pastors of about and to lend so much in the process again the right books to learn and the lecture to learn because it's circle and to learn from people the respond to books to come in with questions and new books that i should read and all of this so it is the community project learning together and it is an exciting thing. so why do not in rome this time thanks for joining me. the got and get one of dr. matthew fox is books and think you'll be thrilled reading about spirituality. it goes back for many years and some of his books of his

written in many titles he's addressed and many issues and spirituality. i urge you to do so and thanks for joining us this morning.